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  #151  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Reagan didn't even become President until 1981.

As far as I know, stock repurchases have never been illegal. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I work in the industry. As far as I know, no, it has never been illegal. Remember how cute it used to be to get your kid one share of McDonald’s or Disney back when you could get stock certificates? Those things are a pain in the butt for the company transfer agent to deal with and they have always looked to get those odd lots off their books.
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  #152  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:29 AM
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I guess what I don't understand is why this argument doesn't work in both directions. I mean, it is trivially true that the moderates need the progressives in order to win in the general... but isn't it equally, if not more, true that the progressives need the moderates in order to win in the general? And if it is true - and it is - that both sides need one another in order to win, then whence the argument that Side A should just completely concede to Side B? This makes no sense to me.
Part of the reason is that so-called moderate Democrats really don't represent the interests of potential Democratic Party voters. The electorate like high wages and free healthcare, to put it crassly.

Another reason is that moderation is, in itself, hard to get campaign workers excited about. Almost no one's going to be inspired to volunteer without pay for someone who's all about giving in to the Republicans. Obama was an attractive politician who was a moderate. But his moderation was only a selling point to some of us; many voters wanted him to be more radical.

And the final reason (and I think this was Brad DeLong's point, more or less) is that Clinton/Obama moderation, by definition, requires a cooperation from across the aisle that just isn't there anymore, not since 2010 at least. Why pursue a political strategy that gets you beat up and nothing more?

Last edited by foolsguinea; 06-19-2019 at 03:33 AM.
  #153  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:36 AM
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As I understand it, if you go where the votes are, you probably have to give the people a living wage and Medicare for All. Or, alternatively, you would have to go super-isolationist xenophobe like Trump is. If you want any rights for immigrants at all, you have to go full Bernie or lose.
  #154  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:59 AM
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... It's a thinly disguised attempt to tell everyone what they already know: that you like Bernie and won't vote for anyone less liberal than him.
Don't you mean "anyone less liberal than him with the exception of Mark Sanford" ?

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If I'm missing something please let me know, I'm also not saying stock buy backs are the ultimate factor, but they're a significant factor.
I have my own opinion about stock buybacks. I'm curious why YOU, Barack Obama, think they should be illegal.
  #155  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:55 AM
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He's too old, and has almost nothing to show for his long service in the House and Senate other than grumpy speeches. The GOP will crucify him for his (democratic) socialism, his honeymoon in Soviet Moscow and his flirtations with the Sandinistas. He's too hard-left for the kind of voters we need to win back from Trump.

And here's a letter I sent the last time around:

Dear Bernie 2016 campaign:

I got your recent fundraising letter, but I must admit I’m puzzled.

Is your candidate, the one now seeking the Democratic Party’s nomination for President, the same guy who in 1985 said, “I am not now, nor have I ever been, a liberal Democrat”? Who in 1988 said, “I am not a Democrat, period,” and dubbed Michael Dukakis “the lesser of two evils”? The man who in 1989 called for the creation of a third major party? Who said in 1990 that it would be “hypocritical” of him to run as a Democrat, and that he was “extremely proud to be an Independent”?

Can this be the very same man who in 2011 called for someone to run against President Obama in the Democratic primaries, and who has over the course of his political career never called himself a Democrat before now? Who has run against Vermont Democrats no fewer than 14 times over the course of his career? The one who told Vermont Affairs that the Democratic Party is “ideologically bankrupt”? Who said that “there is essentially no difference between the major parties”? Could it actually be the guy who told Progressive magazine as recently as two years ago, “I am not a Democrat because the Democratic Party does not represent, and has not for many years, the interests of my constituency, which is primarily working families, middle-class people and low-income people”?

That Bernie Sanders?

Yeah. Thought so.

No, thanks.


I noticed that, after he didn't get the presidential nomination in 2016, he went back to describing himself on his US Senate website as an Independent.

