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Old 06-28-2019, 10:34 PM
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Midway 2019 trailer is up


The trailer for Roland Emmerich's upcoming Midway 2019 has been released and, well, it doesn't look good.

I mean, Emmerich has been quoted as saying he has been wanting to tell the story of Midway for a while. I was hoping this meant he'd be trying to bring some insight and nuance into the battle and the men that fought. I suppose I was expecting too much from the man who gave us 1998's Godzilla.

We open with an Hawaiian estate that apparently fronts Pearl Harbor's Battleship Row where you can get a front row seat to the attack on Pearl. The house quite literally has Pearl Harbor waterfront.

We have Zero's making strafing runs at an altitude of about 10ft as they swarm down the streets of Oahu.

We have a flock of what might be Dauntless dive bombers swanning across the sky in the charlie-foxtrot formation. I am not sure flock is really a fair description, birds would fly an actual formation.

Frankly it looks like an ahistorical mess. We even get a guy who seems to be trying to recreate President Whitmore's speech from Independence Day: "Today we prove the American navy isn't a joke!"

Sheesh.

I think I'll go pop my VHS of 1976's Midway in the old Betamax. It's not perfect. They reused a lot of film from Tora Tora Tora and had to shoehorn in a love interest, but it is a solid tale of both sides that faithfully tries to tell the story of the battle. The John Williams score is great and the cast is one of those epic war movie casts that even includes Tom Selleck and Erik Estrada.

Hmmph. Anyone know how to make this darn thing stop flashing "12:00"?
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:42 PM
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From the thread title, I thought the movie was actually called Midway 2019. I suppose the modern U.S. and Japan could fight it out again, but I daresay the odds have shifted enough to remove all dramatic tension.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:55 PM
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Heh, probably should have parsed that a bit better.
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Old 06-28-2019, 11:17 PM
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Are the CGI aircraft historically accurate and consistent, or do TBFs magically transform into SB2Cs once they're airborne?

At the risk of sounding "anal" , I was watching a documentary the other day in which a B-52 was shown bombing Italy in 1943. Way to go, H2!
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Old 06-29-2019, 01:02 AM
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Looks like you can stream Midway if you have Starz.
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:13 AM
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Are the CGI aircraft historically accurate and consistent, or do TBFs magically transform into SB2Cs once they're airborne?

At the risk of sounding "anal" , I was watching a documentary the other day in which a B-52 was shown bombing Italy in 1943. Way to go, H2!
Can't be any worse than the actual original Midway movie where in a climatic scene a burning SBD Devastator lands on a carrier deck and suddenly turns into a literal jet fighter in the stock footage of an aircraft crash landing happens.

Granted I went into that movie with low-expectations and came out pleasantly surprised. It's no "Tora Tora Tora" or "A Bridge Too Far" but miles better than any of the recent WW2 movies like "Pearl Harbor" or "Fury". The worst part about it is the stock footage that most of the time doesn't match the filmed aircraft at all.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:38 AM
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Can't be any worse than the actual original Midway movie where in a climatic scene a burning SBD Devastator lands on a carrier deck and suddenly turns into a literal jet fighter in the stock footage of an aircraft crash landing happens.

Granted I went into that movie with low-expectations and came out pleasantly surprised. It's no "Tora Tora Tora" or "A Bridge Too Far" but miles better than any of the recent WW2 movies like "Pearl Harbor" or "Fury". The worst part about it is the stock footage that most of the time doesn't match the filmed aircraft at all.
Good ol Chuck Heston....the Sean Bean of his time.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:34 AM
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Rather sad that the only thing you judge a movie on is that they get the technical details correct.

The only important thing in the quality is the story and characters. Anything else is trivial.

The movie may be a disaster (it is Emmerick, after all), but judging it on trivia like that (and not grasping the concept of "dramatic license") is no way to make a critical judgment.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:50 AM
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Rather sad that the only thing you judge a movie on is that they get the technical details correct.

The only important thing in the quality is the story and characters. Anything else is trivial.

The movie may be a disaster (it is Emmerick, after all), but judging it on trivia like that (and not grasping the concept of "dramatic license") is no way to make a critical judgment.

I've seen this. I love how at the end President Lincoln (played by Dakota Fanning) flies down in his F-14 and personally sinks the whole Japanese navy by dropping those metal-eating robot piranhas in the water. I know that some of those details weren't technically correct, but boy what a story and character! And to think, I might not have utilized the one and only proper way for judging a film if you hadn't set me straight!
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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Rather sad that the only thing you judge a movie on is that they get the technical details correct.

The only important thing in the quality is the story and characters. Anything else is trivial.

