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  #101  
Old 07-04-2019, 02:59 PM
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Still, I'm just wondering how anyone can just so flippantly deny it.

I mean the question seems to come from the line of reasoning of where did we come from and tracing that all the way back to the beginning of the universe, so in a sense you ARE the universe. That this sense or idea of separate beings is in our heads and that there is no "one" or self inside your head pulling the strings.
  #102  
Old 07-04-2019, 03:13 PM
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Still, I'm just wondering how anyone can just so flippantly deny it.

Because it is a deeply stupid question deserving nothing but derision.
  #103  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:07 PM
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  #104  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:29 PM
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Because it is a deeply stupid question deserving nothing but derision.
Can you explain your reason, much of the devotees who think so (and who did the meditation I linked) say that unless you have done all the levels then you don't really understand or can't comment about it.

I just want to know the reason WHY it is dumb. Like I said in the above I think it has to do with the line of reasoning about where did X come from and tracing that all the way back.
  #105  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:48 PM
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Can you explain your reason, much of the devotees who think so (and who did the meditation I linked) say that unless you have done all the levels then you don't really understand or can't comment about it.

I just want to know the reason WHY it is dumb. Like I said in the above I think it has to do with the line of reasoning about where did X come from and tracing that all the way back.

Because a part of a thing contained within a thing is not the whole thing. Do you think that you are Florida? Do you think that you are The United States? Do you think that you are the planet Earth? Do you think that you are the Milky Way Galaxy? Do you think that you are the Local Group? Do you think that you are the Virgo Supercluster? Do you think that you are the Pices-Cetus Supercluster? The question is complete and utter gibberish and the "devotees" are a bunch of pathetic, deluded, superstitious ignoramuses. You might as well be asking "Is my dog Tuesday?" or "Do colorless green ideas sleep furiously?" It is not even wrong.
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison
Because it is a deeply stupid question deserving nothing but derision.
Can you explain your reason, much of the devotees who think so (and who did the meditation I linked) say that unless you have done all the levels then you don't really understand or can't comment about it.

I just want to know the reason WHY it is dumb. Like I said in the above I think it has to do with the line of reasoning about where did X come from and tracing that all the way back.
You don't like it when what you've said is dismissed and derided as dumb, but you sort of did the same thing to me when I gave you a serious reply.
  #107  
Old 07-04-2019, 05:12 PM
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Read more fiction.
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  #108  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:35 PM
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Because a part of a thing contained within a thing is not the whole thing. Do you think that you are Florida? Do you think that you are The United States? Do you think that you are the planet Earth? Do you think that you are the Milky Way Galaxy? Do you think that you are the Local Group? Do you think that you are the Virgo Supercluster? Do you think that you are the Pices-Cetus Supercluster? The question is complete and utter gibberish and the "devotees" are a bunch of pathetic, deluded, superstitious ignoramuses. You might as well be asking "Is my dog Tuesday?" or "Do colorless green ideas sleep furiously?" It is not even wrong.
I'm guessing they are referring to there being no essence to a thing in that something cannot exist independently of anything else. Like how without trees, oxygen, plants and animals we would not be able to exist and that without the Earth we wouldn't exist. That without the elements prior to Earth the Earth would not exist and so on and so forth. Or as they told me, before you there was the universe, which seems much like this line of reasoning.

But you gave me just a bunch of questions and not really an explanation of why you aren't it. It does sound similar to Buddhism about how nothing exists independently of anything else.
  #109  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:38 PM
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Boy, have I been missing out on life! All I need is a lab magnet and some accurate trans-cranial stimulation and all my problems would be toast. I can envision a society where everyone wears a magnetic hat that constantly screws with the brain. A happy, happy society.
All that means is that religious experiences are merely just rewiring the brain, there isn't anything supernatural or insightful about any of them (though people will think otherwise). It would be like saying other brain states are the "true" reality, and again the mystics and sages of the past could not have know the profound effects the brain has on our lives so they believed such experiences to be divine or whatever.
  #110  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:12 PM
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But you gave me just a bunch of questions and not really an explanation of why you aren't it.

I did explain it, you just appear to be congenitally incapable of understanding simple English.
  #111  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:27 PM
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Can you explain your reason, much of the devotees who think so (and who did the meditation I linked) say that unless you have done all the levels then you don't really understand or can't comment about it.