If you're going to be a Democrat, great, be a Democrat. Welcome aboard! But don't call yourself a Democrat just in years when you think you might win the party's top prize, and then say you're not anymore. That's just political opportunism.
  #156  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:15 AM
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But don't call yourself a Democrat just in years when you think you might win the party's top prize, and then say you're not anymore. That's just political opportunism.
But he has such consistent ideals! He's not like those other guys who only takes a stance when it's politically convenient!
  #157  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:17 AM
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Yeah, it's easy to keep your hands clean if you're not getting any work done.
  #158  
Old 06-19-2019, 01:23 PM
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But he has such consistent ideals! He's not like those other guys who only takes a stance when it's politically convenient!
Pft, it's not like he completely changed his mind on superdelegates when they were his only road to victory!

That, his crying about the DNC temporarily locking his campaign out after it was caught stealing voter information, and his "here today, gone tomorrow" stance on the Democratic Party are the three reasons I find him to be a terrible choice to lead the nation. Which sucks, because with some definite plans and study, he might have some really great ideas.
  #159  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:07 PM
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Yeah, it's easy to keep your hands clean if you're not getting any work done.
Yeah, unlike those effective dirty politicians, who have done wonders for the people of the USA.

When was the last one of those? 1973?

That excuse for the modern Dem leadership holds no water.

Clinton Democrats are called "corporate" to be nice, but I guess we mean "corrupt." The ones in power haven't actually addressed oligopoly or wage stagnation. This may have influenced the "brick through the window" rationale of a fraction of Trump voters. Bernie may be a goober, despised by the party, but he's at least another brick.

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  #160  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:10 PM
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don't call yourself a Democrat just in years when you think you might win the party's top prize, and then say you're not anymore. That's just political opportunism.
Well, there's no realistic way for an independent/3rd-partier to win the presidency. At a certain point you have to do what you have to do.
  #161  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:39 PM
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At a certain point you have to do what you have to do.
Trade your ideals for the chance at increased political power while devotees say you'd never ever do that? True that.
  #162  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:01 PM
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Trade your ideals for the chance at increased political power while devotees say you'd never ever do that? True that.
Yes, if "maintaining your ideals" in this instance means never getting elected president and thus seeing your plank/platform never enacted at all, or, delayed by decades. Idealism is often a recipe for getting nothing as opposed to something.

I'm not even a Bernie supporter, but he was taking the only logical path he could take.

Last edited by Velocity; 06-19-2019 at 04:01 PM.
  #163  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:02 PM
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Trade your ideals for the chance at increased political power while devotees say you'd never ever do that? True that.
What ideals is he trading in, exactly? I don't really see any that he's giving up, other than perhaps the label of "independent". He's still the same dude.
  #164  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:37 PM
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What ideals is he trading in, exactly?
See post #155

It's cool if people want to handwave or excuse it. I just laugh when supporters gush that he's Constant as the North Star.
  #165  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:19 AM
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I'm not even a Bernie supporter, but he was taking the only logical path he could take.
I'm pretty sure he could just BE a Democrat.

It's not like the Democrats kicked him out or anything. He chose to join when running for Prez, then chose to leave when he lost the nom, now he's choosing to join again.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he could choose to be a Dem whenever he wants, but he doesn't WANT to be a Democrat. He just wants to use the Democratic Party machine to get himself elected President.

It's a free country, so he can try and do that, and I'm free to think he's a miserable shitbag for doing so.
  #166  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:29 AM
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See post #155

It's cool if people want to handwave or excuse it. I just laugh when supporters gush that he's Constant as the North Star.
But again, those aren't ideals. Those are labels. He's not shifting his positions on anything that actually matters in any meaningful way. He's not compromising on Medicare for all, he's not dropping the "socialist" label. He's simply running under the party that best fits his ideology, which is basically all you can do in a first-past-the-post system if you don't want to sabotage those closest to you and empower those furthest from you with a bullshit, vote-splitting third-party run (Ralph, Jill )

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  #167  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:45 AM
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No, it's not all you can do. As stated above, you could actually join and support the party for real instead of becoming an opportunistic political lamprey. If those were "just labels", why did he continually insist that they didn't apply to him throughout his career? He obviously felt they had actual weight to them being just being words. And the idea that he didn't damage those "closest to him" with his primary "we were robbed" bullshit is nonsense.