The movie may be a disaster (it is Emmerick, after all), but judging it on trivia like that (and not grasping the concept of "dramatic license") is no way to make a critical judgment.
Rather sad you assume it's the "only" thing I care about. Also rather sad you object to my opposing ignorance on a site devoted to fighting it.

How much effort would it take to get the technical details correct? Gee, you might actually have to study some of the history of the events you're portraying. Heaven forbid!

If seeing crap like planes change form in midair makes me "anal," then I'm anal. It ain't "artistic license," it's the producers saying "We don't give a shit," and it's jarring to the point where I lose my suspension of disbelief.
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:33 AM
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Can't be any worse than the actual original Midway movie where in a climatic scene a burning SBD Devastator lands on a carrier deck and suddenly turns into a literal jet fighter in the stock footage of an aircraft crash landing happens.

Granted I went into that movie with low-expectations and came out pleasantly surprised. It's no "Tora Tora Tora" or "A Bridge Too Far" but miles better than any of the recent WW2 movies like "Pearl Harbor" or "Fury". The worst part about it is the stock footage that most of the time doesn't match the filmed aircraft at all.
Stock footage is almost always used wrong; better to just leave it out wherever possible. With today's CGI, there's no excuse for boners like the above, though the physics of the animation are usually laughable.
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:37 AM
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If seeing seeing crap like planes change form in midair makes me "anal," then I'm anal. It ain't "artistic license," it's the producers saying "We don't give a shit," and it's jarring to the point where I lose my suspension of disbelief.
It's also insulting to the audience. They may be ignorant enough not to know the difference, but it's wrong to automatically assume that. I certainly know it, as do many of the people I know.
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:44 AM
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I've seen this. I love how at the end President Lincoln (played by Dakota Fanning) flies down in his F-14 and personally sinks the whole Japanese navy by dropping those metal-eating robot piranhas in the water. I know that some of those details weren't technically correct, but boy what a story and character! And to think, I might not have utilized the one and only proper way for judging a film if you hadn't set me straight!
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:52 AM
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I think in this version George Gay climbs out of the water onto a carrier and kills Tojo with a homemade crossbow.

This time, it's personnel.
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Old 06-29-2019, 10:46 AM
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This movie is going to suck so bad they will have to devise a new standard to measure the suckiness.

RC - This isn't a made-up battle with made-up characters. Therefore the "technical details" are the only thing that matters. The story is known, the characters are set in history. It's all rather well documented. Besides, it's Emmerich. He doesn't employ actors - he rents props.

I'm fully prepared to demand his execution if they get so much as a single unit marking wrong.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:28 AM
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Can't be any worse than the actual original Midway movie where in a climatic scene a burning SBD Devastator lands on a carrier deck and suddenly turns into a literal jet fighter in the stock footage of an aircraft crash landing happens.
Sorry, but the SBD (Scout Bomber, Douglas) was the Dauntless. It was the TBD (Torpedo Bomber, Douglas) that was the Devastator. The Devastator is what VT-8 (Torpedo Squadron 8) was equipped with at Midway, and what Ensign George Gay had shot out from under him so he could see three of the four Japanese fleet carriers get blown all to hell a few minutes later.

[VOICE OF PETER O'TOOLE]: My God, I love being anal! [Puts feet up on desk.]
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:32 AM
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miles better than any of the recent WW2 movies like "Pearl Harbor" or "Fury".
Fury was a very good movie. It had an interesting story which it told well. And I have no complaints about the characters, dialogue, acting (even Shia LaBeouf did okay), or visuals.

I agree Pearl Harbor was bad.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:45 AM
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[VOICE OF PETER O'TOOLE]: My God, I love being anal! [Puts feet up on desk.]
My father was once chatting with a friend of his, with a John Wayne movie playing on TV in the background. Dad's friend glanced over at the TV and mentioned, "That style of saddle was never used, until after [someone I never heard of before or since] used it to win the national rodeo championship in 1926."

Top that!
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:05 PM
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Fury was a very good movie. It had an interesting story which it told well. And I have no complaints about the characters, dialogue, acting (even Shia LaBeouf did okay), or visuals.
They had me fooled with the half CGI/half mockup Tiger they used for the scenes where it was maneuvering. It wasn't until I saw the "Making Of" documentary that I knew it wasn't an actual tank. (They couldn't risk running the world's only operational Tiger in a simulated battle scene.)

Fury was indeed a pretty good movie, though I found it a little hard to believe an SS battalion would walk into such an obvious trap.
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:15 PM
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My father was once chatting with a friend of his, with a John Wayne movie playing on TV in the background. Dad's friend glanced over at the TV and mentioned, "That style of saddle was never used, until after [someone I never heard of before or since] used it to win the national rodeo championship in 1926."

