Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-20-2018, 09:38 AM
terentii's Avatar
terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 18,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
Now I feel a little like a fussy old parent, but Iím damned if Iím gonna let them show that shit to my kids when Iím paying for their service.
... And you obsess about shit like this, eh?
__________________
"Makes you wonder why we bother, eh, Fawlty?"
"Didn't know you did, Major."
  #52  
Old 12-20-2018, 10:16 AM
chaika's Avatar
chaika is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 472
It may be worth registering a complaint. It can't hurt to let the network and/or provider know that not all their customers are happy to see such blatant racist stereotypes. Whether they take any action is another matter entirely.

Obviously, different cultures approach these issues from different angles and levels of awareness. In Russia, for example, openly racist depictions of many minority groups are par for the course. It would be impossible to watch Russian TV without seeing them. And they appear in films/programs that are being produced today, not just in decades-old cartoons. For instance, a film called "My Boyfriend is an Angel" from a few years ago. Not only does it portray a Central Asian character in a stereotypical fashion, but there is an entire subplot in which a violent racist lout is magically turned into a black man by the angel of the title. This is meant to teach him a lesson and encourage him to mend his ways. But it is partly played for laughs and the idea of blackness as punishment is (at best) extremely problematic. I like to use authentic materials in my Russian language classes at a US university, but I would never show my American students scenes like these. And this is just the first example among many that spring to mind. Alas, complaining about such things in Russia is an exercise in futility.

Perhaps you will have better luck in Japan. It would be interesting to know how the network and/or provider reacts to a complaint.
  #53  
Old 12-20-2018, 10:43 AM
aceplace57 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CentralArkansas
Posts: 26,422
I'd use this as a teachable moment with the child.

Point out why the scene is hurtful and no longer accepted in society. Expect the child to ask a few questions. They'll have the information to use when you aren't there.

The overwhelming episodes of Tom & Jerry are great fun and entertaining. There's no need to obsess over the occasional scene that is dated and mildly offensive.

The original writers weren't trying to be racist. Sensibilities change over time. The writers can't be expected to know what the viewers will consider inappropriate 60 years later.

Last edited by aceplace57; 12-20-2018 at 10:47 AM.
  #54  
Old 12-20-2018, 12:13 PM
teela brown is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Almost Silicon Valley
Posts: 9,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
Also, you can buy the DVD with this "banned" cartoon on Amazon or stream His Mouse Friday on Amazon Video.
I watch 'em all on the video website Daily Motion. As well as all the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies.
  #55  
Old 12-20-2018, 02:18 PM
digs's Avatar
digs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: West of Wauwatosa
Posts: 10,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I'd use this as a teachable moment with the child.
That's what we did with our kids.

And they quickly learned that Dad thinks racism is so stupid that it's hilarious. So they'll see stuff like this and say "Dad, you gotta come see this [Black, Asian, Hispanic] stereotype, it's so over-the-top!"
  #56  
Old 12-20-2018, 07:04 PM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
... And you obsess about shit like this, eh?
No, I don't.
Did I give that impression?
  #57  
Old 12-20-2018, 07:30 PM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika View Post
It may be worth registering a complaint. It can't hurt to let the network and/or provider know that not all their customers are happy to see such blatant racist stereotypes. Whether they take any action is another matter entirely.
Yep. Like I said, already posted off a brief complaint.
Haven't received any reply yet. Don't really expect to.


Quote:
Obviously, different cultures approach these issues from different angles and levels of awareness. In Russia, for example, openly racist depictions of many minority groups are par for the course. It would be impossible to watch Russian TV without seeing them.
(My bolding): Now there's an easy setup for a gag to which I shall not stoop.

Interesting perspective on Russian TV programming though. Thanks.
Quote:
...This is meant to teach him a lesson and encourage him to mend his ways. But it is partly played for laughs and the idea of blackness as punishment is (at best) extremely problematic. ...
I agree with this idea that even benign/benevolent depictions of stereotypes can be harmful when they make that stereotype the butt of a joke or trivialize an issue. Sometimes the satirizing of prejudices can work, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it ages poorly and needs to be left behind.

