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  #251  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...people, including you, are failing to acknowledge the scale of the problem.
Are we? Am I? I don't think so.


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Close most of the camps and bring the remaining ones up to a defined, minimum standard and open them up to oversight
Sorry, according to the link in post #1 of this thread, doing this would still result in "concentration camps"


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Done and dusted in 30 days. But this isn't a rational administration. So what answer are you really after?
I'm after what your opinion is, that's it. I'm for catch and release, no problems with that.
  #252  
Old 06-22-2019, 12:36 AM
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Are we? Am I? I don't think so.
...what "you think" and what you express are two very different things.

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Sorry, according to the link in post #1 of this thread, doing this would still result in "concentration camps"
And this is a prime example. If you were debating in good faith you never would have said such a ridiculous thing. I wasn't setting a definition. I wasn't even enumerating policy. I added a couple of qualifiers to an already simplified position.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing.

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I'm after what your opinion is, that's it.
No you weren't. I gave you my opinion: that wasn't enough for you. You demanded an itemized timeline, step by step over the next year, detailing concrete and measurable ways I would "alleviate the suffering in the facilities." You even "made me a nice table" to make it easier for me.

If you wanted my opinion you would have stopped when I gave it to you. You are arguing for the sake of arguing.

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I'm for catch and release, no problems with that.
Catch and release is the answer. We have objective evidence that, by and large, it works. But it isn't a solution we can use to "fix everything immediately" as you demand unless the people with the ability to implement that policy decide to do that.

And that's where we are at right now. The only solution is through the courts, through raising public awareness, through pressuring those that are in power to make changes, to ensure the security of the next elections and to vote the fuckers out of office.

The administration are in court right now arguing that soap and toothpaste aren't necessarily required in order for detention centers to be "safe and sanitary." It isn't because they don't have the money to do this. Its because this is an entirely manufactured position. Instead of "catching and release" they started to detain before adequate infrastructure was built. That wasn't an accident. That isn't incompetence. This isn't under-funding. Its by design.

And if you don't understand that then you don't understand the scale and the scope of the issues at play here.
  #253  
Old 06-22-2019, 12:39 AM
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Four toddlers were so severely ill and neglected at a U.S. Border Patrol facility in McAllen, Texas, that lawyers forced the government to hospitalize them last week.

The children, all under age 3 with teenage mothers or guardians, were feverish, coughing, vomiting and had diarrhea, immigration attorneys told HuffPost on Friday. Some of the toddlers and infants were refusing to eat or drink. One 2-year-old’s eyes were rolled back in her head, and she was “completely unresponsive” and limp, according to Toby Gialluca, a Florida-based attorney.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/four-...b07ae90d9cfe4f

...close the camps down.
  #254  
Old 06-22-2019, 01:11 AM
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Close those damn camps down, or the next term you hear will be "War Crimes Tribunal".
  #255  
Old 06-22-2019, 04:40 AM
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Ok. If someone stows away on an airplane and makes it to the US, I concede that we should take care of that person until his/her application is approved or denied. We should provide that person with $5000 a month in tax-free income during that period.
Actually, airplane stowaways are sometimes put on the next plane going back to where they came from.

But hey, I've long since given up on you understanding nuance, context, or the concept of looking at cases individually and you're resorting to sarcasm when someone doesn't give you a neat, one-size-fits-all rule.

And nowhere near $5k a month is given or required. As you damn well know.
  #256  
Old 06-22-2019, 07:05 AM
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https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/a-...ntion-facility

Malnourished kids wathching over other abused kids.
"A little boy...he had no diapers on, he should have had a diaper on, he was two years old. And when I asked why he didn't have diapers on I was told that he didn't need it. He immediately urinated, and he was in the care of another child."
  #257  
Old 06-22-2019, 07:24 AM
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Not everyone who voted for Trump is a hard core MAGA douche. Some voted for him, ignorantly, for the laughs and the finger to the system. Those guys aren't in love with Trump, and the only way this does not cost Trump votes is if the so-called administration can keep it under wraps. Pictures of it would look like pictures from, you know the term, concentration camps.
  #258  
Old 06-22-2019, 07:36 AM
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This will spill out into the open eventually. Either some activist within the system will leak pictures, or the system just completely breaks down and overwhelms the bureaucracy to the point where they have to decides who stays, who goes. They'll just start releasing people into the open and from there, the narratives of what's happening will become more and more frequent, probably with some visual evidence in the form of sick and emaciated, barely alive souls to support it. The Trumpets will still say "Well it's their fault for coming here in the first place." Maybe the center right is marginally more humanitarian.

