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  #151  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:10 PM
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You know, for years, liberals have been asking what it would take for Trumpers to ditch Trump. And the answer is: Probably foreign policy. Pat Robertson is now speaking out against Trump. And if Trump ever abandoned not just the Kurds, but started criticizing and abandoning Israel as well, his entire evangelical coalition may be at risk.
  #152  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:13 PM
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You actually believe that most Americans care about brown people being killed in the Middle East? We've been drone bombing people for almost 2 decades.
That was actually my message to Cruz and Cornyn, how Donald Trump and the GOP are complicit in the genocide of "fellow Christians" and the GOP, in order to save "God's people", need to focus on who caused this massacre - Donald Trump.
  #153  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:18 PM
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The Kurds brought it on themselves when they decided not to support George Washington in 1776.
  #154  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:20 PM
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You know, for years, liberals have been asking what it would take for Trumpers to ditch Trump. And the answer is: Probably foreign policy. Pat Robertson is now speaking out against Trump. And if Trump ever abandoned not just the Kurds, but started criticizing and abandoning Israel as well, his entire evangelical coalition may be at risk.
LOL, they'll be back in Trump's hand soon enough. They aren't going to ditch him when it time to vote.
  #155  
Old 10-10-2019, 10:04 PM
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The lesson for the Kurds, for the Afghans, for any "partner" in American imperialism is, just wait: we'll stab you in the back eventually.

Leader of the free world. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
  #156  
Old 10-11-2019, 06:46 AM
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Graham doesn't care about the Kurds:

https://www.axios.com/report-sen-lin...3e1d5a0bb.html

Quote:
Report: Sen. Lindsey Graham called U.S. ally Kurds a "threat" in August phone call
He was pranked twice by Russian pranksters, who recorded and released the call to the media.

Other points:

Quote:
Driving the news: Graham said in the August phone call that he was "sympathetic" to Turkey's "Kurdish problem," per Politico, and that he "told President Trump that Obama made a huge mistake in relying on the YPG Kurds."

Of note: Graham was actually speaking with Russian pranksters Alexey Stolyarov and Vladimir Kuznetsov, according to Politico, and not Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar.

Catch up quick: Graham also referenced the president's personal interest in a “Turkish bank case” that appears to refer to the 2017 case against gold trader Reza Zarrab.
  #157  
Old 10-11-2019, 07:14 AM
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Fun Fact: The US gave Turkey intelligence that it may have used in planning the attack on the Kurds:

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The US shared intelligence with Turkey that may have helped it target the Kurds in Syria

* The US provided Turkey with intelligence, including surveillance video and information from reconnaissance aircraft, that may have aided in its assault on the US-allied Kurdish forces in Syria, The New York Times reported.

*The intelligence sharing continued as late as Monday — two days before Turkey invaded Syria to go after the Kurds — according to the report.

*Past reports suggest the US in 2017 began sharing more intelligence on the Kurds with Turkey to quell the Turkish government's anger over Trump arming Kurdish forces in Syria.

...

The US was providing intelligence to Turkey on the region as part of a counterterrorism partnership up until Monday, a Department of Defense official told The Times, the day after the Trump administration announced it was pulling US troops from northeastern Syria ahead of a Turkish operation.

...

Two US officials told The Times that as Turkish military officials planned the assault over the past few weeks, they were provided with American surveillance video and information from reconnaissance aircraft. Information like this could prove useful in picking out targets for air strikes.
And there's this gem:

Quote:
At a June press conference in Japan, the president spoke about the ongoing tensions with Erdogan over the Kurds and suggested he was standing in the way of a massacre.

"Frankly, he wanted to wipe out — he has a big problem with the Kurds, as everyone knows," Trump said at the time. "And he had a 65,000-man army at the border, and he was going to wipe out the Kurds, who helped us with ISIS."
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-s...rce=reddit.com
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  #158  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:46 AM
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You mean it shared intelligence with a NATO partner about a foreign threat.....
  #159  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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You mean it shared intelligence with a NATO partner about a foreign threat.....
Yep, and were doing it just about up until the invasion. Life's tough when you're working with both sides like that.
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  #160  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:24 AM
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Trump's 'win' here is actually gonna wind up extending the US's presence in the region. The irony it burns.

