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  #101  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Again we have to through this date crap?

People don't recall the exact date something traumatic happened because the date, itself is not relevant to the experience. When people DO recall the date, it's almost invariably only because they can connect that experience to something else or if they've seen and heard the date repeatedly.
Ever hear of that holiday called Christmas? All department stores decorate their show floors for the holiday and play Christmas music. Surely, Carroll could have remembered those details and narrowed down the dates when it could have happened.
  #102  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:00 PM
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Ever hear of that holiday called Christmas? All department stores decorate their show floors for the holiday and play Christmas music. Surely, Carroll could have remembered those details and narrowed down the dates when it could have happened.
I know this does not help, but that is not how trauma works for everyone. I have a great memory for trauma. I can tell you what I was wearing the night I had a friend die in my arms. I can tell you what everything felt like, smelled like, I can list her injuries, and tell you what I said.

But I never remember the date it happened. I know it happened not too far from exams, and it was warm out, but not much more than that. I do not remember what the car looked like that hit her, or the plate number.

The simple fact is, you don’t know how your brain will deal with trauma until you experience it (but I hope you don’t), but more and more police are taking training in forensic interviewing trauma victims.
  #103  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:13 PM
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I don't know the first time my ex hit me, but I remember the last. Memory in trauma varies so much from person to person.

Also? We know Trump lies ALL THE TIME about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. The only times he seems to tell the truth is when it falls out of his ever-flapping mouth by accident. I mean, there's a limit to words in the English language and an even smaller limit to his vocabulary, so at some point he's going to blurt out the truth because he can't shut up. Anyway, why should he be given any benefit of the doubt by the TWENTY-SECOND woman to accuse him of assault? When we have a tape of him admitting assault in one of his word-vomit episodes? Why does she get examined under a microscope when there is absolutely nothing about him that warrants giving him the (non-legal, this isn't court) benefit of the doubt?
  #104  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:24 PM
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1. I didn’t quite call this women a liar. I responded to Rickjay who said that there was nothing that was hard to believe about her story. There are in fact some things that make it hard to believe. But I guess that is close enough to me calling her a liar, so ok. The point is that Trump doesn’t have anything to do with it. I seek to be objective and apply an objective standard. I’d like to think I would apply the same standards to Hitler as to Ghandi.

Your question then is really what constitutes a “good “ accusation. By good, I mean one that is actionable, demands my attention and support, i.e take it seriously. By contrast the less “good” it is, the less I take it seriously. So, I’m an attempt to be objective and fair here in order of importance are the components of accusations:

1. The accuser needs to make their accusation seriously. They have to appeal to the authorities in place to deal with this. If you are accusing somebody of a crime you have to report it to the police, and be willing to prosecute. If it’s not a crime you should be reporting it to the highest authority pertinent. If you are not willing to make an official complaint, I don’t think you are taking your accusation seriously, so neither should I. You have to seek justice through the process and you have to cooperate with the process.

2. The more proof and evidence you have of your accusation the more credible it is and the more seriously I take it. Not just quantity of evidence but quality too. A story is just a story. What elevates what you are saying beyond a story. Do you have physical evidence, witnesses what can you show to document your story?

3. Is the accusation contemporaneous? Contemporaneous is better. Memories change. It’s harder to prove something that happened 20 years ago. I know that sucks and it’s not fair, but it is also true.

4. Are there possible ulterior motives? Is there something to be gained by making the accusation or something to be lost?

5. How “pat” is the story? I distrust accusations that fit a narrative everybody “knows”

6. How credible is the accuser personally?

That’s it. I’m a big believer in innocent until proven guilty. I think somebody being falsely punished for a crime is worse than letting s crime go unpunished.

The unfortunate fact is that false accusations are commonplace. I don’t believe stories. I believe facts.
All this is ridiculous. According to our resident posters on this subject, you should always believe the accuser and the accused is guilty until proven innocent. There is no due process in the court of public opinion or on this board.

There is nothing an accuser can say or do that would give an indication of a false allegation because she acts that way because of her "trauma" which is simple question begging because we don't know that she has any trauma.

There is no defense to an allegation.
  #105  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:42 PM
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But what took her 20 frick'n years to come forward?
I'm amazed at how people can attack a woman when she accuses a rapist. And then ask, with a straight face, why she hesitated to make the accusation.
  #106  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:42 PM
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All this is ridiculous. According to our resident posters on this subject, you should always believe the accuser and the accused is guilty until proven innocent. There is no due process in the court of public opinion or on this board.

There is nothing an accuser can say or do that would give an indication of a false allegation because she acts that way because of her "trauma" which is simple question begging because we don't know that she has any trauma.

There is no defense to an allegation.
Okay. No. That is not what anyone is saying. Support the accuser. That does not mean lock up the accused and throw away the key. You can actually support someone independently of the investigation process.

