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  #151  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood View Post
People get treated like shit when they report what happened to them. So they don't do it. And treating people like shit for reporting what happened is the thing that they're avoiding.
You are discussing 'typical' victims. Now, add to the equation the fact that the perpetrator is very wealthy and has access to lots of publicity and lots of lawyers. The 'treating like shit' just got ramped up exponentially.

Additionally, of course, there is likely guilt and shame of having 'put yourself in that position.' Many rapes started with flirtation. There might be cases where the woman was very attracted to the man, even willing to become a 'side fling' for the thrill of it all. She might have been dressed to 'impress', might have even been looking 'for attention'. (Strange, isn't it, that rich people don't feel so similarly shamed if they get robbed?)

The key, of course, is that a woman doesn't give up her ability to make decisions for herself at any point in this dalliance. A woman can be flirty with a man she has desires for and still not be willing to consent to sexual activity on his terms; her 'no' is just as valid. She is entitled to want 'attention' while still maintaining the right to decline unwanted attention. No amount of overt 'sexiness' amounts to consent without actually consenting.

But those doubts are real. When coupled with the other aspects of victim shaming already discussed, these questions about the woman's role most certainly contribute to the reluctance.

And, in that vain, I completely understand how E. Jean Caroll chose to tell her story. She knows that people are going to question her behavior, scrutinize her actions, and wonder whether she is being truthful or opportunistic. So, she told the story on her terms - she wrote a book, which meant that nobody could edit her words in a way she didn't want. From what I gather from excerpts and interviews, she owns the ambiguities in her story (e.g. yes, she was an ambitious woman in New York who sought to run in the biggest and most glamorous circles). She doesn't shy away from the fact that, yes, she was flirting with a married man. And, yes, she was discussing a sexualized topic (lingerie) with him. And she even walked into an isolated room with him.

I, personally, think it all adds to her credibility. She could have erased any possibility culpability she had to put herself in that situation. And, in fact, she could be loudly clamoring for 'justice' regarding a crime that is decades old, in pursuit of martyrdom. I think the fact that she is instead coming out and basically saying "Here's my truth, ugly thought it may be. Deal with it." without asking for a monetary reward or criminal prosecution makes it believable.

Last edited by Moriarty; 06-28-2019 at 12:25 PM.
  #152  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
You mention that it's hard to tell authorities about it. But you know what? In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. "Hard is fucking authorized."
Yes, let's talk about your line of business: "Unreported sexual assaults surge at military academies, Pentagon finds."

Combat pilot turned senator: "Like many victims, I felt the system was raping me all over again."

Last edited by Ravenman; 06-28-2019 at 12:27 PM.
  #153  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:36 PM
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I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didnít and donít feel obligated to respond. I also generally donít find arguments along the line of ďwhy did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some otherĒ as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time.
This is in response to Les Wizerable (welcome!), who pointed out some material inconsistencies between the facts of the story and your description, which absolutely go to the credibility and believability of the story. I'd love for you to reconcile them, because, as Les has pointed out, this is not an accurate description of what happened (my bolds):

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Originally Posted by Scylla
A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but itís Trump, so ok.)

You respond positively to this and pick out a transparent piece of lingerie and go with him into the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman. He then aggressively tries to have sex with you. You push him away laughing (this is her story, mind you). Then he engages in intercourse. You never say ďnoĒ ďstopĒ or scream for help, though it is a small dressing room in a crowded store in a public place. Itís not really clear from your own story that you ever withdrew consent You donít describe the aftermath. You donít go to the police. You donít tell anyone except two close friends. You donít mention in your columns or public forums though you have a platform and a voice that would let you do so. You donít come out and mention during the 2016 elections when many other credible allegations against Trump and his bad behavior come out.
  #154  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:57 PM
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I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didn’t and don’t feel obligated to respond. I also generally don’t find arguments along the line of “why did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some other” as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time.
Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO. I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll's story is central to the topic. You claimed that Carroll said/did very little to resist Trump's advances either at the flirtation stage or during the alleged assault. But that simply isn't true. Would you agree that, by her account, she resisted his "model this lingerie" advances for a while before acquiescing, and offered quite a bit of physical resistance to the actual assault?

Also I'm still curious about the basis for the claim that Carroll has refused forensic testing of her dresscoat.

Last edited by Les Wizerables; 06-28-2019 at 12:58 PM.
  #155  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:00 PM
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Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO.
But you did.

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I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll's story is central to the topic.
Thatís the change of topic I was talking about. You are calling me a liar. My suggestion is this: If you think somebody is lying or providing false information. donít waste your time debating them.

If you do want them talk to them donít lead off with calling them a liar.

When someone goes that route with me, I make it a point of not giving them what they want by responding to the arguments.

