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Old 10-02-2019, 09:43 PM
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Impeachment strategies: Let's help Nancy!


Exciting times, these. We might be watching a lot of important things unravel.Seems to me the most critical thing is to eject trump from government as quickly as possible without breaking things even more. To this end my wish would be for the House to find a really good spokesperson to communicate 2-4 of the absolute worst charges that can be proved. Everything said on an 8th grade level. Shout the message from the rooftops for a week, then vote in tje House. Make things so clear that the Senate won't dare give it just lip service. An added bonus move would be keeping Schiff and Biden completely silent throughout the process.


What else would work better?
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:48 PM
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What’s wrong with Schiff?
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:24 PM
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I found out yesterday that Schiff managed impeachments of two Federal judges. I donít think replacing him just because bad orange man says mean things is smart strategy. It isnít like Pelosi is going to appoint someone to take the lead and Trump is going to say, ďOh yeah, heís a fair guy, I guess I better get my strong legal arguments together.Ē
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:26 PM
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I found out yesterday that Schiff managed impeachments of two Federal judges. I donít think replacing him just because bad orange man says mean things is smart strategy. It isnít like Pelosi is going to appoint someone to take the lead and Trump is going to say, ďOh yeah, heís a fair guy, I guess I better get my strong legal arguments together.Ē
Trump hates him. Thatís good enough for me.
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:31 PM
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I like Schiff. As was mentioned not only has he overseen impeachment of judges (which I knew nothing about until now, good for him) but he has prosecuted spies and money launderers before.
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:15 PM
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In general I like him too. Problem is his sarcasm sometimes gets loose at inappropriate times. If you are driving the impeachment of a person who is compromising a national election you don't do snark. You don' t say anytthing that can be shown.to be misleading or only partly true. No embellishments for effect. Biden can't meet that standard and Im not sure Schiff can either. Give us somebody with the gravitas of Walter Kronkheit or Shelby Foote. (Ok I'm old and can't spell worth a damn).
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:19 PM
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Let Trump be Trump.
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Old 10-06-2019, 02:42 PM
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Exciting times, these. We might be watching a lot of important things unravel.Seems to me the most critical thing is to eject trump from government as quickly as possible without breaking things even more. To this end my wish would be for the House to find a really good spokesperson to communicate 2-4 of the absolute worst charges that can be proved. Everything said on an 8th grade level. Shout the message from the rooftops for a week, then vote in tje House. Make things so clear that the Senate won't dare give it just lip service. An added bonus move would be keeping Schiff and Biden completely silent throughout the process.


What else would work better?
A system in which the unsubstantial people actually had representation rather than the donor class alone, whom "both" sides serve.

Let's recall that Obama took Bush's 2 wars to 7, we also caged migrant kids then, we also engaged in endless wars of profiteering and occupation, we pulled a coup in Honduras in 2009 which is contributing to migration, we supported as we still do genocide in Gaza and Yemen, and we still had a dysfunctional society in which 4 people had/have more wealth and access to resources than half of the population.

I realize Don excites the lizard brains of many, but Don is not THE problem but rather a symptom of a society in decline as a result of inequity and feudalistic hording and redistribution of societal wealth evermore into the hands of our aristocracy.
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Old 10-06-2019, 02:47 PM
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Reported for threadshitting.
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Old 10-06-2019, 02:53 PM
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In general I like him too. Problem is his sarcasm sometimes gets loose at inappropriate times. If you are driving the impeachment of a person who is compromising a national election you don't do snark. You don' t say anytthing that can be shown.to be misleading or only partly true. No embellishments for effect. Biden can't meet that standard and Im not sure Schiff can either. Give us somebody with the gravitas of Walter Kronkheit or Shelby Foote. (Ok I'm old and can't spell worth a damn).
No, you will never see anyone like that dispensing information again, by design. Under Clinton the FCC was deregulated. Back in the 1980s there were something on the order of 50 some odd media outlets/companies. Now we're down to half a dozen major multinational corporations who control ~90% of what americans are exposed to per "information".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Our corporate state media machine is for "managing" the perceptual reality of the population. Older amerians will note we don't see body bags coming back from all our endless wars; the system learned that lesson from our Nam misadventures.

Which "driver" would you suggest? Who is not funded by the donor class?

