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  #51  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kirkrapine View Post
"As such?" Quite a nonsequitur. Marijuana is the third-most (after alcohol and tobacco) popular drug in America. That does not make it constitutionally protected.
That's because Marijuana ownership is not the subject of the Heller decision, which only allows for ”prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons” such as strictly military arms like the M-16, while completely protecting the "usual type of weapon kept in the home." Since the AR-15 is the most common rifle you will find in an American home, and this was true when Heller was written, itis clearly a protected firearm.

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Anyway, I think handguns are far, far more popular than AR-15s, going by the numbers in private hands (and the numbers involved in firearms-related deaths). And if we're speaking of rifles alone, I think AR-15s are probably less popular than non-automatic rifles -- which are you likelier to encounter in a deer camp?

While official sales numbers are hard to come by because AR's are sold by a number of manufacturers, it's a generally accepted fact that the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. Google it.

Last edited by Miller; 09-17-2019 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Fixed italic tag
  #52  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:56 AM
not what you'd expect is offline
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Is "Francis" supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the "Hussein," but I'm having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one.
I thought it was a reference to Robert Francis Kennedy.

Can't you see the humor?
  #53  
Old 09-17-2019, 07:18 AM
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Is "Francis" supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the "Hussein," but I'm having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one.
The GOP are playing up the "he's a fake Mexican" angle in their current smear materials, pretending that he's only adopted the name "Beto" (and presumably the ability to speak Spanish) to pander to all those illegal Hispanics coming over here to vote, despite evidence that he's gone by "Beto" since childhood. The fact that they've ramped up the smear campaign at all does suggest that they do indeed "fear him" - or at least that his message might resonate, much as they did with AOC.
  #54  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:23 AM
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Please do say it more often. For decades, Democrats have worked against the perception that any regulation of guns was just another step on the slippery slope to confiscation. Every time a Republican made that claim, the Democrats would rush out and say, "No, No! We don't want to take anyone's guns! We just want a modicum of common-sense regulation!". And that's worked, as about 70% of Americans are in favor of 'common sense' gun regulations. They just differ on what those are.

In one night, Beto O'Rourke destroyed decades of perception control by anti-gunners. Now, any time a Democrat says they don't want to ban guns, someone will hold up a Beto T-shirt that says, "Hell yes I'm going to take your AR-15", or quote the many Democrats who came out in favor.

By the way, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. As such, it is absolutely constitutionally protected. Beto might as well have made up a T-shirt that said, "Hell yes I plan to violate my oath to defend the Constitution!"

This is a setback for gun control.
Or perhaps O'Rourke in doing this will give all the other spineless Democrats a chance to say, "hey, that guy over there? He's the gun-grabber, not me. When did I ever suggest taking away guns? You know, something that might actually do something about the problem. Nah, stick with me, and you can rest assured that I'll only call for some background checks here, or some red flag alerts there, and a bunch of other things that will only have a minimal effect." Of course, they won't come right out and say the part about these things not really helping much. They'll pretend that they are actually addressing the issue. Sorry for using your comment as a jumping off point on the Dems (), btw, but I'm serious.

As for your claim about the AR-15, it is clear, or at least I thought it was, and still is, that some guns can be regulated. That is, wanting to ban AR-15s is not necessarily a violation of the Constitution, and especially not just because they are the most popular. Is this incorrect?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-17-2019 at 09:27 AM.
  #55  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:39 AM
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I didn't say anyone "need[s] an automatic rifle", I said a semi-automatic one, such as an AR-15 is an excellent choice for home defense, but a poor one for concealed-carry duties. Were you aware of that prior to posting "... when you think about it, nobody really has any use for more than one gun."?
Please tell me you are talking about "duties" in the sense of the police and other trained law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he's John Fucking Wayne. Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. Who needs to go to Kroger's with a gun?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-17-2019 at 09:40 AM.
  #56  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:50 AM
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Do you think the AR-15 platform rifle that is typically owned by millions of Americans is automatic?
My bold and italics. I see this type of response all the time, and I wish to God gun-control advocates would take note. They need to be completely knowledgeable about the terms they use, so legitimate questions like yours are nullified. And on that note, we need a term for a gun like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-17-2019 at 09:51 AM.
  #57  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:04 AM
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Two things:

1. It seems entirely possible to me that Beto O'Rourke changed his mind on gun laws after what happened with the recent shooting in his home state. So, I find your (the OP) asking "was he lying then or lying now" to be pretty bad well-poisoning and not in good faith. That seems to be a terrible way to start an honest debate -- did you mean to post this in the Pit?