Last edited by asahi; 06-22-2019 at 07:37 AM.
  #259  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:30 AM
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[19] On June 26, 1981, the Attorney General sent a memorandum with attached decision packets to the President of the United States. One of the packets was designated as the "Cuban/Haitian Problem". Under that heading in the attached paper, Option 1 ["Status Quo"] was not recommended by any of the advisors, Option 2 ["Limited Interdiction plus Status Quo Non-detention"] was recommended only by the Department of Transportation and Frank Hodsol, and Option 3, ["Interdiction and Detention"] was recommended by the Department of State, Justice, Treasury, Labor and HHS. This option, which ultimately was the policy announced by the Reagan Administration was analyzed as follows:

"Detention could deter continuing illegal immigration reducing adverse community impact ... But detention risks camp overflowing because of procedural delays... Detention could create an appearance of `concentration camps' filled largely by blacks."


Louis v. Nelson, 544 F. Supp. 973 (S.D. Fla. 1982)
  #260  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Because the administration and the people who voted for him hate poor brown people. I thought that was obvious?
I think it is obvious, too, and that is the most concentration campy aspect of this whole situation. Border crossings are historically low. There isn't an out-of-control situation that developed spontaneously into this mess. No, we have had a hateful demagogue going around telling people that Mexicans are Rapists, they're all drug dealers, they're contagious, they are murderers.

In response to- asking for asylum. Legally. They are judged to be 'lying', en masse and a priori, and locked up in shit conditions on that basis. Yeah, I think the whole thing is motivated by hate. It obviously isn't a legitimate law enforcement operation that got out of hand- it is intended to inflict suffering.

Still not sure why it is legal.

PS. I live in an eternal time crunch. Can't always respond quickly.
  #261  
Old 06-23-2019, 07:45 AM
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This will spill out into the open eventually.
That's what's going on bit by bit. Just yesterday, this video depicting an administration lawyer went a wee bit viral. In it, she argues that the requirement for "safe and sanitary conditions" does not mean that we necessarily need beds, soap, or toothbrushes. Anyone not currently flashing back to "Eichmann in Jerusalem" probably hasn't read or even heard of the book, because this is the banality of evil on full display. Someone "just doing her job" and "just following orders" to justify keeping children in conditions that are barely fit for livestock.

Thankfully, the judges were having absolutely none of it. But it's still very disturbing that this is an argument being made.

From two days ago, here's the New York Times:
Children as young as 7 and 8, many of them wearing clothes caked with snot and tears, are caring for infants they’ve just met, the lawyers said. Toddlers without diapers are relieving themselves in their pants. Teenage mothers are wearing clothes stained with breast milk.

Most of the young detainees have not been able to shower or wash their clothes since they arrived at the facility, those who visited said. They have no access to toothbrushes, toothpaste or soap.

“There is a stench,” said Elora Mukherjee, director of the Immigrants’ Rights Clinic at Columbia Law School, one of the lawyers who visited the facility. “The overwhelming majority of children have not bathed since they crossed the border.”
(To the people who think "concentration camp" is inappropriate, what would you call this? Again, rhetorical question, I really don't care.)

Anyways, the progressives in congress have released a statement opposing the new supplementary funding bill:
"These radicalized, criminal agencies are destroying families and killing innocent children," they said in their statement. "It is absolutely unconscionable to even consider giving one more dollar to support this President's deportation force that openly commits human rights abuses and refuses to be held accountable to the American people."