Last edited by Jophiel; 06-20-2019 at 07:48 AM.
  #168  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:40 AM
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nm

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  #169  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:44 AM
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But again, those aren't ideals. Those are labels. He's not shifting his positions on anything that actually matters in any meaningful way. He's not compromising on Medicare for all, he's not dropping the "socialist" label. He's simply running under the party that best fits his ideology, which is basically all you can do in a first-past-the-post system if you don't want to sabotage those closest to you and empower those furthest from you with a bullshit, vote-splitting third-party run (Ralph, Jill )
He wants the support of the Democratic party. He wants access to mail lists, access to money, access to volunteers, to the party machine.

Those things have been created over decades by Democrats who build the party - and continually build the party (Republicans do the same thing)

He's showing up late to the pot-luck, having brought nothing (maybe the personal gas station size can of Pringles), and stands next to the shrimp puffs Carol brought shoveling them into his mouth while drinking the expensive microbrew brought by Justin - and when people look at him funny, he blames Carol for not sharing and Justin for being selfish. Then he tells everyone at the party that they are corrupt and worthless and he is a better person than they are and makes fun of them for their bourgeois shrimp puffs and microbrews.
  #170  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:51 AM
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I'm pretty sure he could just BE a Democrat.

It's not like the Democrats kicked him out or anything. He chose to join when running for Prez, then chose to leave when he lost the nom, now he's choosing to join again.
He has never chosen to join. This year, he'll have to or he won't get the nomination, by party rule.
  #171  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:57 AM
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Clinton Democrats are called "corporate" to be nice, but I guess we mean "corrupt." The ones in power haven't actually addressed oligopoly or wage stagnation.
But when Dems had power, they pushed through the biggest social program since the Great Society, and only by the skin of their teeth. The fact that other problems remain unfixed is a reason to vote for Democrats, and not for losers like Sanders, Stein, and Nader, who only serve to help Republicans win.
  #172  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:10 AM
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Yes. This is especially true since Congress will need to approve any legislation. In fact, as I suggested above, the more moderate President may have a better chance of getting a radical agenda passed.

I'm dismayed that Bernie supporters and other progressives do not understand this.
Maybe if by 'more moderate' we're talking someone like Kamala Harris and not Joe Biden, who would spend his Presidency and the rest of his life afterwards wondering why his mad negotiating skillz never got him anywhere with Mitch McConnell.
  #173  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:17 AM
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Yeah, unlike those effective dirty politicians, who have done wonders for the people of the USA.

When was the last one of those? 1973?

That excuse for the modern Dem leadership holds no water.

Clinton Democrats are called "corporate" to be nice, but I guess we mean "corrupt." The ones in power haven't actually addressed oligopoly or wage stagnation. This may have influenced the "brick through the window" rationale of a fraction of Trump voters. Bernie may be a goober, despised by the party, but he's at least another brick.
You're not going to have a political revolution - not unless the country's in a dire situation, and even then, there's no guarantee that a revolution would be a net benefit. You either accept that the Democrats are better than the Republicans and live with incremental progress, or you get anything but incremental regression that the Republicans promise to give you.
  #174  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:25 AM
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Maybe if by 'more moderate' we're talking someone like Kamala Harris and not Joe Biden, who would spend his Presidency and the rest of his life afterwards wondering why his mad negotiating skillz never got him anywhere with Mitch McConnell.
Simply having a president in office who can reverse Donald Trump's sinister executive orders would be enough to justify a Biden presidency. But beyond that, one of the worst attributes of Trump and one of the most dangerous consequences of his presidency and the GOP congress is that we live in a time of intensifying polarization, which is lethal to democracy. Biden is 100% right: you may not like your nemeses but in order for a democracy to function, you have to work with them (and sometimes around them) to keep delivering the goods to the people. Since we became addicted to the politics of playing to the political base, collective confidence in our institutions has seriously declined to a very dangerously low level. We should embrace the candidate who stands up for core principles but is willing to occasionally offer acceptable compromises in the short term to get something passed.
  #175  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:31 AM
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What would FDR have done against Trump?