I know. Crazy, right?

In this case, there is not even a likelihood of Trump being convicted of anything because there is no investigation. I am not even talking about the dozens of other accusers - what I am saying is that her inability to remember a date does not mean it did not happen, and that her story has a loud ring of truth for me.

Victimology when it comes to sexual assault is not my opinion, this is fact, and police, DAs and judges are taking training to better understand it.
  #107  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
All this is ridiculous. According to our resident posters on this subject, you should always believe the accuser and the accused is guilty until proven innocent. There is no due process in the court of public opinion or on this board.

There is nothing an accuser can say or do that would give an indication of a false allegation because she acts that way because of her "trauma" which is simple question begging because we don't know that she has any trauma.

There is no defense to an allegation.
Bullshit. People aren't blindly believing this accusation. They're looking at the evidence and deciding the accusation is credible.

The blind believers here are the ones who are denying the evidence.
  #108  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:49 PM
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Bullshit. People aren't blindly believing this accusation. They're looking at the evidence and deciding the accusation is credible.

The blind believers here are the ones who are denying the evidence.
There is no evidence other than her word! What evidence are we denying?
  #109  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:01 PM
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Scylla, I love you. You are one of my absolute favourite posters. I vehemently disagree with some of what you are saying - mostly because I actually know how hard it is to report to the police.

But - this is actually factually wrong. False accusations are NOT commonplace. Actually, the percentage of false accusations for sexual assault are lower than for other crimes - such as car theft.

Here is one cite:

https://www.thecut.com/article/false...cusations.html

It is also one of, if not the only, crime you have to prove you were a victim of - generally you don’t have to prove you were mugged, instead of just loaning the money.
Here's another cite:

Quote:
This investigation is a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area in the Midwestern United States. This city was picked because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. False rape allegations were investigated from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified the investigators whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided records of the case. In the study, 41 percent of the total disposed rape cases were officially declared false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year. The data showed that all the complainants were white, largely of lower socioeconomic background, and a majority was modestly educated. The study of the 45 cases of false rape allegations led to the conclusion that these false charges were able to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, a means of gaining revenge, and a platform for seeking attention/sympathy.

SOURCE: https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=191920
There is no doubt that the vast majority of rape allegations are real but it seems there are always just enough bogus ones to give cover.

Sucks but there it is.
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  #110  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:01 PM
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Scylla, I love you. You are one of my absolute favourite posters. I vehemently disagree with some of what you are saying - mostly because I actually know how hard it is to report to the police.
Thank you. That truly means a lot to me. Especially since we disagree. I get so tired of being told how terrible and awful I am by people who disagree with me. It’s nice that you like me even though you disagree.

I recognize some of what you are saying. Rape is an especially heinous crime because, like murder, it is a crime against your person. We put a lot of baggage on the reproductive act and people attach shame to a victim of rape. The victim may even do so to herself. I understand that it is difficult to come forward, and that doings so can be an awful experience, requiring justification, submitting yourself to judgement. The police can be unsympathetic. I get it. As much as I can as a man.


Quote:
But - this is actually factually wrong. False accusations are NOT commonplace. Actually, the percentage of false accusations for sexual assault are lower than for other crimes - such as car theft.

Here is one cite:

https://www.thecut.com/article/false...cusations.html

It is also one of, if not the only, crime you have to prove you were a victim of - generally you don’t have to prove you were mugged, instead of just loaning the money.
I read that whole article. It cites another study that says that rapes are five times more likely to be falsely reported than other crimes, and says this is wrong, but doesn’t really explain it well. I doubt we will know what the real number is because as the article mentions, rapes are underreported.

I get what you are saying about the difficulty of reporting and proving rape versus consensual sex. I agree. It’s one of the things that makes rape one of the worst crimes there is. Worse still is that it is often committed by people with power authority or who have standing or in a position of trust.

But, I think you would agree with me that false accusations do occur, not just of rape but all kinds of crimes. The standards I put in place for how seriously I take an accusation just don’t apply to rape they apply to any serious accusation of wrongdoing.

I agree that what a victim has to go through sucks, but I feel strongly that the standard of proof needs to be a high one.

In my professional life I have had to deal with several very unpleasant situations. One employee sexually assaulted another and touched her inappropriately in front of witnesses. He was terminated. The sickening thing was that she quit shortly later because she just couldn’t bear that her coworkers had seen this happen to her, though they were universally sympathetic. She couldn’t stand to come in any more. This was not a rape. It was still incredibly traumatic.