I just want to know the reason WHY it is dumb. Like I said in the above I think it has to do with the line of reasoning about where did X come from and tracing that all the way back.
Because all you ever DO here is ask us a bunch of pseudo intellectual riddles and post a bunch of philosophical nonsense. Did you ever think about talking to a therapist?

You're so obsessed with all of this. It's not helping you.
  #112  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:30 PM
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I did explain it, you just appear to be congenitally incapable of understanding simple English.
And I explained why your explanation was not it and how they are referring to something akin to dependent origination like in Buddhism.
  #113  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:40 AM
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Because all you ever DO here is ask us a bunch of pseudo intellectual riddles and post a bunch of philosophical nonsense. Did you ever think about talking to a therapist?

You're so obsessed with all of this. It's not helping you.
Therapy doesn’t help because the problem is the content being said.

Like I mentioned I above he didn’t really refute the point they make but just ask a bunch of questions. Later when I likened it to Buddhist concepts of no-self or dependent origination they still said it was nonsense. I can’t just reject something because someone says it’s nonsense. My guess is that the you are the universe is rooted in the Buddhist parts of dependent origination, in that nothing exists independently of anything else but is enmeshed and connected to everything. Nothing would exist without everything else around it. That to suggest an “I” would be to suggest some kind of core or self that doesn’t truly exist.
  #114  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:47 AM
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Therapy doesn’t help because the problem is the content being said.
Therapy doesn't help if you don't go to a therapist.
And any advice given doesn't work if you are driven to finding problems and not solutions.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 07-05-2019 at 11:48 AM.
  #115  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:40 PM
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Can you explain your reason, much of the devotees who think so (and who did the meditation I linked) say that unless you have done all the levels then you don't really understand or can't comment about it.
Because it’s a scam. You’re going to start by paying some relatively modest sum for some knowledge or information ( whether it’s the true nature of the universe or how to get rich investing in real estate.) Then once you’ve done that, you find that you can ONLY get the secret by paying a somewhat less modest sum for the next level or next course.

Then you’ll just get more teasers and maybe some peripheral information, because the REAL secret will be revealed in the next level, which is even more expensive.

It’s a psychological trick to keep drawing you into the scam. And the people that have already consumed the Kool-Aid, as it were, are going to encourage other people to follow in their footsteps. Because it validates their own decisions.
  #116  
Old 07-06-2019, 12:20 AM
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Because it’s a scam. You’re going to start by paying some relatively modest sum for some knowledge or information ( whether it’s the true nature of the universe or how to get rich investing in real estate.) Then once you’ve done that, you find that you can ONLY get the secret by paying a somewhat less modest sum for the next level or next course.

Then you’ll just get more teasers and maybe some peripheral information, because the REAL secret will be revealed in the next level, which is even more expensive.

It’s a psychological trick to keep drawing you into the scam. And the people that have already consumed the Kool-Aid, as it were, are going to encourage other people to follow in their footsteps. Because it validates their own decisions.
Well for the broward meditation it is for sure, it’s taking me some time to see that. But I was referring to things like this:

“The "inevitable" demise is the illusion itself. There limitation of having only those "options" is the illusion - the notion of "utility" is what is samsara/maya. When the man realizes that he is neither the doer of action, nor the enjoyer of the strawberry, has no volition nor efficacy and that he is the tiger himself as well as the strawberry as well as the man - then he has metaphorically climbed up and killed the tiger. You are right in the sense that it is not an "option" - killing the tiger is the reality, the true reality, beyond the "options." It is scary because it is not meant for the faint hearted, However, on a tangible non spiritual level you are correct, however if after reading this you still believe that you exist as an individual conscious being in between birth and death and have to get "the most you can" out of "life" then I have not done a good job with this, and have failed you. Truth is you don't need the strawberry, never did - and yes you can "win" against the tiger. But don't take my word for it, try it yourself.”

Based on the story linked here about the Tiger and the Strawberry: https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289...html?success=1
  #117  
Old 07-06-2019, 02:22 AM
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Therapy doesn't help if you don't go to a therapist.
And any advice given doesn't work if you are driven to finding problems and not solutions.
I have been going to one for years, he can't help with these questions.
  #118  
Old 07-06-2019, 01:14 PM
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And as I thought there wasn't a good rebuttal to their claim about being the universe.
  #119  
Old 07-06-2019, 03:33 PM
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Things that can't be explained, and don't make sense, don't need to be refuted.