Top that!
Hmmmmm. That's a tough one.

How about this? "The 'crest' sewn on the Proconsul's tunic in the Star Trek (TOS) episode 'Bread and Circuses' is actually William Shakespeare's coat-of-arms."

http://www.rachelwatchesstartrek.com...rcuses_104.jpg

That's pretty anal, innit?
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:25 PM
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Fury was indeed a pretty good movie, though I found it a little hard to believe an SS battalion would walk into such an obvious trap.
Or fail to simply take out the Sherman with one of the many Panzerfausts they were shown carrying.
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:31 PM
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Fury was a very good movie. It had an interesting story which it told well. And I have no complaints about the characters, dialogue, acting (even Shia LaBeouf did okay), or visuals.

I agree Pearl Harbor was bad.
Fury was a great movie up until the final battle which was so stupid it should have been in a Transformers film and pretty much ruined the movie for me.
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:40 PM
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Are the CGI aircraft historically accurate and consistent, or do TBFs magically transform into SB2Cs once they're airborne?

At the risk of sounding "anal" , I was watching a documentary the other day in which a B-52 was shown bombing Italy in 1943. Way to go, H2!
In a just world, if either aircraft were shown flying from a US carrier* everyone involved would be strung up and horsewhipped. Sadly, I can almost guarantee that the first will happen and the second will not.

*There was a flight of six TBFs from Torpedo Eight, but they flew from Pearl to Midway and attacked from there. They didn't fare much better than the TBDs flying from the Hornet: five of the six were shot down, and the ball turret gunner in the survivor was killed.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:21 PM
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In a just world, if either aircraft were shown flying from a US carrier* everyone involved would be strung up and horsewhipped. Sadly, I can almost guarantee that the first will happen and the second will not.

*There was a flight of six TBFs from Torpedo Eight, but they flew from Pearl to Midway and attacked from there. They didn't fare much better than the TBDs flying from the Hornet: five of the six were shot down, and the ball turret gunner in the survivor was killed.
The TBD had a ball turret? That's news to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator

SFAIK, the rear gunner had a swivel-mounted .30, but no ball turret. Neither would I call the rear gunner's turret in the TBF a ball turret.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:25 PM
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Bad phrasing on Otto's part. He meant the TBFs had a ball turret, and that they weren't any more successful than the TBDs.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:47 PM
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Bad phrasing on Otto's part. He meant the TBFs had a ball turret, and that they weren't any more successful than the TBDs.
Huh! I guess the Avenger did have a ball turret, though it was very different from the ones used in the B-17 and B-24:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/13/37...79f9040437.jpg

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN...s5/pT109-1.jpg
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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Bad phrasing on Otto's part. He meant the TBFs had a ball turret, and that they weren't any more successful than the TBDs.
I should have specified that "five of six" referred to the TBFs from Midway rather than the TBDs from Hornet.

Anyway, Torpedo Eight deployed 21 aircraft and 48 pilots/aircrew. Losses: 20 aircraft, 45 pilots/aircrew. Hits: none which is by no means a commentary on their dedication and bravery, since they were attacking with woefully obsolete aircraft (TBD), unfamiliar aircraft (TBF) and early-war torpedoes that could charitably be called wretched. Not to mention no fighter cover. The situation was considered so grave that the US was throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the Japanese including a night torpedo attack by PBYs(!!!) against what was thought to be the main body but turned out to be the invasion convoy (fortunately).
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:16 PM
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Right; I get it now. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:22 PM
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From the thread title, I thought the movie was actually called Midway 2019.
I thought it was a drama about Midway Airport in Chicago.
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:12 PM
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never mind

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Old 06-29-2019, 08:52 PM
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The PBY attack the night before the main battle was the only torpedo hit scored by any American aircraft or submarine in the entire battle.

The Hornet's troubles weren't just with Torpedo 8 and their detached TBF Avenger's. They lost nearly half of the rest of their aircraft during the initial attack on the Japanese without ever sighting the enemy. The US didn't coordinate their strikes in any fashion and the Hornet's dive bombers and fighters missed the Japanese fleet entirely that morning. The losses were aircraft running out of gas because they couldn't find their way back to the ship.

As for the 1976 version of Midway, I notice all the clips that they reused from Tora Tora Tora and those same half-dozen or so clips that are actual color footage from the Pacific War and used in Black Sheep Squadron, too. But in 1976, unless you were going to build your own air force (Tora Tora Tora had some 30 period aircraft and Battle of Britain a few years earlier used over 100) you went with stock footage. I can forgive that because the story and acting was pretty damn good.