2. OP, I thought you had agreed that name-calling was counterproductive and were looking to raise the tone of discussions in the debate forums (GD and Elections). To that end, what's with calling him Francis? He doesn't go by that and, honestly, I had no idea who you were talking about until I read further into the thread. Is that some sort of right-wing smear tactic? I don't get it. Anyway, I think you would have been better served avoiding that, if your goal was to have an honest discussion, rather than a Pit rant. Of course, I'm not a moderator, so you do you, but you seemed receptive to raising the general tone in the past.
  #58  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:17 AM
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... did you mean to post this in the Pit?
No

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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
... what's with calling him Francis? He doesn't go by that and, honestly, I had no idea who you were talking about until I read further into the thread. ...
I liked the alliteration with flip-flop. How long did it take you to figure out who the OP was referring to? The first four letters are "Beto" and the first word in the title is "O'Rourke".

As always, your feedback is appreciated and most welcome.
  #59  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:18 AM
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Calling him Francis is how they like to troll these days. Kind of like calling Obama Barry or Muller Robbie.
  #60  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:24 AM
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No


I liked the alliteration with flip-flop. How long did it take you to figure out who the OP was referring to? The first four letters are "Beto" and the first word in the title is "O'Rourke".

As always, your feedback is appreciated and most welcome.
This will be my last post here, because I think the first post poisoned the well with the assumption that Beto was lying either before or now. However, to address your question, I couldn't figure out who Francis was and why he was mentioned in the title. I don't know the middle names of all the candidates (or any? I'm trying to think of a middle name of any of them). I find this kind of misnaming to be childish, and that's the other reason I won't be back here.
  #61  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:29 AM
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The reason for calling Beto 'Robert Francis' is to, well, mock him. It's like how people called Mitt Romney "Willard" during the 2012 election. Trying to take his more obscure name.
  #62  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:36 AM
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Please tell me you are talking about "duties" in the sense of the police and other trained law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he's John Fucking Wayne. ...
No, I am not.

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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
... Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. ...
Respectfully, that's a you problem.

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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
...Who needs to go to Kroger's with a gun?
I don't know about Kroger's, but I'm aware of a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers that needed one a few weeks ago.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-17-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #63  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:36 AM
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The reason for calling Beto 'Robert Francis' is to, well, mock him. It's like how people called Mitt Romney "Willard" during the 2012 election. Trying to take his more obscure name.
Is opening with mocking the best way to comport oneself in a debate? If your goal in the debate you are starting is to influence the opinions of others is that the most productive way to do so? If the goal is not to influence opinions, then what is the goal of this thread?
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  #64  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:38 AM
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I don't know about Kroger's, but I'm aware of a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers that needed one a few weeks ago.
So you think the solution to mass shootings is to create shoot out at the OK corrall type scenarios at Walmart? Just have everyone open fire and hope they are shooting at the actual bad guy with the gun and not one of the other good guys with guns? Why do so many people think life is an action movie and they are the hero?
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Last edited by Airbeck; 09-17-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #65  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:52 AM
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Is "Francis" supposed to be a girly-sounding name, or something? It was obvious why Obamaphobes leaned on the "Hussein," but I'm having a tougher time understanding the pejorative value of this one.

Francis is always going to sound funny for me now, since Deadpool came out.
  #66  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:58 AM
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Caused by the media, glorifying the shooters. Studies by sociologist have proven this. I have cited them four times in various threads.

There were plenty of guns before, it's not guns.
I want to see cites that "the media", after these mass shootings, praised these shooters as REAL AMERICAN HEROES.

It's not guns. It's the irresponsible fuckwads who can't be trusted to own guns, and the spineless enablers who hide behind 200-year-old ink on paper who would rather see schoolchildren be gunned down in the classroom than actually do something besides Thinking and Praying.

Freedom comes with responsibility. Can't handle the responsibility, can't have the freedom. Welcome to adulthood, cupcake.
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  #67  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:03 AM
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Francis is always going to sound funny for me now, since Deadpool came out.

Well you're in for another good chuckle if you watch Stripes.
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  #68  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:23 AM
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Please do say it more often.

...

