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Old 09-20-2019, 09:11 AM
KidCharlemagne is offline
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Is there an online board/forum where reasonable, intelligent debate occurs between Reps and Dems?


I'm looking for a place to futiley attempt to reason with Trump supporters - a place where a reasonable point won't be met with "MAGA!". Is there a forum where such discourse between Pubs and Dems takes place? Civility is a plus.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:58 AM
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I think the closest you're likely to come is probably r/theMotte. You're only going to get the very smartest and least trolly republicans.

That said, I stopped hanging out there a while back because, quite frankly, even the very smartest and least trolly republicans are absolutely insufferable to be around, and even those with the best intentions and the best mental hygiene are still carrying years of bad intellectual baggage along with them. And of course, it being on reddit, the biases of the community become very obvious very quickly - and let's just say that if you get into a conversation about whether gamergate was a hate campaign or a group of people worried about ethics in games journalism, the person taking the latter position is going to be sitting at +50 and the person who's actually right will not be.

Also most right-wingers there are not Trump supporters, and those who are are usually supporters in the "I think he sucks but we do need an authoritarian" NRx bend, which gets really weird really fast.

This is kind of one of the fundamental problems with trying to engage with modern republicans. I spent a long time looking for good reasons to vote for Trump. There really aren't any. Most Trump supporters will be grossly misinformed about damn near anything, conspiracy theorists, hardline partisans, or favor policies and outcomes that most sane people would consider horrendous (y'know, those lovely folks who are big fans of Trump throwing kids in concentration camps). Really, it's a bit like asking where the reasonable, intelligent debate occurs between biologists and young earth creationists - it's out there, but even the best case is pretty painful.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:19 AM
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Honestly - and not to be snarky - the Straight Dope is already one of the most levelheaded places that there is out there. There is strict but generally fair moderating here, most posters here are pretty smart+educated regardless of their political leaning, etc. Sure, there's name-calling and ad hominem-ing and logical fallacies, but by and large it is already as civil as you can expect D's and R's to possibly get in today's toxic era.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
I'm looking for a place to futiley attempt to reason with Trump supporters - a place where a reasonable point won't be met with "MAGA!". Is there a forum where such discourse between Pubs and Dems takes place? Civility is a plus.
I'm a Republican but not a Trump supporter...

~Max
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:44 AM
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I'm a Republican but not a Trump supporter...

~Max
I've seen you mention this a couple times and I'm kind of at a loss about it; if I started a thread on the subject, would you respond to it? (So as not to hijack this one.)
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
I'm looking for a place to futiley attempt to reason with Trump supporters - a place where a reasonable point won't be met with "MAGA!". Is there a forum where such discourse between Pubs and Dems takes place? Civility is a plus.
They didn't get to where they are by being the sort of people you can reason with. If they're still supporting Trump after babies in cages and everything else, then they're impervious to whatever people like us could bring to the table.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:50 AM
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I've seen you mention this a couple times and I'm kind of at a loss about it; if I started a thread on the subject, would you respond to it? (So as not to hijack this one.)
Just PM me with a link if it's not in Great Debates as I rarely come over to other forums.

~Max
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:12 PM
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I'm a Republican but not a Trump supporter...

~Max
Have you ever said which candidate you do support?
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:00 PM
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Have you ever said which candidate you do support?
In all likeliness I will vote against Mr. Trump in the primaries and for the Democratic candidate in the general election. I expect neither of my votes to make any sort of difference. My representative is also up for re-election but he likely will not have a primary and I have no idea if the Democrats have fielded a candidate; even if they do, the race will probably be one-sided.

Neither my governor nor either of my Senators are up for reelection, so as far as national politics go in 2020, that's it for me.

~Max
  #10  
Old 09-20-2019, 10:22 PM
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Political Wire is definitely Democratic leaning but there are some intelligent Republicans there. You’re expected to bring your A game there, obvious trolls get called out immediately.
https://politicalwire.com/
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  #11  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:36 AM
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Honestly - and not to be snarky - the Straight Dope is already one of the most levelheaded places that there is out there. There is strict but generally fair moderating here, most posters here are pretty smart+educated regardless of their political leaning, etc. Sure, there's name-calling and ad hominem-ing and logical fallacies, but by and large it is already as civil as you can expect D's and R's to possibly get in today's toxic era.
Agreed, but are there even Trump supporters here? I've seen conservative Republicans who argue against what Dems may have done during various moments of the Trump admin, and I've seen people call-out what they see as hypocrisy on a Dem's part, but I don't know that I've seen a Trump supporter - at least an active poster Trump supporter. Of course I haven't been seeking them out so I've got no reason to believe they don't exist.
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:40 AM
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I think the closest you're likely to come is probably r/theMotte. You're only going to get the very smartest and least trolly republicans.