"That is why in good conscience," they continued, "we cannot support this supplemental funding bill, which gives even more money to ICE and CBP and continues to support a fundamentally cruel and broken immigration system."
  #262  
Old 06-23-2019, 07:51 AM
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(Whoops, forgot a link for that last part: https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...sley-and-tlaib )
  #263  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:40 AM
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That's what's going on bit by bit. Just yesterday, this video depicting an administration lawyer went a wee bit viral. In it, she argues that the requirement for "safe and sanitary conditions" does not mean that we necessarily need beds, soap, or toothbrushes. Anyone not currently flashing back to "Eichmann in Jerusalem" probably hasn't read or even heard of the book, because this is the banality of evil on full display. Someone "just doing her job" and "just following orders" to justify keeping children in conditions that are barely fit for livestock.

Thankfully, the judges were having absolutely none of it. But it's still very disturbing that this is an argument being made.

From two days ago, here's the New York Times:
Children as young as 7 and 8, many of them wearing clothes caked with snot and tears, are caring for infants they’ve just met, the lawyers said. Toddlers without diapers are relieving themselves in their pants. Teenage mothers are wearing clothes stained with breast milk.

Most of the young detainees have not been able to shower or wash their clothes since they arrived at the facility, those who visited said. They have no access to toothbrushes, toothpaste or soap.

“There is a stench,” said Elora Mukherjee, director of the Immigrants’ Rights Clinic at Columbia Law School, one of the lawyers who visited the facility. “The overwhelming majority of children have not bathed since they crossed the border.”
(To the people who think "concentration camp" is inappropriate, what would you call this? Again, rhetorical question, I really don't care.)

Anyways, the progressives in congress have released a statement opposing the new supplementary funding bill:
"These radicalized, criminal agencies are destroying families and killing innocent children," they said in their statement. "It is absolutely unconscionable to even consider giving one more dollar to support this President's deportation force that openly commits human rights abuses and refuses to be held accountable to the American people."

"That is why in good conscience," they continued, "we cannot support this supplemental funding bill, which gives even more money to ICE and CBP and continues to support a fundamentally cruel and broken immigration system."
I would actually submit that Trump would be better off having an activist leak the pictures. That way they can sustain short-term outrage and embarrassment and maybe actually take the situation more seriously. If they don't, what'll likely happen is that the system totally gets overwhelmed and then they have to start releasing people en mass, or they simply give up trying to apprehend them in the first place. In other words, it results in complete chaos. Cities and towns become overwhelmed with refugees like what happened in Europe with the migrants storming into cities and towns by the tens of thousands. Trump would lose with moderates and progressives who think he's an inhumane sadistic fuck, and he would also lose with his base and right-leaning independents because he would be exposed as incompetent and a fraud on his signature issue.

Last edited by asahi; 06-23-2019 at 09:40 AM.
  #264  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:34 AM
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This is a very distressing situation and I feel absolutely powerless. I'm losing sleep because I don't know how to help.

I'm feeling a powerful urge to just get in my car and drive to Texas to at least help with caring for the babies, but I doubt I could get anywhere close.

This sickens me. This is NOT making America great again.
  #265  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:45 AM
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You aren't without power here, the ACLU is fighting this and you can help them. It may seem indirect and fruitless, but it will not be.
  #266  
Old 06-23-2019, 05:25 PM
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This whole situation is disgusting. When we get that morally empty shitbag out of office the next DOJ had better aggressively prosecute every single person who contributed to these camps. Many of the people involved in this shit need to die in prison; not just to punish them for their evil, to to serve as a warning for the next set of Nazi wannabes.

You gotta think even many Trump supporters would be shocked by what's happening--it's just that right wing news is hiding it from them. I bet this is the issue that finally finishes Trump, once it becomes more widely known.
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  #267  
Old 06-23-2019, 06:01 PM
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I don't think that running concentration camps is going to lose Trump any support. It may motivate other people to come out and vote against him, but his supporters are clearly ready to excuse him, and will go back to old tired rhetoric like 'they shouldn't have come here illegally' when defending the practice of imprisoning children and not even providing them soap to bathe with.

