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  #51  
Old 01-14-2019, 02:25 AM
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People can say whatever they want about their views on their own websites. That doesn't negate things they've said or done in public.
It reminds me of Ron Paul fanatics trying to claim that the Ron Paul newsletter had absolutely nothing to do with Ron Paul.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 01-14-2019 at 02:26 AM.
  #52  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:49 AM
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As I said about Hillary, if she gets the D nomination, I'll support and vote for her.

But she's not getting the D nomination. Even in the political calculus of "how does this impact the EC", she's a non-factor. The Dems will put somebody from Texas in the P or VP slot before they put somebody from Hawaii.
  #53  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:13 AM
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Hm. A Bernie Sanders supporter, who is not automatically and unquestioningly in lockstep about abortion. So the first means the moderate left won't want her, and the second means that the harder left won't want her. But she's popular in Hawaii. Sarah Palin was popular in Alaska, and she made it all the way to the VP slot, so anything can happen, I guess. But it probably won't.

She's a Congresswoman, but most of the talk seems to be about her foreign policy. That's unusual. She's got military experience, which is all to the good. She thinks we can go to 100% renewable energy, so that is a lost cause. She doesn't say much that I can see about the deficit, which is my bugaboo, but maybe it is the usual "promise to soak the rich and change the subject".

I don't see much to make her stand out from the crowd. I doubt if the average voter cares all that much about relations between the US and India. She's Hindu - whoopy-ding for her. At least she's not 70 years old.

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  #54  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:47 AM
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I don't see much to make her stand out from the crowd. I doubt if the average voter cares all that much about relations between the US and India. She's Hindu - whoopy-ding for her. At least she's not 70 years old.

Regards,
Shodan
Surprisingly agreeing with Shodan here, actually the things that make her stand out from the crowd are all negative. Obviously would take her over Trump or any other R, but right now shes at the bottom of my choices.
  #55  
Old 01-14-2019, 11:03 AM
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Yes, she's the Democratic Ron Paul, loudly popular on a narrow slice of the Internet but not so much in the actual world.
A very good analogy. Sheís got some supporters who are very loud on Twitter but theyíre also the type that likely voted for Jill Stein or sat at home and pouted last election. She doesnít have the fanatical supporters of Ron Paul. Ron Paul was very good at promoting Ron Paul, Gabbard not so much.

Sheíll be stuck on the kiddy table debates and probably drop out before the Iowa caucuses.
  #56  
Old 01-14-2019, 11:36 AM
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She might be running for the VP slot.

I guess she was the latest contestant on the new game show "he/she is now famous so let's run a google search for non PC comments in the past"
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:49 AM
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Blatantly homophobic, is that what you mean by "non PC"?
  #58  
Old 01-14-2019, 11:59 AM
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She might be running for the VP slot.

I guess she was the latest contestant on the new game show "he/she is now famous so let's run a google search for non PC comments in the past"
She decided to be a "liberal" about 8 years ago and in that, only as a policy matter as afaik she personally remains a social conservative.
  #59  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:08 PM
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a Dem social conservative ? I guess the Dems will lock her up and throw away the key .
  #60  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:17 PM
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a Dem social conservative ?
They still exist, it is just that they are not particularly common anymore. It's simply not a large enough constituency to get you elected to national office in of itself. In a presidential run it is definitely not going to get you through the nomination process. A socially liberal Republican( still a handful of those as well )is similarly not going anywhere.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 01-14-2019 at 12:20 PM.
  #61  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:21 PM
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If she's homophobic she certainly won't receive much support.
  #62  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:56 PM
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The Dems will probably nominate another hawk. Being antiwar hasn’t played well in the Dem primary. All types of excuses will be conjured, including outright religious bigotry, as exemplified by the thread.

There are plenty of social conservatives among the party masses. Gabbard should skip the Lilly-whites, that the party primary typically caters to, and head toward the non-ideologicals.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-14-2019 at 12:57 PM.
  #63  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:03 PM
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The Dems will probably nominate another hawk. Being antiwar hasnít played well in the Dem primary. All types of excuses will be conjured, including outright religious bigotry, as exemplified by the thread.