We also had a case where a coworker said he was assaulted by another worker. It turned out that this happened near the entry way where there was a security camera. This camera showed the incident and supported the person who was accused’s Side of the story which was that the accuser had been aggressive and he had backed off. The person who was accused was still put on leave during the investigation, and our lawyers pointed out that we needed to be very careful about this video evidence as the camera was supposed to be trained just on the entry way as an anti theft device. What it covered was more than it should and may have been at odds with the expectation off privacy of the employees. Corporate was not happy that I had viewed the security footage for a non security event. The HR person who came did something masterful to navigate this minefield of liability. She asked the accuser “What would you say if I told you that there was a witness present Who says that you started the altercation and the other person backed off, but that you had a good reason for telling the story the way that you did. What was that reason?” I paraphrase. He then immediately explained why he made the false accusation.


I think that as unpleasant and unfair as my standards (and the laws’) are they are the best of a lot of rotten alternatives. False accusations do occur. Not all accusations are equal. We have to evaluate them rigorously and seriously.


The fact that it has been incredibly difficult for women to come forward and receive justice when they have been raped or sexually assaulted is not a good reason to lower the standards of proof or exempt the presumption of innocence.

I think we can and should do much better for victims and we should live in a climate where any victim of a crime should feel absolutely comfortable coming forward immediately without fear of reprisal, provided they are doing so in good faith.
  #111  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
There is no evidence other than her word! What evidence are we denying?
Her word is evidence, as is the character of the accused, and contemporaneous reports to two others.

That may not add up to “beyond a reasonable doubt” in your mind, but it is evidence.
  #112  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Here's another cite:







There is no doubt that the vast majority of rape allegations are real but it seems there are always just enough bogus ones to give cover.



Sucks but there it is.
Considering the time period, I'm unconvinced. The justice system at the time was not exactly welcoming and fair to women who make claims of rape. Which is a big part of why women don't want to come forward - they're likely to be called liars, no matter the truth of their account. I have trouble believing such statistics would be any more reflective of the truth than crime statistics about black people in Alabama in the 1940s.
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  #113  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
There is no evidence other than her word! What evidence are we denying?
There's no evidence she is lying, and yet many posters in this thread are implying or outright saying that she's a liar.

All that is being asked is that rape and sexual assault accusations be taken seriously, and that accusers not be dismissed, attacked, or denigrated, barring proof of dishonesty. Many posters in this thread are failing that.
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  #114  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:56 PM
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There's no evidence she is lying, and yet many posters in this thread are implying or outright saying that she's a liar.
You’ve created a conundrum. By that same logic we should not denigrate, imply, or state that Trump is a rapist unless there is proof that he is. There is no proof or evidence that he is lying when he says he didn’t do it.

You can’t have it both ways. Frankly, I just think people should feel free to evaluate the evidence and state their opinion. I for one believe all of the following:

1. Trump is horrible towards women. His character and actions in this regard are despicable and indefensible.

2. This accusation is made up to sell books. She won’t go to the police or release the coat for forensic analysis because she does not want to get Smolletted.

3. False accusations occur, the rich famous and powerful are magnets for such.

4. Rich famous and powerful people are often take advantage of their positions of power.

5. The standards of proof needed before an accused suffer consequences need to be very high.

6. We need to do a better job making good faith accusers feel comfortable so that they will come forward immediately. Our failure to do so, and the stigma we attach to victims is inexcusable.

7. Beto speaking Spanish last night and Booker copying him was the most embarrassing political spectacle that I have seen this week.

8. Biden will make a horrible gaffe

9. Coconut is the best flavor, by far.

Last edited by Scylla; 06-27-2019 at 08:57 PM.
  #115  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:16 PM
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1. The accuser needs to make their accusation seriously. They have to appeal to the authorities in place to deal with this. If you are accusing somebody of a crime you have to report it to the police, and be willing to prosecute.
I know people who were sexually abused as children by close relatives, but they didn’t report them to any authorities. Fear of retaliation. Fear of being blamed. Fear of not being believed. Didn’t want to destroy their families. Shame. All of these emotions and concerns drove them to stay quiet. Has nothing to do with them not taking their “accusation seriously”.

I can’t imagine shrugging off their experiences because they wrongly or rightly felt the costs benefits of reporting was not in their favor.

Quote:
If it’s not a crime you should be reporting it to the highest authority pertinent. If you are not willing to make an official complaint, I don’t think you are taking your accusation seriously, so neither should I. You have to seek justice through the process and you have to cooperate with the process.
What does it mean for you to take an “accusation seriously”, when all we’re talking about is commentary on a message board? No one is expecting you to run out and get a noose for Trump. All that might be expected of you is to not contribute to the climate of shaming, ridicule, and maliciousness that, ironically, causes victims of sexual abuse to stay silent.

Multiple posters in this thread have recounted instances of sexual assault; I don’t know if they notified the cops, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t. Think hard about what you’ve just expressed to them.
  #116  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:33 PM
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If you believe that Donald Trump forcibly raped a woman in broad daylight in a public place and NO ONE noticed or mentioned it for 25 years, then you seriously need to take a look at yourself. I guess if someone claimed that he was actually a lizard alien from Alpha Centauri, you'd immediately buy that, too. You're no better than the people who bought into the "Pizzagate" idiocy.

