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  #151  
Old 08-15-2018, 06:36 PM
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I am a really big fan of this show and often watch an episode a couple of times to catch as much nuance as I can. This thread is such an enhancement to the watching experience, because you all make connections I never do. So thanks.
  #152  
Old 08-15-2018, 07:28 PM
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The post-opening credits scene with Nacho and his father was absolutely heartbreaking.
Was there any meaning in his dad separating the money into 3 stacks?
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Old 08-15-2018, 07:37 PM
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Was there any meaning in his dad separating the money into 3 stacks?
I was wondering the same.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:06 PM
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The post-opening credits scene with Nacho and his father was absolutely heartbreaking.
Yes, it was.

Michael Mando is doing amazing work in a role that is beautifully written; there seems little doubt that tragedy lies ahead for a character who is trying to do the right thing, in so far as that's possible in the life he's fallen into.

ETA: on the three stacks: Hector laid out the money that way when telling Nacho's father what the new 'deal' was he'd have to accept.
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  #155  
Old 08-15-2018, 08:37 PM
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So the father had semi-accepted the deal? I’m fuzzy about it, but I thought he was adamant in his refusal, hence necessitating that Nacho move quickly against Hector.
  #156  
Old 08-15-2018, 08:41 PM
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The Mrs. and I love the tension inherent in the episodes. It's just marvelous to watch. And seeing Gus' darker side was great. That was heavy-duty plastic around that guy's head. No way he was chewing through that.
  #157  
Old 08-15-2018, 09:00 PM
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Nacho's papi was very against it, but had no real choice and knew it so he complied. Nacho was doing his best to get dad out of the mess Nacho put him into but there's no way to force a stroke, all he could do was change the pills and wait, knowing he could let dad out of the deal once Hector was out of the picture. Dad is not letting Nacho off the hook though--that was a pure dee "You started this, now you lay in it" fuck you move with the money. I don't think I've ever seen a better "You are no son of mine" moment, especially one without words. Brutal!
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:03 PM
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I think Nacho was stupid in picking up the evidence right then. And stupid for throwing it off the bridge. He could have just melted the container in his house or something.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:44 PM
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Nacho's papi was very against it, but had no real choice and knew it so he complied. Nacho was doing his best to get dad out of the mess Nacho put him into but there's no way to force a stroke, all he could do was change the pills and wait, knowing he could let dad out of the deal once Hector was out of the picture. Dad is not letting Nacho off the hook though--that was a pure dee "You started this, now you lay in it" fuck you move with the money. I don't think I've ever seen a better "You are no son of mine" moment, especially one without words. Brutal!
I took it as such also—until I heard “Mijo”.

I still thought there was some reason Nacho felt there was imminent danger of his dad being killed.