There are plenty of social conservatives among the party masses. Gabbard should skip the Lilly-whites, that the party primary typically caters to, and head toward the non-ideologicals.
And what would that accomplish? Finishing in last place in Iowa and New Hampshire isnít exactly a recipe for success even with the new primary schedule.
  #64  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:16 PM
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And what would that accomplish? Finishing in last place in Iowa and New Hampshire isnít exactly a recipe for success even with the new primary schedule.
Don't mind him. He's just banging his "center left thirsts for blood" drum, not really commenting on a particular candidate.
  #65  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:35 PM
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And what would that accomplish? Finishing in last place in Iowa and New Hampshire isnít exactly a recipe for success even with the new primary schedule.
Maybe Iím wrong and she should see how the antiwar message plays in one of those states. Ron Paul coaxed an avid antiwar movement out of the Republican masses, but he was much more consistent than Gabbard. Iím just not sure how much of an antiwar movement exists in the Dem party.

Whatever keeps her coasting through the primary season is what I would like to see. At least she will get these other candidates on the record on foreign policy issues. Last time foreign policy was completely ignored by Clinton, Sanders, and the media.

The non ideologicals may actually have a beef with the religious stuff, so that may be a nonstarter.

Of course any success she has will send the hysterics under their beds with flashlights in search of Putin.
  #66  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:59 PM
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I'd love to see an anti-war candidate. But that's not the only thing I'd love to see, and being anti-war isn't nearly enough to make up for being anti-civil-rights.

As an aside, after all of this time saying "Well, it's a long time until the primaries, I have to wait and see who shows potential before I decide who to support", it's a nice change of pace to have a candidate I can unambiguously decide about.

Last edited by Chronos; 01-14-2019 at 05:01 PM.
  #67  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:06 PM
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The scary thing is that the primaries aren't so far off. The Iowa caucuses are on February 3, 2020, which is about 54 weeks away or just over a year.
  #68  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:37 PM
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And I’m tired of, ‘If Trump can do it, anyone can.’ Trump started with near 100% name recognition and was also well known for his Obama comments. My group of friends is pretty well educated and many are political types and I bet no more than 10% of them know anything about Tulsi Gabbard.
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  #69  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:59 PM
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It's not so much that Trump could do it but that Obama could do it. He came out of nowhere and ran a great campaign. Now, whether Gabbard could run a great campaign, that remains to be seen. But like Obama, she is basically coming out of nowhere.
  #70  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:24 PM
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It's not so much that Trump could do it but that Obama could do it. He came out of nowhere and ran a great campaign. Now, whether Gabbard could run a great campaign, that remains to be seen. But like Obama, she is basically coming out of nowhere.
2004 Democratic National Convention keynote address: Reception

"That is an amazing moment in history right there. It is surely an amazing moment. A keynoter like I have never heard. [...] I have seen the first black president there." - Chris Matthews

"This is why you go to conventions, to watch a speech like this." - David Brooks

"A star is born." - Mark Shields

"If he wrote that speech, then he should be president, because it's such a great speech. If he didn't, he should be president because he found such a great speechwriter." - Hendrik Hertzberg

"He is a star...For Barack, the sky's the limit." - Michael Madigan

"It was such a moving speech that I had tears in my eyes...It was electrifying. When I looked around the room, all across the people were so emotional, tears in their eyes. They're crying." - Emil Jones

"I thought that was one of the most electrifying moments that I can remember at any convention." - Hillary Clinton

"When Obama runs for the White House, he will run not as a candidate for blacks. He has the capacity to run as a candidate for everyone." - Artur Davis

If Tulsi Gabbard had a moment like this in 2016, I must have missed it.
  #71  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:43 PM
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Similarly, I remember Bill Clinton delivered the keynote speech at the 1988 Democratic Convention. Except in his case, it was such a long, rambling speech that some thought he was finished.

They seem to give the keynote spot to a rising star in the party. And in 2016 the keynote speaker was Elizabeth Warren.
  #72  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:55 PM
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"In conclusion..."

<audience breaks out in cheers>

Funny moment.
  #73  
Old 01-14-2019, 07:30 PM
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I'd love to see an anti-war candidate. But that's not the only thing I'd love to see, and being anti-war isn't nearly enough to make up for being anti-civil-rights.

As an aside, after all of this time saying "Well, it's a long time until the primaries, I have to wait and see who shows potential before I decide who to support", it's a nice change of pace to have a candidate I can unambiguously decide about.
Oh you have your priorities. Preventing death and destruction takes a back seat to gay wedding cakes, or something...
  #74  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:15 PM
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The GOP has been the more warlike party for my entire lifetime, until pretty much just the other day. I'm not paying attention to any lectures from people who are all of a sudden peaceniks for no apparent reason other than it's all of a sudden the conservatively correct thing to be.

