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  #201  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:40 AM
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Another explanation for Kim's reaction to the letter is that she knew what the letter said, but what Jimmy "read" wasn't that. The reality that Jimmy really is a sleaze is dawning on her.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:52 AM
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That falls in with Kim's reaction - she is realizing Howard did that for Jimmy, not Chuck. I couldn't imagine Chuck writing that letter after working so hard to undermine Jimmy for years though ...would Howard know about their mother's preference for Jimmy?
I think you've got the timing of that undated letter wrong - I believe Chuck wrote the letter back while Jimmy was working in the mail room, before he finished his University of American Samoa degree. That makes what Chuck said in the letter true at the time - Chuck was happy to see Jimmy working a legitimate job, and thought he was in an appropriate place, working on the right side of the law in a position where he can't cause much harm and where Chuck can keep him reigned in. In other words, the letter is a snapshot of Chuck's thoughts before he felt the need to work to undermine Jimmy, and the fact that Chuck betrayed Jimmy later gives it a much darker subtext.

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Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I'm having a hard time rewiring my understanding of Nacho. Realizing that all that time he was taking care of Salamanca in the that little cabin out in the woods, he was doing it at Gus's behest. Urk?!
I think you're getting badly mixed up, if you're talking about Breaking Bad. Nacho never appears in Breaking Bad, he's just mentioned by Saul during Saul's first episode. The only cabin in the woods was Walt's hidey hole at the end. The person taking care of Hector in the house in the desert was Tuco Salamanca, the one who Jimmy talked out of killing the two con-boys and who Mike goaded into punching him.
  #203  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:08 AM
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I don't understand why Gus goes through all that trouble to keep Nacho on the payroll. Why not just shoot him dead in the desert?
Perhaps because he's very good at what he does and seems to be one of the few people that always seems to have a steady disposition, almost similar to Gus.

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Another explanation for Kim's reaction to the letter is that she knew what the letter said, but what Jimmy "read" wasn't that. The reality that Jimmy really is a sleaze is dawning on her.
How would she know what it said?
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:16 AM
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What if Chuck didn't write that letter? Maybe Howard did.
Yes, " . . . the HHM family" sounds more like Howard than Chuck. But Pantastic makes a good point about the timing. If Chuck had Jimmy cheerfully toiling away in a menial support position the letter makes a lot more sense.

It also supports Chuck's guilt at never having told Jimmy his mother's last words. The letter comes as close as he could bear to telling Jimmy.

Which is another possible explanation for Kim's tears as well. If she caught the meaning of the words about how Jimmy brought Mom a happiness nothing else ever did. She may have finally figured out Chuck's basic jealousy and the searing cause of all this destruction. Chuck had to substitute achievement for feeling loved. He couldn't accept Jimmy getting to have both.

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Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I'm having a hard time rewiring my understanding of Nacho. Realizing that all that time he was taking care of Salamanca in the that little cabin out in the woods, he was doing it at Gus's behest. Urk?!
Desert. Cabin was in the desert.

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Wasn't it his grandson, Tuco, that was taking care of him in Breaking Bad?
You are right; thank you!

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Originally Posted by california jobcase View Post
Another explanation for Kim's reaction to the letter is that she knew what the letter said, but what Jimmy "read" wasn't that. The reality that Jimmy really is a sleaze is dawning on her.
That would explain him saying "new paragraph" liars tend to add unnecessary detail. But if that's the case I don't think it's the sleaze factor upsetting her. I think it's the fact that she realizes his calm facade is there to protect her.

Also, her upset about the models, do you think it's because she realizes she can't do all this herself? It was nice watching her learn to delegate - many good professionals go down because they can't do it.

Last edited by TruCelt; 08-21-2018 at 10:21 AM.
  #205  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:20 AM
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. . .
I think you're getting badly mixed up, . . .
I was. Thanks.
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:21 AM
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I don't understand why Gus goes through all that trouble to keep Nacho on the payroll. Why not just shoot him dead in the desert?
Why would Gus want to shoot him dead in the desert - he doesn't gain anything from that? By leaving Nacho alive, he makes sure that there is someone believable to tell the cartel that the hit was from a rival gang, which he needs for his long-term plans. If he just kills Nacho, he needs someone else to be a witness to the attack, who they might not believe. Surviving the attack gives Nacho credibility with the Cartel, and the other lieutenant being dead means he'll be doing more work in Hector's organization, so he's an even more valuable asset to Gus. There's a lot of gain in keeping Nacho around.