This is a setback for gun control.
Seems to me, the biggest setback for gun control is electing politicians who have whored themselves out to the NRA and gun manufacturer lobby.

Another setback is the completely ineffective way that Democrats talk about gun control. Saying, "Nobody is coming for your guns", is a bullshit denial and no pro-gun voter buys it. They ought to come up with a concise and honest platform about what roles they believe guns ought to play in modern american society. Above all, they ought to make it clear that reduction in guns will be done by policy and laws with generational long term impact; not by government storm troopers knocking down doors in the middle of the night. Develop the talking points playbook and make sure every Democratic candidate knows the fucking chorus by heart. None of this all over the map namby-pamby bullshit that Republicans cherry pick and use against them.
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  #69  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:41 AM
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There is a bit of a tension between claiming that you knew all along that Democrats all secretly want to take your guns and claiming that Beto saying he wants confiscation is a game-changer on the politics of guns.

I cannot prove it, but I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most voters who intensely prioritize gun ownership already believe that most Democrats favor confiscation of semi-automatic rifles with large magazines, and also that Democratic politicians as an aggregate do not secretly favor such confiscation, and nothing Beto says changes that.
  #70  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:09 PM
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The GOP are playing up the "he's a fake Mexican" angle in their current smear materials, pretending that he's only adopted the name "Beto" (and presumably the ability to speak Spanish) to pander to all those illegal Hispanics coming over here to vote, despite evidence that he's gone by "Beto" since childhood. The fact that they've ramped up the smear campaign at all does suggest that they do indeed "fear him" - or at least that his message might resonate, much as they did with AOC.
Except that I havent seen a word of this. Maybe it's in Texas? Only smear machine I read and hear is vs Biden.
  #71  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:14 PM
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Or perhaps O'Rourke in doing this will give all the other spineless Democrats a chance to say, "hey, that guy over there? He's the gun-grabber, not me. When did I ever suggest taking away guns? You know, something that might actually do something about the problem. ...
As for your claim about the AR-15, it is clear, or at least I thought it was, and still is, that some guns can be regulated. That is, wanting to ban AR-15s is not necessarily a violation of the Constitution, and especially not just because they are the most popular. Is this incorrect?

Banning the AR15 wont do anything about "the problem. " If it's violent crime you are talking about as "the problem" AR15s (or any rifle) are used extremely rarely in crime/murders. If it's mass shootings- not only are there plenty of other weapons that would do just as well, but sociologists have shown it's the media as the media glorifies the shooters. It's not guns.

Indeed "some guns" can. But Heller seemed to make it clear that guns in common use can't be. Fully auto weapons, sawed off shotguns and other guns which have been banned for a while can continue to be banned under Heller.
  #72  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:17 PM
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Please tell me you are talking about "duties" in the sense of the police and other trained law enforcement officers, and not every concealed-carry lunkhead out there who thinks he's John Fucking Wayne. Private citizens with concealed-carry permits are scary. Who needs to go to Kroger's with a gun?
There has been almost no crimes committed by citizens with CCW permits. You know the permits that require the kind of background checks , training and etc that the Gun grabbers have been wanted for all gun owners? CCW holders are about the safest gun owners you could have.

People get robbed on the way to the store, women get raped coming out of stores and etc all the time.
  #73  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:20 PM
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Banning the AR15 wont do anything about "the problem. " If it's violent crime you are talking about as "the problem" AR15s (or any rifle) are used extremely rarely in crime/murders. If it's mass shootings- not only are there plenty of other weapons that would do just as well, but sociologists have shown it's the media as the media glorifies the shooters. It's not guns.
OFFS, give this one trick pony a rest, will ya.
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  #74  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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.... And on that note, we need a term for a gun like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant.
It's not a great term but "assault weapon" is what you want.
  #75  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:31 PM
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My bold and italics. I see this type of response all the time, and I wish to God gun-control advocates would take note. They need to be completely knowledgeable about the terms they use, so legitimate questions like yours are nullified. And on that note, we need a term for a gun like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant.
Ignorance is awesome! I mean, if you or kirkrapine want to make sweeping and erroneous, ignorant, and foolish assertions that's your call. I could tell you what the generally accepted nomenclature is for that type of firearm, what the characteristics are that determine that nomenclature, but I'm not sure you actually want to know. The article you linked quotes a former special agent of BATFE calling it a weapon of mass destruction which is about on par with the rhetorical accuracy being displayed here.
  #76  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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I want to see cites that "the media", after these mass shootings, praised these shooters as REAL AMERICAN HEROES.