What comes most readily to mind is the blackface routines of one of my favorite BBC shows, The Goodies.
I don't think they were done with any ill will, and were likely made with the intent to shine a light on racial prejudices (South African apartheid, in one instance), but they were mostly just played for laughs and seem very cringeworthy today.
  #58  
Old 12-20-2018, 07:51 PM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I'd use this as a teachable moment with the child.

Point out why the scene is hurtful and no longer accepted in society. Expect the child to ask a few questions. They'll have the information to use when you aren't there. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by digs View Post
That's what we did with our kids.

And they quickly learned that Dad thinks racism is so stupid that it's hilarious. So they'll see stuff like this and say "Dad, you gotta come see this [Black, Asian, Hispanic] stereotype, it's so over-the-top!"
Well, my kid is a junior-high-schooler who already has a pretty good grasp on what racial prejudices are and why they're bad.
(T'other day he asked me what I thought of Pewdiepie's rather questionable T-Series diss rap. We both agree it's pretty suspect.)

Thing is, I also laughed out loud in disbelief when I saw the T&J episode in question.
But I don't want my kids to get the wrong message and think it's OK to joke about racist stuff just because you're woke to how stupid it is.
Like aceplace suggested, it's important that they realize not just how stupid it is, but how hurtful it can be.

Not saying that T&J's antiquated antics are in anyway the worst example.
I'm more worried about the kind of casual/sneaky racism and bigotry that floats around social media and YouTube.
  #59  
Old 12-20-2018, 08:27 PM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Heh!
Watching T&J right now while waiting to get a haircut.
Gotta say, this cartoon has real staying power.

(Current episode: "Heavenly Puss"!)
  #60  
Old 12-20-2018, 08:32 PM
pool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Inside
Posts: 4,619
This thread for some reason reminded me of the Louis C.K. standup bit about how Mark Twain was such a great author and he wanted to read his books to his daughters. But he said he refused to read them Huckleberry Finn because he refused to sit there and say nigger like a hundred times to his six year old during bedtime. He decided to read them the more wholesome tale about Tom Sawyer but goddamnit if that dirty white trash creep Huck didn't decide to show up in that book as well. He had a magical cure for warts you see.
__________________
"You can do anything you set your mind to...But money helps"

Last edited by pool; 12-20-2018 at 08:32 PM.
  #61  
Old 12-22-2018, 05:53 PM
nightshadea is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 5,807
theres a few tom and jerry cartoons that for one reason or another that haven't been broadcast in a while also remember Ted turner who owned 99 percent of the studio cartoons made at one point was well known for cherry picking what he aired and out right editing parts and jokes he felt were offensive (one example is bugs vs the mounties in which the end was cut off by 30 seconds )

One that cartoon network has never aired and I don't remember the name of is one of the early 60s eastern European cheapies where tom is sitting on a railroad track waiting for the train ……. jerry in an oddly british sounding voice is narrating one of toms failed love affairs in which a wealthy butch out spent and classed him and his life went down the tubes trying to keep up but it played out like an addiction story and the only thing that made it amusing was the visual gags


Another one that didn't play for years until warners bought out ted was a rather sadistic chuck jones short where jerry and another unidentified mouse play these escalating practical jokes on a sleeping tom that almost end in tom convinced hes trying to kill himself and almost finishes the job...….

Last edited by nightshadea; 12-22-2018 at 05:56 PM.
  #62  
Old 12-22-2018, 07:21 PM
Bczar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
I just came home a few hours ago to find my kid watching an old Tom and Jerry episode on Cartoon Network.
Tom has Jerry and Tuffy trapped in a closet. How will they get past him!?
Then, Jerry finds a tin of boot polish!
(“No... this can’t be about to happen” I start thinking.)
Jerry begins smearing the boot polish over his face.
(“No... noooo-no-no-no-no-no!” I plead out loud to the TV.)
Jerry wraps a red and white polkadot handkerchief around his head.
(“Oh My God No!”)
But there is no god; and, yes, Jerry waddles out of the closet dressed as a mammy caricature, followed by Tuffy all blacked up as a Pickaninny “Honey Chile’”.
I was flabbergasted. (Well, to be honest, I was simultaneously laughing and cussing at the TV in incredulity.)