Also, 'on the payroll' isn't correct if you mean Gus's payroll - Gus isn't paying Nacho to work for him, he's holding the threat of revealing Nacho's treachery to the Salamancas over him. That's a lot stronger than just offering him some cash would be, because if Gus reveals what he did then the cartel will kill him and likely his father, so there's no real 'out' for him. If it was just cash, he could say 'I took the money to find out what his plan is, I'm still loyal'.
  #207  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:38 AM
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I liked the fake ambush scene, it shows how good Gus is a quickly taking advantages of opportunities mixed in with long-term planning and manipulating people. He needs to push the Cartel into using local suppliers to end up with the operation that he has in Breaking Bad, and Nacho gives him a great opportunity to do that. I think that he's quite happy that the product Gale (who we're seeing for the first time) tests is low-quality - being able to flood the market with much better product is part of his long-term plan.

I loved the office burglary scene, it's hilarious and unexpected but perfectly believable. Nice intro for Jimmy meeting the (future?) owner of Vanamos pest control. I'm not surprised that Mike turned the job down, and he was right to point out that this doesn't fit Jimmy. Jimmy does scams and tricks and clever lawyering, straight burglary is out of character for him. I think it's both a sign that he's changing his acceptable methods to include more of the 'Saul' toolbox, and that he's thrown off from his usual self after Chuck's suicide.

There are so many things that Kim could be upset at after Chuck's letter. I don't think she gave him a fake letter or that Jimmy read off something that wasn't the actual letter, I think she's worried about the effect the letter will have on Jimmy. But I've been reading her wrong a lot.

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"Just a large cheese...yes, sliced."

"Can you throw in some dipping sticks too?" I didn't catch that at first, but it's a great easter egg. (For the non-BB people, the pizza place is the same one that made the pizza for the well-known scene where Walt gets angry and throws a whole pizza on the roof, who have a gimmick of 'we don't slice our pizza, and we pass the savings on to you')
  #208  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:45 AM
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Also, 'on the payroll' isn't correct if you mean Gus's payroll - Gus isn't paying Nacho to work for him, he's holding the threat of revealing Nacho's treachery to the Salamancas over him. That's a lot stronger than just offering him some cash would be, because if Gus reveals what he did then the cartel will kill him and likely his father, so there's no real 'out' for him. If it was just cash, he could say 'I took the money to find out what his plan is, I'm still loyal'.
He's working for Gus. That's what I mean by "on the payroll".
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:52 AM
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What if Chuck didn't write that letter? Maybe Howard did.


I can’t see that. Both Kim and Howard have a sense of honour that makes them do things by the book. Maybe that letter is exactly what Chuck wanted to say, but he wrote it a while back (it was undated).
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:01 PM
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I can’t see that. Both Kim and Howard have a sense of honour that makes them do things by the book. Maybe that letter is exactly what Chuck wanted to say, but he wrote it a while back (it was undated).
Howard especially has not so much honor as 'this is the way things are done'. His experience has been that if you keep doing all of the right things, then money just keeps flowing in. He wants to execute Chuck's will properly and have everyone execute their part, that's why he offered Jimmy a position on the board of Chuck's scholarship. Faking a letter from Chuck is just anathema to him, and doing it as part of an official legal proceeding is even more out of character IMO.
  #211  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:51 PM
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Oh, one piece of speculation that I forgot: Kim reacted weirdly when Mesa Verde was talking about expanding into other states, and she seemed to lose focus right after they showed the Nebraska office model. It's possible she was just worried about the expansion, but I wonder if we're going to find there's something specific in her past in Nebraska that she's worried about. Could be tied to her visiting the courthouse too, as there doesn't seem to be anything else prompting that.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:55 PM
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Maybe a stupid question, but: who was the guy breaking in to the copier place
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  #213  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:57 PM
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I wonder if we're going to find there's something specific in her past in Nebraska that she's worried about.
That old incident with a sticky pastry in Nebraska's largest city, perhaps?
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:20 PM
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Oh, one piece of speculation that I forgot: Kim reacted weirdly when Mesa Verde was talking about expanding into other states, and she seemed to lose focus right after they showed the Nebraska office model. It's possible she was just worried about the expansion, but I wonder if we're going to find there's something specific in her past in Nebraska that she's worried about. Could be tied to her visiting the courthouse too, as there doesn't seem to be anything else prompting that.
I think she was just overwhelmed by how much work all that was going to be.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:57 PM
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Maybe a stupid question, but: who was the guy breaking in to the copier place
That's the head of Vamanos Pest from Breaking Bad, who ran the burglary crew of pest control guys.