I say this not because I am offended. I am truly not. I donít care. Itís just not a conducive start to a productive or interesting discussion.
  #156  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:02 PM
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You seem to be having a negative experience with having your motives called into question.
  #157  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
Yes. Thatís total bullshit.
It's absolutely not bullshit. We can hear it from the women themselves -- they generally don't come forward because they get dragged through the mud, insulted, attacked, etc., rather than welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness. Your response was much closer to "attacked" and "insulted" than "welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness".

And this is what I hear personally, too. Most of the women I know were, at some point, raped or sexually assaulted. Very, very few of them reported it to the police. Like less than 10%.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-28-2019 at 02:04 PM.
  #158  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Wizerables View Post
Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO. I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll's story is central to the topic.
Yup, itís very central. It goes to the idea that accusers donít just have to contend with victim-blaming and biased skepticism, but they also risk having people misconstrue their accounts to further justify victim-blaming and skepticism.
  #159  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. "Hard is fucking authorized."
I missed this, sorry.

The military culture makes it about a million times harder to come forward. Both Canadian and American militaries are working very hard to figure this out, and, at least in Canada, we are realizing that we NEED to move to a victim-centric approach. 90% of women that are sexually assaulted leave uniform within a year of being assaulted. We canít afford to lose enthusiastic personnel that want to serve due to sexual assault.

Please do not use it as an example of how to do things when it comes to sexual assault.
  #160  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:17 PM
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It's absolutely not bullshit. We can hear it from the women themselves -- they generally don't come forward because they get dragged through the mud, insulted, attacked, etc., rather than welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness. Your response was much closer to "attacked" and "insulted" than "welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness".

And this is what I hear personally, too. Most of the women I know were, at some point, raped or sexually assaulted. Very, very few of them reported it to the police. Like less than 10%.

Itís total bullshit.

Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they donít, why they didnít is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions. Asking ďwhyĒ they donít when they donít is not what causes them not to. Treating them like shit when they do is what causes it. These are two different things.
  #161  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:18 PM
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That is an American stat, by the way. We donít have that number yet for Canada.
  #162  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
Itís total bullshit.

Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they donít, why they didnít is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions. Asking ďwhyĒ they donít when they donít is not what causes them not to. Treating them like shit when they do is what causes it. These are two different things.
Yes, and I'm saying that you are crossing into the "treating them like shit" category. Maybe just a little bit, and others in this thread have been worse, but you're still adding a little bit onto that big pile of crap.
  #163  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:22 PM
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Thanks for sharing that, snoe.

Have you read the stories from Terry Crews and Brendan Fraser about their experiences? I'm not sure how what they went through compares to your experience, but the shame, anxiety and fear around reporting being molested applies even when the victims are big muscular men. And even after they came forward, in the midst of the #MeToo wave, there were those who openly mocked them for the events that traumatized them. The power of the truth may not stop assholes from being assholes, but it helps others who may feel powerless.
I will check the Crews and Fraser stories out, thanks! I really appreciate it, and other supportive comments from others.

There are women posting in this thread whoíve experienced far worse and whose experiences are more relevant to the OP than mine. I just wanted to point out that talking about this is really hard, and we shouldnít be surprised when people donít want to talk about it. When it happens to you over and over, as it has to many women, I can only imagine how you just start to push it down.

Go back to debating the plausibility of Carrollís story, guys. To me, it sounds pretty plausible.
  #164  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:43 PM
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Yes, and I'm saying that you are crossing into the "treating them like shit" category. Maybe just a little bit, and others in this thread have been worse, but you're still adding a little bit onto that big pile of crap.
I disagree very strongly. The fact is that there are false accusations of rape. I would venture a WAG and say that a disproportionate # of those false allegations are directed at the rich wealthy and famous since there is little potential value in falsely accusing some random schlub.

The result of this is that the Brawleyís and the Duke Lacrosse accuser, the Swetnicks of the world are disproportionately etched along the consciousness of the public as the faces of women claiming sexual assault.

These few high profile false accusations do great damage to the truthful majority. They are seen through that lens.

If we look back critically at these high profile accusations that turned out to be false, it seems to me that there are some commonalities. One of the biggest ones is that instead of going to the police, the accuser goes to the press or the media.

I think we are not suspicious of an accusation made against a high profile person, who chooses to prosecute their accusation in the media instead of the legal system, we are being naive. Doubly so, when a motive such as accusation timed to release of book and made during publicity tour, is apparent.

False accusers are an enemy of legitimate rape victims.


If this women is given uncritical support and it turns out that this was a fabrication it will be very damaging to the next person who comes forward.

