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Old 09-24-2019, 07:31 PM
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NO pardons for Trump and his cronies


I'd like to jump ahead a little and talk about after the endgame. Regardless of how Trump's administration ends, impeachment or election, there is going to be talk of pardons ala Nixon.

No. Absolutely not.

Assuming that the president has America's best interests as his priority is what got us here. We can no longer coast along on that assumption.
Trump, his family, and everyone in his administration need to be prosecuted for any laws they broke. I'm not interested in comparing it to Soviet purges or similar. The republicans wanted to stir things up and they elected someone whose whole history was as a liar and a conman. I don't want that to ever happen again. We need to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, including Treason.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:43 PM
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If he and/or they are pardoned there will be riots. DC will burn. A lot of cities will burn.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:47 PM
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... We need to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, including Treason.
You know that "treason" has an actual definition, right? It's not just "orange man bad". You've got to be able to demonstrate the elements of the crime, and you can't do that, because President Trump's actions don't meet the elements of that crime.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:51 PM
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Well hey.

As long as it's not officially "Treason", let's cut the whole Trump family some slack, mkay?
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:56 PM
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Assuming that the president has America's best interests as his priority is what got us here. We can no longer coast along on that assumption
The problem is that Trump supporters COULD NOT care LESS about America's best interests. Like Trump, they only care about themselves.

But yes, don't throw the book at him, throw the whole library. Other crooks may think twice about running for office. That might save our democracy.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:59 PM
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You know that "treason" has an actual definition, right? It's not just "orange man bad". You've got to be able to demonstrate the elements of the crime, and you can't do that, because President Trump's actions don't meet the elements of that crime.
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason..."

"Adheres to their enemies" would fit a number of his actions.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:36 PM
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"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason..."

"Adheres to their enemies" would fit a number of his actions.
The Rosenburgs would agree.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:40 PM
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"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason..."



"Adheres to their enemies" would fit a number of his actions.
Sadly, treason doesn't apply. "Enemies" in this instance is narrowly defined as people we are at war with. Still plenty of books to throw at him, though.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:46 PM
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Sadly, treason doesn't apply. "Enemies" in this instance is narrowly defined as people we are at war with. Still plenty of books to throw at him, though.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...es/treason.htm
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:49 PM
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Sadly, treason doesn't apply. "Enemies" in this instance is narrowly defined as people we are at war with. Still plenty of books to throw at him, though.
"Narrowly defined" is for suckers. Ask Mitch about changing the rules. Trump and his administration are a cancer. Chemotherapy is advised.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:58 PM
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Your cite (an excellent one, thank you) states that "The requisite enemy designation typically requires a formal declaration of war."

"Typically requires" doesn't sound all that set in stone to me.
I think once this all shakes out, we are going to have evidence of Trump being under Russia's influence. His being an idiot doesn't excuse that.
There are a lot of politicians playing fast and loose with international money. This needs to stop.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:02 PM
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And we're going to need to look VERY closely at the investment in Moscow Mitch's neck of the woods by a Russian oligarch.

There are way, way too many Russia (Putin) connections with the Republican Party.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:15 PM
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Your cite (an excellent one, thank you) states that "The requisite enemy designation typically requires a formal declaration of war."

"Typically requires" doesn't sound all that set in stone to me.
I think once this all shakes out, we are going to have evidence of Trump being under Russia's influence. His being an idiot doesn't excuse that.
There are a lot of politicians playing fast and loose with international money. This needs to stop.
The Rosenbergs were convicted of treason in peacetime.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:19 PM
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Trump 2020: Iím not quite as guilty as George Bluth!
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:27 PM
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The Rosenbergs were convicted of treason in peacetime.
Perhaps I should have led with that , thank you.

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Old 09-24-2019, 09:55 PM
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The Rosenbergs were convicted of treason in peacetime.
No, they were not. The ignorance in this thread is getting spread on thick.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:59 PM
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No, they were not. The ignorance in this thread is getting spread on thick.
"The Rosenbergs were the first U.S. citizens to be convicted and executed for espionage during peacetime and their case remains controversial to this day."