I will vote for Biden in the primary. I believe some people who voted for Trump must vote for the Democrat, and rural voters will be turned off by the "Socialist" label from what we were taught as children about Communism and Socialism. I would love to see Sander's ideas be implemented, but I don't believe he can be elected.
  #176  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:38 AM
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What would FDR have done against Trump?

I will vote for Biden in the primary. I believe some people who voted for Trump must vote for the Democrat, and rural voters will be turned off by the "Socialist" label from what we were taught as children about Communism and Socialism. I would love to see Sander's ideas be implemented, but I don't believe he can be elected.
It's looking like long odds that he even makes it out of the primaries.
  #177  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:46 AM
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It's looking like long odds that he even makes it out of the primaries.
I kind of doubt it myself. Plenty of other - and more electable - fish in the sea.
  #178  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:11 AM
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I do have problems with calling a candidate electable, or not - it's self-fulfilling. Elections have been won by people who were originally labeled unelectable, but caught on somehow. Trump was unelectable until the day he was elected.

That said, it's a primary criterion, probably the main one, this time, however one defines it or who it's applied to.
  #179  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:20 AM
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I do have problems with calling a candidate electable, or not - it's self-fulfilling. Elections have been won by people who were originally labeled unelectable, but caught on somehow. Trump was unelectable until the day he was elected.

That said, it's a primary criterion, probably the main one, this time, however one defines it or who it's applied to.
I think Biden's positions are electable; whether the man is electable remains to be seen. I worry he may not be as time elapses.
  #180  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:58 AM
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You're not going to have a political revolution - not unless the country's in a dire situation, and even then, there's no guarantee that a revolution would be a net benefit. You either accept that the Democrats are better than the Republicans and live with incremental progress, or you get anything but incremental regression that the Republicans promise to give you.
Not all Democrats are the same.

This thread is full of partisans pretending that the Dems are a monolith.

Not all Democrats are the same.
  #181  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:03 AM
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Not all Democrats are the same.

This thread is full of partisans pretending that the Dems are a monolith.

Not all Democrats are the same.
Sure!

But the worst democrat is better than the best republican.

If they weren't, they'd have already recognized how fucked their party is and switched sides.
  #182  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:09 AM
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Maybe if by 'more moderate' we're talking someone like Kamala Harris and not Joe Biden, who would spend his Presidency and the rest of his life afterwards wondering why his mad negotiating skillz never got him anywhere with Mitch McConnell.
What are the chances that the D's, if they get a majority of the Senate, will abolish the 60% McConnell cloture blockage on its opening day?

For many of us it's increasingly clear that abolishing the filibuster is a good step, and should be taken the first time the Senate falls into D hands.. Which of the candidates have come out in favor? Warrem IIRC; any others? (Would all 50 out of 50 (or 51) D Senators vote to abolish? Unfortunately I strongly doubt it.)