I thought it was the gun runner working a side job until he was identified in a post above.
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:02 PM
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I think she was just overwhelmed by how much work all that was going to be.
I'm wondering if she realized they were expanding beyond their ability to support it, and the company would come crashing down. How do you tell your employer they're doing something stupid? I figured the courthouse thing was to check into some other background stuff on the company that would help shed light if they were.
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:15 PM
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clip..

I loved the office burglary scene, it's hilarious and unexpected but perfectly believable. Nice intro for Jimmy meeting the (future?) owner of Vanamos pest control. I'm not surprised that Mike turned the job down, and he was right to point out that this doesn't fit Jimmy. Jimmy does scams and tricks and clever lawyering, straight burglary is out of character for him. I think it's both a sign that he's changing his acceptable methods to include more of the 'Saul' toolbox, and that he's thrown off from his usual self after Chuck's suicide.

clip
I'm not surprised Mike turned down the job either. It occurred to me watching the whole heist scene that Mike would have done a more thorough job casing the place and and end up realizing someone was living out of their office.
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:30 PM
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I don't understand why Gus goes through all that trouble to keep Nacho on the payroll. Why not just shoot him dead in the desert?
More valuable as a "man on the inside". What doesn't make sense is the extreme effort the cousins did to keep him alive. Unless they were ordered to save him, it would have been wiser to snuff him out on that lonely road.

I'm not impressed with the Hummel heist. 15 minutes of filler and padding.
  #219  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:33 PM
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I can’t see that. Both Kim and Howard have a sense of honour that makes them do things by the book.
And Howard seemed truly upset with himself when Kim yelled at him. I'm not sure he knows how deep that sibling rivalry runs.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:55 PM
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I think she was just overwhelmed by how much work all that was going to be.
She did seem to lose focus specifically as he talked about Nebraska, like an old memory was coming to mind. It's possible that she just sees more work than she can handle, or something large enough that it really is suited to a firm like HHM, but the timing makes me think there may be something more than that.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:03 PM
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I don't understand why Gus goes through all that trouble to keep Nacho on the payroll. Why not just shoot him dead in the desert?
Gus is not a believer in quick revenge; he is all about the long slow cold version. :shudder: Just shooting someone is not his ideal. He is living out the daily pain of his soulmate's death, and so will Salamanca. If that is stolen from him, then I suspect Nacho will be receiving the punishment.

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Oh, one piece of speculation that I forgot: Kim reacted weirdly when Mesa Verde was talking about expanding into other states, and she seemed to lose focus right after they showed the Nebraska office model. It's possible she was just worried about the expansion, but I wonder if we're going to find there's something specific in her past in Nebraska that she's worried about. Could be tied to her visiting the courthouse too, as there doesn't seem to be anything else prompting that.
Good catch!

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And Howard seemed truly upset with himself when Kim yelled at him. I'm not sure he knows how deep that sibling rivalry runs.
I think he cares deeply what Kim thinks of him. If his life were his own he'd like to have friends like Kim and Jimmy.

Last edited by TruCelt; 08-21-2018 at 05:04 PM.
  #222  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:28 PM
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I will be SHOCKED if there was anything tricky or twisty going on with the letter. I think the obvious interpretation is that Jimmy read Chuck's words, and Kim was disturbed by Chuck's words, and/or Jimmy's (lack of) reaction to them. More speculatively, I think she was just floored at how totally casual Jimmy was about it. Here's his brother speaking from beyond the grave, and Jimmy ought to have SOME reaction.


I didn't get a feeling that Kim was alarmed about Nebraska, specifically... my initial guess was that she just thinks "these guys are SO crazily overambitious, they're going to flame out big time, what have I hitched my wagon to?", although it's certainly possible there's something more than that. (I can't remember what year this is supposed to be taking place in... any chance that Mesa Verde is going to get wiped out by the 2008 mortgage/financial meltdown?)


I think everyone's treatment of Nacho makes perfect sense. Gus keeps him alive because that gives him a man on the inside (and if Gus is smart, which he is, he will realize that Nacho is smart and ambitious (and obviously was never loyal to the Salamancas given that he poisoned Hector), and will try to convert him to being an actual respected lieutenant, not just a blackmail target). The cousins kept him alive because of (a) family/gang loyalty, and (b) he was a potential witness to who was trying to go to war with them.


I'm not sure how Gus benefits from getting product from local suppliers. At the beginning of _Breaking Bad_, he's already bringing his product over the border in the big Pollos Hermanos barrels.... or am I misremembering?
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:30 PM
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If you're doing one thread for the entire sesaon, could I make a request? Could the first person after the episode airs Stateside make it clear where discussion of the new epidode starts using some kind of Stand out Font to declare the new episode?