Being critical and skeptical is the correct move here.
  #165  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:46 PM
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Coincidentally, this interview with Carroll showed up in my podcast feed. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...4-4be9f9d6885e
(Itís the Trumpcast from Slate for non-Apple people.)
Sixteen minutes in, itís a great interview. Carrollís a character, and still sharp as a rack. Loving it.
  #166  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:53 PM
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Being critical and skeptical is the correct move here.
And yet, when somebody pointed out that your description of events was off, you responded by claiming that it was a personal attack, not worthy of a response, and a change of topic. Why are you refusing to apply a critical eye to the events?
  #167  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:55 PM
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If this women is given uncritical support and it turns out that this was a fabrication it will be very damaging to the next person who comes forward.

Being critical and skeptical is the correct move here.
Oh, sheís getting plenty of skepticism and criticism. Donít worry about that.

And thereís a lot less attention paid to her allegations in mainstream media than they warrant, as well, so I think future accusers of our President will be undamaged by any attempt to say ďbut what about E Jean Carroll?Ē

Most people will say ďwho?Ē
  #168  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:55 PM
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Being critical and skeptical is the correct move here.
I’d say being agnostic would be the best move, if you weren’t convinced Trump did it. Which means you wouldn’t characterize her account with negative adjectives or imply she didn’t act the way you’d expect a legitimate rape victim to act. You would simply reserve judgement and say you didn’t know what the truth was.

Last edited by you with the face; 06-28-2019 at 02:57 PM.
  #169  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:56 PM
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I disagree very strongly. The fact is that there are false accusations of rape. I would venture a WAG and say that a disproportionate # of those false allegations are directed at the rich wealthy and famous since there is little potential value in falsely accusing some random schlub.
Wild guesses like this have no value in this kind of discussion.

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The result of this is that the Brawleyís and the Duke Lacrosse accuser, the Swetnicks of the world are disproportionately etched along the consciousness of the public as the faces of women claiming sexual assault.
Swetnick made an uncorroborated accusation -- that's very different than the (relatively few) others who made provably false accusations. And yet you lump her in together, even with no knowledge of whether or not she told the truth.

How is that going to make other survivors feel when they consider when to come forward?

Quote:
These few high profile false accusations do great damage to the truthful majority. They are seen through that lens.

If we look back critically at these high profile accusations that turned out to be false, it seems to me that there are some commonalities. One of the biggest ones is that instead of going to the police, the accuser goes to the press or the media.
This is more guessing. But even setting that aside, going to the police can be extremely dangerous for women. Why would it be surprising that some might choose the media? The media has actually made some progress on that, even as they have tons of progress more needed. No longer are accusers treated like shit by every prominent outlet... now they are just treated like shit by some.

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I think we are not suspicious of an accusation made against a high profile person, who chooses to prosecute their accusation in the media instead of the legal system, we are being naive. Doubly so, when a motive such as accusation timed to release of book and made during publicity tour, is apparent.
Feel free to feel skepticism... just don't imply dishonesty, greed, and worse.

Further, in this particular case, why would you be skeptical? Trump bragged about sexual assault and violating women's consent, on multiple occasions. He's regularly denigrated women with misogynistic language. There have been over a dozen credible accusations against him. Carroll already has a long career, reputation, etc. She's not hurting for money. She's a successful writer, and her book would probably do well with or without anything about Trump. Are you seriously saying that a successful and wealthy person probably lied about rape just to be slightly more wealthy and successful, with no actual evidence of dishonesty? That's nuts. And worse than nuts, it's harmful to victims and survivors who might be thinking about speaking out.

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False accusers are an enemy of legitimate rape victims.

If this women is given uncritical support and it turns out that this was a fabrication it will be very damaging to the next person who comes forward.
False accusations always do damage, and are well worth criticizing. False accusers are doing terrible things. But implying an accusation is false without any actual evidence that it's false is just as harmful, if not more so. And this is far, far more common than actual false accusations. Every accusation of a prominent man is greeted with assertions that it's false, and that she's a liar. Relatively few of them turn out to be false, but all of those assertions of dishonesty make future women less likely to speak out.

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Being critical and skeptical is the correct move here.
Be skeptical all you want. But critical? There's nothing to criticize. There's no evidence Carroll has done anything dishonest or otherwise wrong. She's simply told her story. It's always okay for women to do that, no matter what. There's never anything wrong with telling one's story, or writing about it, or discussing it in any other way. As long as it's honest, and we have no reason to believe it is not.
  #170  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:03 PM
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Itís total bullshit.

Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they donít, why they didnít is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions. Asking ďwhyĒ they donít when they donít is not what causes them not to. Treating them like shit when they do is what causes it. These are two different things.
I think either purposely or dumbly (your choice) misconstruing a victim's account is a pretty big part of "treating them like shit." So congratulations.
  #171  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:25 PM
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She's simply told her story. It's always okay for women to do that, no matter what. There's never anything wrong with telling one's story, or writing about it, or discussing it in any other way. As long as it's honest, and we have no reason to believe it is not.
You are being absolutist. It is not ď always ok.Ē Telling her story does not happen in a vacuum. It has consequences for her and her accuser. That is the unfortunate reality and to pretend otherwise is dangerously naive.