Americans would do well to abandon the notion that some aristocrat will come stand up for them/us when we won't even do that for ourselves. These people do not lead, they must be drug kicking and screaming into representing the unsubstantial people. And we've given them little to be concerned about.

Last edited by Fentoine Lum; 10-06-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 02:54 PM
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Reported for threadshitting.

Who me? Really? Well do go on, tell us all why ....
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Old 10-06-2019, 02:58 PM
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who me? Really? Well do go on, tell us all why ....
Oops, sorry, thought we were in the Pit.
nm

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  #13  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:18 PM
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Let Trump be Trump.
That will be really, really messy. Better to produce inarguable evidence of Team Tramp's heinous treason so POTUS and VP both run off to Riyadh for refuge FAST! (Leaving only their minions behind to face the music.) Maybe Moscow Mitch must follow forthwith.

But "Tramp being Tramp" is a disaster recipe on steroids. Our question necessarily becomes: How to STOP Tramp from being Tramp? How to keep him from wielding The Power? Must we depend on shaky loyalists to disobey monstrous but legal orders?

How to help Speaker Pelosi manage the impeachment process? Leak. Provide evidence. Post it everywhere. Shout from rooftops etc or at least across all media. Will that work?
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:25 PM
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Oops, sorry, thought we were in the Pit.
nm
Really don't see what that has to do with anything, but ok.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:28 PM
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Really don't see what that has to do with anything, but ok.
I had written something else, which may have not been allowed in this forum (but is allowed in the forum we call the “BBQ Pit”)....so I deleted it before the five-minute post edit window ended, and added “nm,” for “never mind.”

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-06-2019 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:31 PM
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That will be really, really messy. Better to produce inarguable evidence of Team Tramp's heinous treason so POTUS and VP both run off to Riyadh for refuge FAST! (Leaving only their minions behind to face the music.) Maybe Moscow Mitch must follow forthwith.

But "Tramp being Tramp" is a disaster recipe on steroids. Our question necessarily becomes: How to STOP Tramp from being Tramp? How to keep him from wielding The Power? Must we depend on shaky loyalists to disobey monstrous but legal orders?

How to help Speaker Pelosi manage the impeachment process? Leak. Provide evidence. Post it everywhere. Shout from rooftops etc or at least across all media. Will that work?
Well that's how we got here isn't it; just keep the spectacle, illusion and Reality America Show exciting, dysfunctional and chaotic. Anything to avoid societal attention on our endless economically cannibalizing wars of aggression, our concentration camps on the border, our half century of societal wealth redistribution/concentration and the decline of the empire. The donor class has no preference for "which" party or personality it rolls out to deny you healthcare and education while 4 people now horde more wealth and access to resources than half of the american population.

Expect quite the show.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:33 PM
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I had written something else, which may have not been allowed in this forum (but is allowed in the forum we call the “BBQ Pit”)....so I deleted it before the five-minute post edit window ended, and added “nm,” for “never mind.”
Yeah I don't pay attention to any of that, objective reality is what it is. Don't much gaf where it is "allowed".

So you went a tattling?

Last edited by Fentoine Lum; 10-06-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:36 PM
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An added bonus move would be keeping Schiff and Biden completely silent throughout the process.
Schiff is chair of the House intelligence committee. The whistleblower is from the intelligence community. The options are ignoring the whistleblower report or pulling Schiff out of the chair position. There's not really another completely silent option.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:36 PM
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Yeah I don't pay attention to any of that, objective reality is what it is. Don't much gaf where it is "allowed".

So you went a tattling?
Yes, I reported you for “contributing” something (twice) to this thread that has nothing at all to do with the OP — helping Nancy Pelosi.

By responding to you now, I am contributing to the hijack — so I will not respond again.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-06-2019 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 03:38 PM
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Honestly I feel like impeachment is a waste of time and more about angry revenge fantasies against Trump than a well thought out strategy. Even if Trump is impeached it's doubtful he will be removed from office, very doubtful and by the conclusion would most likely be at the very end of his term.

I think it would be better to let him finish his term, which he is going to anyway and defeat him in the election, that is a better focus.

I think impeachment could actually backfire and possibly even result in another Trump win, if it fires up his base enough.

I feel like this is all just political theater when that will accomplish nothing of real substance, better to just suck it up for one more year, he hasn't done anything that can't be undone, win the next election, and if appropriate let him face charges from the state level if crimes occurred.