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Old 08-15-2018, 09:57 PM
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I didn't think Nacho specifically feared for his dad's life--he just felt ashamed for getting his law abiding, honorable father involved in the nasty shit he does for the Salamanca's. Nacho has way more of a conscience than he'd be comfortable admitting to. And dad is pissed and giving him one hell of a spanking, but there's a lot of love there on both sides.
  #161  
Old 08-15-2018, 10:33 PM
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So the father had semi-accepted the deal? Iím fuzzy about it, but I thought he was adamant in his refusal, hence necessitating that Nacho move quickly against Hector.
He picked up the money that Hector laid out just to placate Nacho, who had practically begged him to do so. But he never really accepted the deal. In fact, I got the impression that the bills he laid out for Nacho were the exact same bills Hector had left. He never had any intention of spending it, and had not touched it since.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:56 PM
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Am I the only one who recalls there being a feeling of urgency, that Nacho had to move up the timetable and get rid of Hector ASAP or his dad was going to fight back and get himself killed?
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:17 PM
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I'm sure he felt that the longer it went on the more likely dad would get into it with Hector, but I didn't get any solid hint that the clash was imminent.
  #164  
Old 08-16-2018, 09:44 AM
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I rewatched the plastic bag scene, and it's pretty obvious that it wouldn't be hard to film. The whole plastic bag part that you see on film is under 2 minutes long, and the closeups on Arturo with the bag on his head are quite short. They could just put a plastic bag on him and take it off between takes and/or have a hidden tube that they push air into. He's not going to be hurt by half a minute of breathing recycled air, most people can hold their breath that long. For the longer cut, long shot scenes, like when Gus is talking to Nacho, he's not in frame enough that they need to do any tricks.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:13 PM
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I also think that there are "trick" bags that look like a regular plastic bag, but that actually allow airflow. Maybe not enough for the actor to last for a very long time, but enough to ensure they won't actually suffocate during filming.
  #166  
Old 08-16-2018, 02:15 PM
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Lydia was always out of her depth as a bad guy and it showed. Mike the Cop pointed out how having him on the books and never showing up could cause problems and she doesn't get it. Gus, the probable former Chilean Intelligence officer also comprehends quickly and is clearly annoyed at Lydia.
. . .
As for the "bag over the head", won't it be easy to simply chew through the plastic to make an airhole(s) and then use your tongue to make it bigger?
As said above, no, it's not easy. You'd have to wait until the bag started pressing into the mouth, at which point your brain is already oxygen starved and your body is on full drown-response instinct. I doubt he'd have any conscious motor control at all by that point. He was in full fish out of water mode.

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Amen. Superb. And Michael Mando's performance watching his friend die was chilling. I could only watch through my fingers.
Gus's cold viciousness was something to behold as well. He is royally pissed at having his revenge interrupted, and just for a moment, we see why people are terrified of him.

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Did anyone else find the plastic bag scene physically difficult to watch? Not how I wanna go.
. . .
Oh yeah. I had to look away. We've said a lot about Nacho's performance, but the actor playing the dying man was superb. Actor's in the 70's used to go on about having a good death scene to their credit, but that was the first really raw one I've encountered.
  #167  
Old 08-16-2018, 04:36 PM
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One thing I forgot to ask before, did anyone find the hospital scene hilarious? They're doing the cliched "OK relatives, talk to the coma patient, it will help him come back" but the only relatives Hector has are the cousins, who mostly don't talk, and his two underlings, who only talk awkwardly about how they're keeping the streets in line.

It's also interesting how many major characters in this series don't really have people close to them - Hector has cartel connections, but no loving family. Jimmy and Kim have each other, but apparently no other really close friends or family (Jimmy had his brother and Marco, but they're both dead now). Chuck had basically cut himself off from everyone but Howard and Jimmy. Gus is similar, we don't even know if he actually has the family he talked to Walter about in Breaking Bad. Howard Hamlin may be similar, we know he's married but that may be just because he's supposed to be happily married and not out of real closeness (that would help explain him talking to Jimmy about Chuck's death). Mike and Nacho both do have close connections, though apparently just one or two, and those connections end up being a weakness for them.

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As said above, no, it's not easy. You'd have to wait until the bag started pressing into the mouth, at which point your brain is already oxygen starved and your body is on full drown-response instinct. I doubt he'd have any conscious motor control at all by that point. He was in full fish out of water mode.
Also, what they used looked pretty heavy duty. Out of curiosity I tried taking a bite out of a regular gallon freezer bag and even with putting the bag into my teeth (which, if you watch the scene, wasn't happening until the end) the best I could do is get little pinpoint holes in the bag from the tips of my teeth. No way it was getting enough holes to breathe, and poking a tongue on the bag is just going to move the bag. It's easy to bite a chunk out of a bag if you bite it and pull with your hands, but you can't do that with a bag zip tied to your neck and your hands zip tied behind your back. (if you experiment with biting bags, FFS don't put a bag over your head as you can die that way). And that's just a regular bag, not the heavier bag they had (which is probably a commercial food bag, given their location).