I am not the universe. There is a reality outside me. I have models in my head, that match to things in that universe, to a better or worse degree. If they don't match, I modify or abandon them. But that's because there is something outside my head to which they can be compared, and seen to match or not match or partially match. If I try to abandon all my models, that doesn't affect the outside universe at all. All it does is cause me to be unable to process or interact with the universe.

The models aren't the universe. The universe exists outside the models. The stuff you have quoted doesn't mean anything - that is, there is nothing in the universe that it is a good model of. So it doesn't need to be refuted - just recognize that it has no meaning, and that the people who are pitching it are trying to get over on you and get your money.

Regards,
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  #120  
Old 07-06-2019, 11:46 PM
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Things that can't be explained, and don't make sense, don't need to be refuted.

I am not the universe. There is a reality outside me. I have models in my head, that match to things in that universe, to a better or worse degree. If they don't match, I modify or abandon them. But that's because there is something outside my head to which they can be compared, and seen to match or not match or partially match. If I try to abandon all my models, that doesn't affect the outside universe at all. All it does is cause me to be unable to process or interact with the universe.

The models aren't the universe. The universe exists outside the models. The stuff you have quoted doesn't mean anything - that is, there is nothing in the universe that it is a good model of. So it doesn't need to be refuted - just recognize that it has no meaning, and that the people who are pitching it are trying to get over on you and get your money.

Regards,
Shodan
I don't think it's a grab to get money. But then again the only thing that link has is a story, his interpretation of what it really means, and another story about not chasing experiences and focusing on "liberation". But the bits about being immortal and suffering not being real are just his say so, and even BUddhist tales are just that tales. They are told to confirm a point of view in a sense. As for being the universe the only evidence they gave me was that before me there was the universe. By that I guess it means that I don't exist independently of anything else, that I came from it and therefor am it. The most I can buy is being a part of the whole, but that's it.

What I find curious is how many paths claim to have the ultimate truth and a way to get it, while atheists I speak to just tell me that this is what we think based on the evidence, but we can't be 100%. It's by far the most honest and refreshing approach I know.

I think in response to you "if it doesn't make sense", some of these Eastern paths make a note of going beyond logic or the human conception of what we believe things to be. I usually don't have an answer to that. There is also some claim as to there being no self and that neuroscience is getting close to that.
  #121  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:53 AM
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A sane response might have to do with what Carl Sagan said about "if you want to make an apple pie from scratch you need to invent the universe". In the you exist in a web of connections and not as something standalone, although using that as a metaphor for being the universe seems iffy to me.
  #122  
Old 07-07-2019, 02:01 AM
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My money, after some thought, it on the web of connections.
  #123  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:07 PM
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Let's just settle it again once and for all. Are you, or other people, an object that measures many light-years wide? No? Then game over.
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Old 07-07-2019, 04:23 PM
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Let's just settle it again once and for all. Are you, or other people, an object that measures many light-years wide? No? Then game over.

Well, the questions that he asks aren't vast, but they are half-way there.
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Old 07-07-2019, 05:51 PM
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Let's just settle it again once and for all. Are you, or other people, an object that measures many light-years wide? No? Then game over.
But what if it’s not meant to be literal like in the like where the guy says you are the tiger. Another part where he says you aren’t the doer of the deed or the enjoyer of the strawberry.
  #126  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:55 PM
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But what if it’s not meant to be literal like in the like where the guy says you are the tiger. Another part where he says you aren’t the doer of the deed or the enjoyer of the strawberry.
If it is not meant to be literal, then the only answer is "maybe, if that is how you see it". If you don't like that answer, then tell us what answer would make you happy.
edited to add: And if you would please directly quote someone who actually said this we might be able to put it into some sort of context. Your interpretation of what you think the context is will not help.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 07-07-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #127  
Old 07-07-2019, 06:32 PM
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Never mind guys, it turns out that isn't true and the site that I got it from is a cult in disguise: http://woomyung.com/meditation-metho...tation-method/
Well, they even try to tip you off by putting woo right there in the name, my yung'n.
  #128  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:04 PM
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I have been going to one for years, he can't help with these questions.
What does he tell you about them? Just curious.
  #129  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:25 PM
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If it is not meant to be literal, then the only answer is "maybe, if that is how you see it". If you don't like that answer, then tell us what answer would make you happy.
edited to add: And if you would please directly quote someone who actually said this we might be able to put it into some sort of context. Your interpretation of what you think the context is will not help.
This is the link I mean: https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289...html?success=1