That said, I stopped hanging out there a while back because, quite frankly, even the very smartest and least trolly republicans are absolutely insufferable to be around, and even those with the best intentions and the best mental hygiene are still carrying years of bad intellectual baggage along with them. And of course, it being on reddit, the biases of the community become very obvious very quickly - and let's just say that if you get into a conversation about whether gamergate was a hate campaign or a group of people worried about ethics in games journalism, the person taking the latter position is going to be sitting at +50 and the person who's actually right will not be.

Also most right-wingers there are not Trump supporters, and those who are are usually supporters in the "I think he sucks but we do need an authoritarian" NRx bend, which gets really weird really fast.

This is kind of one of the fundamental problems with trying to engage with modern republicans. I spent a long time looking for good reasons to vote for Trump. There really aren't any. Most Trump supporters will be grossly misinformed about damn near anything, conspiracy theorists, hardline partisans, or favor policies and outcomes that most sane people would consider horrendous (y'know, those lovely folks who are big fans of Trump throwing kids in concentration camps). Really, it's a bit like asking where the reasonable, intelligent debate occurs between biologists and young earth creationists - it's out there, but even the best case is pretty painful.
Just took a look, and their mission statement is definitely noble. I really wish Reddit had a damn topic directory. How the fuck am I supposed to find that? I know there is an "is there a subreddit for that?" subreddit, but some of the design choices on Reddit absolutely boggle my mind.
  #13  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:44 AM
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Political Wire is definitely Democratic leaning but there are some intelligent Republicans there. You’re expected to bring your A game there, obvious trolls get called out immediately.
https://politicalwire.com/
What made you join a website that requires $5 a month to even see what it is? Not being snarky, I just find the concept incredibly unusual.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 09-21-2019 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:07 AM
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I think the closest you're likely to come is probably r/theMotte. You're only going to get the very smartest and least trolly republicans.

That said, I stopped hanging out there a while back because, quite frankly, even the very smartest and least trolly republicans are absolutely insufferable to be around, and even those with the best intentions and the best mental hygiene are still carrying years of bad intellectual baggage along with them. And of course, it being on reddit, the biases of the community become very obvious very quickly - and let's just say that if you get into a conversation about whether gamergate was a hate campaign or a group of people worried about ethics in games journalism, the person taking the latter position is going to be sitting at +50 and the person who's actually right will not be.

Also most right-wingers there are not Trump supporters, and those who are are usually supporters in the "I think he sucks but we do need an authoritarian" NRx bend, which gets really weird really fast.

This is kind of one of the fundamental problems with trying to engage with modern republicans. I spent a long time looking for good reasons to vote for Trump. There really aren't any. Most Trump supporters will be grossly misinformed about damn near anything, conspiracy theorists, hardline partisans, or favor policies and outcomes that most sane people would consider horrendous (y'know, those lovely folks who are big fans of Trump throwing kids in concentration camps). Really, it's a bit like asking where the reasonable, intelligent debate occurs between biologists and young earth creationists - it's out there, but even the best case is pretty painful.
Most Reasonable Republicans are now ex-Republicans. Count me in that group. I voted for both Bush's, Dole, and Romney. I've voted for Republican senators in my state, too. But no more.

I hung on to the party through the 2012 election, and then gave up after that. The Republican party used to have a place for a variety of viewpoints. But now, it's just a place full of kooks. Trump is the result of a party that's gone completely berzerk, and that's given up on governing. So, good luck finding a place for "reasonable" conversation with that group.
  #15  
Old 09-21-2019, 10:38 AM
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Agreed, but are there even Trump supporters here? I've seen conservative Republicans who argue against what Dems may have done during various moments of the Trump admin, and I've seen people call-out what they see as hypocrisy on a Dem's part, but I don't know that I've seen a Trump supporter - at least an active poster Trump supporter. Of course I haven't been seeking them out so I've got no reason to believe they don't exist.
I believe HurricaneDitka supports President Trump. He will not follow you into the pit, however.