I think Trump being impeached, removed from office, and being imprisoned or something by the Feds is nothing but pure fantasy.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:47 PM
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[QUOTE=pool;2190122... I feel like this is all just political theater when that will accomplish nothing of real substance, better to just suck it up for one more year, he hasn't done anything that can't be undone, win the next election, and if appropriate let him face charges from the state level if crimes occurred.

I think Trump being impeached, removed from office, and being imprisoned or something by the Feds is nothing but pure fantasy.[/QUOTE]


Your path is pragmatic and might be the best from that perspective. Seems like we need to lay down a marker, though, to show that some things are out of bounds. Basically I think trump must pay a price for his publicly acknowledged evil deeds.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:16 PM
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Honestly I feel like impeachment is a waste of time and more about angry revenge fantasies against Trump than a well thought out strategy. Even if Trump is impeached it's doubtful he will be removed from office, very doubtful and by the conclusion would most likely be at the very end of his term.
What is your squik level? How many high crimes can he freely commit? How much blatant bribery can you ignore? He has bragged of obstruction; of conspiring with foreign agents violating federal election laws before and during his term; of dealing with (sucking up to) mafiyas foreign and domestic; and so much more. How much is enough? Inciting violence against Americans - are you okay with more of that?

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I think it would be better to let him finish his term, which he is going to anyway and defeat him in the election, that is a better focus.
What makes you think he would willingly quit the Oval Office without blanket amnesty? Defeated, he'll immediately be indicted and jailed without bail by state and federal prosecutors; convicted, he'll rot and die in prison. Do you think he would go quietly?

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I think Trump being impeached, removed from office, and being imprisoned or something by the Feds is nothing but pure fantasy.
Do you think no vile evidence could be enough to flip ~20 GOP senators? How about financials revealing his ownership by unfriendly powers and his explicit treason? I fear he'll stage an emergency and declare martial law if such revelations seem imminent. So yes, he may indeed escape conviction by the Senate. But expect blood.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:31 PM
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Honestly I feel like impeachment is a waste of time and more about angry revenge fantasies against Trump than a well thought out strategy. Even if Trump is impeached it's doubtful he will be removed from office, very doubtful and by the conclusion would most likely be at the very end of his term.

I think it would be better to let him finish his term, which he is going to anyway and defeat him in the election, that is a better focus.

I think impeachment could actually backfire and possibly even result in another Trump win, if it fires up his base enough.

I feel like this is all just political theater when that will accomplish nothing of real substance, better to just suck it up for one more year, he hasn't done anything that can't be undone, win the next election, and if appropriate let him face charges from the state level if crimes occurred.

I think Trump being impeached, removed from office, and being imprisoned or something by the Feds is nothing but pure fantasy.
Going by this argument - the president has free rein (reign?) now and forever to do whatever he wishes.

Shouldn't action be taken to prove that your system works, that America is a ruled by laws?
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:27 AM
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One way Democrats could make impeachment more palatable to Republicans would be to sell it as, "We are after Trump and Trump only - once we get him out of office together, we'll be peaceful and cooperate with the next president (be it Pence or some Gerald Ford-like new VP.)"

If the GOP believes that the Democrats are out to get any president with (R) attached to his name, Trump or not, then there is much less, if any, incentive to cooperate.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:47 AM
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One way Democrats could make impeachment more palatable to Republicans would be to sell it as, "We are after Trump and Trump only - once we get him out of office together, we'll be peaceful and cooperate with the next president (be it Pence or some Gerald Ford-like new VP.)"

If the GOP believes that the Democrats are out to get any president with (R) attached to his name, Trump or not, then there is much less, if any, incentive to cooperate.
How does that work post merrick garland?

It's good for democracy if the dems don't fight and the repubs cheat?
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:48 AM
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Honestly I feel like impeachment is a waste of time and more about angry revenge fantasies against Trump than a well thought out strategy. Even if Trump is impeached it's doubtful he will be removed from office, very doubtful and by the conclusion would most likely be at the very end of his term.

I think it would be better to let him finish his term, which he is going to anyway and defeat him in the election, that is a better focus.

I think impeachment could actually backfire and possibly even result in another Trump win, if it fires up his base enough.