Also really sweet about how they get on a moral high horse about preventing death and destruction, but shut the door when people seek asylum here to avoid being killed at home.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:45 PM
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You don't think that anti-gay bigotry results in any death and destruction?
  #76  
Old 01-14-2019, 09:57 PM
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You don't think that anti-gay bigotry results in any death and destruction?
It's great to care about civil rights, but get a fucking grip. The chaos unleashed by the US in the last few administrations has killed hundreds of thousands.
  #77  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:22 AM
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It's great to care about civil rights, but get a fucking grip. The chaos unleashed by the US in the last few administrations has killed hundreds of thousands.
I think to get to ďhundreds of thousandsĒ youíre talking about ONE administration, and it wasnít a Democratic one. Am I wrong?

(Yes, yes, the death toll from the neoliberal order most humans live in is in the BILLIONS, since everyone who lives in it DIES! Both parties, but especially Democrats! But Iím talking about war deaths. I donít think weíre looking at anything like parity.)
  #78  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:42 AM
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I think to get to ďhundreds of thousandsĒ youíre talking about ONE administration, and it wasnít a Democratic one. Am I wrong?

(Yes, yes, the death toll from the neoliberal order most humans live in is in the BILLIONS, since everyone who lives in it DIES! Both parties, but especially Democrats! But Iím talking about war deaths. I donít think weíre looking at anything like parity.)
Most of the blame can be laid at the feet of the Bush/Cheney administration, I would agree.
  #79  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:11 AM
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It’s harder to measure Obama’s death toll. Indeed it is still racking up with his initiation of the war in Yemen and the destabilization of Libya.
  #80  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:16 AM
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The GOP has been the more warlike party for my entire lifetime, until pretty much just the other day. I'm not paying attention to any lectures from people who are all of a sudden peaceniks for no apparent reason other than it's all of a sudden the conservatively correct thing to be.

Also really sweet about how they get on a moral high horse about preventing death and destruction, but shut the door when people seek asylum here to avoid being killed at home.
Who are you talking about?

If you acknowledge they are less warlike now, how do you not make a coalition with them on that point as Gabbard appears to do?

Conservatives have been antiwar for over a century. It is the liberals who have adopted antiwar views in fits and starts. Yes the GOP was hijacked by mutated liberal neoconservatives for a time and did much damage.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-15-2019 at 05:19 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:26 AM
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Conservatives have been antiwar for over a century
Obviously, otherwise why would polling have shown that American conservatives overwhelmingly supported the Iraq war for years and years?
  #82  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:54 AM
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Who are you talking about?

If you acknowledge they are less warlike now, how do you not make a coalition with them on that point as Gabbard appears to do?
I do not. The Dems, by and large, are less warlike even now. And I fully expect that any effort to make an antiwar coalition with elements of the conservative movement would result in the GOP making hay over the Dems' "soft on" or "not being tough on" whoever the foreign enemy of the day was.
Quote:
Conservatives have been antiwar for over a century.
Vietnam. El Salvador. Nicaragua. Freakin' Grenada. Panama. Gulf War 1. Iraq. Would've done Iran if Iraq hadn't turned into a disaster.
  #83  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:22 AM
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Vietnam. El Salvador. Nicaragua. Freakin' Grenada. Panama. Gulf War 1. Iraq. Would've done Iran if Iraq hadn't turned into a disaster.
He's going to say those weren't true conservatives, or other such nonsense, even though by polling, American conservatives overwhelmingly supported almost all of those military actions.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:13 AM
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N/m, answered.

Last edited by JohnT; 01-15-2019 at 08:14 AM.
  #85  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:08 AM
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  #86  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:23 PM
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Similarly, I remember Bill Clinton delivered the keynote speech at the 1988 Democratic Convention. Except in his case, it was such a long, rambling speech that some thought he was finished.