American disengagement not only allows ISIS a rebirth (a 'renaisisance'), but strengthens both Iran's and Putin's hand while also creating more opportunities for them to exploit. As a bonus, Saudi will not take kindly to an extending Turkish influence and that should create another dynamic of instability.

So, unless the US is going to abandon its commitment to annihilating ISIS, and to safe passage in the Persian Gulf, and "standing firm" with Saudi Arabia, US troops will be back. In larger numbers, with greater chance of escalation, and for the longer-term.
  #161  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:17 AM
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Agreed.

And add:

Kurds - a disastrous loss
European allies of USA - you absolutely can't trust the current US President
especially when Trump said ISIS members would head to Europe (like they would feel good about him un-caring about their safety).

But dumb comments that 'Kurds did not help at Normandy"?? How could they have helped 2000 miles away?
  #162  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:18 AM
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Germany was at Normandy, and we have an alliance with them, so maybe Trump has a point.
  #163  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:36 AM
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e
But dumb comments that 'Kurds did not help at Normandy"?? How could they have helped 2000 miles away?
I mean, their leadership have been willing to join with every damn imperialist at the drop of a hat so was probably an oversight.
  #164  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:11 PM
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Trump's just rubbing it in by now:

Trump admin sending thousands more troops to Saudi Arabia

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WASHINGTON — The Trump administration said Friday it is sending more troops, fighter jets and missile defense weaponry to Saudi Arabia to help bolster the kingdom’s defenses after a September attack on its oil facilities.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper ordered the deployment of 3,000 service members, two fighter squadrons, one air expeditionary wing, two Patriot Missile batteries and one THAAD missile defense system, Pentagon spokesperson Jonathan Hoffman said.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-11-2019 at 01:12 PM.
  #165  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:15 PM
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Part of his "Bring the troops back home" campaign promise.

But I campaigned on the fact that I was going to bring our—our soldiers home, and bring them home as rapidly as possible
  #166  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:33 PM
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In the 1990s, we sent troops to protect the Kingdom, building a conspicuous Western and un-Islamic presence on the Prophet's peninsula at a time when the House of Saud's waste of national resources sent living standards plummeting for the average Saudi. The result was Al Qaida.

Funny how history sometimes repeats itself.
  #167  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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Dumping bad news on a Friday. US troops are going to protect a country who spawned most of the 9/11 attackers. Perfectly reasonable that US taxpayers should supply this protection.
  #168  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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Daniel Dale, CNN:
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The president told reporters today that “we have no soldiers in Syria.”

The US has 1,000 soldiers in Syria.

This is extreme, up-is-down deception. It’ll get very little coverage.
  #169  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:22 PM
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Aw man. And I really thought he was telling the truth this time!
  #170  
Old 10-11-2019, 03:49 PM
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OOOpsie bombed US troops instead.
  #171  
Old 10-11-2019, 04:53 PM
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Has to be fake news! We don't have any soldiers left in Syria!
  #172  
Old 10-11-2019, 05:08 PM
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The Turkish Defense Ministry issued a statement in response to Newsweek's report, denying that it had targeted a U.S. observation base but had, in self-defense, fired upon "terrorist" positions.
Yep. All this, allowed and encouraged by the party of 13 Benghazi investigations.
  #173  
Old 10-11-2019, 06:19 PM
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President Trump announces that the U.S. military is now a mercenary band for hire.

ABC News:
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On deployment of thousands of additional U.S. troops to Saudi Arabia, Pres. Trump says, "Are you ready: Saudi Arabia, at my request, has agreed to pay us for everything we're doing. That's a first!"
  #174  
Old 10-11-2019, 07:09 PM
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Devin Dwyer, ABC News:
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JUST IN from @MarthaRaddatz: ISIS has breached several prisons in northern Syria. Official says Turkey is deliberately targeting American bases so we will depart. @ABC
  #175  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:18 PM
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Aw man. And I really thought he was telling the truth this time!
Typical Trump. He made a public statement promising to bring the troops back and got all the public attention from that announcement.

Then the next day, when he was supposed to actually do the thing he promised? He had already moved on to the next thing.