Can Mr. Biden keep his support for the rule change secret in his heart, but encourage D's to act after he's elected? This might be the most electable option — given that the Koch-Putin-Hannity Lie Machine will make support for abolishing filibuster seem like treason and socialism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The question we seem faced with in this and other threads is:
Which of two voter groups is most essential for D's to appeal to:
  • 1. Progressives on the left, who will stay home if they think Trump vs Biden is "Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum no reason to vote for either one."
  • 2. Centrist, rather uninformed, and easily confused voters, from ruralish America; people prone to being misled by the Russia-GOP Lie Machine.
Perhaps someone can phrase an OP (with poll?) to ask my question. By common sense I'll guess (2) as the larger group, but have no poll or other evidence to link to.
  #183  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:43 AM
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I think hard progressives just fantasize about having more power than they actually do, or maybe it's that they look at their twitter followers and facebook timeline and just live in a political bubble. What center-line Democrats understand is that there are more radical right wing people in America than there are radical left wing Americans. The radical right can sometimes get away with being who they are because they have the numbers to win if not enough people care to stop them. Not true of the radical left, which is confined mostly to cities in the Northeast or West Coast. Progressives need to work harder and spend more energy selling their message than the right wing does. America is more conservative than liberal. Joe Biden didn't make it this way, but it is.
  #184  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:30 AM
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The only way the far left will understand that is in a general election loss. Their one size fits all political philosophy while admirable in terms of goals, it is just not practical. The biggest and most loyal voting bloc for the Democratic party are African-American women. They tend to be more conservative/moderate. In 2016 when they turned out to support Hillary Clinton's bid some Bernie Sanders supporters, and even campaign surrogates criticised them for being "low-information voters". One Sanders campaign worker said John Lewis - Civil Rights hero - is part of the establishment and "would throw a cat under the bus to help the DNC".

It is that type of abrasiveness that puts people including myself off Bernie Sanders. African-American women were not voting against their self-interest by supporting Hillary Clinton. They were voting for their self-interest because the issue of Civil Rights and the rollback of the progress made is in line with the courts. Supreme Court appointees, Federal judges. 2016 was the election for the judicial future for the next 30 years.

Another thing about Bernie supporters that irritates me is the guilt trap they try to play. Maybe it's just a social media thing but too many times I see support for another candidate rather than Bernie have a group of his supporters shouting "you don't care about the poor" "homelessness is on the rise and you're happy to keep them there" and my favorite "you neo-liberal stooge".

My response is what has Bernie succeeded in doing as a Senator for nigh on 30 years to solve this. You don't have to be President to take on the issues of poverty, housing, tuition costs etc.

Bernie did not even vote until he was 41 years old, and that was for himself. He passed through the Civil Rights movement, the anti-War movement, the Watergate aftermath without casting a vote which for millions of people they only received their inalienable right to cast a vote a few years earlier. For me that is quite shameful.
  #185  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:25 AM
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Good for Bernie.

Now that he's got Americans talking about this stuff, maybe they'll elect someone else who can actually do it.
'Bout sums it up. He's past his sell by date now; I know that the Malaysians elected a 92 year old who had been prez before, but the actuarlla odds aren't too good for someone past the biblical three score and ten.

Of course, Trump might just turn into a Blue Norwegian. With any luck.
  #186  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:54 AM
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The question we seem faced with in this and other threads is:
Which of two voter groups is most essential for D's to appeal to:
  • 1. Progressives on the left, who will stay home if they think Trump vs Biden is "Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum no reason to vote for either one."
  • 2. Centrist, rather uninformed, and easily confused voters, from ruralish America; people prone to being misled by the Russia-GOP Lie Machine.
Perhaps someone can phrase an OP (with poll?) to ask my question. By common sense I'll guess (2) as the larger group, but have no poll or other evidence to link to.
Our best proxies for the two groups (Obama-nons and Obama-Trumps, respectively) show that the former is about twice as large as the latter.

That said, I'm not sure the former is going to be easier to reach. Although this does raise doubts: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...2020-poll.html
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The Democracy Fund’s Voter Study Group tracks the evolving views of thousands of voters who were first interviewed in 2011. To keep their survey sample nationally representative, VSG has added new voters into the mix, but the repeat interviewees still offer a gauge of how various categories of voters are changing with the times.

In its latest report, the VSG illuminates one critical shift hiding beneath Trump’s sturdy support: He has lost significant ground with Obama-to-Trump voters. In the project’s 2016 survey, 85 percent of such voters held a “favorable view of the president.” In its latest one, that figure fell to 66 percent. That may not sound like a lot, but, as we’ve observed, it won’t necessarily take a lot to change the course of history.