Also, it's darkly amusing to look back at Trump supporters in the past who defended him with things along the lines of 'he may not on the best of terms with Mexicans, but he's not creating concentration camps, stop exaggerating'. While I don't think there was that much on this board, I definitely remember seeing and hearing that. And on this board there are things like the below from just two years ago that make you wonder what's next,

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=828153 (2017)
Quote:
Trump has not suspended the Constitution. He has not declared martial law. He has not proclaimed himself president in perpetuum. He is not rounding people up into barb wire detention camps. He is not having critics assassinated. He is not having protesters machine gunned on the streets. He has not shut down newspapers, magazines and television stations.
  #268  
Old 06-23-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Actually, airplane stowaways are sometimes put on the next plane going back to where they came from.

But hey, I've long since given up on you understanding nuance, context, or the concept of looking at cases individually and you're resorting to sarcasm when someone doesn't give you a neat, one-size-fits-all rule.

And nowhere near $5k a month is given or required. As you damn well know.
And I've given up on you understanding that policy should not be made based on unlikely occurrences of situations. Unless you want to argue that so many people are sneaking into the US stowing away on airplanes that we need to take that into account when forming policies.
  #269  
Old 06-23-2019, 07:16 PM
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Most immigrants - of any sort - are not coming across the US/Mexican border. They're coming in via other methods, such as air travel.

The most common route of entry for illegal migrants is not dashing across the US/Mexican border. It's coming to the US on a legitimate visa and overstaying the limit of that visa. Basically, they come here for whatever reason and simply don't go home.

Focusing on the southwestern border is a diversion, nothing more. If you could stop every person coming across that US/Mexican border you would not stop illegal immigration.
  #270  
Old 06-23-2019, 07:31 PM
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Most immigrants - of any sort - are not coming across the US/Mexican border. They're coming in via other methods, such as air travel.

The most common route of entry for illegal migrants is not dashing across the US/Mexican border. It's coming to the US on a legitimate visa and overstaying the limit of that visa. Basically, they come here for whatever reason and simply don't go home.

Focusing on the southwestern border is a diversion, nothing more. If you could stop every person coming across that US/Mexican border you would not stop illegal immigration.
Yes, I know. I never said otherwise. I know how to read statistics. My point was, people flying into the US have visas and permissions to come to the US. They won't be stopped at the "border" of Dulles Airport and thrown into detention facilities.

My question was, people who apply for refugee status (which is what they need to do when outside of the US, according to my reading, unless I'm wrong), do we take them into custody and bring them to the US? Or do they fend for themselves until the US makes a decision on their status?
  #271  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:27 PM
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In the past people could present themselves at the physical US border (US/Mexico or US/Canada) and ask for asylum. In the past, the practice was to take their information, give them a court date, and release them into the general population. MOST of them turned up for their court date.

In other words, crossing the US border without permission to ask for asylum is perfectly legal. It is not a criminal act. Of course, once a person does that they are then obligated to show up for a hearing to determine whether or not their request has merit, at which point either they are granted permission to stay or are told to leave. Failure to leave after one's claim has been denied, that's when you start to edge into illegality but it is still no more than a misdemeanor.

The other way to wind up in trouble is to wait more than a year after arrival in the US to seek asylum - but that would not seem to apply to any of the folks currently being held in overcrowded, unsanitary "facilities" under discussion here.

To answer your question a bit more specifically - about 90% of people seeking asylum in the US apply abroad, which is hardly surprising given only a few nations in the world share a physical border with the US. The remaining 10% ask after physically arriving in the US. Which is a legal way to ask for asylum, regardless of whether those people came on a visa of some sort or just walked across/stowed away on a vehicle. Those 10% are allowed to "fend for themselves" as you put it in the sense that until recently they weren't locked up.

Refugees who applied for asylum outside the US can ask for a loan to pay for transportation to the US if they can't provide it themselves. Those who walked here, obviously, have no need of such.

The past year or so has seen more mass movement of people at any time since WWII. Everyone's immigration system is overloaded, including those that process asylum seekers and refugees. That's still no excuse for the overcrowding, the lack of sanitary facilities and supplies, and the other inhumane treatment.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-23-2019 at 09:29 PM.
  #272  
Old 06-25-2019, 05:18 AM
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So, we finally have some expert speaking up to say that AOC was wrong about concentration camps.