For a place that prides itself on intelligence and "fighting ignorance", this board is certainly full of people who will swallow the most outrageous nonsense as long at it fits their political agenda.
nm

Last edited by Ulfreida; 06-27-2019 at 09:34 PM.
  #117  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:37 PM
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Of course he raped her. Of course no one cares. Of course men will think she's lying. Of course of course of course. If I had to choose anyone in the world who's a likely rapist he would be in the top five and I don't have any idea who the others would be.

I can't read all the comments.

Last edited by Ulfreida; 06-27-2019 at 09:38 PM.
  #118  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:42 PM
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Her word is evidence, as is the character of the accused, and contemporaneous reports to two others.

That may not add up to “beyond a reasonable doubt” in your mind, but it is evidence.
There’s also a picture of them together, confirming that she has met him and contradicting his claim that he had not done so.
  #119  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:10 PM
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Considering the time period, I'm unconvinced. The justice system at the time was not exactly welcoming and fair to women who make claims of rape. Which is a big part of why women don't want to come forward - they're likely to be called liars, no matter the truth of their account. I have trouble believing such statistics would be any more reflective of the truth than crime statistics about black people in Alabama in the 1940s.
Well...conviction rates suggest they agree with you and do not buy a false allegation claim.
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  #120  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:31 PM
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You’ve created a conundrum. By that same logic we should not denigrate, imply, or state that Trump is a rapist unless there is proof that he is. There is no proof or evidence that he is lying when he says he didn’t do it.

You can’t have it both ways. Frankly, I just think people should feel free to evaluate the evidence and state their opinion. I for one believe all of the following:

1. Trump is horrible towards women. His character and actions in this regard are despicable and indefensible.

2. This accusation is made up to sell books. She won’t go to the police or release the coat for forensic analysis because she does not want to get Smolletted.

3. False accusations occur, the rich famous and powerful are magnets for such.

4. Rich famous and powerful people are often take advantage of their positions of power.

5. The standards of proof needed before an accused suffer consequences need to be very high.

6. We need to do a better job making good faith accusers feel comfortable so that they will come forward immediately. Our failure to do so, and the stigma we attach to victims is inexcusable.

7. Beto speaking Spanish last night and Booker copying him was the most embarrassing political spectacle that I have seen this week.

8. Biden will make a horrible gaffe

9. Coconut is the best flavor, by far.
The standard of proof for conviction NEEDS to be high. Agreed completely.

False accusations do occur, but unlike every other crime (or so it may seem) rape is one of the only ones that you need to prove you were a victim of - again, even though the rate of false reporting is less or the same, no one immediately accuses any other crime victim of lying. This is a problem.
Also, false reports sometimes get included with “unfounded”. Not the same thing. Up until DNA testing became more widely used most stranger rapes were binned - since the likelihood of catching the offender was low, and marital rape was not even a crime until not that long ago (in Canada I think it was in the 80s).

It is possible to support the victim without vilifying the accused. The survivor can get help, counseling, etc with the understand that clearly SOMETHING happened to them.

Finally, no. Vanilla is the best flavour, with special attention to vanilla bourbon bean.
  #121  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:50 PM
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False accusations do occur, but unlike every other crime (or so it may seem) rape is one of the only ones that you need to prove you were a victim of - again, even though the rate of false reporting is less or the same, no one immediately accuses any other crime victim of lying. This is a problem.

You are either completely and obviously wrong or else I just don’t quite get what you mean. I kind of think you always have to prove that a crime happened when you make an accusation. Do you mean that rape requires special challenges to proof in some circumstances? I agree. A woman who is beaten and raped by a stranger she never met and who bears evidence of the attack is going to have an easy job convincing a policemen she was raped (at least I hope so.) A woman who was raped by her boyfriend with whom she had previously had consensual sex might have a more difficult time. She might not receive the sympathy and consideration she deserves. Is that what you mean?


Quote:
It is possible to support the victim without vilifying the accused. The survivor can get help, counseling, etc with the understand that clearly SOMETHING happened to them.
I agree. Do you agree that this is not exactly what is happening with this person seems to be doing?

Quote:
Finally, no. Vanilla is the best flavour, with special attention to vanilla bourbon bean.
That is a good rebuttal. I would counter with this:


https://www.peninsulagrill.com/main/...e-coconut-cake

To be fair it does have vanilla in it.
  #122  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:12 PM
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You are either completely and obviously wrong or else I just don’t quite get what you mean. I kind of think you always have to prove that a crime happened when you make an accusation. Do you mean that rape requires special challenges to proof in some circumstances? I agree. A woman who is beaten and raped by a stranger she never met and who bears evidence of the attack is going to have an easy job convincing a policemen she was raped (at least I hope so.) A woman who was raped by her boyfriend with whom she had previously had consensual sex might have a more difficult time. She might not receive the sympathy and consideration she deserves. Is that what you mean?