And who decides whether she is being ďhonest,Ē or not? I think she is being dishonest. I think there is reason to disbelieve her. Apparently, you donít.

I am following your rule about how we treat accusers, by evaluating whether I feel she is being honest and whether there is good reason to doubt her story. You are too. We have come to opposite conclusions, though.

The problem is that your rule sucks because it is relative, subjective and ambiguous.

Perhaps if we discussed this and argued about it for a few thousand years, we might come up with some sort of protocol or system for dealing with these sort of things. We might call it a legal system or something and create courts and police in an attempt to serve justice.

We have these things. You might have noticed. If you seek justice, you avail yourself of them. They are imperfect, but they are the best we have.
  #172  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:43 PM
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And yet, when somebody pointed out that your description of events was off, you responded by claiming that it was a personal attack, not worthy of a response, and a change of topic. Why are you refusing to apply a critical eye to the events?
No. They actually claimed that I lied. He didnít use that word but thatís what it was. In my experience thatís A discussion killer.

I can ignore it, or I can have a meta-discussion where we dissect what I said, itís context, my sources and I defend what I said against the accusation of lying. It becomes about me. Iíve been down that road so many times and watched it happen to others so many times. It gets ugly and personal, nothing interesting is discussed.

There are tons of ways to have discussions without going that route. Almost everybody else here does it, and is generally pretty careful about making their arguments in such a way that they are not attacking the person or the integrity of their fellow debators.

I would like to avoid pissing contests, so when it happens to be directed at me, I ignore it. If the person comes back I try to explain politely that I refuse to engage the subject matter.

Itís not starving a troll, but itís a similar concept. You donít reward arguments directed at you that way by responding to their substance. Or at least I try not to.
  #173  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:56 PM
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But you did.



That’s the change of topic I was talking about. You are calling me a liar. My suggestion is this: If you think somebody is lying or providing false information. don’t waste your time debating them.

If you do want them talk to them don’t lead off with calling them a liar.

When someone goes that route with me, I make it a point of not giving them what they want by responding to the arguments.

I say this not because I am offended. I am truly not. I don’t care. It’s just not a conducive start to a productive or interesting discussion.
OK, but you said:

"Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they don’t, why they didn’t is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions."

I assume that means you think the discussion of why women don't come forward is on-topic. As is how they are treated when they do come forward.

Given that, how is it off-topic to evaluate how you are treating this woman who has come forward? If people may be mischaracterizing or outright lying about a woman's account of a sexual assault in an effort to discredit her, doesn't a discussion about whether they are actually doing so go to the heart of the point you made in the above quote?

Last edited by Les Wizerables; 06-28-2019 at 03:56 PM.
  #174  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:57 PM
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Wow, you do have an issue with the military. Does it color every issue for you?
  #175  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:01 PM
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No. They actually claimed that I lied. He didnít use that word but thatís what it was. In my experience thatís A discussion killer.

I can ignore it, or I can have a meta-discussion where we dissect what I said, itís context, my sources and I defend what I said against the accusation of lying. It becomes about me. Iíve been down that road so many times and watched it happen to others so many times. It gets ugly and personal, nothing interesting is discussed.

There are tons of ways to have discussions without going that route. Almost everybody else here does it, and is generally pretty careful about making their arguments in such a way that they are not attacking the person or the integrity of their fellow debators.

I would like to avoid pissing contests, so when it happens to be directed at me, I ignore it. If the person comes back I try to explain politely that I refuse to engage the subject matter.

Itís not starving a troll, but itís a similar concept. You donít reward arguments directed at you that way by responding to their substance. Or at least I try not to.
I'm new here, and obviously I don't know you at all. I have no reason to assume you were being intentionally misleading or presenting your case in bad faith, and I like to think I assume the best of strangers.

I asked those questions because I want to discuss details of what happened and the public's reaction, and you presented information that either didn't jive with what I'd read, or that I hadn't seen reported (eg the refusal to get the coat tested) and I wanted to learn more.

You don't know me either, of course, so you have no reason to trust me. I get that. The best I can do is promise that if you presented reporting or other information to back up your accounting of the event and what has transpired since, I would be grateful and would read it with an open mind.
  #176  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
You are being absolutist. It is not “ always ok.” Telling her story does not happen in a vacuum. It has consequences for her and her accuser. That is the unfortunate reality and to pretend otherwise is dangerously naive.



And who decides whether she is being “honest,” or not? I think she is being dishonest. I think there is reason to disbelieve her. Apparently, you don’t.