It's... sigh... The US Holocaust Museum.

But pay close attention to what they actually say, and you get a little closer look at what's going on:

Quote:
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary. That position has repeatedly and unambiguously been made clear in the Museum’s official statement on the matter – a statement that is reiterated and reaffirmed now. The link to the Museum’s statement is here.

The Museum further reiterates that a statement ascribed to a Museum staff historian regarding recent attempts to analogize the situation on the United States southern border to concentration camps in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s does not reflect the position of the Museum.

The Museum deeply regrets any offense to Holocaust survivors and others that may have been engendered by any statement ascribed to a Museum historian in a personal capacity.
Firstly: wait, that's not what I just said. That's not even close to what I just said! Where did I get the idea that the Holocaust Museum was clapping back at AOC?

Oh, NYPost, you crafty ol' lying shitbags.

"Erbelding and reps for the museum did not immediately respond to requests for comment from The Post."

I wonder why.

But that's not the only awful thing here. Look closer at the actual statement. "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary." What the fuck kind of statement is that? What, exactly, does "never again" mean, then? Is this mission accomplished, then, if nothing is analogous to the holocaust? Can we pack it all in, and stop banging on about it?

Probably not, because... the holocaust museum has an exhibit on Syria. Rightfully, in my eyes, but how is this not drawing parallels to the holocaust? It's a holocaust museum. Why have this if you can't create analogies? Why have the Early Warning Project if historians show up, alarm bells blazing, and you reply like this?

I wonder if all this has anything to do with this?

Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- President Donald J. Trump appointed Howard M. Lorber as Chairman of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Lorber is the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Vector Group and Chairman of Douglas Elliman.
Nah, couldn't be.


Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-25-2019 at 05:19 AM.
  #273  
Old 06-25-2019, 09:05 AM
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Government moves migrant kids after AP exposes bad treatment
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The U.S. government has removed most of the children from a remote Border Patrol station in Texas following reports that more than 300 children were detained there, caring for each other with inadequate food, water and sanitation.

Just 30 children remained at the station outside El Paso Monday, said Rep. Veronica Escobar after her office was briefed on the situation by an official with Customs and Border Protection.

Attorneys who visited Clint last week said older children were trying to take care of infants and toddlers, The Associated Press first reported Thursday. They described a 4-year-old with matted hair who had gone without a shower for days, and hungry, inconsolable children struggling to soothe one another. Some had been locked for three weeks inside the facility, where 15 children were sick with the flu and another 10 were in medical quarantine.
...

Although it’s unclear where all the children held at Clint have been moved, Escobar said some were sent to another facility on the north side of El Paso called Border Patrol Station 1. Escobar said it’s a temporary site with roll-out mattresses, showers, medical facilities and air conditioning.

But Clara Long, an attorney who interviewed children at Border Patrol Station 1 last week, said conditions were not necessarily better there.

“One boy I spoke with said his family didn’t get mattresses or blankets for the first two nights, and he and his mom came down with a fever,” said Long, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch. “He said there were no toothbrushes, and it was very, very cold.”
....
My bold.

Texas is a big state. They oughta be able to put those criminals kids where NO ONE will be able to find them, fer Pete's sake.
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  #274  
Old 06-25-2019, 09:33 AM
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They oughta be able to put those criminals kids where NO ONE will be able to find them, fer Pete's sake.
Maybe you meant "future terrorists". Because at least some are now radicalized.
  #275  
Old 06-25-2019, 09:44 AM
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I think the camps help mobilize Trump's base, who are white nationalists. His re-election strategy is clearly to keep them fired up and engaged to either win another electoral college victory, or for it to be close enough that he can claim that he actually won and encourage his violent and racist base to refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of his successor.
  #276  
Old 06-25-2019, 12:17 PM
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Also, quick meta note.