I agree. Do you agree that this is not exactly what is happening with this person seems to be doing?



That is a good rebuttal. I would counter with this:


https://www.peninsulagrill.com/main/...e-coconut-cake

To be fair it does have vanilla in it.
What I mean is, rape is the only crime that I have to fight to prove I did not consent to - if I am beaten, it would be pretty odd for anyone to say “Really, Poysyn, are you sure you did not just join some crazy fight club thing?”

But if I am raped, I have to prove that no, I did not want that person inside of me.

Victims of crime are (generally) given the benefit of the doubt that the crime happened. Except with sexual assault. Which sucks.

At the end of the day, the ideal solution is if people let the investigation do it’s job, but support the person victimized at the same time.
  #123  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:38 PM
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Ugh. Sorry.

Last edited by Poysyn; 06-27-2019 at 11:41 PM.
  #124  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:40 PM
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and now repeating myself. Awesome. Going to bed.

Last edited by Poysyn; 06-27-2019 at 11:41 PM.
  #125  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:21 AM
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There is no evidence other than her word! What evidence are we denying?
At least fifteen other women have accused Trump of sexual assault.

Trump has said, on record, that he sexually assaults women.

When asked about Carroll, Trump claimed he had never met her. Photos show them together. This establishes that Trump is lying about Carroll.

Two other witnesses have corroborated that Carroll made this accusation back in 1996. (No doubt as part of a long-planned liberal plot to discredit Trump in case he changed parties, became a Republican, ran for President, and got elected twenty years later.)

You can, of course, deny that any of this is evidence about Trump's credibility. Go ahead and do so. And when you do, make sure you repeat that part about how some people just blindly follow their chosen leaders.
  #126  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:48 AM
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It's interesting that so many people demand conviction-level proof that a woman was raped in order to believe her, when they don't do this with victims of other crimes. Your colleague, Lenny, tells you someone stole his brand-new flat screen. Do you say, "Lenny, prove to me it was stolen, or I won't believe you"? Of course not.

You might say well, but Lenny is credible. I've known him a long time. OK. So Lenny tells you someone a couple blocks away was robbed of a $100, do you scoff and say, "I'll believe that only when they find the perp and secure a conviction"? No. of course not.

All anyone is asking is that you don't dismiss the claims of a person who was sexually assaulted. Give them the same level of credibility as you do other victims of other crimes. A small percentage of robbery claims are fake, yet people claiming they were robbed don't often face the same level of scorn and doubt a rape victim does.

I was going to say those who make the "prove it or I dismiss it" demand must be terribly lucky that no one in their lives was sexually assaulted, but sadly, anyone who'd been assaulted would be unlikely to tell anyone with such an attitude.
  #127  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:03 AM
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You’ve created a conundrum. By that same logic we should not denigrate, imply, or state that Trump is a rapist unless there is proof that he is. There is no proof or evidence that he is lying when he says he didn’t do it.

You can’t have it both ways. Frankly, I just think people should feel free to evaluate the evidence and state their opinion. I for one believe all of the following:

1. Trump is horrible towards women. His character and actions in this regard are despicable and indefensible.

2. This accusation is made up to sell books. She won’t go to the police or release the coat for forensic analysis because she does not want to get Smolletted.

3. False accusations occur, the rich famous and powerful are magnets for such.

4. Rich famous and powerful people are often take advantage of their positions of power.

5. The standards of proof needed before an accused suffer consequences need to be very high.

6. We need to do a better job making good faith accusers feel comfortable so that they will come forward immediately. Our failure to do so, and the stigma we attach to victims is inexcusable.

7. Beto speaking Spanish last night and Booker copying him was the most embarrassing political spectacle that I have seen this week.

8. Biden will make a horrible gaffe

9. Coconut is the best flavor, by far.
I don't have it both ways. Right now, our society coddles and goes incredibly easy on powerful men accused of rape and sexual assault. Trump has faced zero consequences so far from over a dozen credible accusations. And right now, or society shits all over women who accuse powerful men.

That should change.

No conundrum here. Treat accusations with seriousness; treat accusers with compassion; and I don't really care how you treat powerful men accused of rape, since in all likelihood they're going to face no consequences.
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-28-2019 at 05:06 AM.
  #128  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:54 AM
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Anyone surprised by the complete lack of reaction by officials in the Party of Rape (not sure which sounds better -- "Party of Rape" or "Party of Sexual Assault", but right now I lean towards the former)? I'm not. The Republican party has wholly abandoned any pretense of being on the side of women against rapists, because they're worried it could damage their political leaders.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-28-2019 at 05:55 AM.
  #129  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:56 AM
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I (a straight man) was sexually assaulted by a man as a young adult, a bit over twenty years ago as it happens, and the only times I've even mentioned it have been in semi-anonymous online forums like this one. I haven't even talked about it with my long-term girlfriend. I've never told the whole story to anyone. I couldn't, at this point.