Last edited by Mr Shine; 08-21-2018 at 05:31 PM.
  #224  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:35 PM
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Gus is not a believer in quick revenge; he is all about the long slow cold version. :shudder: Just shooting someone is not his ideal.
Well, there was that box cutter incident.

ETA, let me rephrase that. "Well, there's going to be that box cutter incident".

Last edited by Joey P; 08-21-2018 at 05:36 PM.
  #225  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:07 PM
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I'm not surprised Mike turned down the job either. It occurred to me watching the whole heist scene that Mike would have done a more thorough job casing the place and and end up realizing someone was living out of their office.
I don't think the guy was actually living there--the strong implication of the dialogue was that they guy's wife had thrown him out, probably that evening, because of the lame gift he'd given her.

So Mike might not have been able to catch that in advance by casing the joint. Unless he cased the joint just an hour or so before breaking in.

But in re the Hummel job: How could Jimmy have been so sure that the Hummel he looked at--quite briefly--in the office while being interviewed was the very-expensive variant instead of the more common variant? If they look so much alike, Jimmy would have to have some kind of trick memory ('photographic'), or be an expert in Hummels, wouldn't he?

That bothered me.
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:16 PM
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I don't think the guy was actually living there--the strong implication of the dialogue was that they guy's wife had thrown him out, probably that evening, because of the lame gift he'd given her.



So Mike might not have been able to catch that in advance by casing the joint. Unless he cased the joint just an hour or so before breaking in.



But in re the Hummel job: How could Jimmy have been so sure that the Hummel he looked at--quite briefly--in the office while being interviewed was the very-expensive variant instead of the more common variant? If they look so much alike, Jimmy would have to have some kind of trick memory ('photographic'), or be an expert in Hummels, wouldn't he?



That bothered me.


Perhaps his earlier experience with Alpine Shepherd Boy taught him a thing or two.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:28 PM
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One question that struck me...

If these cartels are controlling the meth trade like it seems they are, we're talking millions and millions of dollars. I mean, just look at how much they were able to pay Mr. White. With all that at their disposal, don't you think they would have a "friendly"(real) doctor set up for bullet and stab wound situations? Not a second rate veterinarian? I mean it makes for good TV, sure, but it seems they'd be able to do better than Caldera.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:36 PM
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One question that struck me...

If these cartels are controlling the meth trade like it seems they are, we're talking millions and millions of dollars. I mean, just look at how much they were able to pay Mr. White. With all that at their disposal, don't you think they would have a "friendly"(real) doctor set up for bullet and stab wound situations? Not a second rate veterinarian? I mean it makes for good TV, sure, but it seems they'd be able to do better than Caldera.


The cartel had real doctors set up in Mexico on BB. Maybe it’s harder to slip under the radar in Albuquerque.
  #229  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:26 PM
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Wasn't it his grandson, Tuco, that was taking care of him in Breaking Bad?
That was something that always bothered me about Breaking Bad. Why did Tuco have Hector stashed in a derelict house in the middle of nowhere, with no one to take care of him? At that point Hector wasn't hiding out either from the DEA or Gus. (After Tuco was killed, the DEA just let him go, and he didn't seem to feel immediately threatened by Gus.)
  #230  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:00 PM
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I think she was just overwhelmed by how much work all that was going to be.
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Originally Posted by Patch View Post
I'm wondering if she realized they were expanding beyond their ability to support it, and the company would come crashing down. How do you tell your employer they're doing something stupid? I figured the courthouse thing was to check into some other background stuff on the company that would help shed light if they were.
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
I didn't get a feeling that Kim was alarmed about Nebraska, specifically... my initial guess was that she just thinks "these guys are SO crazily overambitious, they're going to flame out big time, what have I hitched my wagon to?", although it's certainly possible there's something more than that. (I can't remember what year this is supposed to be taking place in... any chance that Mesa Verde is going to get wiped out by the 2008 mortgage/financial meltdown?)
I was kind of puzzled by her reaction, but you guys are giving me some interesting ideas to think about. In the moment, I took it as “rapacious capitalism, gross!” But I’m not sure that makes sense, given that she would have always known that was what she was signing on to. Unless her accident and Chuck’s death have changed her perspective and she is now more Occupy Wall Street or something?

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I've got a million possibilities for this one:
1. Relief - the letter could have been a lot worse and she has been desperately worried about this for days.

2. Concern - Jimmy is still subsuming his emotions around the whole Chuck thing and this is beginning to scare her.

3. Horror - That really was the worst thing Chuck could have done. The letter has the power to drag Jimmy back into the yearning for closeness which had finally been starved to near extinction. That would make the whole nightmare 10,000 times worse.

4. Self-hate - if Chuck was basically a good person then her justification for everything she's done to help Jimmy crumbles.