I'd rather we not discuss whether or not we're actually running concentration camps at the borders. At least if you don't have at least some form of expertise (say, a historian, or a holocaust expert) to weigh in with. ...
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but ask and ye shall receive. The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum released a statement that rejected the sort of usage of the "concentration camps" label that your thread makes use of:

Quote:
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary. That position has repeatedly and unambiguously been made clear in the Museum’s official statement on the matter – a statement that is reiterated and reaffirmed now. The link to the Museum’s statement is here.

The Museum further reiterates that a statement ascribed to a Museum staff historian regarding recent attempts to analogize the situation on the United States southern border to concentration camps in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s does not reflect the position of the Museum.

The Museum deeply regrets any offense to Holocaust survivors and others that may have been engendered by any statement ascribed to a Museum historian in a personal capacity.
The Museum's earlier statement referred to it as a "rhetorical cudgel":

Quote:
Nazis seem to be everywhere these days. I don’t mean self-proclaimed neo-Nazis. I’m talking about folks being labeled as Nazis, Hitler, Gestapo, Goering — take your pick — by their political opponents. American politicians from across the ideological spectrum, influential media figures, and ordinary people on social media casually use Holocaust terminology to bash anyone or any policy with which they disagree. The takedown is so common that it’s even earned its own term, reductio ad Hitlerum.

...

Perhaps most popular this year have been accusations of “Nazism” and “fascism” against federal authorities for their treatment of children separated from their parents at the US border with Mexico. “Remember, other governments put kids in camps,” is a typical rallying cry from some immigration advocates. Even a person as well versed in the tenuous balance between national security and compassion, the former head of the CIA, took to Twitter to criticize federal policies toward illegal migrants using a black and white photo of the iconic train tracks leading the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center.

...


Careless Holocaust analogies may demonize, demean, and intimidate their targets. But there is a cost for all of us because they distract from the real issues challenging our society, because they shut down productive, thoughtful discourse. At a time when our country needs dialogue more than ever, it is especially dangerous to exploit the memory of the Holocaust as a rhetorical cudgel. We owe the survivors more than that. And we owe ourselves more than that.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 06-25-2019 at 12:18 PM.
  #277  
Old 06-25-2019, 12:30 PM
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Was that post intended to be a defense of some sort?
  #278  
Old 06-25-2019, 12:49 PM
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It should be noted that the Holocaust Museum's statement doesn't actually criticize any particular comparison (such as AOC's), just "attempts to analogize the situation on the United States southern border to concentration camps in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s". The USHM doesn't say anything about analogizing the migrant camps to concentration camps in general.
  #279  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but ask and ye shall receive. The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum released a statement that rejected the sort of usage of the "concentration camps" label that your thread makes use of:



The Museum's earlier statement referred to it as a "rhetorical cudgel":
The topic is "concentration camp", not "holocaust", despite your attempts to conflate the two. Who here has compared what is happening to those children a "holocaust"?
  #280  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:31 PM
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...and if it isn't the Holocaust, there is nothing to see here, nothing to discuss, and we can all just forget about the 50,000+ civilians detained in conditions so poor that over 30 have died and news of the treatment is causing national outrage. It isn't the Holocaust, folks, so the detention of all these thousands, most of whom have committed no crime whatsoever, simply has a weight of zero.

Jesus, can't even hold 50,000 and counting innocent civilians in shit conditions, without blankets, soap, showers, until they get sick and die, without some liberal comparing it to the Holocaust. Just move on because this is TOTALLY NORMAL if it isn't literally the Holocaust.
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  #281  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:40 PM
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The topic is "concentration camp", not "holocaust", despite your attempts to conflate the two. Who here has compared what is happening to those children a "holocaust"?
Mine was not an attempt to conflate "holocaust" with "concentration camp" but to share an opinion about the labeling of migrant detention centers as "concentration camps", which, AFAICT, is just the Left's latest attempt to label things it doesn't like as Nazis / "literally Hitler". If they (the migrant detention centers) are so bad, one would think you wouldn't need to resort to a "rhetorical cudgel" and Godwinizing the discussion to make your case. Just tell us about how they have the wrong flavor of toothpaste and leave the nazis out of it. Is that so hard?
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:55 PM
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No, they're concentration camps.