I just tried to forget it. Mostly, I have. I don't remember his name, or even what year it happened. But I remember lots of other details: where we met, what he said to get me to his house, what his house looked like, and so on.

So I don't find it hard to understand why women, and all people, don't report this stuff when it happens. I'm not sure I want to post this, frankly, but fuck it, I will, because maybe it will change some other man's thinking about this stuff.
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Thanks, it was really hard to say that
Thanks for sharing that, snoe.

Have you read the stories from Terry Crews and Brendan Fraser about their experiences? I'm not sure how what they went through compares to your experience, but the shame, anxiety and fear around reporting being molested applies even when the victims are big muscular men. And even after they came forward, in the midst of the #MeToo wave, there were those who openly mocked them for the events that traumatized them. The power of the truth may not stop assholes from being assholes, but it helps others who may feel powerless.
  #130  
Old 06-28-2019, 07:38 AM
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She has claimed Trump raped her. She has two people she told at the time who confirm it.

Trump's only counter evidence is claiming he never met the woman, and saying she's unattractive. The latter is irrelevant, and we have photographic proof the former is false.

We also have character evidence of a guy who admitted women would let him get away with rape because he was rich, who admitted to going backstage to try and catch the women undressed at his pageants, and who has had several other independent reports of sexual assault.

Simply weighing the evidence we have right now, it seems likely he raped her. That is just looking at things rationally. No incriminations attacking Trump supporters or liberals. No claim that she's lying when you have no evidence to back that up. Just looking at what we have, right now.

Can any of Trump's defenders set out a post like this?
  #131  
Old 06-28-2019, 09:37 AM
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Simply weighing the evidence we have right now, it seems likely he raped her. That is just looking at things rationally. No incriminations attacking Trump supporters or liberals. No claim that she's lying when you have no evidence to back that up. Just looking at what we have, right now.

Can any of Trump's defenders set out a post like this?
Yes, I did. I asked that E. Jean Carroll provide the date on which she claimed it happened instead of a six month time frame.

When she does, given Trump's wealth and status, it is highly likely Trump can provide his whereabouts that day. If it turns out he was out of town or has another iron clad alibi, will you agree that some rape allegations are false?
  #132  
Old 06-28-2019, 09:40 AM
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Yes, I did. I asked that E. Jean Carroll provide the date on which she claimed it happened instead of a six month time frame.

When she does, given Trump's wealth and status, it is highly likely Trump can provide his whereabouts that day. If it turns out he was out of town or has another iron clad alibi, will you agree that some rape allegations are false?
What was the exact date you lost your virginity? Month, day, year. Surely you must remember the exact date of something so memorable. If you can't produce this exact date, then we can only assume that you are currently a virgin. Correct?
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  #133  
Old 06-28-2019, 09:56 AM
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What was the exact date you lost your virginity? Month, day, year. Surely you must remember the exact date of something so memorable. If you can't produce this exact date, then we can only assume that you are currently a virgin. Correct?
There's no shame in being a virgin. I admire men and women who can demonstrate self control and wait to engage in intimate acts under the bonds of marriage. They can say they share something special. So if I had waited until my honeymoon, yes I could provide that exact date.
  #134  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:09 AM
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There's no shame in being a virgin. I admire men and women who can demonstrate self control and wait to engage in intimate acts under the bonds of marriage. They can say they share something special. So if I had waited until my honeymoon, yes I could provide that exact date.
I didn't say it was shameful. That's your word.

I was getting at your insistence that people should remember exact dates this way. That isn't the way memory works. The fact that you cannot remember the date you first had sex should illustrate to you that your argument doesn't hold water.
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  #135  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:17 AM
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I'm amazed at how people can attack a woman when she accuses a rapist. And then ask, with a straight face, why she hesitated to make the accusation.
And I love how people on message boards just make stuff up.

I didn't attack her (nice hyperbole though).

I pointed out that her delaying in reporting of this, didn't help her case. It doesn't help in a rape case, or in a larceny case. Waiting over twenty years to come public with this, and then doing it when it would benefit you financially also lessens your credibility. This isn't an attack. This is pointing out some legitimate issues.

If you view this as an attack, than I think growing a thicker skin is in order.
  #136  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:21 AM
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There’s also a picture of them together, confirming that she has met him and contradicting his claim that he had not done so.
What's even scarier is that this could be such normal behavior for Trump that he might really not remember her.
  #137  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:22 AM
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And I love how people on message boards just make stuff up.

I didn't attack her (nice hyperbole though).