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The purpose is neither Humility nor Happiness/Peace. It is to stand up and realize that you are not dependent on any of those things. Granted, I may do this by a harsh any-means-necessary approach that smacks of arrogance but If this has not inspired you to stand up to that tiger instead of retreating back to "bliss" then yes, I have failed you. 'You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.' Humililty, Peace, Happiness, Guys in Orange Robes vs. Guys on Red Carpets, You vs. Me, all that is just part of the system. I don't expect you to be "convinced" - it was my duty to try, and if someone was motivated instead of offended - all the better. This post was for that person, even though it is for you just as much.
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The "inevitable" demise is the illusion itself. There limitation of having only those "options" is the illusion - the notion of "utility" is what is samsara/maya. When the man realizes that he is neither the doer of action, nor the enjoyer of the strawberry, has no volition nor efficacy and that he is the tiger himself as well as the strawberry as well as the man - then he has metaphorically climbed up and killed the tiger. You are right in the sense that it is not an "option" - killing the tiger is the reality, the true reality, beyond the "options." It is scary because it is not meant for the faint hearted, However, on a tangible non spiritual level you are correct, however if after reading this you still believe that you exist as an individual conscious being in between birth and death and have to get "the most you can" out of "life" then I have not done a good job with this, and have failed you. Truth is you don't need the strawberry, never did - and yes you can "win" against the tiger. But don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
This is the quote I got it from.
  #130  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:33 PM
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There were a few bits here on a koan page which I think imply similar: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/zen-b...b0631799115f3c

But as soon as I saw they were referencing that the world isn't something "out here" or that from nothing the mind comes "not true", I started to think otherwise. It seems like these people don't understand how the universe came to be and think awareness is some miracle.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:02 PM
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This is the link I mean: https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289...html?success=1

This is the quote I got it from.
No-Where did the quote about you being the universe come from? Please provide a direct link so that we might possibly read it in context.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:44 PM
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It's more like a phrase you hear being said around. The Broward people call it "becoming the universe or realizing you are the universe", the page I linked to mentions it as well, the koans I also linked hint to it in how they challenge the notion of identity or essence, and then you have "scientific" aspects here: https://www.kosmosjournal.org/articl...-the-universe/
Or here:https://www.pinterest.com/pin/432204895485923473/

The responses on this reddit give a better detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/StonerPhilo...encing_itself/

Well at least the first few replies:

Quote:
What it means?

Atoms are not discrete balls floating in space. They are more point-like excitations of a field. (Think of standing waves in a body of water.)

There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole. You are not a small and lonely being lost in a foreign universe; you are a direct expression of the whole of the universe as it currently is; you (as everything else) is a brief movement in the dance of nature. You do not exist independent of the perceived outside; outside and inside are two sides of the same coin.

The seed is no different from the tree. They are the same thing viewed from different perspectives in time. Birth and death are really no different; waking life is really no different from dreamless sleep.

The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself.

The ocean waves; the planet rotates; the sun shines; the heart beats; the stomach digests; the brain thinks; the body acts. These events are no different in nature. The thinker of thoughts is the waver of oceans, not a little man behind the eyes of the body; the waver of the ocean is spontaneous, as is the thinker of thoughts. Nature is not being moved; nature flows without direction; nature is not concerened with tomorrow, for it is dancing today.

Look at a tree, see how it moves in the wind.

Notice your thoughts arising, even the thought "I am thinking."

Notice that the movement of the tree and the movement of thought are two expressions of the same thing.

Stop labeling the tree and yourself; notice that all separation is a consequence of the labeling process; allow all boundaries to dissolve.

Feel the swaying of the tree as much as you feel the arising thoughts and the other bodily sensations.

Feel intuitively that what you refer to as I is a form in the universe experiencing itself.
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If you understand this and it is not significant, than you have known it for a while now.

I think the aha moments mostly come from people raised to believe in predestination or our bodies being a "temple" kind of thinking. It can often be rather disturbing to those who haven't before thought about the meaning, or lack there of, of sentient life among a universe filled with inanimate matter.

For me it was looking into my friends eyes and realizing that there really isn't that big of a separation between me and him at the atomic level, we are just atoms rearranged to move through space unpredictably, and at our most deconstructed for we are no more than the minerals in the earth.