I feel like this is all just political theater when that will accomplish nothing of real substance, better to just suck it up for one more year, he hasn't done anything that can't be undone, win the next election, and if appropriate let him face charges from the state level if crimes occurred.

I think Trump being impeached, removed from office, and being imprisoned or something by the Feds is nothing but pure fantasy.
Stick around.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:12 AM
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How does that work post merrick garland?

It's good for democracy if the dems don't fight and the repubs cheat?
Velocity wasn’t suggesting what the Democrats should do, just what they should “sell it as.”

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-08-2019 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:17 PM
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One strategy may be that when whomever decides to ignore a subpoena, call the cops on them. Like we do every day in every state of this country.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:14 PM
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One strategy may be that when whomever decides to ignore a subpoena, call the cops on them. Like we do every day in every state of this country.
Yes. Over in another thread, HurricaneDitka posted a link to a letter from Trump lawyers to Pelosi et al., demanding the impeachment investigation be conducted according to rules of ďdue processĒ (Trump gets to interrogate witnesses, etc.).

I donít they they really want to go there...do they really want this to be like a real-world criminal investigation and trial?
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:25 PM
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One strategy may be that when whomever decides to ignore a subpoena, call the cops on them. Like we do every day in every state of this country.
Yes, and make sure the press is there to capture the arrests.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:31 PM
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Yes, and make sure the press is there to capture the arrests.
But thatís not happening. Why? Why the hell not? Itís a federal subpoena, I suppose, so call the local police where the person lives and have them taken in by FBI if necessary. I do not see why the hell this is so hard.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:07 PM
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... I donít they they really want to go there...do they really want this to be like a real-world criminal investigation and trial?
If it were an actual option, it would be extremely foolish for President Trump to not avail himself of it. Our criminal proceedings have substantial protections built into them for the accused. An incomplete list would be:
Requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt
A chance to face one's accuser(s)
Protections against double jeopardy
Warrant requirements for (most / some) searches
A right against self-incrimination
A (supposedly) impartial judge and jury
Etc
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:09 PM
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But thatís not happening. Why? Why the hell not? Itís a federal subpoena, I suppose, so call the local police where the person lives and have them taken in by FBI if necessary. I do not see why the hell this is so hard.
IANAL, but I think the short answer is that there are some fairly substantial executive privilege issues at play.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:28 PM
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IANAL, but I think the short answer is that there are some fairly substantial executive privilege issues at play.
Oh yes, I’m glad you mentioned this right alongside your post of Trump’s rights under criminal proceedings.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned from watching Law and Order, the accused always gets to remain silent, have his lawyers ask questions during the consideration of indictments, can’t be compelled to provide any evidence, and can prohibit the testimony of witnesses if they were going to talk about private conversations. You know, the very standard and totally perfect trial procedures that should apply to the House.

Last edited by Ravenman; 10-08-2019 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:29 PM
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If it were an actual option, it would be extremely foolish for President Trump to not avail himself of it. Our criminal proceedings have substantial protections built into them for the accused. An incomplete list would be:
Requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt
A chance to face one's accuser(s)
Protections against double jeopardy
Warrant requirements for (most / some) searches
A right against self-incrimination
A (supposedly) impartial judge and jury
Etc
So we can give up the "President cannot be indicted" decision? I'm in.
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Old 10-09-2019, 05:53 AM
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IANAL, but I think the short answer is that there are some fairly substantial executive privilege issues at play.
That might be the talking point of the moment, but you donít really believe this is how it works, right? You donít have to be a lawyer to see how awfully convenient that idea is to a law-breaking president.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:59 PM
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IANAL, but I think the short answer is that there are some fairly substantial executive privilege issues at play.
Perhaps you can at least try expanding upon that view, so it's distinguishable from Individual-1's use of the term to mean "fuck off".
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:04 PM
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Yes, and make sure the press is there to capture the arrests.
Yes this would be deeply satisfying but it could backfire. In terms of dictatorial actions, jailing political enemies is a step above what Trump has done so far. Highly publicized arrests could be viewed by some as evidence that the Democrats are even worse than Trump.