I pointed out that her delaying in reporting of this, didn't help her case. It doesn't help in a rape case, or in a larceny case. Waiting over twenty years to come public with this, and then doing it when it would benefit you financially also lessens your credibility. This isn't an attack. This is pointing out some legitimate issues.

If you view this as an attack, than I think growing a thicker skin is in order.
You said "And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men?"

Did you forget you said that, or is that not attacking her?
  #138  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:27 AM
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If we believe Carroll's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.

If we believe Trump's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.

When someone brags about constantly committing sexual assault, and someone else accuses them of committing sexual assault, it's logical to conclude they did it. Don't like this? Then don't brag about constantly committing sexual assault.

And yes, it would be better if victims would come forward right away. Want to make that happen? Stop blaming victims. All you folks who ask "Why did she wait so long?"? The answer is you. You are the reason why she waited so long.
  #139  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:59 AM
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If we believe Carroll's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.

If we believe Trump's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.

When someone brags about constantly committing sexual assault, and someone else accuses them of committing sexual assault, it's logical to conclude they did it. Don't like this? Then don't brag about constantly committing sexual assault.

And yes, it would be better if victims would come forward right away. Want to make that happen? Stop blaming victims. All you folks who ask "Why did she wait so long?"? The answer is you. You are the reason why she waited so long.
Yep. We have a recording of Trump admitting he sexually assaults women. Why is this, the 20th or so accusation, still so hard to believe when the man himself admitted he does it?
  #140  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:26 AM
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There's no shame in being a virgin. I admire men and women who can demonstrate self control and wait to engage in intimate acts under the bonds of marriage. They can say they share something special. So if I had waited until my honeymoon, yes I could provide that exact date.
I predict that we will never get the exact date from LAZombie. (And I note that he asserts confidently that he could remember the date if it happened on his honeymoon, which is a tacit admission that people remember dates when they are pre-planned and calendared, as opposed to happening on an otherwise random day).

But the point has been made. People generally don't remember the dates of very memorable moments in their lives (me? I lost my virginity on a spring break trip with my girlfriend in a motel room. I received oral sex for the first time about a week earlier. I know my senior year was 1996, and spring break was in the spring, but that's about the best I can do. And getting a BJ and then getting laid my senior year were absolutely the highlights of that time).

Hell, my dog died earlier this year. It is still incredibly traumatic; I carry a lot of guilt, since she died in the middle of the night in the hallway. I can still vividly remember putting my face on her body to listen for a heartbeat, and the coolness of her body still sickens me. I also keep a calendar at work that details my travels (for expense account reasons) - I write down things like anniversaries and birthdays on it - but I didn't record this event, despite it being something I will carry with me forever; it was too sad to write down. Now, I'm pretty sure it was the end of March - about a month before I visited my mom (which date I remember because I showed up a few days after her birthday) - but I don't know the date. I don't want to know the date. But, sure as shit, Ruby did die.
  #141  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:27 AM
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If we believe Carroll's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.

If we believe Trump's account, the conclusion is that Trump probably raped her.
Are you doing a Captain Obvious commercial? I like those😀


Quote:
When someone brags about constantly committing sexual assault, and someone else accuses them of committing sexual assault, it's logical to conclude they did it. Don't like this? Then don't brag about constantly committing sexual assault.
That’s not actually logical. Following the same form, if I brag about how I fly to the moon on magical wings every night, and somebody else accuses me of stealing the American flag off the moon, than it is not logical to conclude that I did it.

People say all kinds of shit about what they did or didn’t. Nothing anybody says actually changes what happened in the past.

So no, you are not being logical.

Quote:
And yes, it would be better if victims would come forward right away. Want to make that happen? Stop blaming victims. All you folks who ask "Why did she wait so long?"? The answer is you. You are the reason why she waited so long.

How exactly does that work?
  #142  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:33 AM
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AThat’s not actually logical. Following the same form, if I brag about how I fly to the moon on magical wings every night, and somebody else accuses me of stealing the American flag off the moon, than it is not logical to conclude that I did it.

People say all kinds of shit about what they did or didn’t. Nothing anybody says actually changes what happened in the past.
There's a problem with this analogy, which is that flying to the moon on magical wings is fanciful stuff that is not realistically done. So, you are right that logic wouldn't follow from an accusation of stealing the flag.

But, crimes are solved all the time because a person brags about them. If I'm bragging about robbing banks, and then you hear about a bank in my neighborhood that got robbed, yes it is logical to consider me a prime suspect. No, you don't just get to 'conclude I did it', but the logic does flow.

Last edited by Moriarty; 06-28-2019 at 11:34 AM.
  #143  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:51 AM
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How exactly does that work?
Very straightforwardly. I've talked to, I dunno, 3-500 people who by definition had reported that they were assaulted to someone, but most of them never contacted law enforcement about it. The vast majority never contacted law enforcement about it, and preferred to take whatever steps were necessary to keep law enforcement out of it. The calculus was simple: they perceived that nothing good would come of it, and bad things would come of it. As far as I could tell, they had good reasons to believe that.