5. Cognitive Dissonance - The letter is nearly impossible to reconcile with the "Fuck-you" five thousand dollar bequest.

You have to give Chuck credit, he never does anything half way.
Good points, and I did wonder about #5. My sense was that this was kind of an “oopsie”, borderline plot hole, on the writers’ part.

Speaking of money, though: why is Chuck’s five grand something to shrug at, “pay off my MasterCard”, but four grand from a burglary is something to drool over? I feel they should have had it be a bunch of figurines worth a total of more like ten times that much to make the storyline more believable.

Also, did anyone else think the guy might have switched the wrong figurine? The one he left in the case looked awfully similar. (ETA: I don’t mean the one he brought with him but the one that was already in the case, which he did not take.)

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I will be SHOCKED if there was anything tricky or twisty going on with the letter. I think the obvious interpretation is that Jimmy read Chuck's words, and Kim was disturbed by Chuck's words, and/or Jimmy's (lack of) reaction to them. More speculatively, I think she was just floored at how totally casual Jimmy was about it. Here's his brother speaking from beyond the grave, and Jimmy ought to have SOME reaction.
I agree. I have been burned sometimes in the past when I scoffed at the idea of a big twist, but usually I’m right. And when I’ve been wrong, I’ve side-eyed the show’s writers for doing something pretty questionable. This would definitely be such a case. Kim was sitting too close to plausibly claim it said something totally different from what it actually did, and even “Slipping Jimmy” is not capable of that kind of ad-lib in the moment. (Try it yourself, with no preparation and a different text in front of you.) The other theories have been well-debunked by others already.

I think the truth is more along the lines of what TruCelt proposed.

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I'm not sure how Gus benefits from getting product from local suppliers. At the beginning of _Breaking Bad_, he's already bringing his product over the border in the big Pollos Hermanos barrels.... or am I misremembering?
You are misremembering. He was distributing it to his various stores, not bringing it across the border. And it benefits him because it puts more of the business under his direct control. Ask yourself: how did Netflix benefit by starting to make “House of Cards” and going on to make so much other original content? They were doing very well selling other people’s stuff, but they were vulnerable to having that content pipeline shut off. It’s basically the same here (though I’m sure Netflix would hate being compared to a meth dealer, LOL.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 08-21-2018 at 11:02 PM.
  #231  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:27 PM
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I don't think the guy was actually living there--the strong implication of the dialogue was that they guy's wife had thrown him out, probably that evening, because of the lame gift he'd given her.
I agree that the guy was probably only there for the one night, but I think Mike would have set outside the place out for a while before breaking in (long enough to realize there was a person moving around in there), or would have checked the bathroom. It's

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But in re the Hummel job: How could Jimmy have been so sure that the Hummel he looked at--quite briefly--in the office while being interviewed was the very-expensive variant instead of the more common variant? If they look so much alike, Jimmy would have to have some kind of trick memory ('photographic'), or be an expert in Hummels, wouldn't he?
Jimmy spent a lot of time with Mrs. Strauss going over her Hummel collection, including who was getting which one. I'm confident that one of the things she went over is distinguishing the different ones so that the wrong one didn't go to the cousin she didn't like, and that's where Jimmy learned to tell them apart. He also wasn't trying to figure out if something a random person handed him was real or fake (which would take more expertise), he's presuming it's real and just has to distinguish which one it is. Since they've actually spent screen time showing him learning Hummel identification, him being able to recognize a collectible one doesn't seem surprising at all to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57nge8q8CKk
  #232  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:47 PM
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Speaking of money, though: why is Chuck’s five grand something to shrug at, “pay off my MasterCard”, but four grand from a burglary is something to drool over? I feel they should have had it be a bunch of figurines worth a total of more like ten times that much to make the storyline more believable.
I'm sure that's a deliberate choice. Jimmy doesn't want Chuck's sympathy money. He _does_ want to hustle for himself and be his own man.