So yes, if you are using CGI to recreate an historical battle, I expect the aircraft to be accurate. I expect the squadron formations to be depicted accurately. I expect markings to be accurate. I would like the flight physics to be accurate. This trailer looks like a cartoon.

When I eat at a restaurant I pay attention to the sides, I can tell a lot about a Mexican food place, for example, by how well they do rice and beans. Movies are the same way, if the little details are not right, then it is unlikely the movie itself will be because there was no attention to getting it right.

Maybe the trailer is giving me the wrong impression, but I am afraid what Emmerich made is Independence Day 3 with the Japanese carriers playing the roll of the alien motherships.
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:33 PM
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txtumbleweed, correct in both history and commentary, although one torpedo from Nautilus probably hit the Kaga but did not explode (as noted above, before mid-1943 or so US torpedo performance was a ghastly joke). According to Walter Lord in Incredible Victory, the torpedo broke in half with the warhead sinking and the after section bobbing to the surface; some of the Japanese may have tried to use it as a flotation device.

Torpedo Eight is rightly lionized for their sacrifice, but it should be remembered that the other squadrons were prit' near wiped out as well: Torpedo Three (Yorktown) lost 11 of 13 and Torpedo Six (Enterprise) 10 of 14. All three squadron commanders were killed. Oddly, the number seven plane in each squadron 3-T-7, 6-T-7 and 8-T-7 either was not launched or survived.

As for the movie, I finally watched the trailer and I agree with the OP. In addition to the deficiencies already noted, in what appears to be the initial SBD attack the US planes are shown coming in on the beam; but doctrine was to dive on the centerline to maximize the chances of a hit, and everything I've read indicates this is the way it was done.
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Old 06-29-2019, 10:15 PM
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So yes, if you are using CGI to recreate an historical battle, I expect the aircraft to be accurate. I expect the squadron formations to be depicted accurately. I expect markings to be accurate. I would like the flight physics to be accurate. This trailer looks like a cartoon.

When I eat at a restaurant I pay attention to the sides, I can tell a lot about a Mexican food place, for example, by how well they do rice and beans. Movies are the same way, if the little details are not right, then it is unlikely the movie itself will be because there was no attention to getting it right.
Feature films are works of fiction. I don't hold them to the same standard I hold documentaries to. Just like I wouldn't compare the accuracy of a novel to a history book.

I judge feature films by how well they work as stories and/or entertainment. I can accept inaccurate details in things like history or science or law as long as they're not so blatant they overwhelm my suspension of disbelief.

Last edited by Chronos; 06-30-2019 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Fixed quote attribution
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:00 PM
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Ooof. that trailer did not leave me with a good feeling.
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:10 AM
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Ooof. that trailer did not leave me with a good feeling.
So you're ambivalent? Divided? Moderate? Equivocal? Uncertain? Irresolute? Dubious? Unsettled? Wavering? Iffy?
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:37 AM
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Feature films are works of fiction. I don't hold them to the same standard I hold documentaries to. Just like I wouldn't compare the accuracy of a novel to a history book.

I judge feature films by how well they work as stories and/or entertainment. I can accept inaccurate details in things like history or science or law as long as they're not so blatant they overwhelm my suspension of disbelief.
Ignorance rationalized!
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Old 06-30-2019, 03:27 PM
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Little Nemo, I'm not sure how you managed to mangle the quote tags that way, but in post 33, you had a quote attributed to terentii and linking to one of his posts, but the quoted text was actually by txtumbleweed. I think I fixed it, but I'm honestly curious about how that happened.
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:50 PM
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My father was once chatting with a friend of his, with a John Wayne movie playing on TV in the background. Dad's friend glanced over at the TV and mentioned, "That style of saddle was never used, until after [someone I never heard of before or since] used it to win the national rodeo championship in 1926."

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In Australia, they made a TV series about the UK-Australia air races of the 1930s.

Someone wrote in to complain that in the scene where the old farmer is leaning against his gatepost, the bolts on the gates had a hex-head style not introduced to Australia until after WW2.

I mean, in some way you have to admire it.................................
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:05 PM
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In Australia, they made a TV series about the UK-Australia air races of the 1930s.

Someone wrote in to complain that in the scene where the old farmer is leaning against his gatepost, the bolts on the gates had a hex-head style not introduced to Australia until after WW2.