“Even small movement among these voters — who represented 9 percent of voters in 2016 — may prove significant heading into the 2020 presidential election,” the VSG’s research director Robert Griffin writes in the report. “Obama-Trump voters are also disproportionately white, non-college educated and, as a result, are likely to be well distributed geographically for the purpose of electoral impact.”
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  #187  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:13 PM
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Simply having a president in office who can reverse Donald Trump's sinister executive orders would be enough to justify a Biden presidency. But beyond that, one of the worst attributes of Trump and one of the most dangerous consequences of his presidency and the GOP congress is that we live in a time of intensifying polarization, which is lethal to democracy.
Mitch McConnell has been every bit as responsible for this as Trump. After Trump goes, Mitch will still be there.
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Biden is 100% right: you may not like your nemeses but in order for a democracy to function, you have to work with them (and sometimes around them) to keep delivering the goods to the people.
I totally agree! However, one's expectations must be grounded in reality. Biden's aren't.
Quote:
Since we became addicted to the politics of playing to the political base, collective confidence in our institutions has seriously declined to a very dangerously low level. We should embrace the candidate who stands up for core principles but is willing to occasionally offer acceptable compromises in the short term to get something passed.
Which Dem candidates above the 1% line wouldn't do this? Bernie, maybe. That's it.
  #188  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:24 PM
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What are the chances that the D's, if they get a majority of the Senate, will abolish the 60% McConnell cloture blockage on its opening day?

For many of us it's increasingly clear that abolishing the filibuster is a good step, and should be taken the first time the Senate falls into D hands.. Which of the candidates have come out in favor? Warrem IIRC; any others?
Inslee has, but he's down in the 0%-1% range.
Quote:
(Would all 50 out of 50 (or 51) D Senators vote to abolish? Unfortunately I strongly doubt it.)
I think this is why the case needs to be made now. It's going to take time to change the minds of Senators.

The general public doesn't care about things like this - well, a fairly small minority of tuned-in voters do, but that's it. They're going to notice whether you kept the campaign promises you made that affect them personally, and vote (or stay home) accordingly in 2022. If the filibuster remains in place, you can see how that's gonna go.
  #189  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:04 PM
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Bernie Sanders would easily poll double digits higher if his so called 'Bernie Bros' supporters weren't such loud-mouthed obnoxious assholes. He has almost no chance without his campaign adopting a blanket 'STFU You Low-Class Cheap Seats Assholes' corporate policy.
...


The other day I went to buy gasoline. The islands were busy (the price was good). There was a car trying to jockey left, right and sideways to get to the pumps with his gas cap side facing the pumps. He was getting into it with a car that had filled up and wanted to leave an open space... one he could easily take and use... but no, he had to scream out his window and try to 'get into it' with the driver trying to leave. At one point, he even got out of his car, puffed out his chest, tensed all his arm muscles, made fists and threatened her.

I backed up and allowed enough room so that she could leave. He then started to scream at me for 'stealing his spot'. (facepalm)

I backed up my car, rolled down the window and did my best to assure him, "No, that spot is all yours. Take it. Take your time, I'm not stealing anything. Please, use it in good health with my blessings".
He then started screaming, "You! You stop talking!!!" and started to repeat the whole puffed chest/tensed arms/fists drill with me. (I started filming at this point with my other hand on a can of mace.)
Eventually 'Cro-Magnon Man' got back in his car and got his gas at the spot he wanted, but not before I took another spot on another island, filled up completely, and left.

Now the point is that he COULD have gassed up and have been out of there easily ten minutes earlier... but no, he had to be a Human Bleeding Hemorrhoid, a screaming big-mouth with bad breath that screwed up everything for everyone around him, including himself.
As I drove away I realized that he had acted just like a 'Bernie Bro'.
  #190  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:11 PM
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Sounds more like a Trump guy. Did he insist the Mexico was going to pay for his fill-up?
  #191  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:18 PM
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... Now the point is that he COULD have gassed up and have been out of there easily ten minutes earlier... but no, he had to be a Human Bleeding Hemorrhoid, a screaming big-mouth with bad breath that screwed up everything for everyone around him, including himself.
As I drove away I realized that he had acted just like a 'Bernie Bro'.
Perhaps. But I'd guess Trumpist would be more likely.