The shock comes from (for me) the realization that everything you have ever experienced, everything everyone has experienced, all the pain, anguish, love, and efforts we put into our lives is done and experienced by nothing more than a unique collections of particles, nothing more. It can bring about a certain fear, carelessness or comfort to one's live when you understand that all human emotion is but a complex electric signal communication network between cells and that all conscious observers are really all the same being that split into two cells at the beginning of life. We share one consciousness with all other life forms. There is no self. The individual is an illusion. Death of the ego.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:48 PM
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This seems like a more sane response from a Quora page asking the same:
https://www.quora.com/Are-we-simply-...-consciousness
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Probably not. It seems that our organisms benefit from complex information processing, and hence evolved a bunch of fat cells into biological computers: our brains. These biological computers count the impulses of sensory neurons in extremely fancy ways, to predict future sensory input, with respect to the needs of the organism. These fancy ways include the generation of a dynamic world model, including a self model, and an integrated protocol of operations performed on this world model. I think it is this integrated protocol that we experience as our consciousness.

Consciousness by itself is neutral: it does not want anything, and it does not identify with anything. To make our regulatory processes want anything, the organism corrupts them with an elaborate motivational system, creating pleasure and pain and various impulses, directed on future pleasure and pain. To make our regulatory processes identify with anything, the organism corrupts them with experiences of perspectivity, personhood, agency, a proprioceptive body image etc.

Through meditation, we can turn off or modify these bindings, and as a result, may experience out-of-body experiences, depersonalization, loss of agency or feelings that we cause everything in the world to happen, loss of our bodily sensations or the impression that we are one with the universe, with God, with Gaia, with cells, with elementary particles, with another person, with a plant or with another arbitrary imagination. This may feel very surprising and overwhelming at first, but the miracle is not that you can experience not being you, but that you usually believe to be you!

I suspect that the idea that our consciousness is a “narrowing down” of a universal consciousness is often the result of such experiences. But the universe is nothing that we can ever experience: our brains do not have access to the world “out there”, but only to a few electrical blips coming in through our sensory neurons. The particles in the sensors of these neurons do not touch the universe, but are merely entangled with particles that are an almost infinitesimal distance away. From the fluctuating patterns in these entanglements, our biological computers construct a dynamic universe. The universe exists inside of our brains: outside, there is only a pattern generator with an unknowable structure. If we experience that we are the consciousness of the universe itself, we are experiencing our normal integration process that is not properly identifying with our personal self model, but instead with our whole world model. We are still experiencing a representation created by our brains.

It is quite plausible that organisms gain evolutionary advantages from minds, that they represent structure discovered in sensory patterns, that minds can be generated by brain activity, and that brains can be evolved by multicellular organisms. Conversely, it is not clear what advantage a universe gains by having a mind, what environment a universe would represent in its mind, what parts of greater cosmology create the universe’s mental activity, and how and why that universal mind would have formed. Cosmic consciousness is a beautiful idea, but it makes very little sense.

Individual human beings likely do not partake in the same general consciousness (and how would they know: they have no way of truly experiencing one another; humans know each other only as projections that their brains create based on the available sensory patterns). But if individual humans turn off the personality bindings of their respective consciousnesses, they will no longer experience a difference between self and other, because their representation of their own personhood is no longer privileged over the representation they form of another person.

Please note that I do not deny the experience that you are describing in your question. I just do not think that the experience indicates that the universe is conscious. (Even if it was, we could not know.) Instead, the experience of depersonalization (or satori) gives us valuable insights in how our brain creates a mind.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:23 PM
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I get why the expression "waves on an ocean" means when they use it now.

Though if this were true it would kind of render everything pretty pointless.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:32 AM
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LIke I said it was in pieces across the internet.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:59 AM
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LIke I said it was in pieces across the internet.
Then the source of the quote is yourself, since you are the one that put the pieces together.
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Old 07-08-2019, 01:18 AM
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I'm not, didn't you see all the paragraphs explaining it?
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:28 AM
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I’m mostly wondering about the one in regards to atoms. The most I get from looking on the internet is that they are mostly empty space not excitations in a field.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:10 PM
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Well, the questions that he asks aren't vast, but they are half-way there.
Nice pun.