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You are misremembering. He was distributing it to his various stores, not bringing it across the border. And it benefits him because it puts more of the business under his direct control. Ask yourself: how did Netflix benefit by starting to make “House of Cards” and going on to make so much other original content? They were doing very well selling other people’s stuff, but they were vulnerable to having that content pipeline shut off. It’s basically the same here (though I’m sure Netflix would hate being compared to a meth dealer, LOL.
Sure, it makes absolute sense that Gus would want to control everything in-house. But he seems to be controlling less now. Up until now, he wasn't involved in production, but did all the smuggling (I think). Now he's still not involved in production, and also not involved in transportation. (Although I suppose one could argue that any third party manufacturers that he contacts and makes deals with are in some sense controlled by him...)
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:37 AM
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Speaking of money, though: why is Chuck’s five grand something to shrug at, “pay off my MasterCard”, but four grand from a burglary is something to drool over? I feel they should have had it be a bunch of figurines worth a total of more like ten times that much to make the storyline more believable.
It wasn't so much about the exact amount it's that the amount was so low. Chuck had considerably more money than that. Yes, I'm sure Rebecca got a chunk of it, but Jimmy was essentially a caretaker for the last several years of Chuck's life. I don't know where the 5k number came from, but think about how much money Chuck had. He's been a well respected lawyer for god knows how long, he just got bought out for, what, 10 million dollars (enough that Howard had to get a loan to pay him) etc. $4000 may have been chump change to Chuck, but it's a lot of money for someone that's out of work, drives a beat up Suzuki Esteem (the name's a pun, too) and is barely making ends meet.
In other words, giving Jimmy $5k was meant as an insult. It's like your sick parent leaving you $20 after you move in to take care of them while they die of cancer.
I think that Kim felt Jimmy deserved closer to a million dollars.

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ou are misremembering. He was distributing it to his various stores, not bringing it across the border. And it benefits him because it puts more of the business under his direct control. Ask yourself: how did Netflix benefit by starting to make “House of Cards” and going on to make so much other original content? They were doing very well selling other people’s stuff, but they were vulnerable to having that content pipeline shut off. It’s basically the same here (though I’m sure Netflix would hate being compared to a meth dealer, LOL.
More directed at Max, but while Gus would benefit because he'd make more money, he was never interested in manufacturing the meth. IIRC the cartel made it very clear that Gus' only job was distribution on this side of the border.
This episode appeared to be the beginning of Gus making the product on his own. He was instructed to do so because of the loads getting stolen. By the time we get to breaking bad, again IIRC, there was problems between Gus and the cartel over it, but Gale was making the meth.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:31 AM
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It wasn't so much about the exact amount it's that the amount was so low. Chuck had considerably more money than that. Yes, I'm sure Rebecca got a chunk of it, but Jimmy was essentially a caretaker for the last several years of Chuck's life. I don't know where the 5k number came from, but think about how much money Chuck had. He's been a well respected lawyer for god knows how long, he just got bought out for, what, 10 million dollars (enough that Howard had to get a loan to pay him) etc. $4000 may have been chump change to Chuck, but it's a lot of money for someone that's out of work, drives a beat up Suzuki Esteem (the name's a pun, too) and is barely making ends meet.
In other words, giving Jimmy $5k was meant as an insult. It's like your sick parent leaving you $20 after you move in to take care of them while they die of cancer.
I think that Kim felt Jimmy deserved closer to a million dollars.



More directed at Max, but while Gus would benefit because he'd make more money, he was never interested in manufacturing the meth. IIRC the cartel made it very clear that Gus' only job was distribution on this side of the border.
This episode appeared to be the beginning of Gus making the product on his own. He was instructed to do so because of the loads getting stolen. By the time we get to breaking bad, again IIRC, there was problems between Gus and the cartel over it, but Gale was making the meth.
I understand what Chuck did to Jimmy: Kim explained it very clearly in her great scene with Chuck. My point is more about why he’s getting so excited about four grand for the Hummel. I feel the reward is too low.

And I think you’re misunderstanding Gus’s motivations. The cartel told Gus to start making meth, or finding domestic manufacture, because he manipulated them into doing so
  #235  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:20 AM
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Another explanation for Kim's reaction to the letter is that she knew what the letter said, but what Jimmy "read" wasn't that. The reality that Jimmy really is a sleaze is dawning on her.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought that Jimmy might be making up what he was "reading". I didn't think about the idea that Kim may have already read it and knew that he was lying though, that would make sense.

I'm curious about Kim's reaction to the bank's expansion plans. It's possible that she thinks they're being overly ambitious and that concerns her, but I think there's something else going on. Why, after seeing the models, did she suddenly have to go to the courthouse but wouldn't say why? It's like seeing the models or hearing the plans made her realize something.
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  #236  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:55 AM
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More directed at Max, but while Gus would benefit because he'd make more money, he was never interested in manufacturing the meth. IIRC the cartel made it very clear that Gus' only job was distribution on this side of the border.
Gus was always interested in making meth. In BB, in a flashback to the earliest part of Gus' career, Don Eladio kills Gus' close associate (Max) shortly after Max & Gus propose making meth for Eladio's cartel. This is the death which Gus wishes to avenge by slowly ruining Hector.