OK.

But I take it you are OK with Trump being prosecuted for all of his crimes, just not treason?
Is treason kinda like "collusion" to you?
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:01 PM
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The Rosenbergs were convicted of "Conspiracy to Commit Espionage," for those of you keeping score at home.

Fun Research Project: Who can list all the persons/entities President Donald J. Trump has publicly accused of "treason," either in spoken remarks or via tweet? Start with the moment he took the Oath to faithfully uphold the Constitution and execute the laws of the USA, back in January 2017.

Last edited by mjmlabs; 09-24-2019 at 10:02 PM. Reason: lost a verb first time; found it between the sofa cushions
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:02 PM
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No, they were not. The ignorance in this thread is getting spread on thick.
If there is a hair, you're gonna split it, huh?

Yes, they were convicted and executed during the Korean war. But they were originally arrested for acts committed in the late 40's.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:03 PM
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Nvm, ninja'd.

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Old 09-24-2019, 10:05 PM
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If there is a hair, you're gonna split it, huh?



Yes, they were convicted and executed during the Korean war. But they were originally arrested for acts committed in the late 40's.
Convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage, not of treason.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:06 PM
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It is inevitable that whenever someone mentions treason, someone has to point out how it is defined in the Constitution. But some go by the colloquial definition of doing something to the severe detriment of the country. If extorting a foreign nation to make up dirt on your presumed opponent by withholding military aid already promised by Congress is not treason in the technical sense, it certainly is as commonly used.

What is abundantly clear is that Don The Con will undoubtedly pardon himself and his entire family as he is dragged kicking and screaming out the door. What isn't clear is whether he can indeed do so. Reasonable people disagree but I believe that self-pardoning wouldn't stand up in court and I do hope the prosecutors challenge it. Of course, he's going to be tried for state crimes anyway and hopefully they'll find an orange jump suit in his size.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:11 PM
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Surprisingly, this thread has focused on treason, perhaps a sign of better days to come.

But my poorly made point was that traditionally the US does not go after or try to prosecute previous administrations. I think this was one of the things that made this such a great country.

It is time to change that.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:16 PM
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"The Rosenbergs were the first U.S. citizens to be convicted and executed for espionage during peacetime and their case remains controversial to this day."

OK.

But I take it you are OK with Trump being prosecuted for all of his crimes, just not treason?
Is treason kinda like "collusion" to you?
"Treason" is the stupid, contra-factual claim you posted. I'm just correcting your ignorance. I'd want someone with a lot more knowledge than you've demonstrated to look at evidence and make a determination if there are any crimes to be prosecuted or not. If they do so,and can convince a jury, then kudos to them.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:18 PM
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The problem is that Trump supporters COULD NOT care LESS about America's best interests. Like Trump, they only care about themselves.
This says it all. I have had political disagreements about presidents in the past, and even understood some level of presidential favoritism, but I believe they cared about the country. In this case I have no confidence in Trump that he cares about this country in any way. His actions seem to be self serving and not influenced by the responsibility to uphold the constitution and lead the nation in a way is not self serving.

I have no confidence in our president. I don't believe he is acting in the best interest of our country.

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Old 09-24-2019, 10:19 PM
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It is inevitable that whenever someone mentions treason, someone has to point out how it is defined in the Constitution. But some go by the colloquial definition of doing something to the severe detriment of the country. ...
Do you think "We need to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, including Treason" is a reference to the colloquial definition or the legal one?
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:27 PM
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"Treason" is the stupid, contra-factual claim you posted. I'm just correcting your ignorance. I'd want someone with a lot more knowledge than you've demonstrated to look at evidence and make a determination if there are any crimes to be prosecuted or not. If they do so,and can convince a jury, then kudos to them.
Having a Trump supporter calling something I've said "stupid" is a rich one. Having my "ignorance" corrected by such is even better.