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Gus's cold viciousness was something to behold as well. He is royally pissed at having his revenge interrupted, and just for a moment, we see why people are terrified of him.
Also, while he's pissed you can see that, like in Breaking Bad, he's not just lashing out. The plastic bag isn't for the person who disrupted his plans, it's to intimidate that person into obeying him, keep him from temptation to finish the job if/when Hector recovers, and probably to hurt the Salamanca organization. He's ruthless, but unlike Tuco, who just lashes out almost randomly when he gets irate, or Hector, who likes to push people around but doesn't really calculate the effects, he wields it like a scalpel to suit his plans.
  #168  
Old 08-16-2018, 06:06 PM
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Am I the only one who recalls there being a feeling of urgency, that Nacho had to move up the timetable and get rid of Hector ASAP or his dad was going to fight back and get himself killed?
Definitely. As they were walking away after giving Nacho's dad the money Nacho was trying to assure Hector that his father would come around. Hector just said, "I don't trust him." Death sentence.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:15 PM
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I'm a little cheesed off that it's impossible for us to see Mike and Gus go mano a mano against each other for reals. I'm honestly not sure who'd win that one. Dammit, Walter, you fucked it up!
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:18 PM
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Nacho's papi was very against it, but had no real choice and knew it so he complied. Nacho was doing his best to get dad out of the mess Nacho put him into but there's no way to force a stroke, all he could do was change the pills and wait, knowing he could let dad out of the deal once Hector was out of the picture. Dad is not letting Nacho off the hook though--that was a pure dee "You started this, now you lay in it" fuck you move with the money. I don't think I've ever seen a better "You are no son of mine" moment, especially one without words. Brutal!
Funny, I saw a father being torn in two by conflicting emotions: anger at his son for getting into the mess, but also fear for his son's life.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:41 PM
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It can be all those things--I know from personal experience what it's like to have a kid do something so mind blowingly reckless and stupid that you have to just walk away for a minute before your abject hatred of what they've done, your anger over just how fucked up it is and your affront over having raised such a blithering idiot overcomes your love for your child. One of those "Dammit, I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!" moments.
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:51 PM
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I always thought Kim's high, tight ponytail reflected her discipline. Not a hair out of place, for sure. AND it was her trademark, she would be known as 'the attorney with the ponytail'. ..... I also thought she was good looking, but not a knockout beauty. Mr. Salinqmind informs me I am full of it as Kim is indeed, a knockout beauty!
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:48 PM
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Funny, I saw a father being torn in two by conflicting emotions: anger at his son for getting into the mess, but also fear for his son's life.
This is the way I saw it too. That single word "Mijo" held a chasm of angst and love.

Last edited by TruCelt; 08-16-2018 at 08:49 PM.
  #174  
Old 08-16-2018, 08:57 PM
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I always thought Kim's high, tight ponytail reflected her discipline. Not a hair out of place, for sure. AND it was her trademark, she would be known as 'the attorney with the ponytail'. ..... I also thought she was good looking, but not a knockout beauty. Mr. Salinqmind informs me I am full of it as Kim is indeed, a knockout beauty!


Ima go with knockout beauty.

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  #175  
Old 08-16-2018, 10:01 PM
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Definitely. As they were walking away after giving Nacho's dad the money Nacho was trying to assure Hector that his father would come around. Hector just said, "I don't trust him." Death sentence.
Oh, right—that’s it. Thank you!

ETA: Kim is a moderately good looking person made very attractive by her personality.
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  #176  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:55 AM
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There's a great interview with Rhea Seehorn about this episode, and especially the scene with Howard, here. In some of it she goes into so much detail about what Kim is thinking re. Jimmy and Chuck that it might almost count as spoilers for those of us who like speculating about characters' interior lives.

On Kim losing it with Howard:
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A: Kim losing it is different than someone else. Itís specific to her. I wasnít sure how big a fissure in Kim could be seen. I did think of it as suppression of everything from the previous season. Itís everything. There are years of frustration with Hamlin. I think she has some compassion for Howard, but in retrospect, it is this highly protective part of her protecting Jimmy or protecting anything that she considers her own. I think she thought it was terrible timing Ė and it is. To even come over there and insinuate suicide, even though Iím sure Kim was thinking the same thing, is the worst timing ever. Itís also quite selfish. Kimís not sitting there crying, because she thinks she should be strong, so itís repugnant to her that Howard would come over thinking he should get solace from Jimmy. Thereís anger.
Quote:
Q: What does Kim make of Jimmyís reaction to Chuckís death?