I looked it up, and the episode we saw is titled “Milky Waif”.

As I said to my kid, I remember seeing similar things in cartoons when I was a kid, but can’t believe I’m seeing it now, and I’m sure that wouldn’t be aired on Cartoon Network in the US.
This is Japan, so I think there’s probably a lot less sensitivity to that kind of thing, but I figured, if I’ve got the time to write about it here, I might as well write a complaint to the network.
Now I feel a little like a fussy old parent, but I’m damned if I’m gonna let them show that shit to my kids when I’m paying for their service.
I’ve seen that particular cartoon many times. If you’ve seen T&J a number of times, I’m sure you had seen Mammy in them. They would only show her from the waist down, but she had the stereotypical Mammy voice (“Thomas, is you gon’ catch that mouse?”). For a while, they redubbed her voice with that of the late June Foray (the voice of Rocky the Flying Squirrel and Granny in the Tweety & Sylvester cartoons) but went back to the Mammy voice in the Nineties. The thing that bugged me about that particular cartoon was that Jerry is MUCH smaller than that woman, so how did it fool Tom? Oh, and lest you think I’m a candidate for Klan membership: I’m a 58- year-old black man. Not all blackface is created equally racist.

Last edited by Bczar; 12-22-2018 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Forgot info
  #63  
Old 12-23-2018, 12:39 AM
DPRK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bczar View Post
Iíve seen that particular cartoon many times. If youíve seen T&J a number of times, Iím sure you had seen Mammy in them.
This character (does anyone ever actually address her as 'Mammy'???) in fact appears in the very first episode, wherein we learn that Tom's name is Jasper, and that she is a bad speller.
  #64  
Old 12-23-2018, 01:33 AM
markn+ is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: unknown; Speed: exactly 0
Posts: 2,780
Mammy's face appeared in exactly one cartoon, Saturday Evening Puss.
  #65  
Old 12-23-2018, 01:49 AM
lingyi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,096
I always get upset with posts that point to those insensitive <insert nationality/country>. I'm sure there are things in American culture that offends those in other countries that don't get posted here because this forum is highly Westerncentric, witnessed by the numerous posts about "Things that everyone the world knows" or "Everyone in the world does" posts. Considering that Europe and North America account for less than 20% of the world population, I find those kinds of posts and outrage misguided at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world

That said, worldwide brand Prada, recently was called to task for their "Pradamalia" fantasy figures which featured a distinctly stereotypical blackface "monkey" in a Soho, NY store and highly likely their other stores around the world. I'd love to hear the marketing of this, "Doesn't it look, a bit...ummm...stereotypical?, "No...it's a fantasy figure that will go over big with our cilentele!" *SIGH*

“Prada Group abhors racist imagery. The Pradamalia are fantasy charms composed of elements of the Prada oeuvre. They are imaginary creatures not intended to have any reference to the real world and certainly not blackface." *Double SIGH*

https://nypost.com/2018/12/14/prada-...om-soho-store/

Last edited by lingyi; 12-23-2018 at 01:52 AM.
  #66  
Old 12-23-2018, 02:43 AM
lingyi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,096
@Not Carlson

Just curious, did you talk to your son about why you thought the cartoon was inappropriate?

I posted in another thread that I used to read a lot of b/w comic magazines (Vampirella, Creepy, Eerie, etc) that my Mom told me had too much "man/lady stuff". I immediately trashed them all, not out of fear, but cause she respected me enough to tell me her concern.

As I think back upon it, it was apparently okay that there were lots of severed heads and other body parts!

Last edited by lingyi; 12-23-2018 at 02:47 AM.
  #67  
Old 12-23-2018, 03:22 AM
lingyi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
One that cartoon network has never aired and I don't remember the name of is one of the early 60s eastern European cheapies where tom is sitting on a railroad track waiting for the train ÖÖ. jerry in an oddly british sounding voice is narrating one of toms failed love affairs in which a wealthy butch out spent and classed him and his life went down the tubes trying to keep up but it played out like an addiction story and the only thing that made it amusing was the visual gags
You're describing Blue Cat Blues which wasn't a Eastern European cheapie or made in the 60's. It was produced by Hanna Barbera and released in 1956. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJI3pvwBuM

Don't mess with my cartoon memories, it's one of the few good things I have left!
  #68  
Old 12-23-2018, 06:52 AM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Bczar, what's yourtake on Mammy Two-Shoes?
I always thought it was a clever idea to have the human character shown only from the knees down, or the occasional scolding finger descending god-like from the top of the frame. And the voice and personality given to the character by the original voice actor works well to create an amusing no-nonsense authority figure who can be both coddling and threatening to Tom.