I am following your rule about how we treat accusers, by evaluating whether I feel she is being honest and whether there is good reason to doubt her story. You are too. We have come to opposite conclusions, though.



The problem is that your rule sucks because it is relative, subjective and ambiguous.



Perhaps if we discussed this and argued about it for a few thousand years, we might come up with some sort of protocol or system for dealing with these sort of things. We might call it a legal system or something and create courts and police in an attempt to serve justice.



We have these things. You might have noticed. If you seek justice, you avail yourself of them. They are imperfect, but they are the best we have.
Our justice system has failed women again and again. This is why they so often seek other paths for justice, or even just to get something off their chest. By accusing a women of lying, when there's not a shred of evidence she is doing so, you are making this even harder for women in the future.

But I'll go back to your first paragraph - under what circumstances is it wrong for a woman to honestly speak out about a time she was assaulted or raped? If Carroll is indeed being honest, do you think she's done wrong by speaking out? If so, then it would seem her honesty is irrelevant to you - she should have just stayed shut up no matter what.
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  #177  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:09 PM
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No. They actually claimed that I lied. He didn’t use that word but that’s what it was. In my experience that’s A discussion killer.

I can ignore it, or I can have a meta-discussion where we dissect what I said, it’s context, my sources and I defend what I said against the accusation of lying. It becomes about me. I’ve been down that road so many times and watched it happen to others so many times. It gets ugly and personal, nothing interesting is discussed.

There are tons of ways to have discussions without going that route...
So, let's not go down that route. Instead, let's return to the original story and the facts involved, without pointing any fingers.

I'm going to assert that this is an incorrect description of what happened.
Quote:
A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but it’s Trump, so ok.)

You respond positively to this and pick out a transparent piece of lingerie and go with him into the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman. He then aggressively tries to have sex with you. You push him away laughing (this is her story, mind you). Then he engages in intercourse. You never say “no” “stop” or scream for help, though it is a small dressing room in a crowded store in a public place. It’s not really clear from your own story that you ever withdrew consent You don’t describe the aftermath. You don’t go to the police. You don’t tell anyone except two close friends. You don’t mention in your columns or public forums though you have a platform and a voice that would let you do so. You don’t come out and mention during the 2016 elections when many other credible allegations against Trump and his bad behavior come out.
If the facts are changed, the conclusions may also.

Do you agree that some of these facts are not accurate (specifically, that she 'responded positively', that she picked out the lingerie, that she was merely laughing and never says no or stop, that it occurred in a crowded store or in a public place, that she didn't describe the aftermath or that she didn't tell anybody)?

If we change them, does it change the conclusions?

Last edited by Moriarty; 06-28-2019 at 04:10 PM.
  #178  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:20 PM
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E. Jean Carroll wrote a sex advice column. There's a good chance the topic of date rape came up. I wonder what she wrote and does not following her own advice affect how she stands in this situation? Can we hold her to a higher standard if she claimed to be an authority on how one should conduct themselves in sexual matters?

Last edited by LAZombie; 06-28-2019 at 04:21 PM.
  #179  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:27 PM
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OK, but you said:

"Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they donít, why they didnít is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions."

I assume that means you think the discussion of why women don't come forward is on-topic. As is how they are treated when they do come forward.

Given that, how is it off-topic to evaluate how you are treating this woman who has come forward? If people may be mischaracterizing or outright lying about a woman's account of a sexual assault in an effort to discredit her, doesn't a discussion about whether they are actually doing so go to the heart of the point you made in the above quote?
If you feel itís a fun and rewarding topic, be my guest. I just prefer not to participate.
  #180  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:29 PM
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E. Jean Carroll wrote a sex advice column
Hey, look! More erroneous facts.
  #181  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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I missed this, sorry.

The military culture makes it about a million times harder to come forward. Both Canadian and American militaries are working very hard to figure this out, and, at least in Canada, we are realizing that we NEED to move to a victim-centric approach. 90% of women that are sexually assaulted leave uniform within a year of being assaulted. We canít afford to lose enthusiastic personnel that want to serve due to sexual assault.

Please do not use it as an example of how to do things when it comes to sexual assault.
No, I think you're 100% wrong on this. And frankly my statement is what the "me too" movement is all about in my opinion.