~Max
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:36 PM
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I believe HurricaneDitka supports President Trump. He will not follow you into the pit, however.

~Max
Indeed - HurricaneDitka is an excellent example of a relatively intelligent, eloquent, rational Trump supporter.

Take from that what you will.
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:55 PM
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This board really isn't it though. We don't have many conservatives, and the ones we do have get insulted a lot. For the most part on this board discussions with conservatives end up with liberals talking about what we think conservatives believe.

Closest I've found are r/politicaldiscussion and r/ask_politics on reddit. r/neutralpolitics too
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2019, 01:01 PM
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This board really isn't it though. We don't have many conservatives, and the ones we do have get insulted a lot. For the most part on this board discussions with conservatives end up with liberals talking about what we think conservatives believe.

Closest I've found are r/politicaldiscussion and r/ask_politics on reddit. r/neutralpolitics too
Conservatives are free to post on this board anywhere outside the BBQ pit, so they should be free from insults.

This board has rules, and the moderation is fairly rigorous. I think the lack of conservatives has more to do with the difficulty that they have in defending current United States Republicans using logical, insult free arguments.

If you look at other boards or discussion sites, you'll see plenty of conservative thought - mostly calling others "Libtards" or saying climate change is a hoax because university professors are making lots of money. These things don't work here.
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:29 PM
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You won't find very many conservatives anywhere in the US. How many prominent conservative politicians can you name? Kasich is the only one I can think of.
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:46 PM
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You won't find very many conservatives anywhere in the US. How many prominent conservative politicians can you name? Kasich is the only one I can think of.
Sure you can. What about the staff of The Weekly Standard?
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:48 PM
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Honestly - and not to be snarky - the Straight Dope ...t is already as civil as you can expect D's and R's to possibly get in today's toxic era.
That's disheartening, because this place isn't particularly civil.


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I believe HurricaneDitka supports President Trump. He will not follow you into the pit, however.

~Max
Correct on both counts. Perhaps I'd add the caveat that I'm generally supportive of President Trump.


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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Conservatives are free to post on this board anywhere outside the BBQ pit, so they should be free from insults. ...
What should be and what is are often two very different things.
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:04 PM
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Indeed - HurricaneDitka is an excellent example of a relatively intelligent, eloquent, rational Trump supporter.

Take from that what you will.
I take it that you are being less than sincere and you should avoid backhanded compliments made for the purpose of being insulting in this forum.

[/moderating]
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:06 PM
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Bigger issue is that the real world also has few places in which civil discourse between those on each side takes place.

This place is the worst around for it ... yeah you see this coming... except for all the others.

Reality is that it tends to be some of (not all of) the more highly educated who want to have that civil intelligent discussion with effort made to understand why the other believes what they do. And that more highly educated group has a liberal and Democratic bias. There are fewer intellectual conservatives than in days past and fewer of them who are in the Trump camp even if they vote for him for the sake of their agenda. Overwhelmingly (but not completely) Trump supporters are of lower educational levels and with an anti-intellectual bent.

Liberals here benefit from having conservative voices speaking here. But that does not equal a free pass for a conservative to pass off crap as argument and whine that posters were mean when called on it.
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:10 PM
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Have you ever said which candidate you do support?
Republican Trump-hater, here. The last go-round, I would have been happy with Jon Huntsman or Romney. This coming election? I'm not going to bother. Where I live my vote has be rendered moot, so I'll find something useful to do that afternoon, like take the dogs for a Jeep ride or drink beer.

Although I always drink beer when taking a Jeep ride anyway.
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:07 PM
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I vote republican 99.6% of the time and if people from other viewpoints discuss an issue civilly I usually have no problem with that. Most democratic voters I know actually mean well which is ironic. Now, if it’s a strong single issue voter like abortion or gun rights I don’t always agree but I can respect their positions.