It's not guns. It's the irresponsible fuckwads who can't be trusted to own guns, and the spineless enablers who hide behind 200-year-old ink on paper who would rather see schoolchildren be gunned down in the classroom than actually do something besides Thinking and Praying.

Freedom comes with responsibility. Can't handle the responsibility, can't have the freedom. Welcome to adulthood, cupcake.


https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...research-shows

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...rJRTObuojybVyc
The second dose came as I held my breath, hoping and praying the media wouldn’t amplify the violence.

But they did.

They did exactly what was needed to influence the next perpetrator to lock and load.
1. They named the shooter.
2. They described his characteristics.
3. They detailed the crime.
4. They numbered the victims.
5. They ranked him against other “successful” attackers.

School shootings are a contagion. And the media are consistent accomplices in most every one of them.

There’s really no useful debate on the point. The consensus of social scientists since David Phillips’ groundbreaking work in 1974 is that highly publicized stories of deviant and dangerous behavior influences copycat incidents.


https://www.elon.edu/u/academics/com...HzwQqHI2r9fjYM
This study suggests that there is a pattern
between the spread of mass shooting news on social media platforms and the increase in these crimes. Over
time, as social media has increased in usage, so has the coverage of news concerning mass shootings. This
also further reflects shooters’ desire for fame and their tendency to copy a crime.
Evidence from this study reveals a large increase in the number of mass shootings after 2011’s social
media milestones, and one can conclude that social media most likely has some effect on these crimes,
although the degree of this relationship is beyond the scope of this study.


http://www.center4research.org/copy-...M3lsW1yXPMrEQ8
Shooters get enormous attention: their name, photo, motivations, and story are often shared for days following the event. The American Psychological Association points out that this “fame” is something that most mass shooters desire.[2] This sometime inspires a copycat shooting, where the potential shooter typically tries to kill more people than their predecessor.

The number of mass shootings in the U.S. has increased exponentially since the early 2000s


Its' that "200 year old ink" that allows the media to get away with causing these shootings and allows you to post here.

Last edited by DrDeth; 09-17-2019 at 12:36 PM.
  #77  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:33 PM
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OFFS, give this one trick pony a rest, will ya.


I know, science and facts often get in the way of emotions.

Too bad.
  #78  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:34 PM
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I thought it was them video games that was to blame.
  #79  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:37 PM
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I thought it was them video games that was to blame.
Many ignorant people would rather listen to trump than actual scientists and experts.
  #80  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:37 PM
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Ignorance is awesome! I mean, if you or kirkrapine want to make sweeping and erroneous, ignorant, and foolish assertions that's your call. I could tell you what the generally accepted nomenclature is for that type of firearm, what the characteristics are that determine that nomenclature, but I'm not sure you actually want to know. The article you linked quotes a former special agent of BATFE calling it a weapon of mass destruction which is about on par with the rhetorical accuracy being displayed here.

What would you call that weapon then? Just as a broad term?
  #81  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:50 PM
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My bold and italics. I see this type of response all the time, and I wish to God gun-control advocates would take note. They need to be completely knowledgeable about the terms they use, so legitimate questions like yours are nullified. And on that note, we need a term for a gun like the Dayton killer used, that allows one to kill 9 people and injure dozens more in 30 seconds. A term that is so suggestive of this type of firepower, that terms like automatic or semi-automatic, or whatever, become completely irrelevant.
First of, let me state that I am a firearm owner and a 2A supporter, *AND* I own at least one AR-pattern rifle (that has not been used against any living thing whatsoever, and I hope I never have to), my reasons *for* owning it are not relevant to this thread.

That said, the AR "Pistol" in the linked article above, I can understand why people would want to ban it, I can say as an AR owner, that *I* do not see any functional reason to own one, other than "it's a cool range toy", it doesn't really have any true "sporting purpose", and there are far better defensive firearm choices, (ironically, one of which is the AR *RIFLE*)

The AR "Pistol" only seems to exist because it can be built that way, i see no difference between a AR-P and a sawed off pistol grip shotgun, legally, the ARP should be classified as either a "Destructive Device", "Short Barrel Rifle" or "AOW" (Any Other Weapon", and i'd have no problem with the ARP being moved to the Class 3 list of firearms, along with fully automatic rifles, sawed off shotguns, destructive devices, which require being fingerprinted, federal background checks, and a $200 tax stamp

there's no reason an AR platform rifle needs to be concealable, it serves no sporting purpose, and there are better defensive weapons.

in the spirit of compromise, i say move the ARP to Class 3, and stop going after the AR rifles, which are rarely used in crimes and actually have a legitimate defensive/sporting use.
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  #82  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...research-shows

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...rJRTObuojybVyc
The second dose came as I held my breath, hoping and praying the media wouldn’t amplify the violence.