When I was in junior high school a cousin of mine had a similar experience and the advice that she received was that "only you can make you a victim. Are you going to do something about it? Is this going to define you this way?" She took action, went to the authorities, went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

This forced me to confront an issue that I had a number of years prior, and I initially didn't handle it the way my female cousin did. I hid and didn't confront it. I'm not going to go into details, and I don't want any sympathy or discussion about it, but I'll just say it involved a 12 year old boy as a piano student (me) and a priest piano instructor. So I had to ask myself some questions, and assess what my life was going to be. Then I had to confront some issues that no 15 year old male in the 1970s wanted to discuss with his mother, or father, his school friends or the church I'll tell 'ya. And I went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn't cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn't really happen. The world is tough, and if you want to get through it, well, sometimes hard is f'ing authorized. And if and when that philosophy permeates our culture and pushes the victim mentality out of it, our country will be a better place, and bullies will realize that they have no place to hide. I thought that was what the whole me too movement was all about. People who are abused aren't going to be victims any more. We're going to grab the bull by the horns and take some action.
  #182  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:54 PM
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Our justice system has failed women again and again. This is why they so often seek other paths for justice, or even just to get something off their chest. By accusing a women of lying, when there's not a shred of evidence she is doing so, you are making this even harder for women in the future.
ď Other paths for justiceĒ. Sounds like a dog whistle for mob rule, vigilantism, or trial by media. Iím not a fan.

People are free to do what they like and discuss what they like with whom they like. Personally, if I am being asked, I would say that the justice system is the best place to accuse someone of a crime.

If they choose to discuss it publically and make it a media thing than I think it is ok for me to share my opinion.


Quote:
But I'll go back to your first paragraph - under what circumstances is it wrong for a woman to honestly speak out about a time she was assaulted or raped?
Who decides if itís honest? You and I seem to disagree.


Quote:
If Carroll is indeed being honest, do you think she's done wrong by speaking out? If so, then it would seem her honesty is irrelevant to you - she should have just stayed shut up no matter what.
Since you are asking me, I think itís likely a mistake. If she is being honest I wonít say she is doing, but I think she is making a mistake if she is seeking justice. I think a better choice would be to file charges.

If she is being honest, and her goal is not justice, but something else, like sell books, hurt Trumpís chances for election, etc. than I do think she is doing wrong, ethically. I donít think thatís likely, though.
  #183  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:06 PM
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If you feel itís a fun and rewarding topic, be my guest. I just prefer not to participate.
Except you did participate. You chose to relay the account of Ms. Carroll in the way you did. I believe you did so in a way that misrepresented her account in an effort to discredit her (whether on your own or because that's how the story had wrongly been conveyed to you). And then you criticized those who do things to discourage sexual assault victims from coming forward.

Whether you are declining to defend your apparently misleading account of the assault and Ms. Carroll's actions since then out of preference or inability scarcely matters. What matters is that you gave a still-unsupported account of a sexual assault and aftermath that seems to be at odds with the accuser's account and that makes the accuser look bad, and then lamented the fact that sexual assault victims are sometimes unwilling to come forward and wondered why that is the case.
  #184  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:12 PM
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Carroll's account definitely has the ring of truth.

Many rape victims feel conflicted because they think they should have done more to stop the assault, and feel foolish and stupid for "letting" it progress to the point it did. She knows that trying on lingerie for a creeper was not a good decision, and she's probably beat herself up endlessly for it, and blamed herself on some level for her being in the position she was in, even while knowing that she was IN NO WAY at fault for the assault. That would make her very unlikely to want to report it, knowing that others would judge her the same way she likely felt herself. I can totally get that. I know MANY women who have't reported assaults for this very reason.

If she were to have made up an attack, I am POSITIVE she would have made up a tighter story that didn't put herself in this position of being second-guessed. Why would she have made up a story that people could pick holes in and accuse her of bringing it on herself? She could have just as easily come up with a story that had her completely "blameless" in the eyes of skeptics.

That, coupled with her jeopardizing her livelihood at the time had she reported it, and having reported it to 2 friends at the time it occurred, is pretty convincing to me. Sure, it's not proof, but it's highly persuasive.
  #185  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn't cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn't really happen.
So would you have believed her if sheíd come out with the same story 20 years ago? Or would you be seizing on something else to justify doubt? Be honest.

And care to explain your rationale for asking this?

Quote:
And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men?
Maybe because sheís a woman whose had the misfortune of encountering more than one jerk in her life? Iím mean, what could you possibly be hinting at?
  #186  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:37 PM
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"Birnbach said she remembers Carroll "laughing" as she told the story. She said repeatedly that Trump pulled down her tights. Birnbach said at first she was laughing, too,"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mp/1582453001/
  #187  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:41 PM
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“ Other paths for justice”. Sounds like a dog whistle for mob rule, vigilantism, or trial by media. I’m not a fan.

People are free to do what they like and discuss what they like with whom they like. Personally, if I am being asked, I would say that the justice system is the best place to accuse someone of a crime.