I do have a problem with dishonest and pandering politicians. Unfortunately, that may be a completely redundant statement. So, in practice I have to pick what I think is less harmful in the long term. And that is far from obvious in the present due to 2nd and 3rd order effects.
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:28 PM
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Just took a look, and their mission statement is definitely noble. I really wish Reddit had a damn topic directory. How the fuck am I supposed to find that? I know there is an "is there a subreddit for that?" subreddit, but some of the design choices on Reddit absolutely boggle my mind.
I don't follow /r/TheMotte, but I know it used to be the Slate Star Codex subreddit, and I read the Slate Star Codex blog. You get a lot of interesting political discussion over there, especially in the open threads which frequently go over a thousand posts. The blogger is rather left-wing, but of a somewhat libertarian flavour of left-wing, so the comment section has attracted quite a few right-wing posters who appreciate their views being tolerated. There is a variety of right-wing voices, from anarcho-capitalists to conservative catholics and I'm sure a few Trump supporters, as well as a variety of left-wing voices, and there is (usually) a real attempt made over there to debate rationally. It is much less of an echo chamber than the SDMB, so more interesting in this regard.

Negatives are that it's not a message board or a subreddit, but just a comment section, so finding debate threads can be difficult. As I've said, the open threads go over a thousand posts, so it can be difficult to find what has been discussed. I usually just search for words in the threads, but maybe there's a better way I don't know about. Rules are here, but there is also a rule that "culture war" issues are only to be discussed in some but not all of the open threads (I forget which ones, and it's not mentioned there).
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:42 PM
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What should be and what is are often two very different things.
And yet, in an interesting twist of irony, someone was warned moments ago for being insulting to you.

So.... It would seem that your rights are being well protected here, and you should feel free to speak your mind.
  #28  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:52 PM
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And yet, in an interesting twist of irony, someone was warned moments ago for being insulting to you.

So.... It would seem that your rights are being well protected here, and you should feel free to speak your mind.
You see that as the irony here? I see the ironic bit as you skipping over the insult right here in this very thread in the Elections forum, to declare that conservatives "should be free from insults".
  #29  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:57 PM
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Meh. Liberals aren’t free of insults either. Poor arguments habitually made are mocked no matter if the position is agreed with or disagreed with. There are some dumb arguments made in defense of positions I agree with. And all are moderated to keep some reasonable range of civility as the norm.

That equal opportunity mocking and moderation when it crosses the line is the best one can hope for I think.
  #30  
Old 09-21-2019, 10:42 PM
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What made you join a website that requires $5 a month to even see what it is? Not being snarky, I just find the concept incredibly unusual.
I’d check your browser settings. The website was always available free from my former work where I never logged in. They do have a few premium articles but 96% of the site is free.
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  #31  
Old 09-22-2019, 01:29 AM
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This board really isn't it though. We don't have many conservatives, and the ones we do have get insulted a lot. For the most part on this board discussions with conservatives end up with liberals talking about what we think conservatives believe.
Exactly. Which is why I wondered about your thread on asking about why non-college educated whites don't turn from Trump. That seemed a little like spitting in the wind or at least asking the wind. There are a lot of Trump supporters on the Yang sub, but they're given respect for the most part, so their answers are a lot more forthcoming there.

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Closest I've found are r/politicaldiscussion and r/ask_politics on reddit. r/neutralpolitics too
I like r/neutralpolitics because every fact requires a link and no anecdotal evidence is allowed. The downside is that a lot of politics is not that easily provable so the topic selection isn't that broad.

I like these 2 rules there and wish there were more places that had at least a variant of these rules. People saying, "everyone knows X" (supposed "common knowledge") is such a non-starter for any discussion.

Quote:
2) Source your facts. If you're claiming something to be true, you need to back it up by linking to a qualified source. There is no "common knowledge" exception, and anecdotal evidence is not allowed.

3) Be substantive. NeutralPolitics is a serious discussion-based subreddit. We do not allow bare expressions of opinion, low effort one-liner comments, jokes, memes, off topic replies, or pejorative name calling.
  #32  
Old 09-22-2019, 07:56 AM
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I’d check your browser settings. The website was always available free from my former work where I never logged in. They do have a few premium articles but 96% of the site is free.
Oh I see, you're referring to the comments section of the blog articles. I hadn't seen that, because I thought there was a message board, couldn't find one, and then assumed it was behind the paywall.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 09-22-2019 at 07:56 AM.
  #33  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:13 PM
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Nowadays in the Trump era, liberals and conservatives are like sodium and water. If you drop a chunk of sodium in water, it goes ka-pow. If you gently immerse it, it might ka-pow more gently. So the best you can hope for is a message board where the sodium goes in slowly.
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