SPOILER:
A: Itís so complex. Bob [Odenkirk] and I talked about it from Day 1 to Wrap Day of Season 4. The complexity of grieving was a really interesting gauze to look through. There were things that Jimmy was doing that were very odd. [Sheís] being the support system for someone whoís grieving. In Episode 1 and 2, itís ďWow, his behavior is really strange, but no matter how horrible the brother relationship becameÖ itís still his brother and still a human that didnít just die, but committed suicide by horrible means.Ē There are grotesque things he has to take in and horrific pain he has to take in. Thereís a lot of watching his behavior. When heís silent, itís that feeling of ďDoes this person need time to digest this or is this person shutting down and I need to push them to talk?Ē Kim doesnít talk about her feelings. We have someone whoís not a Chatty Kathy, emotionally, but it becomes different when youíre worried about if your partner is OK. Deep down, I think Kim needs to talk about it, too, and she doesnít have the tools. She chooses to keep things in and we see what happens when she loses control of that in this episode.
  #177  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:17 AM
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Was there any meaning in his dad separating the money into 3 stacks?
Only that it was exactly the same way Hector laid out the cash when giving it to Papi last season.

It all looked like fifties, and not big stacks either. We're looking at, what, $600? Is that all Hector thinks it costs to buy an honest man's livelihood and turn it into a drug front? I'd be deeply offended too. Tony Soprano wouldn't have pulled something that low.

The Salamancas really are awful at this crime thing. At first I thought Tuco was just a bad apple and Hector was the more competent brains of the operation. But after getting a better look at how Hector does business, it seems the nut didn't fall far from the tree after all.
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:38 AM
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Love Seehorn, but I cringed at her saying “committed suicide”: https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/06/09/hea....google.com%2F
  #179  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:51 PM
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The Salamancas really are awful at this crime thing. At first I thought Tuco was just a bad apple and Hector was the more competent brains of the operation. But after getting a better look at how Hector does business, it seems the nut didn't fall far from the tree after all.
This is why I didn't see any specific threat to Papi from Hector--because asshole Hector is just generally a threatening asshole to everyone, all the time. He's weak, to have to put up all that front in order to maintain his authority, while Gus can be out sweeping the parking lot of trash and freeze you with one level stare. While continuing to sweep. THAT is power, THAT is authority. Hector is well named, that's really all he does. Lots of bark, has to outsource the biting to the cousins.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:13 PM
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I think they intended the audience, and Nacho, to see a real, clear and present danger.

ETA:

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I have a vague recollection of Chuck living across from a park, but I wouldn’t swear on it. It is odd that the bench wouldn’t be facing the street though.
I meant to comment on this earlier. I am puzzled by this. Where I live, park benches face into the park, not out toward the street. If your kids are playing, you need to be able to keep an eye on them. Or if you are just in the park to relax or eat your lunch, you want to look at the greenery rather than the cars out on the street.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 08-17-2018 at 02:16 PM.
  #181  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:21 PM
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Michael Mando is doing amazing work in a role that is beautifully written; there seems little doubt that tragedy lies ahead for a character who is trying to do the right thing, in so far as that's possible in the life he's fallen into.
Very true.
Anyone who gets into that point in their life has been an absolute fucking idiot.

In real life it is sometimes possible to buy your way out of that position. (I know someone who has.)

In this show? With Gus? It's going to be much harder. But I suspect we're only going to find out in the final black and white portion of the final show.

At least, that's how I'd write it.
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  #182  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:28 PM
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I think they intended the audience, and Nacho, to see a real, clear and present danger.