But I am glad to see that you support prosecuting Trump. Perhaps there is hope for this country.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:29 PM
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Having a Trump supporter calling something I've said "stupid" is a rich one. Having my "ignorance" corrected by such is even better. ...
You still don't understand that what you posted was wrong, do you?

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Old 09-24-2019, 10:37 PM
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... But I am glad to see that you support prosecuting Trump. ...
I don't. "If they do so,and can convince a jury, then kudos to them." was an expression of indifference, not support. Quite honestly, I'd prefer to see the tradition that "the US does not go after or try to prosecute previous administrations" remain intact, but it's a fairly mild preference, and the desire to see President Trump prosecuted currently exists only as a masturbatory fantasy in the minds of the far left, so at present I don't see much point in arguing about that desire.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:41 PM
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You still don't understand that what you posted was wrong, do you?
You still don't understand that Trump is a lying thief, do you?
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:41 PM
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"Narrowly defined" is for suckers. Ask Mitch about changing the rules. Trump and his administration are a cancer. Chemotherapy is advised.
I yield to nobody as a full blown trump hater, but we can't do this. The problems decent people rail about come from trumpists and Moscow Mitch ignoring the laws and conventions that have defined constitutional government. We need to throw trump ,his cabinet, and his nepotistic hell spawn into prison based on actual laws that they actually broke. Competent state and federal investigations will find plenty of those I'll bet.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:45 PM
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I don't. "If they do so,and can convince a jury, then kudos to them." was an expression of indifference, not support. Quite honestly, I'd prefer to see the tradition that "the US does not go after or try to prosecute previous administrations" remain intact, but it's a fairly mild preference, and the desire to see President Trump prosecuted currently exists only as a masturbatory fantasy in the minds of the far left, so at present I don't see much point in arguing about that desire.
I'm sorry I misunderstood. You have a "fairly mild preference" that Trump is allowed to break the law with no repercussions. Perhaps I was too hopeful.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:51 PM
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I'm sorry I misunderstood. You have a "fairly mild preference" that Trump is allowed to break the law with no repercussions. Perhaps I was too hopeful.
Yet "illegals" who break immigration law should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:56 PM
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Yet "illegals" who break immigration law should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
The immigrants in question are brown. Trump is orange. The difference is yuuuuge, believe me.
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:10 PM
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I yield to nobody as a full blown trump hater, but we can't do this. The problems decent people rail about come from trumpists and Moscow Mitch ignoring the laws and conventions that have defined constitutional government. We need to throw trump ,his cabinet, and his nepotistic hell spawn into prison based on actual laws that they actually broke. Competent state and federal investigations will find plenty of those I'll bet.
I agree. Mostly. Prison based on laws they broke.
But no half hearted measures. We need to go back as far as the statute of limitations allows. Him, his "business" and his family. Then we need to see what Mitch et al knew about Trump being a Russian patsy. Fuck them. They may have ruined this country forever.
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:14 PM
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They may have ruined this country forever.
And in other news, the sky is falling.
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:17 PM
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You good with things?
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:25 PM
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I'm sorry I misunderstood. You have a "fairly mild preference" that Trump is allowed to break the law with no repercussions. Perhaps I was too hopeful.
My preference is that politicos not use criminal law to settle political disputes. I don't think that's healthy for the country. There's a good reason it's been a long-standing tradition here.

If there's strong evidence that he did something seriously criminal, fine, prosecute him after he's out of office, IDGAF. But this "orange man bad, we must get him" stupid witch hunt that you're on about is idiotic. The police aren't supposed to just endlessly investigate people whose politics they don't like, rummaging around in their personal history, looking for something to charge them with. It's an ugly look for you to be calling for that sort of thing.

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Old 09-24-2019, 11:43 PM
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My preference is that politicos not use criminal law to settle political disputes. I don't think that's healthy for the country. There's a good reason it's been a long-standing tradition here.