I wish you'd made inquiries so we'd know — Trumpist or BernieBro? "I'm a pollster; please help us, kind sir" would probably not have worked but isn't there some shortcut available? Put on a MAGA hat and see how he reacted?
  #192  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:18 PM
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Perhaps. But I'd guess Trumpist would be more likely.

I wish you'd made inquiries so we'd know — Trumpist or BernieBro? "I'm a pollster; please help us, kind sir" would probably not have worked but isn't there some shortcut available? Put on a MAGA hat and see how he reacted?
I, too believe that fellow to be a Trump voter.
  #193  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mundane Super Hero View Post
Bernie Sanders would easily poll double digits higher if his so called 'Bernie Bros' supporters weren't such loud-mouthed obnoxious assholes. He has almost no chance without his campaign adopting a blanket 'STFU You Low-Class Cheap Seats Assholes' corporate policy.
...


The other day I went to buy gasoline. The islands were busy (the price was good). There was a car trying to jockey left, right and sideways to get to the pumps with his gas cap side facing the pumps. He was getting into it with a car that had filled up and wanted to leave an open space... one he could easily take and use... but no, he had to scream out his window and try to 'get into it' with the driver trying to leave. At one point, he even got out of his car, puffed out his chest, tensed all his arm muscles, made fists and threatened her.

I backed up and allowed enough room so that she could leave. He then started to scream at me for 'stealing his spot'. (facepalm)

I backed up my car, rolled down the window and did my best to assure him, "No, that spot is all yours. Take it. Take your time, I'm not stealing anything. Please, use it in good health with my blessings".
He then started screaming, "You! You stop talking!!!" and started to repeat the whole puffed chest/tensed arms/fists drill with me. (I started filming at this point with my other hand on a can of mace.)
Eventually 'Cro-Magnon Man' got back in his car and got his gas at the spot he wanted, but not before I took another spot on another island, filled up completely, and left.

Now the point is that he COULD have gassed up and have been out of there easily ten minutes earlier... but no, he had to be a Human Bleeding Hemorrhoid, a screaming big-mouth with bad breath that screwed up everything for everyone around him, including himself.
As I drove away I realized that he had acted just like a 'Bernie Bro'.

I am not familiar with Bernie Bros. How does this resemble Bernie-Bro behavior? What do they do exactly in real life?
  #194  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:16 PM
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I am not familiar with Bernie Bros.
They specialize in suits for the frumpy American man.
  #195  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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The question we seem faced with in this and other threads is:
Which of two voter groups is most essential for D's to appeal to:
  • 1. Progressives on the left, who will stay home if they think Trump vs Biden is "Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum no reason to vote for either one."
  • 2. Centrist, rather uninformed, and easily confused voters, from ruralish America; people prone to being misled by the Russia-GOP Lie Machine.
Perhaps someone can phrase an OP (with poll?) to ask my question. By common sense I'll guess (2) as the larger group, but have no poll or other evidence to link to.
The question's not only which group is larger, though. The question's also which group is more likely to be moveable to both show up and, once they've done so, vote for the D.

Both parts of that are relevant -- if you can shift 90% of group A but only 10% of group B, but there are 10 times as many in group B, it would still make sense to aim at group B, for example. But I suspect that none of the percentages/ratios in that example are correct; and don't know what any of them actually are.