The only way that the whole Hummel theft makes sense at this point in Jimmy's career is if he is acting as a junkie. His ego is at a low point & he needs the boost that a scam can give him. The fact that he tried to do it at a distance, was, of course, just self preservation. He ended up having to personally intervene, which is what he wanted in the first place.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:55 AM
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I understand what Chuck did to Jimmy: Kim explained it very clearly in her great scene with Chuck. My point is more about why he’s getting so excited about four grand for the Hummel. I feel the reward is too low.

And I think you’re misunderstanding Gus’s motivations. The cartel told Gus to start making meth, or finding domestic manufacture, because he manipulated them into doing so
I'm sure I do misunderstand his motives, sometimes overly complex plots get lost on me ((ie I always had trouble keeping up with The Sopranos). But it any case, that's why I back tracked a bit from 'he was never interested' to 'his only job was', as I thought about it more.


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The only way that the whole Hummel theft makes sense at this point in Jimmy's career is if he is acting as a junkie.
I dunno, 4k is a lot of money to someone that's out of work
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His ego is at a low point
His esteem.
  #238  
Old 08-22-2018, 09:44 AM
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I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought that Jimmy might be making up what he was "reading". I didn't think about the idea that Kim may have already read it and knew that he was lying though, that would make sense.



I'm curious about Kim's reaction to the bank's expansion plans. It's possible that she thinks they're being overly ambitious and that concerns her, but I think there's something else going on. Why, after seeing the models, did she suddenly have to go to the courthouse but wouldn't say why? It's like seeing the models or hearing the plans made her realize something.


I don’t think Kim would have read the letter before giving it to Jimmy. Her principles wouldn’t allow her to. Howard told her that it was for Jimmy’s eyes only. One of the things that sets Kim apart from Jimmy is her principled ways.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:07 AM
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I understand what Chuck did to Jimmy: Kim explained it very clearly in her great scene with Chuck. My point is more about why he’s getting so excited about four grand for the Hummel. I feel the reward is too low.
He's excited about running a 'scam', and selling the other person he needs on the $4k benefit. I think it's he's excited about the 'scam' itself and not the literal profit from it. It's pretty obvious to me that he's not acting rationally or healthily in this case, and it seems that Mike agrees since he was asking questions like 'what did these guys do to you'. If you're analyzing this based on the finances it doesn't make sense, but Jimmy's not acting on calculation, he's doing some combination of distracting himself from his grief and angrily embracing what Chuck told him the final time that they talked.

I also put 'scam' in quotes because this is qualitatively different than his traditional scams. For one thing, it's not any kind of trick or clever ruse, he's just hiring a guy to burgle the collectible. There's no 'game' element to it, he's not fast talking the mark, and there's no clever twist to it (like completely discrediting Chuck with a minor transposition error). Also, when we have see Jimmy scam people in the past, his marks are not ordinary decent people, or sheep like his father, they're jackasses who usually think they're pulling one over on him. The random guy in Chicago who wanted to scam Jimmy out of the coin when Marco 'discovered' it was worth more, the investment douche who wanted to talk him and Kim out of their inheritance, the music store owners who broke their agreement with him, Chuck, and so on. He didn't think of scamming his Elder Law clients out of money even though it would be easy, and the one scam he did pull on them (the mall walking thing) was arguably in their interest.

I think that Jimmy targeting the 'sheep' instead of out-wolfing other 'wolves' is a major change for him, and is a major step on the road that takes him away from the guy who was personally offended at Sandpiper ripping off old people to the guy who wondered why they don't just kill Badger.
  #240  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:23 AM
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That was something that always bothered me about Breaking Bad. Why did Tuco have Hector stashed in a derelict house in the middle of nowhere, with no one to take care of him? At that point Hector wasn't hiding out either from the DEA or Gus. (After Tuco was killed, the DEA just let him go, and he didn't seem to feel immediately threatened by Gus.)
Hector wasn't in hiding -- Tuco was. Since Tuco was taking care of Hector, where Tuco went Hector had to go. Since the brothers were coming to take Tuco back to Mexico, Hector had to be with Tuco to go with him.

How I figure it, anyway.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:34 AM
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I wonder how long it took David Costabile to learn that song. That was impressive. He does something similar in BB.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:34 AM
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Sure, it makes absolute sense that Gus would want to control everything in-house. But he seems to be controlling less now. Up until now, he wasn't involved in production, but did all the smuggling (I think). Now he's still not involved in production, and also not involved in transportation. (Although I suppose one could argue that any third party manufacturers that he contacts and makes deals with are in some sense controlled by him...)
Gus and Hector were both transporting. The cartel's decision to go with Gus only is what triggered Hector's collapse (Hector lost his transport with the loss of the ice cream business, and was trying to start again with Nacho's dad). That left Gus with control over transport. Now, with the cartel telling Gus to go with local manufacturers, he's setting up to control production and distribution.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:34 PM
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Hector wasn't in hiding -- Tuco was. Since Tuco was taking care of Hector, where Tuco went Hector had to go. Since the brothers were coming to take Tuco back to Mexico, Hector had to be with Tuco to go with him.