But they did.

They did exactly what was needed to influence the next perpetrator to lock and load.
1. They named the shooter.
2. They described his characteristics.
3. They detailed the crime.
4. They numbered the victims.
5. They ranked him against other “successful” attackers.

School shootings are a contagion. And the media are consistent accomplices in most every one of them.

There’s really no useful debate on the point. The consensus of social scientists since David Phillips’ groundbreaking work in 1974 is that highly publicized stories of deviant and dangerous behavior influences copycat incidents.


https://www.elon.edu/u/academics/com...HzwQqHI2r9fjYM
This study suggests that there is a pattern
between the spread of mass shooting news on social media platforms and the increase in these crimes. Over
time, as social media has increased in usage, so has the coverage of news concerning mass shootings. This
also further reflects shooters’ desire for fame and their tendency to copy a crime.
Evidence from this study reveals a large increase in the number of mass shootings after 2011’s social
media milestones, and one can conclude that social media most likely has some effect on these crimes,
although the degree of this relationship is beyond the scope of this study.


http://www.center4research.org/copy-...M3lsW1yXPMrEQ8
Shooters get enormous attention: their name, photo, motivations, and story are often shared for days following the event. The American Psychological Association points out that this “fame” is something that most mass shooters desire.[2] This sometime inspires a copycat shooting, where the potential shooter typically tries to kill more people than their predecessor.

The number of mass shootings in the U.S. has increased exponentially since the early 2000s


Its' that "200 year old ink" that allows the media to get away with causing these shootings and allows you to post here.
And here's another club in the Reactionary Gun-Fetishist's Bag: When all else fails, Blame the Media for the ills of the country.

None of the above constitutes "glorifying" the shooters in any sane person's lexicon, BTW.

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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post


I know, science and facts often get in the way of emotions.

Too bad.
Let us know when you come up with science and facts.
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Last edited by CaptMurdock; 09-17-2019 at 01:52 PM.
  #83  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:53 PM
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What would you call that weapon then? Just as a broad term?
"Assault weapon" is a poor term, but it has been used in several laws. So, it works.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:54 PM
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.



Let us know when you come up with science and facts.
I just did.

And to reiterate:

There’s really no useful debate on the point. The consensus of social scientists since David Phillips’ groundbreaking work in 1974 is that highly publicized stories of deviant and dangerous behavior influences copycat incidents.


I suppose you also ignore scientists global warming, despite their consensus?

And NPR? Reactionary?

Last edited by DrDeth; 09-17-2019 at 01:55 PM.
  #85  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:56 PM
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What would you call that weapon then? Just as a broad term?
It's an AR Pistol. We can even have them in CA, but here they would be required to be single shot only.

Mactech gave solid explanation of why and what it is. I personally find them pretty dumb, but they rose in popularity due to other stupid rules. I'd rather have an SBR.
  #86  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:58 PM
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I just did.
No, you didn't.
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And NPR? Reactionary?
NPR, no. You, possibly. And NPR, again, never claimed the media was "glorifying" the shooters.
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  #87  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:12 PM
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I know, science and facts often get in the way of emotions.

Too bad.
It was "science and fact" that violent video games cause violence IRL. That has been largely discredited. Give it a bit of time and you'll find your favored hypothesis will be discredited as well. (There is a disclaimer in what you quoted that says the extent to which media contributes was not included in the scope of the study.)

It's not that I entirely disagree with you that media has no role to play in these events. Clearly copycat behavior among individuals inclined to commit these types of acts is a thing. However, the extent to which it motivates and amplifies this effect has not been effectively studied, much less concluded.

Lack of sufficient and conclusive evidence, however, does not appear to deter you from drawing your conclusion. So consider the possibility you're in no position to lecture anyone about "science and facts".