A substantial part of the reason that a substantial percentage of those people didn't report was that they were afraid of how they would be treated, of the fact that they would not be believed, and of the fact that they would be dragged through another traumatic process which involved reliving the events, being questioned and impugned, and which ultimately led to nothing helpful occurring.

The reason that they feel that way is because they are not stupid. And they have seen it happen to others. They maybe have been through some of it themselves, either because of past experiences or because of the people they've already talked to about their present experience. Literally 100% of the people I have talked to -- who again are the people who do report it to somebody -- have experienced some significant barrier which was presented by either an authority figure or someone close to them treating them like they had done something wrong.

You're acting like it's some kind of abstract notion that we're tossing around, but it's an extremely concrete and simple thing. People get treated like shit when they report what happened to them. So they don't do it. And treating people like shit for reporting what happened is the thing that they're avoiding.

I think that there is very little chance that you could understand what those people go through when they try to do the "right" thing and tell someone that another person did a terrible thing to them. I certainly don't understand it, but I know enough to know that I don't.

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 06-28-2019 at 11:53 AM.
  #144  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:56 AM
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There's a problem with this analogy, which is that flying to the moon on magical wings is fanciful stuff that is not realistically done. So, you are right that logic wouldn't follow from an accusation of stealing the flag.
Fair enough, but the fanciful aspects of the analogy were not pertinent.

Quote:
But, crimes are solved all the time because a person brags about them. If I'm bragging about robbing banks, and then you hear about a bank in my neighborhood that got robbed, yes it is logical to consider me a prime suspect. No, you don't just get to 'conclude I did it', but the logic does flow.
No. It still doesn’t. What you are saying is true but it is not a rebuttal to what I am saying. The Flaw in Chronos’ logic was suggesting that saying something happened effects whether or not it happened.


In this particular case she has not filed a police report, still refuses to do so, she won’t release physical evidence for forensic analysis. She is actively working against attempts to take her story seriously and hold the accused accountable. When somebody is actively seeking to thwart attempts to verify their story, I consider that bit of a red flag.
  #145  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:06 PM
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The fanciful aspects of the analogy are absolutely pertinent, and why you included them. We would not believe that someone stole the flag from the Moon because it's impossible. Trump raping someone, however, is quite possible, and we do believe it.
  #146  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:07 PM
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Fair enough, but the fanciful aspects of the analogy were not pertinent.



No. It still doesn’t. What you are saying is true but it is not a rebuttal to what I am saying. The Flaw in Chronos’ logic was suggesting that saying something happened effects whether or not it happened.


In this particular case she has not filed a police report, still refuses to do so, she won’t release physical evidence for forensic analysis. She is actively working against attempts to take her story seriously and hold the accused accountable. When somebody is actively seeking to thwart attempts to verify their story, I consider that bit of a red flag.
I get that I'm a new guy around here, and even if I wasn't you would of course be under no obligation to respond simply because I asked.

But given that your argument depends on "red flags" I would be curious to hear your explanation as to why your initial recounting of the "red flags" was IMO misleading at best, as I detailed here.

Also where are you getting the information that she has rejected a forensic analysis of the coat? I did a google search and didn't see anything to that effect. I strongly suspect there's nothing to be gained from such analysis, given the passage of time and the lack of "blue dress" type evidence, but I can't find any record of someone asking her to do this and her refusing.

Last edited by Les Wizerables; 06-28-2019 at 12:08 PM.
  #147  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:07 PM
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Jimmy:

Chronos said that someone asking “why did she wait so long,”. Makes that someone the reason she waited so long.

I asked how that follows, because unless one posits time travel, it doesn’t.

You are responding with a lot of valid stuff about victim blaming, and why victims wait. I agree with that.
  #148  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:20 PM
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Maybe, if your interpretation of what he said requires time travel, that's one of those "red flags" I've been hearing so much about. Maybe there's a simpler interpretation, which is that he was talking about what I was talking about: statements like yours are the reason people like this person, who have been assaulted, don't report.
  #149  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:21 PM
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But given that your argument depends on "red flags" I would be curious to hear your explanation as to why your initial recounting of the "red flags" was IMO misleading at best, as I detailed here.

I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didn’t and don’t feel obligated to respond. I also generally don’t find arguments along the line of “why did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some other” as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time.
  #150  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:22 PM
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Maybe, if your interpretation of what he said requires time travel, that's one of those "red flags" I've been hearing so much about. Maybe there's a simpler interpretation, which is that he was talking about what I was talking about: statements like yours are the reason people like this person, who have been assaulted, don't report.
Yes. That’s total bullshit.
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