Did you support Bush's use of torture openly or did you pretend that what you supported wasn't torture?
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  #283  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Mine was not an attempt to conflate "holocaust" with "concentration camp" but to share an opinion about the labeling of migrant detention centers as "concentration camps", which, AFAICT, is just the Left's latest attempt to label things it doesn't like as Nazis / "literally Hitler". If they (the migrant detention centers) are so bad, one would think you wouldn't need to resort to a "rhetorical cudgel" and Godwinizing the discussion to make your case. Just tell us about how they have the wrong flavor of toothpaste and leave the nazis out of it. Is that so hard?
Someone here keeps bringing up Nazis, Hitler and The Holocaust, and I don't think it is us lefties.
  #284  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:10 PM
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Someone here keeps bringing up Nazis, Hitler and The Holocaust, and I don't think it is us lefties.
Did you read the OP? It mentions "the nazis" twice.
  #285  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:13 PM
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Just tell us about how they have the wrong flavor of toothpaste and leave the nazis out of it. Is that so hard?
Even if he was gassing them, I'm sure you'd argue Trump was using a different flavour of poison gas than the Nazis.
  #286  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:17 PM
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Do note that I cite the holocaust museum myself - and bring up quite a few times in post 272. 4 posts later, we have someone making the precise mistake I just pointed out. Does Ditka remark on how deeply uncomfortable it is to say "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary" while simultaneously holding exhibits on "early warning signs" and the Syrian genocide?

No points for guessing.

Meanwhile, in the news that doesn't come straight from a Trump appointee, here's Newsweek, with a long, long, long list of academics who agree that these are concentration camps.

Also, as pointed out upthread, any accusation of "Godwinizing" is deeply ironic, as Mike Godwin has endorsed AOC's take and taken Chris Hayes to task for hedging. Let's waste no more time on that nonsense.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-25-2019 at 03:18 PM.
  #287  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:23 PM
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Just tell us about how they have the wrong flavor of toothpaste and leave the nazis out of it. Is that so hard?
Yes, in fact it IS hard to tell you about how the detainees have the wrong flavor of toothpaste because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY TOOTHPASTE!

And I, as someone with claim to being being Jewish and who's father's family was nearly wiped out in the Holocaust, have NO PROBLEM comparing the "facilities" on our southern borders with the general term "concentration camp".

But do carry on as if nothing terrible or even merely bad is happening, done by your government, in your name, with your tax dollars.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-25-2019 at 03:23 PM.
  #288  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:35 PM
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Just tell us about how they have the wrong flavor of toothpaste and leave the nazis out of it. Is that so hard?
Ditka, serious question. Are you aware of the conditions in the camps? Because the sheer flippancy of this statement tells me one of two things:

1. You don't actually know anything about what's going on in the camps at the border. In which case: I welcome you to read the thread, or even just the very first link in the very first post of the thread. In this case, I welcome your apology for saying something so incredibly insensitive and wrong.

2. You know, and you are so unbothered by it that you don't see a problem using these kids as the butt of jokes.

I implore your basic human decency to look into the conditions, and just... not say shit like this. It's not funny. It's not cute. It's propagandizing for concentration camps by downplaying and mocking what's happening to the victims.

I know you and I have our disagreements, but I feel like "children being kept in unsafe, inhumane conditions" shouldn't be a partisan issue to be mocked.
  #289  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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I don't think that running concentration camps is going to lose Trump any support. It may motivate other people to come out and vote against him, but his supporters are clearly ready to excuse him, and will go back to old tired rhetoric like 'they shouldn't have come here illegally' when defending the practice of imprisoning children and not even providing them soap to bathe with.