If there's strong evidence that he did something seriously criminal, fine, prosecute him after he's out of office, IDGAF. But this "orange man bad, we must get him" stupid witch hunt that you're on about is idiotic. The police aren't supposed to just endlessly investigate people whose politics they don't like, rummaging around in their personal history, looking for something to charge them with. It's an ugly look for you to be calling for that sort of thing.
I don't like that he seems to be a criminal. All the legal bullshit he does that I disagree with is a a far fucking lower priority.
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Old 09-25-2019, 12:42 AM
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My preference is that politicos not use criminal law to settle political disputes. I don't think that's healthy for the country. There's a good reason it's been a long-standing tradition here.

If there's strong evidence that he did something seriously criminal, fine, prosecute him after he's out of office, IDGAF.
Oh my goodness.

Do you not see what is happening? Trump is currently USING THE OFFICE of the president of the United States to influence elections. "prosecute him after he's out of office?"!!!! How does one do that when his action of gaining the assistance of a foreign power to smear his political rivals are designed specifically to KEEP HIM IN OFFICE.

Do you honestly not see a problem with these actions? Is holding power THAT IMPORTANT to you that you can just look away?

Do you not think that withholding congressional money from a foreign country until they come up with smears against his political rival is "serious" enough? REALLY?
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:16 AM
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You good with things?
No, but the country is not ruined forever.
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:07 AM
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No, but the country is not ruined forever.
“No, but God knows we keep trying.”
— Harvey Milk

Or may have just been a quote from the movie.

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  #43  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:20 AM
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It is inevitable that whenever someone mentions treason, someone has to point out how it is defined in the Constitution. But some go by the colloquial definition of doing something to the severe detriment of the country.
If we set the bar THAT low, it could put everyone who votes for a Republican (for ANYTHING) in jeopardy of losing life, liberty and property...
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:41 AM
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Y'know, I'm usually one of the people who's quoting that Constitutional definition of treason, and pointing out that it doesn't apply. And in fact, Trump's obstruction of justice, sexual assaults, terrorist threats, incitements to violence, tax evasion, frauds, violations of immigration law, and (just recently) falsification of National Weather Service data, along with most of his other crimes, are not treason.

In addition to all of those non-treason crimes, however, we also have that he's cooperated with a foreign country in the commission of acts that that foreign country has officially described as acts of war. That is, in fact, aiding and abetting an enemy, by any sane definition. So yes, Trump has committed treason.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:45 AM
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If we set the bar THAT low, it could put everyone who votes for a Republican (for ANYTHING) in jeopardy of losing life, liberty and property...
Sounds good to me.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:56 AM
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Getting back on topic -- seeing as it has been pretty much ignored from the second post on -- the President's pardon power is effectively unlimited (with the possible exception of pardoning himself, which has never been addressed by the Supreme Court). This has been ruled on many times. If Trump decides to pardon every person in his administration, or who ever was in his administration, plus Antonio Brown and Bernie Madoff, even at 11:59 AM on the day the next President is sworn in, it is completely legal and subject to no oversight. Many other Presidents have issued controversial last-minute pardons (eg: Marc Rich); it is almost routine.


Whether or not this is a Good Thing, on the other hand, is an entirely different question.
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:08 AM
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Yes, pretty much so. I suspect his ability to pardon himself will indeed be tested in court. Of course the Good Courts of The States can just laugh at the pardons and say "Begone! You have no power here!"
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:10 AM
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Whether he has committed "treason" or not, he is not going to be convicted of treason. Jesus Christ people.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:21 AM
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You know that "treason" has an actual definition, right? It's not just "orange man bad". You've got to be able to demonstrate the elements of the crime, and you can't do that, because President Trump's actions don't meet the elements of that crime.
The fact that you think all of this can be summed up as "orange man bad" really shows just how little you've been paying attention.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:41 AM
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Yes, pretty much so. I suspect his ability to pardon himself will indeed be tested in court.
It probably won't be. The Justice Department has decided to take the stance that he can't even be indicted (at least on federal charges) while he's in office. And after he's out of office, when Justice might be willing to pursue cases against him, he won't have any pardon power at all any more. The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for "all of the crimes I have committed", but that would mean Trump admitting that he'd done wrong, which I can't see him doing, not even to save his own skin.
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