ETA:



I meant to comment on this earlier. I am puzzled by this. Where I live, park benches face into the park, not out toward the street. If your kids are playing, you need to be able to keep an eye on them. Or if you are just in the park to relax or eat your lunch, you want to look at the greenery rather than the cars out on the street.


Ah, good point. I was assuming the bench was part of a bus stop.
  #183  
Old 08-17-2018, 06:56 PM
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There's a great interview with Rhea Seehorn about this episode, and especially the scene with Howard, here. In some of it she goes into so much detail about what Kim is thinking re. Jimmy and Chuck that it might almost count as spoilers for those of us who like speculating about characters' interior lives.

On Kim losing it with Howard:
The thing about Vince Gilligan (and for this series, Peter Gould): they hire actors of high intelligence.
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:01 PM
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I would imagine that getting cast for a Gilligan/Gould production would be a dream come true for a serious actor.
  #185  
Old 08-20-2018, 05:02 AM
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I want to know how they do a stunt like that. Plastic bags are pretty flimsy, and will easily be sucked to your mouth and nose when you inhale. How do they make it work for the actors and keep them safe? Had the same question in Lucky Number Slevin where both bad guys are executed with plastic bags. Seems there must be some trick to it other than, "trust us, you'll be ok while you can't breathe," but I can't see it.
I had the same thought, but then sort of answered it to myself. I think it's probably a combination of:

1. If your face is close to the plastic it will fog up even if there's plenty of air in the bag. There's no need to actually block air getting in for the shot to look realistic. You could even have an air tube round the back, as long as it's not pumping in so much as to inflate the bag .

2. They have medics on-site, and also they agree some kind of signal the actor can give if they are in genuine trouble.
  #186  
Old 08-20-2018, 10:04 PM
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Well, that was fraught with woes to come.

Gus really does own Nacho. Phew!!

Nice to see Gale and hear some great Tom Lehrer music.

And that was a different ending. Just why was Kim so upset? Because Jimmy was so blase?

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  #187  
Old 08-20-2018, 10:44 PM
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And that was a different ending. Just why was Kim so upset? Because Jimmy was so blase?
Considering the slow burn nature of the show, I assume they're going somewhere with it Better Call Saul isn't exactly known for it's set 'em up and knock 'em down scenes.
  #188  
Old 08-20-2018, 10:55 PM
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Possible Easter Egg...


During one of the scenes when Ira was in the office stealing the Hummel figurine, I noticed this.
Upon looking it up later I read that it's just a [regular] glove that he left there. However, when I first watched it, it appeared to be a giant glove. It looked like a bean bag on the floor in front of the recliner.
Perhaps this was just an accident, I'm guessing Vince used some forced perspective to make it look that big as a direct reference to Uncle Jack in It's Always Sunny.


For those of you not familiar with It's Always Sunny, Uncle Jack, played by the same person that owns the copy machine store in Better Call Saul is very self conscious about the size of his hands and does bizarre things to get people to think they're bigger...hence the "giant" glove.
  #189  
Old 08-20-2018, 11:06 PM
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  #190  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:38 AM
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A good episode, very reminiscent of Breaking Bad at the beginning (and at the end). The complications associated with stealing the Hummel were quite funny, and the note Chuck left for Jimmy was surprisingly upbeat.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:43 AM
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A good episode, very reminiscent of Breaking Bad at the beginning (and at the end). The complications associated with stealing the Hummel were quite funny, and the note Chuck left for Jimmy was surprisingly upbeat.
What if Chuck didn't write that letter? Maybe Howard did.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by soonerblue View Post
What if Chuck didn't write that letter? Maybe Howard did.
That falls in with Kim's reaction - she is realizing Howard did that for Jimmy, not Chuck. I couldn't imagine Chuck writing that letter after working so hard to undermine Jimmy for years though ...would Howard know about their mother's preference for Jimmy?
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  #193  
Old 08-21-2018, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Biffster View Post
A good episode, very reminiscent of Breaking Bad at the beginning (and at the end). The complications associated with stealing the Hummel were quite funny, and the note Chuck left for Jimmy was surprisingly upbeat.
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Originally Posted by soonerblue View Post
What if Chuck didn't write that letter? Maybe Howard did.
I almost thought Kim may have written it. Chuck never would have written a letter, to Jimmy, along the lines of 'hey bro, how's it going, I'm good' As Kim stated, we all expected that letter to be one final fuck you from beyond the grave.