There is plenty wrong with the 24/7 news cycle. The sensationalism of news "BREAKING" every minute of the day is hard to take seriously anymore and I wish it would stop. The fact that news stations feel the need to fill hours and days with repeated coverage ad-nauseam is frankly annoying as fuck and serves no-one but the advertisers and the media companies. That said, mass shootings are a problem in society and should not be downplayed because they are inconvenient PR to otherwise upstanding gun rights supporters.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 09-17-2019 at 02:14 PM.
  #88  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:19 PM
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It's an AR Pistol. We can even have them in CA, but here they would be required to be single shot only.

Mactech gave solid explanation of why and what it is. I personally find them pretty dumb, but they rose in popularity due to other stupid rules. I'd rather have an SBR.
Yeah, the ARP makes no sense to me either, and I like the AR platform....

Hmm, lets take a perfectly functional AR and....

Put a shorter upper receiver/barrel assembly on it (make it even Louder and less accurate, and produce a bigger muzzle flash)

take off the butt stock and put on a "wrist brace" (that can be used almost like a butt stock) (lets remove functionality and accuracy, and look for a way to illegally skirt the rules against Short Barreled Rifles, after all, an AR with normal buttstock and "pistol" upper is legally a Clas 3 Short Barreled Rifle)

Add on a 100 round drum, further shifting the weight farther forward (necessitating the "wrist brace"), and requiring the need to use the front grip on the gun (like with a rifle)

And now we can "conceal" it......under a trenchcoat, which *certainly* won't look suspicious...

I have no problems with 100 round drums, and i'd love to own one myself, lots of fun at the range, but unless you're fighting off the inevitable Zombie Uprising (which *Will* eventually happen ) or engaging in a long target shooting/competition setting, i can see no real *functional* use for one (once again, cool range toy)

ARP's make no logical sense (and this is from an AR owner.)
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  #89  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:30 PM
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... take off the butt stock and put on a "wrist brace" (that can be used almost like a butt stock) (lets remove functionality and accuracy, and look for a way to illegally skirt the rules against Short Barreled Rifles...
I don't have issues with most of what you said, but a wrist brace on an AR pistol is a way to legally "skirt the rules" (if that's how you want to characterize it) against SBRs, not "illegally".
  #90  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:36 PM
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Gun confiscation will never happen, of course. The NRA is too well funded by Russian resources and protected by the right wing cowards who are getting a nice paycheck from them.
  #91  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:37 PM
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I don't have issues with most of what you said, but a wrist brace on an AR pistol is a way to legally "skirt the rules" (if that's how you want to characterize it) against SBRs, not "illegally".
Goodpoint, i mistyped, i meant legally, not sure why i typed illegally

you're correct on this one
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  #92  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:41 PM
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It's an AR Pistol. We can even have them in CA, but here they would be required to be single shot only.

Mactech gave solid explanation of why and what it is. I personally find them pretty dumb, but they rose in popularity due to other stupid rules. I'd rather have an SBR.
I disagree with Mactech's assessment of the utility of the AR-pistol. SBRs are extremely useful. The standard military small arm in the US Army is the M4 carbine, which has a 14.5 inch barrel, and that makes it an SBR. They seem to think a short weapon is useful.

I'd love a 10.5-12 ish inch SBR with a can: light, low noise, far more accurate than a handgun, easy to move in a confined space like a vehicle or dwelling, and no meaningful loss of effectiveness at typical defense ranges (<50m).

With the right brace, what's the meaningful difference between an AR pistol and an SBR?

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 09-17-2019 at 02:41 PM.
  #93  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:48 PM
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NPR, no. You, possibly. And NPR, again, never claimed the media was "glorifying" the shooters.
There are several people saying that the name and information about the shooter should be with held to not encourage others.
I think people who go out and murder a building full of people are crazy. Perhaps before scary looking semi-auto rifles, they were arsonists.
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  #94  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:49 PM
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I don't blame O'Rourke for changing his mind or at least changing what he says. Deaths of innocent children at the hands of madmen and perhaps a few madwomen is something that is going to stir a lot of emotions. It's not problematic imo for people to debate and reconsider ideas that may save lives. Maybe it's impossible to do anything to prevent crime and terrorism but it doesn't hurt to try. Do I think confiscating rifles is the way to go? Not really. But I think it's messed up that my kids have to waste some of their time in school on active shooter drills.
  #95  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:03 PM
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With the right brace, what's the meaningful difference between an AR pistol and an SBR?
The shoulder stock. A pistol brace could work, but I'd think that would be questionable legally by a creative DA.
  #96  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:03 PM
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-problematic/

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In short order, a bit of political conventional wisdom formed: O’Rourke had damaged his own chances of being elected president by staking out a position so distant from the center. What’s more, he had probably harmed the eventual Democratic nominee for president in 2020 (at this point, probably not O’Rourke) by giving President Trump and his allies the ability to claim that Democrats intend to take guns away from the public.[...]