That said, there needs to be some punishment for failing to accede to court ordered disclosures, and I suspect that for Trump's lakeys their loyalty relies entirely on their personal interests, and won't extend to cooling their heels in jail for a significant period. So, yes threaten them with jail if they violate court orders, and grant it if they don't comply, but keep it on the down low, and hope they come to their senses soon.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:10 PM
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IANAL, but I think the short answer is that there are some fairly substantial executive privilege issues at play.
OK let's start with a simple one. How are Trumps tax returns covered by executive privilege?
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:50 PM
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OK let's start with a simple one. How are Trumps tax returns covered by executive privilege?
I think it's an open question whether they are or not. We'll have to wait and see what the courts decide. The arguments President Trump's lawyers advanced is available here.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:07 PM
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So, 'Treasury Department shall furnish to Congress on request...', is what... a fucking suggestion?

The only reason the courts are even involved is because the Trump is refusing to obey established laws. Apparently he is not subject to established rules/laws.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:12 PM
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Yes this would be deeply satisfying but it could backfire. In terms of dictatorial actions, jailing political enemies is a step above what Trump has done so far. Highly publicized ahrrests could be viewed by some as evidence that the Democrats are even worse than Trump.
Yeah, even President Keane had to walk that one back after a few weeks.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:22 PM
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So, 'Treasury Department shall furnish to Congress on request...', is what... a fucking suggestion?

The only reason the courts are even involved is because the Trump is refusing to obey established laws. Apparently he is not subject to established rules/laws.
The courts are involved because acts of Congress can be, and with some regularity are, found to be unconstitutional. It remains to be seen if this one will or won't be.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:27 PM
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Whenever I see a conservative talk about "important issues of executive privilege," I actually take it as a little reminder to myself that I have not been transported into an alternate universe in which someone other than a Republican is President. Such posts are to me like how those spinning tops were used in the movie Inception.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:37 PM
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The courts are involved because acts of Congress can be, and with some regularity are, found to be unconstitutional. It remains to be seen if this one will or won't be.
Okay, I'll play: Upon what grounds do you think it might plausibly be found unconstitutional? Do please note that this has in fact gone to the Supreme Court before - the ruling was 9-0 against Nixon.

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Old 10-09-2019, 03:41 PM
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Do please note that this has in fact gone to the Supreme Court before - the ruling was 9-0 against Nixon.
Oviously you're not aware of the more important precedent, MAGA v. Libtards/Antifa/et al, decided by all the best judges.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
The courts are involved because acts of Congress can be, and with some regularity are, found to be unconstitutional. It remains to be seen if this one will or won't be.
Seems to be just another among the many, "...extraordinary arguments", by this administration.
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  #48  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Okay, I'll play: Upon what grounds do you think it might plausibly be found unconstitutional? Do please note that this has in fact gone to the Supreme Court before - the ruling was 9-0 against Nixon.
I believe the arguments made were:

I. The subpoena exceeds the Committeeís statutory jurisdiction.

II. The Committeeís subpoena exceeds Congressís Article I authority.

III. The Committeeís subpoena does not further any non-legislative task of Congress.

IV. The district courtís conception of Congressís subpoena power has no limiting principle.
  #49  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:54 PM
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If it were an actual option, it would be extremely foolish for President Trump to not avail himself of it. Our criminal proceedings have substantial protections built into them for the accused.
If this were a criminal trial. It is not, and it does not speak well of anyone to buy into the obfuscatory Trump spin. This is a review by the HR office to decide if the paper trail needs to be started to support firing an employee for cause. Not a criminal trial, not even a grand jury proceeding, just an investigation to find the facts.

You do think finding the facts is important, don't you?
  #50  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:11 PM
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I see a lot of arguments about whether Congress has a legislative purpose (which they actually don't need according to the statute), and stating that they don't because they haven't opened impeachment hearings (oops!). But nothing related to executive privilege.

Here, I'll help you out. The purpose of executive privilege* was to allow the executive branch to deliberate about policy freely without having to watch their back every time someone comes up with a crazy idea in a brainstorming session. So The question I'm asking is what is in what way does the debts and income of Donald J Trump have on the policy deliberations at the white house. Just so you know I am fully willing to accept that the two are related and I'm sure that many many people would be interested in knowing how.


*which by the way is a phrase first used in the supreme court verdict specifically saying that it didn't apply to an impeachment proceeding (double oops!)

Last edited by Buck Godot; 10-09-2019 at 04:12 PM.
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