I mean, in some way you have to admire it.................................
One of the guys with whom I used to do Living History once complained that Little House on the Prairie was full of things that "looked old-timey" but weren't really. He specifically mentioned that the technology for swinging saloon doors (double hinges, I assume) wasn't invented until the 1880s or '90s.
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:36 PM
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I remember an episode of That 70s Show where Eric had a Millennium Falcon that was actually a figure case from 1997 or 1998. (It was plenty obvious.)
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Old 06-30-2019, 10:16 PM
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Feature films are works of fiction. I don't hold them to the same standard I hold documentaries to. Just like I wouldn't compare the accuracy of a novel to a history book.

I judge feature films by how well they work as stories and/or entertainment. I can accept inaccurate details in things like history or science or law as long as they're not so blatant they overwhelm my suspension of disbelief.
I get that. I am not watching Wackiest Ship in the Army, or Kelly's Heroes, or In Harm's Way expecting them to get the history correct. But they don't purport to be history, they are movies where the war is just the background and the movies tell about the lives caught up in them.

But this trailer landed a full 16" broadside right into my suspension of disbelief. Heck, I shouldn't have to be suspending my disbelief for what is supposed to be a true story.

OttoDaFe: I should have shown the Nautilis some love as it actually played a pretty important role in the battle. The torpedo misfire would be a great scene to have in the movie. You've got the terror of war, anyone in the water who could see the torpedo knew they were about to die, then the relief of survival and the absurdity of using the instrument of your death for rescue.
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Old 06-30-2019, 10:44 PM
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[Moderating]
Little Nemo, I'm not sure how you managed to mangle the quote tags that way, but in post 33, you had a quote attributed to terentii and linking to one of his posts, but the quoted text was actually by txtumbleweed. I think I fixed it, but I'm honestly curious about how that happened.
I hadn't noticed it and I don't know how it happened. (I have noticed that the quote function has been acting wonky for me since I "upgraded" to Windows 10 last week.) I assure you it was not intentional. My apologies to both posters and any readers for any confusion it caused.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 06-30-2019 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:35 AM
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So you're ambivalent? Divided? Moderate? Equivocal? Uncertain? Irresolute? Dubious? Unsettled? Wavering? Iffy?
Exactly.
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:55 AM
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I can see no reason other than driving up the CGI budget why the movie has B-25's from Doolittle's raid in it. Just how scattershot is the script that they make an appearance at all.
  #45  
Old 07-01-2019, 07:31 AM
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I was watching a documentary the other day in which a B-52 was shown bombing Italy in 1943.
Wow pathetic.
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Old 07-01-2019, 07:34 AM
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Yes, everyone knows B-52s were only used in the Pacific theatre

Brian
  #47  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:45 AM
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Yes, everyone knows B-52s were only used in the Pacific theatre

Brian
I remember that famous shot in an old War Department film showing Slim Pickens riding Little Boy down onto Hiroshima.
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:08 AM
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We have Zero's making strafing runs at an altitude of about 10ft as they swarm down the streets of Oahu.
Zero's did strafe Hickam. There's still bullet holes in the HQ building, according to the 2005 photo on Wikipedia.

Quote:
We have a flock of what might be Dauntless dive bombers swanning across the sky in the charlie-foxtrot formation. I am not sure flock is really a fair description, birds would fly an actual formation.
What's a Charlie Foxtrot formation? (Is that a slang/replacement for "cluster fuck"?)

As a USN fanboi, I am just thankful that my Yorktown class actually look like a Yorktown class. In the Heston film, all of the carriers have angled decks. The "Japanese" carriers are Essex's too, but with the stock footage shown in reverse to put the island superstructure on the port side.

But if you need a nitpick of this trailer from me: the ships are steaming way too close to each other in the trailer.
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Old 07-01-2019, 11:15 AM
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Granted I went into that movie with low-expectations and came out pleasantly surprised. It's no "Tora Tora Tora" or "A Bridge Too Far" but miles better than any of the recent WW2 movies like "Pearl Harbor" or "Fury". The worst part about it is the stock footage that most of the time doesn't match the filmed aircraft at all.
While not a WW2 movie on its face, Overlord is a fantastic movie.
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  #50  
Old 07-01-2019, 11:43 AM
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I can see no reason other than driving up the CGI budget why the movie has B-25's from Doolittle's raid in it. Just how scattershot is the script that they make an appearance at all.
The Doolittle raid was a catalyst for the Midway attack (up till that point there was considerable resistance in Japanese military circles to Yamamoto's Midway plan, but afterwards its harshest critics suddenly realized that they had been 110% behind it all along). So the Doolittle raid is at least as relevant to the background of the battle as the foot(?)age of Pearl Harbor.
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