There’s majority support in both polls for legislation that would ban the sale of assault weapons. In our poll, 56 percent of Americans back that idea, about the same as in the NPR poll. That includes at least a third of Republicans and 4 in 10 gun owners or people who live in a household with a gun.[...]

Both The Post-ABC poll and the one from NPR asked specifically about a proposal like O’Rourke’s. In both polls, views were split. Our poll had a slim majority supporting a mandatory buyback; NPR’s was evenly divided.

Again, though, note that there’s more support from Republicans and gun owners than you might expect. In The Post’s poll, 31 percent of Republicans and 37 percent of people who live in households that have guns support a buyback program. In the NPR survey, 20 percent of Trump voters backed O’Rourke’s proposal. That’s about the same figure as the percentage of Democrats who oppose the idea.[...]

This is much less toxic than proposing to ban private health insurance the way Warren and Sanders do.
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:05 PM
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Bump stocks, telescoping stocks, thumbhole stocks, brace "stocks" - I don't think the liberals hate guns nearly as much as they appear to hate the various permutations of stocks that have been banned over the years.
  #98  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:13 PM
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Yeah, they're paranoid about losing their guns. We're paranoid about people losing their lives.
Yeah good one liner, you're here all week right?

But seriously, my point is not that gun control people can get sanctimonious like you just did. Everyone knows that. My point is that it's ridiculous when they claim it's just a paranoid fantasy that they want to confiscate (at least some, not necessarily all) guns. Because just preventing new sale is a half measure. Or less. I believe a new sale ban on semi auto rifles* would have such a small effect on mass shooting it would, like the historical debate about the 1990's law, be a matter of torturing statistics till they confessed it had any effect (though could have a small effect, I don't know that it wouldn't). Actually, ceteris paribus for all the other social sickness which cause these things, I think you'd not only have to ban semi-auto rifles but also pistols, or at least enforce small magazine limits, and on a 'mandatory buy back' (ie confiscation) basis. Since pistols wouldn't kill a lot fewer people in most of those situations, assuming big magazines, and especially if the attacker has more than one.

So of course you'd have to confiscate a lot of guns to really cut down that problem from 'hardware' side. And so it's ridiculous to claim that isn't the aim, but Beto was making that standard claim till pretty recently and many Democrats still do.

That's really my only point. I personally don't think this problem is very solvable** and I don't get that worked up about it either way, which I know is true of some other people who participate in these discussions but most are pretty worked up one way or the other, and are always looking to read any point made that doesn't follow their catechism fairly exactly as being 'the other'.

*assuming the political bumper stick term 'assault weapon' was broadly defined as the actually relevant weapons, box magazine semi-auto rifles, not laws full of silly loopholes where a weapon with wooden furniture and no flash hider (eg. Ruger Mini 14 or such) was not an 'assault weapon' but an AR15 or such was, even though basically the same thing functionally.
**I really do think social contagion is a big part of it now and will probably die down at some point, like years ago when there were also plenty of guns including 'assault weapons' but not this problem to same degree. It's not some 'excuse', I just think that's probably a good deal of what it is. Whereas confiscating lots of guns nationally is not gonna happen, and half-half-measures like banning new sale of just a narrow range of guns, though no skin off my own nose, and which very well might not happen either, is not going to do much practically.

Last edited by Corry El; 09-17-2019 at 04:17 PM.
  #99  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:17 PM
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I am going to go contrarian and suggest flip-flops are actually good. A politician should flip-flop if their constituency changes. I have no use for a politician who governs according to their principles. Their principles should be whatever I (the voter) dictate to them.

My choice would have been for Beto to run for Senate instead of cluttering the presidential field with a stupid and quixotic bid, so I am content to see him flounder in shame and failure.
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:43 PM
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... so I am content to see him flounder in shame and failure.
There, see, we can agree on some things
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