If they choose to discuss it publically and make it a media thing than I think it is ok for me to share my opinion.
I'm not a fan of those things either -- considering the general powerlessness of victims of prominent men, I don't think those are likely. Trump has suffered nothing despite over a dozen credible allegations and his own admissions of assault and violations of consent. Our society still treats victims/accusers like shit, and you're just piling on. You can share your opinion, but by piling on in the way you are, you're making it harder for girls and women in the future.

Quote:
Who decides if it’s honest? You and I seem to disagree.
There's no way to know with certainty at this time... which means we shouldn't be denigrating and dismissing the party with significantly less power (i.e. the one who's not the president). Or accusing her of lying with absolutely no evidence.

If your daughter had such an experience, and accused a powerful man, would you be happy with strangers calling her a liar with no evidence?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-28-2019 at 05:42 PM.
  #188  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:43 PM
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Except you did participate. You chose to relay the account of Ms. Carroll in the way you did. I believe you did so in a way that misrepresented her account in an effort to discredit her (whether on your own or because that's how the story had wrongly been conveyed to you). And then you criticized those who do things to discourage sexual assault victims from coming forward.

Whether you are declining to defend your apparently misleading account of the assault and Ms. Carroll's actions since then out of preference or inability scarcely matters. What matters is that you gave a still-unsupported account of a sexual assault and aftermath that seems to be at odds with the accuser's account and that makes the accuser look bad, and then lamented the fact that sexual assault victims are sometimes unwilling to come forward and wondered why that is the case.
I donít expect a response from Carroll.
  #189  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:54 PM
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Andy:

She’s chosen to make her accusation in the media and publicly rather than through the justice system. Deciding and debating whether or not we think she has told the truth is perfectly proper under these circumstances.

Last edited by Scylla; 06-28-2019 at 05:54 PM.
  #190  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:03 PM
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Andy:

Sheís chosen to make her accusation in the media and publicly rather than through the justice system. Deciding and debating whether or not we think she has told the truth is perfectly proper under these circumstances.
You've presented no evidence she's not telling the truth. By making such accusations with absolutely no evidence, you're making it harder for women in the future.
  #191  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:08 PM
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"Birnbach said she remembers Carroll "laughing" as she told the story. She said repeatedly that Trump pulled down her tights. Birnbach said at first she was laughing, too,"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mp/1582453001/
We can read the link, too, ya' know.

To continue with the story:

Quote:
... but as Carroll continued she stopped, realizing what her friend was describing was rape.
"Honestly, you said 'he put his penis in me,'" Birnbach recalls. "And I said 'what? He raped you?'"

Birnbach said she encouraged Carroll to go to the police. She said she would go with her, but Carroll declined.
"It was 15 minutes of my life. It's over. Don't ever tell anybody. I just had to tell you," Birnbach remembers Carroll saying.
Sometime later, between one and three days, Carroll told Martin. She was no longer laughing.
"She was like, 'I can't believe this happened." Martin said.
Are you quoting a contemporaneous account to suggest that it did not happen, or that Trump did, in fact, screw a woman in a dressing room without her consent, but it simply isn't serious enough to care about?

Because I don't understand how you can quote this confirmation as anything other than evidence that Trump, did, in fact put his penis in a woman without her consent, as verified by two people who were told at the time.
  #192  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:12 PM
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No, I think you're 100% wrong on this. And frankly my statement is what the "me too" movement is all about in my opinion.

When I was in junior high school a cousin of mine had a similar experience and the advice that she received was that "only you can make you a victim. Are you going to do something about it? Is this going to define you this way?" She took action, went to the authorities, went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

This forced me to confront an issue that I had a number of years prior, and I initially didn't handle it the way my female cousin did. I hid and didn't confront it. I'm not going to go into details, and I don't want any sympathy or discussion about it, but I'll just say it involved a 12 year old boy as a piano student (me) and a priest piano instructor. So I had to ask myself some questions, and assess what my life was going to be. Then I had to confront some issues that no 15 year old male in the 1970s wanted to discuss with his mother, or father, his school friends or the church I'll tell 'ya. And I went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn't cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn't really happen. The world is tough, and if you want to get through it, well, sometimes hard is f'ing authorized. And if and when that philosophy permeates our culture and pushes the victim mentality out of it, our country will be a better place, and bullies will realize that they have no place to hide. I thought that was what the whole me too movement was all about. People who are abused aren't going to be victims any more. We're going to grab the bull by the horns and take some action.
Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are ďmadder than hell and they are not going to take it anymoreĒ, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud.

This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all?
  #193  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:17 PM
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Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are ďmadder than hell and they are not going to take it anymoreĒ, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud.

This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all?
Exactly. The point is victims and survivors can tell their stories however they wish, and we should celebrate that they come forward at all. In whatever way they find comfortable.