I'm trying to remember who said "I am two with the universe." I think it was someone in a comic book.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:13 PM
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Gandhi is always calling the pizza shop down the street and asking them to make him one with everything.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:26 PM
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Gandhi is always calling the pizza shop down the street and asking them to make him one with everything.

It definitely wasn't the Dalai Lama.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:50 PM
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You guys missing the point, and the science, that seems to back this.
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:12 PM
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You guys missing the point, and the science, that seems to back this.
Isn’t your whole point that you’re the universe, and that each of us ‘guys’ is also actually the universe, which means — carry the one — you’re missing the point?
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:32 PM
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  #145  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:22 PM
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Isn’t your whole point that you’re the universe, and that each of us ‘guys’ is also actually the universe, which means — carry the one — you’re missing the point?
No you guys are. You asked me where I got it from and I showed it, you asked me to explain it and I did. So far no one is able to refute these things I posted.

Additionally I think it’s rooted in that you don’t exist independently of anything else, hence being connected to everything or in this case being an expression of the universe. There is no you just the “one”, or so they say.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:24 PM
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No you guys are. You asked me where I got it from and I showed it, you asked me to explain it and I did. So far no one is able to refute these things I posted.
No one needs to “refute” what you posted. Your stated position eventually boiled down to, oh, hey, no, it’s not literally true; there’s no reason to “refute” that, it’s already the correct response: if someone claims that you are the universe, you now stand ready to “refute” that by saying, uh, that’s literally not true.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:39 PM
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No one needs to “refute” what you posted. Your stated position eventually boiled down to, oh, hey, no, it’s not literally true; there’s no reason to “refute” that, it’s already the correct response: if someone claims that you are the universe, you now stand ready to “refute” that by saying, uh, that’s literally not true.
But I posted those two paragraphs that explained it on more scientific terms and not the “wooey” sort of nonsense that just leave questions.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:41 PM
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Since I bothered to wade through the last page, of the thread I'll contribute the Universes two cents worth.

The theory seems to be everything is connected so nothing is separate therefore we are all one. I see no way to refute this if you could believe it. If the suns rays touching me make me part of the sun then the sun never sets since I am always on the side of the planet I'm on.

In the end I'm not sure what to do with this information. Obviously the sun sets or I can fit in side my house and we can't all be the sun or there is no definition to anything. You are not the tiger because you can kill the tiger and go on living and the tiger is not the strawberry because you can destroy the strawberry yet the tiger continues. With this frame work you have two choices assume the bus is part of you and won't hurt you when you step in front of it or assume the frame work is crap and stay on the sidewalk.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:44 PM
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Since I bothered to wade through the last page, of the thread I'll contribute the Universes two cents worth.

The theory seems to be everything is connected so nothing is separate therefore we are all one. I see no way to refute this if you could believe it. If the suns rays touching me make me part of the sun then the sun never sets since I am always on the side of the planet I'm on.

In the end I'm not sure what to do with this information. Obviously the sun sets or I can fit in side my house and we can't all be the sun or there is no definition to anything. You are not the tiger because you can kill the tiger and go on living and the tiger is not the strawberry because you can destroy the strawberry yet the tiger continues. With this frame work you have two choices assume the bus is part of you and won't hurt you when you step in front of it or assume the frame work is crap and stay on the sidewalk.
I don’t think that’s what the two paragraphs are saying. I know that is what that annablat guy is saying, but all I have is his says so. I can imagine what it feels like to believe that but that doesn’t make it true for me.
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:32 PM
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But I posted those two paragraphs that explained it on more scientific terms and not the “wooey” sort of nonsense that just leave questions.
But that’s just it: what makes the original statement interesting is the read of it that, at worst, can seem like a “wooey” sort of nonsense. But as soon as you start explaining that you merely mean there’s a universe where a twig and the moon and some dead fish are each part of that universe, it’s an uninteresting statement.

Now, you can create some interest by saying that the twig is figuratively the moon or metaphorically those dead fish or whatever — because that makes it seem like you’re on the brink of saying it’s literally those things. It’s as if you’re about to say each of those is, literally, the universe. That would be an interesting claim, as it’s the sort that’d normally be followed by a guy noting that no, that’s not literally true.

But if we start by slowly and patiently saying, no, it’s not literally true, then a guy can already roll his eyes and tap his foot and check his watch as “more scientific terms” get trotted out to support a claim that, again, is blandly uninteresting.

Last edited by The Other Waldo Pepper; 07-08-2019 at 10:34 PM.
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