It's a sharp contrast to the goofy angry man who is Tom's owner in later episodes, and is shown in full body, which I thought was a poor decision.

It wasn't until much later in life that I realized Mammy Two-Shoes was a racial stereotype.

In the case of the episode I saw, where Jerry blacks up to fool Tom, I wondered at first whether he was going to try and dress up like Mammy Two-Shoes. That at least would have made some sense. But his disguise looks nothing like the little we see of Tom's owner, so the whole charade is not only offensive, it's completely bonkers!
  #69  
Old 12-23-2018, 07:02 AM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
@Not Carlson

Just curious, did you talk to your son about why you thought the cartoon was inappropriate?
A little, but I didn't really need to.
Although he doesn't know about the history of blakface, he understands that dressing up to mock another culture or ethnicity isn't right.
  #70  
Old 12-23-2018, 07:08 AM
Not Carlson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPRK View Post
This character (does anyone ever actually address her as 'Mammy'???) in fact appears in the very first episode, wherein we learn that Tom's name is Jasper, and that she is a bad speller.
I remember him being named Jasper in an early episode, but didn't remember the spelling mistake.
So I guess that's another stereotype.
Although my own spelling has always been atrocious, so maybe that's why I didn't notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
Mammy's face appeared in exactly one cartoon, Saturday Evening Puss.
No kidding!?
I had no idea.
  #71  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:42 PM
Bczar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 3
Not the best shot of her, but there IS her face being shown very briefly.
  #72  
Old 11-01-2019, 04:43 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
There have been complaints in the past about obvious blackface caricature characters, dolls, and cartoons in Japan.
Bump.
Turns out, they were probably just dressed as tapioca.
  #73  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:05 PM
Asuka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Bump.
Turns out, they were probably just dressed as tapioca.
That always makes me wonder if Day of the Dead facepaint is considered blackface since in a lot I see if them the black eye and mouth holes take up more space then the white skull portion.
  #74  
Old 11-03-2019, 02:36 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 27,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka View Post
That always makes me wonder if Day of the Dead facepaint is considered blackface since in a lot I see if them the black eye and mouth holes take up more space then the white skull portion.
I've never heard it considered blackface. I have heard Day of the Dead costumes are considered un-PC for Halloween. I'm not sure if that's because Day of the Dead isn't really "Mexican Halloween" or it's just that the overly PC snowflake crowd has declared any costume that references anything from another nationality as "cultural appropriation".



Here's one. As a white man, is it considered ok if I dress as Bond villain Baron Samedi? https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Baron_Samedi.
  #75  
Old 11-04-2019, 02:23 PM
furryman's Avatar
furryman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Collinwood, Collinsport
Posts: 3,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmoak View Post
Ask Cartoon Network Japan when their next airing of that wartime classic "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" will be.
Wonder if they still air Momotato's Divine Sea Warriors?
  #76  
Old 11-04-2019, 04:45 PM
teela brown is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Almost Silicon Valley
Posts: 9,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryman View Post
Wonder if they still air Momotato's Divine Sea Warriors?
I love that movie. I like to see the bizarre depiction of the westerners at the end, and their signing of the surrender papers.

The music and singing (especially the Japanese alphabet song) are very cool, too.
  #77  
Old 11-04-2019, 09:45 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Here's one. As a white man, is it considered ok if I dress as Bond villain Baron Samedi? https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Baron_Samedi.
Not sure how well it would work if you had light skin, as the white makeup wouldn't stand out and create the skull effect.

In other words, I would suspect that painting your skin darker would be seen as problematic, since the character is black.
  #78  
Old 11-05-2019, 03:23 AM
JpnDude is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 1,328
That's nothing. You can still rent Disney's "Song of the South" in some video rental shops in Japan.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017