Maybe in the far future our society will actually be fair, and such folks won't be treated like dogshit. Until then, we should be bending over backwards to make sure we're as welcoming as possible for people to honestly tell their stories, in whatever way they see fit.
  #194  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:21 PM
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Wow, you do have an issue with the military. Does it color every issue for you?
The military has as bad a history around sexual assaults as the Catholic priesthood has. Damn straight I have issues with both of them. They both are organizations that profess to hold higher standards than the civilian population and both fail to live up to those standards in utterly disgusting ways.

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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
No, I think you're 100% wrong on this. And frankly my statement is what the "me too" movement is all about in my opinion.

When I was in junior high school a cousin of mine had a similar experience and the advice that she received was that "only you can make you a victim. Are you going to do something about it? Is this going to define you this way?" She took action, went to the authorities, went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

This forced me to confront an issue that I had a number of years prior, and I initially didn't handle it the way my female cousin did. I hid and didn't confront it. I'm not going to go into details, and I don't want any sympathy or discussion about it, but I'll just say it involved a 12 year old boy as a piano student (me) and a priest piano instructor. So I had to ask myself some questions, and assess what my life was going to be. Then I had to confront some issues that no 15 year old male in the 1970s wanted to discuss with his mother, or father, his school friends or the church I'll tell 'ya. And I went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it.

So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn't cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head.
The two of you are not everybody and do not represent everybody.

Quote:
And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn't really happen. The world is tough, and if you want to get through it, well, sometimes hard is f'ing authorized.
Ever hear of blaming the victim? You're doing it. And it makes your concluding remarks irrelevant and nonsensical.

Quote:
And if and when that philosophy permeates our culture and pushes the victim mentality out of it, our country will be a better place, and bullies will realize that they have no place to hide. I thought that was what the whole me too movement was all about. People who are abused aren't going to be victims any more. We're going to grab the bull by the horns and take some action.
Though this may be true, you've lost any credibility to say it. Carroll did take action, and in a far more public way than almost anybody. She did so when the time was right for her. You do not get a say in her timing. You do not get a say in any part of her life, especially if you think she's lying in the first place. You do not get to have it both ways.
  #195  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:30 PM
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We can read the link, too, ya' know.
Are you quoting a contemporaneous account to suggest that it did not happen, or that Trump did, in fact, screw a woman in a dressing room without her consent, but it simply isn't serious enough to care about?

Because I don't understand how you can quote this confirmation as anything other than evidence that Trump, did, in fact put his penis in a woman without her consent, as verified by two people who were told at the time.
I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn't even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape.
  #196  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn't even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape.
You know what, with no evidence this baseless supposition is simply trolling. This is a warning for trolling. And you are prohibited from posting further in this thread.

[/moderating]
  #197  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn't even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape.
I see Bone's moderation (and, FWIW, I don't agree with it - yes, I understand that belongs elsewhere), so I hope I'm not out of bounds. But given this description of Lisa Birnbach, I think it's only fair to describe her as she does on her website.

Quote:
Lisa Birnbach is an award-winning journalist, cultural commentator and bestselling author. Celebrated for her keen eye, sharp wit and humor, Lisa is a media favorite. Best known as the author of The New York Times bestsellers, The Official Preppy Handbook and True Prep, sheís published 20 other books, which have been translated into a dozen languages. The Preppy Handbook became a runaway bestseller and a tongue-in-cheek reference guide for a generation. Sheís written for The New York Times, The New Yorker, Parade, Rolling Stone, New York, and other magazines in addition to Yahoo! She was a correspondent on CBSís The Early Show for three years, and hosted The Lisa Birnbach Show, a daily syndicated radio show which received the Gracie Awards in 2007 for Outstanding Talk Show, and Outstanding Humor Show.
  #198  
Old 06-28-2019, 06:54 PM
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I see Bone's moderation (and, FWIW, I don't agree with it - yes, I understand that belongs elsewhere), so I hope I'm not out of bounds. But given this description of Lisa Birnbach, I think it's only fair to describe her as she does on her website.
Questions or discussion about moderation goes in ATMB. No more in this thread.

[/moderating]
  #199  
Old 06-28-2019, 07:12 PM
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You've presented no evidence she's not telling the truth.
Her story provides no evidence. Itís just a story. No evidence is necessary to refute it.

Quote:
By making such accusations with absolutely no evidence, you're making it harder for women in the future.
Sure.
  #200  
Old 06-28-2019, 07:19 PM
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Her story is evidence, in and of itself. And in the vast majority of rape cases thatís all there will ever be. Are you suggesting that in the vast majority of rape cases, the victim is obligated to keep ēs mouth shut forever?

According to Muslim law, a woman must have the corroboration of four men who have seen the penetration with their own eyes in order for a charge of rape to be confirmed. Otherwise the woman will be charged with adultery.

Sounds like there are some folks here who would be more comfortable with that standard.
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