Also, it's darkly amusing to look back at Trump supporters in the past who defended him with things along the lines of 'he may not on the best of terms with Mexicans, but he's not creating concentration camps, stop exaggerating'. While I don't think there was that much on this board, I definitely remember seeing and hearing that. And on this board there are things like the below from just two years ago that make you wonder what's next,

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=828153 (2017)
I agree. As I posted on another thread, here's what is next:

"Hey, you can't call these concentration camps! That is a term reserved ONLY for those in WWII Germany! And besides, our centers are not using Zyklon B gas. We use only VX organophosphorus gas, which is much more efficient and humane. And the sub-humans are transported to OUR centers using trucks not trains. So it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT"
  #290  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Did you read the OP? It mentions "the nazis" twice.
And your post mentioned Nazis too, which is why I have a hard time taking it seriously.
  #291  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:56 PM
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When the arguments from the GOP start to come down to "We're not EXACTLY like the Nazis"... You know we're nearing the bottom of the barrel.
  #292  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:03 PM
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Ditka, serious question. Are you aware of the conditions in the camps? ...
I'm aware of some of the reports of conditions in the "camps". I don't generally find those sources terribly credible. I think they, like you, have an agenda they're propagandizing for and pushing, and they'll pick a couple of anecdotes and try to pretend / imply that those exceptions represent conditions generally.
  #293  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:06 PM
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When the arguments from the GOP start to come down to "We're not EXACTLY like the Nazis"... You know we're nearing the bottom of the barrel.
Out of curiosity, do we have any GOP elected officials left who, y'know, fought Nazis? Abroad or at home? (Obviously WWII vets are very old at this point, but what about people who fought "Illinois Nazis" and the like?)
  #294  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:07 PM
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So... "Fake news"

Gotcha. Sleep well tonight.
  #295  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:07 PM
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When the arguments from the GOP start to come down to "We're not EXACTLY like the Nazis"... You know we're nearing the bottom of the barrel.
When the arguments from the Dems start off "You are EXACTLY like the Nazis" there's not much further down to go.

Regards,
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  #296  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:15 PM
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I'm aware of some of the reports of conditions in the "camps". I don't generally find those sources terribly credible. I think they, like you, have an agenda they're propagandizing for and pushing, and they'll pick a couple of anecdotes and try to pretend / imply that those exceptions represent conditions generally.
The banality of evil.
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  #297  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:20 PM
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When the arguments from the Dems start off "You are EXACTLY like the Nazis" there's not much further down to go.
Don't underestimate yourself. We've learned not to long ago.
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  #298  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'm aware of some of the reports of conditions in the "camps". I don't generally find those sources terribly credible. I think they, like you, have an agenda they're propagandizing for and pushing, and they'll pick a couple of anecdotes and try to pretend / imply that those exceptions represent conditions generally.
What sources would you find credible?
  #299  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:21 PM
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When the arguments from the Dems start off "You are EXACTLY like the Nazis" there's not much further down to go.

Regards,
Shodan
And yet that's not what is happening.

"These are concentration camps"

"WHAT! This is nothing like the Nazis! You are an idiot!"


That's the conversation that's happening.
  #300  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:27 PM
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Well, at least now we have a good reminder of what the Trump-supporter's response is - "It's all fake news". Look, while I understand that this is an opinion that some people hold, the fact that some people hold it does not make it in any sense a serious opinion worthy of respect or further acknowledgement and I think we'd all do well to not give it more respect than it deserves.

Remember, best practices when dealing with - let's just call them "things that are definitely not true", because I don't know if the error is intentional or not - is to restate the truth without repeating the untrue statement, so as not to trigger the "illusory truth" effect. While I'm surely not accusing anyone in the thread of lying, this article dealing with lies is still very useful when talking about how to deal with statements that are simply false:
Instead of directly repeating a false claim, consider this framing instead: “The facts are X, but some have falsely claimed Y. Let’s focus on X.” This is a simple solution that journalists, social media managers, fact-checking websites, and individuals can use to make sure that we spread truth, not lies.
This advice is especially valuable if you're worried that there's an ongoing propaganda war, and that powerful people are trying to get others to believe the thing that isn't true. Like that the conditions at the camps are not as bad as countless independent (and DHS!) reports have made them out to be.

The truth is that they not only are that bad, but that the specific joke in question refers not only to a report that children don't have access to toothpaste (or soap, or diapers), but also the a lawyer from the trump administration arguing that these things are not necessary under existing law.
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