How I figure it, anyway.
Tuco didn't take Hector with him. Hector was already at the house before Tuco arrived, entirely alone despite the fact he was completely unable to take care of himself.

Tuco was on the run because the DEA had found No-Doze's body and ID'd Tuco's fingerprints. They raided his hideout and scooped up all his crew. Tuco managed to get away and kidnapped Jesse and Walt and went to the house where Hector was because he had nowhere else to go. He didn't have Hector with him, and no one else would have been available to take him there. The whole thing was unplanned. Tuco called the twins to come and get him after the raid.

Hector needed full-time care. He couldn't feed himself or go to the bathroom. Tuco would hardly have had the time to care for him entirely by himself, especially if he were at a house way out in the desert, so he presumably would have had someone taking care of him. But there was no sign of such a person.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:55 PM
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Oh, one piece of speculation that I forgot: Kim reacted weirdly when Mesa Verde was talking about expanding into other states, and she seemed to lose focus right after they showed the Nebraska office model. It's possible she was just worried about the expansion, but I wonder if we're going to find there's something specific in her past in Nebraska that she's worried about. Could be tied to her visiting the courthouse too, as there doesn't seem to be anything else prompting that.
Back when HHM was treating her shitty and that high-dollar firm was plying her with Moscow Mules trying to hire her away, I think she told them her hometown was on the Kansas/Nebraska border. They asked why she left and she looked sort of uneasy when she said, "no opportunities."

We all jumped on that and said, "yeah, there's more there than meets the eye!"
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:57 PM
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Tuco didn't take Hector with him. Hector was already at the house before Tuco arrived, entirely alone despite the fact he was completely unable to take care of himself.



Tuco was on the run because the DEA had found No-Doze's body and ID'd Tuco's fingerprints. They raided his hideout and scooped up all his crew. Tuco managed to get away and kidnapped Jesse and Walt and went to the house where Hector was because he had nowhere else to go. He didn't have Hector with him, and no one else would have been available to take him there. The whole thing was unplanned. Tuco called the twins to come and get him after the raid.



Hector needed full-time care. He couldn't feed himself or go to the bathroom. Tuco would hardly have had the time to care for him entirely by himself, especially if he were at a house way out in the desert, so he presumably would have had someone taking care of him. But there was no sign of such a person.


Goid point. A bit of a problem plot point that somehow I didn’t even consider when I watched Breaking Bad.
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:17 PM
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Goid point. A bit of a problem plot point that somehow I didn’t even consider when I watched Breaking Bad.
Me either when I watched it the first time. But Breaking Bad was usually moving along at such a headlong rush that you didn't have time to think about this kind of question.

Maybe BCS will get around to addressing why Hector was out there. It wasn't to hide from the DEA, because when they found him they knew who he was but didn't care.

It might be that Tuco realized that Gus was planning to kill Hector, and hid him there because of that. But that still doesn't explain why Hector was alone. Maybe the henchman whose job it was to take care of him was arrested by the DEA when he was in town.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:11 PM
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...the lame gift he'd given her.
I wondered if he may have bought it from Ed the Extractor.
  #248  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:09 PM
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Back when HHM was treating her shitty and that high-dollar firm was plying her with Moscow Mules trying to hire her away, I think she told them her hometown was on the Kansas/Nebraska border. They asked why she left and she looked sort of uneasy when she said, "no opportunities."

We all jumped on that and said, "yeah, there's more there than meets the eye!"
Maybe in Nebraska she's "Slippin' Kimmy"
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:13 PM
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Employee training videos with Mike
  #250  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:05 PM
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Regarding Chuck's letter to Jimmy: the letter was clearly written before Jimmy passed the bar exam - it was undated and only references Jimmy's work at HHM. Also, it says something like, "although we don't see eye to eye, and probably won't in the future" - not exactly the wording one would use if the letter were to be read posthumously. It actually sounded a lot (in tone, not content) like a letter my dad wrote to me before he went in for heart surgery back in the 80s (he survived, but gave me the letter anyway). Probably a letter he wrote some years before but never gave Jimmy. I think the purpose of the letter is not what the letter says or Jimmy's reaction to it, but rather Kim's reaction.

Kim has a deep, dark secret.
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