They seem to give the keynote spot to a rising star in the party. And in 2016 the keynote speaker was Elizabeth Warren.
Nitpicking, but itís an important one. Bill Clintonís long rambling speech was the nomination speech for Michael Dukakis. The keynote speech was given by Ann Richards and itís still well known today. It has the line about George Bush being born with a silver boot in his mouth.

https://youtu.be/wtIFhiqS_TY
  #87  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:31 PM
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Conservatives have been antiwar for over a century. It is the liberals who have adopted antiwar views in fits and starts. Yes the GOP was hijacked by mutated liberal neoconservatives for a time and did much damage.
OH, yes please, tell us who these "mutated liberal neoconservatives" were...Reagan? Cap Weinburger? Oliver North? So what are we going to blame the mutation on: radiation from Three Mile Island? Toxic waste from Love Canal? McDonalds?
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:37 PM
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LOL @ Henry Kissinger being labelled a "mutated liberal neoconservative".

Since a "liberal neoconservative" is itself a mutation, what does the mutation of the mutation look like? Today's conservatives?
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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I do not. The Dems, by and large, are less warlike even now. And I fully expect that any effort to make an antiwar coalition with elements of the conservative movement would result in the GOP making hay over the Dems' "soft on" or "not being tough on" whoever the foreign enemy of the day was. Vietnam. El Salvador. Nicaragua. Freakin' Grenada. Panama. Gulf War 1. Iraq. Would've done Iran if Iraq hadn't turned into a disaster.
Well, Vietnam can be laid at the feet of JFK and LBJ.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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Funny, I've been here less, but last time I was here the Dope was a lot more bullish on Gabbard than they are now.
  #91  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:12 PM
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Well, Vietnam can be laid at the feet of JFK and LBJ.
And Ike. It's not like Jack woke up one day, nudged Marilyn snoring next to him, and said, "Y'know, what's going on in SE Asia just ain't right..." out of the blue. Eisenhower was very keen on stamping out those Godless Commies where'er they might be.

Of course, that tree-hugging peacenick Dick sure did his part to wind the whole mess down, amirite?
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Old 01-29-2019, 07:26 PM
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The Gabbard campaign is already in disarray. She might make a couple of the early debates, but no way she lasts until the end of the year.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...ncement-report
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:50 PM
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She was a prominent, vocal Bernie supporter AND she has one of the most conservative voting records among House Democrats. She's the candidate who can unite the entire Democratic Party...in saying "Go the fuck away!"
  #94  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:54 PM
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The Gabbard campaign is already in disarray. She might make a couple of the early debates, but no way she lasts until the end of the year.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...ncement-report
The timing of her Presidential announcement surprised her own aides?? That's a downright Trumpian level of stupidity.
  #95  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:55 PM
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OH, yes please, tell us who these "mutated liberal neoconservatives" were...Reagan? Cap Weinburger? Oliver North? So what are we going to blame the mutation on: radiation from Three Mile Island? Toxic waste from Love Canal? McDonalds?
Lizard People!!!
  #96  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:37 PM
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The timing of her Presidential announcement surprised her own aides?? That's a downright Trumpian level of stupidity.
Oh, it's worse than that. Her announcement a week or two ago was just that she would shortly be announcing that she would be running.

But now, 18 days later, she's yet to make a formal announcement that she's running. What the hell is she waiting for? Her lane to fill up with other, better candidates?

Stick a fork in her. She's less ready to run than Wesley Clarke was back in 2004.
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Old 01-30-2019, 11:14 AM
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Lizard People!!!
I'll buy the Lizard People theory before I buy into Reagan and Ollie being liberals.
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:28 PM
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And Ike. It's not like Jack woke up one day, nudged Marilyn snoring next to him, and said, "Y'know, what's going on in SE Asia just ain't right..." out of the blue. Eisenhower was very keen on stamping out those Godless Commies where'er they might be.

Of course, that tree-hugging peacenick Dick sure did his part to wind the whole mess down, amirite?
There were "advisers" in Vietnam under Eisenhower. CIA, too, I think...can't remember.
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Old 01-30-2019, 03:59 PM
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Blatantly homophobic, is that what you mean by "non PC"?
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If she's homophobic she certainly won't receive much support.


Her apology, FWIW. There is also audio recording of her apologizing to LGBT organizations in Hawaii and she has a good voting record on the issues. She's far from the only person to have been raised by activist anti-gay parents who's gone on to re-evaluate and change their views. Barack Obama was opposed to gay marriage for part of his presidency.
  #100  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:02 PM
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There were "advisers" in Vietnam under Eisenhower. CIA, too, I think...can't remember.
Yes, after Dien Bien Phu, we took up some of the slack from the French.
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