What we really need is someone who can appeal to both group A and group B. I don't know whether there's any such person running, though. I was hoping one such would stand out by now; but it's hard to stand out in the current large pack.
  #196  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:29 AM
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I think hard progressives just fantasize about having more power than they actually do, or maybe it's that they look at their twitter followers and facebook timeline and just live in a political bubble. What center-line Democrats understand is that there are more radical right wing people in America than there are radical left wing Americans. The radical right can sometimes get away with being who they are because they have the numbers to win if not enough people care to stop them. Not true of the radical left, which is confined mostly to cities in the Northeast or West Coast. Progressives need to work harder and spend more energy selling their message than the right wing does. America is more conservative than liberal. Joe Biden didn't make it this way, but it is.
You may be right, but statistics don't quite bear you out. The radical right is about 6% of the electorate (according to Fortune Magazine). The radical left is about 2%. Neither one is a significant voting bloc.

39% of US citizens live on the coast.

Here's a Gallup chart from 2017 of self-stated voter slant. There is a long steady trend upward for "liberal" over the past decade, with most of this being Democrats changing their position from moderate to liberal.

It's an interesting chart. One of the more striking findings is that men are a LOT more conservative-identifying than women. I think this is has only increased since 2017.

Last edited by Ulfreida; 06-22-2019 at 11:30 AM.
  #197  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:46 AM
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...
Let me make one other thing clear, if it wasn't for Bernie Sanders, do you really believe corporate media would be even mentioning universal healthcare, free college tuition, or raising the minimum wage for the first time in a decade? I don't, and I don't think any rational person would either.
Yes to universal healthcare and raising the minimum wage. Those ideas have been around forever. Maybe no to free college tuition, but i don't support that anyway.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I don't support Sanders because he hasn't convinced me of his ability to run an administration, pass a legislative agenda and get elected in the first place. Supporting him isn't my job but convincing me is his job. So far, he's not doing a great job with me or most other Democrats, to look at recent polling. Nonsense like "you're not a real liberal" or "blah blah cuck" probably isn't going to do much to help so you should probably spend that energy telling Sanders to up his game and figure out where his disconnect is.
yup

And all those reasons that were quoted several times, except i don't think Bernie has been an effective legislator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
...
4. He can't win the general election. The portfolio of nasty dirty trick the GOP has ready for him will make him the biggest loser since Dukakis.
and so much this. Atheist communist Jew. Yeah, that's going to bring people to the polls. Not.

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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
...
If it's Trump vs. Sanders, Trump will be re-elected...
yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
Personally I will (wont vote for Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.), but as a Sanders supporter let's say no. And that should scare you, especially if you're a centrist democratic in washington. That should terrify you, and it's the truth.
...
yeah, it's scary to know just how little the radical left gives a shit about America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
Heres my stance on the issue. There is no viable leftist party in the United States. Democrats for the most part, are just as bad as Republicans. ...
you know, if we were talking about Hillary vs. Romney, you'd have a point. But the Republican nominee will be trump.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
I don't think it indicates a lack of care for marginalized people...
okay. You're wrong, but your are free to think whatever nonsense your like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
..
2) Kinda a jab here, but Bernies been proposing the same shit he's proposing now when Warren was a registered republican. But none the less I agree.
...
Yes, that is a jab. A jab at Bernie. He's been proposing all this stuff forever, and what has he accomplished? Jack shit, that's what.

The primary reason i don't support Bernie is because he's been an ineffective senator, he has almost no adminstrative experience, he doesn't know anything about foreign policy, and he's one of the few people running who might actually be worse than Donald trump at actually being president.
  #198  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:51 PM
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Sounds more like a Trump guy. Did he insist the Mexico was going to pay for his fill-up?


His distinctive Mexican accent on the words that came out in Spanish made it clear that he was no friend of POTUS.


That said, how he screwed up The Entire System of people trying to just get gasoline was 100% 'Bernie Bro'.
  #199  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:53 PM
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They specialize in suits for the frumpy American man.

Those fat bastards fit in suits? Sounds like an awful waste of bolts of cloth.
  #200  
Old 06-26-2019, 05:55 PM
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In answer to the OP: Because he is irritating as fuck. My god, if I have to listen to that voice for four or even eight years...
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