Either someone other than Chuck wrote it, or there's more to it that hasn't been revealed yet.
  #194  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LVBoPeep View Post
That falls in with Kim's reaction - she is realizing Howard did that for Jimmy, not Chuck. I couldn't imagine Chuck writing that letter after working so hard to undermine Jimmy for years though ...would Howard know about their mother's preference for Jimmy?
I don't explicitly remember Kim's reaction, but I think she'd understand and/or be okay if it was re-written by Howard to sound positive. Of course, Jimmy would have known right away that that's not his brother's attitude for him.

As for what Howard knows about Jimmy's relationship with his mother, I think it's safe to say he knows a good bit. Don't forget, Chuck and Howard's dad worked together for years, then and some point Howard's dad retired and Howard took over, again, working side by side with Chuck. All those hours together and people chit chat. Add to that, dinner meetings, unwinding with drinks, knowing each other's families etc. At some point, probably lot's of points, Chuck has probably brought it up.


Something to be remembered about Howard, though, is that he's not a bad guy. He comes off as a bad guy when seen through the eyes of Jimmy and Vince probably made him a bit smug to help drive that home. He's portrayed as an antagonist, but he's done very little that would give him the title of enemy, yet that's how we see him.

I don't recall where I saw it (the aftershow, maybe?) but there was an interview/discussion with Patrick Fabian when he had just a few episodes under his belt. He said that (and I may be mis-remembering this) that fans of the show hated him, called him names on the street etc, yet he'd done nothing wrong. He was essentially a good guy, but Jimmy didn't like him and that's the only POV you saw him through.
  #195  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
. . .
Just why was Kim so upset? Because Jimmy was so blase?
I've got a million possibilities for this one:
1. Relief - the letter could have been a lot worse and she has been desperately worried about this for days.

2. Concern - Jimmy is still subsuming his emotions around the whole Chuck thing and this is beginning to scare her.

3. Horror - That really was the worst thing Chuck could have done. The letter has the power to drag Jimmy back into the yearning for closeness which had finally been starved to near extinction. That would make the whole nightmare 10,000 times worse.

4. Self-hate - if Chuck was basically a good person then her justification for everything she's done to help Jimmy crumbles.

5. Cognitive Dissonance - The letter is nearly impossible to reconcile with the "Fuck-you" five thousand dollar bequest.

You have to give Chuck credit, he never does anything half way.
  #196  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:29 AM
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Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I'm having a hard time rewiring my understanding of Nacho. Realizing that all that time he was taking care of Salamanca in the that little cabin out in the woods, he was doing it at Gus's behest. Urk?!

Last edited by TruCelt; 08-21-2018 at 08:29 AM.
  #197  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:30 AM
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Oooh, #3 is good. That's pretty damn manipulative and if there's anything Chuck was, it was manipulative.

It should be interesting to see the reason. If Kim had never given it to him, if she had destroyed it, we never would have thought anything of it, in fact it would even make sense. Her giving it to him was a plot device that, no doubt, they have plans for.
  #198  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:36 AM
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Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I'm having a hard time rewiring my understanding of Nacho. Realizing that all that time he was taking care of Salamanca in the that little cabin out in the woods, he was doing it at Gus's behest. Urk?!
Wasn't it his grandson, Tuco, that was taking care of him in Breaking Bad?
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  #199  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:45 AM
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Wasn't it his grandson, Tuco, that was taking care of him in Breaking Bad?
Correct. Nacho did not appear in "Breaking Bad". Though Saul mentioned him at least once during that series.
  #200  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:37 AM
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I don't understand why Gus goes through all that trouble to keep Nacho on the payroll. Why not just shoot him dead in the desert?
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