He used to show up at charity events and announce he was making a big donation. He'd be photographed and people would shake his hand. And then after he had gotten the publicity he wanted, he'd never bother sending the charity the money he had promised.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 10-11-2019 at 09:18 PM.
  #176  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:52 AM
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Josh Rogin, Washington Post:
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SDF Commander to US: "I need to know if you are capable of protecting my people, of stopping these bombs falling on us or not. I need to know, because if you're not, I need to make a deal with Russia and the regime now."
  #177  
Old 10-12-2019, 02:41 PM
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Germany was at Normandy, and we have an alliance with them, so maybe Trump has a point.
From my earlier post (152):

Of course Trump is allied with Germany - presumably because they were at Normandy.
  #178  
Old 10-12-2019, 02:46 PM
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Damn. Picturing my ninja showing up, seeing nobody there, checks his phone only to exclaim "Dafuck! Yesterday?"
  #179  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:12 PM
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Richard Engel, NBC:
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Turkey’s conflict in Syria took a major turn today. First alleged atrocities by Turkish-backed Arab militias, executing Kurds. US military officials tell me it's true, and they are DEEPLY concerned it opens the door to BOTH ethnic cleansing of Kurds and return of ISIS/Al-Qaeda
  #180  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Josh Rogin, Washington Post:
SDF Commander to US: "I need to know if you are capable of protecting my people, of stopping these bombs falling on us or not. I need to know, because if you're not, I need to make a deal with Russia and the regime now."

So to be clear, they can strike a deal with the Russians to fight on their behalf as Syrian Kurds against ISIS and Turkey? Go for it.

Turkey and the Kurds have been fighting with each other long before our involvement. It's not our fight. We helped the tri-state area of Kurds against ISIS. Not the other way around. For us to protect them from Turkey in this matter places the United States on their side of a civil war. It means we support the redrawing of boundaries toward the creation of a new country from the land of 3 others. I don't see how we can do this without turning on an ally and making things worse. If the UN wants a Kurdistan state then let them fight it out.
  #181  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:05 PM
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Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
I hate to beat this drum, or feather your cap because this sucks, but got it in one. Evry bit of it is true.
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  #182  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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The Kurds brought it on themselves when they decided not to support George Washington in 1776.
It's because they hate revolution and do not desire a homeland like we did.
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  #183  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:13 PM
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Turkey and the Kurds have been fighting with each other long before our involvement. It's not our fight. We helped the tri-state area of Kurds against ISIS. Not the other way around. For us to protect them from Turkey in this matter places the United States on their side of a civil war. It means we support the redrawing of boundaries toward the creation of a new country from the land of 3 others. I don't see how we can do this without turning on an ally and making things worse. If the UN wants a Kurdistan state then let them fight it out.
America and western allies committed to defeating ISIS. Kurds were instrumental in that fight and with the aid of arms and intelligence fought hard and won, with a reported 10K in Kurdish casualties. So we owe Kurds a debt larger than just the military aid we provided to them. To say we can do nothing for them and abandon them, only to be attacked by the Turks, is deplorable. It's reminiscent of the aid Americans provided to the mujahadin in Afghanistan to defeat the Russians, only to abandon them and have it bite us in the ass for years to come. America does not need to turn on Turkey -- a fickle ally at best. We just need to make it clear that Turkey cannot attack our Kurdish allies. It was working. Until that orange ass-clown was threatened with having his Istanbul towers re/de-named.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 10-12-2019 at 05:14 PM.
  #184  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:50 PM
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I mean, their leadership have been willing to join with every damn imperialist at the drop of a hat so was probably an oversight.
I felt this was worth quoting. AK84, you are Pakistani, correct? So therefore you do in fact have an educated opinion on what it's like to be a slave state, then an Imperialist client state, then an independent. In other words, a traditional "area of the world" where your tribes assimilated into what you have today. The Kurds are no different, but because they are stateless, and in some areas practice the "wrong" form of Islam, they are vilified...as I am sure the Brits once (and in some cases, continue to) do to people from your culture, many of which are English/British educated.

Would you trade all of that to be in the Kurd's position right now? Turkey is a nominal ally of yours, India, not so much. This is all happening in your part of the world. I am extremely interested in an opinion from that part of the world. Your comment about them "willing to join every imperialist at the drop of a hat" is a bad start man, especially considering what Pakistani culture went through to get where they are. If Kurdistan was a nation, and Pakistanis "just" an ethnic group with no country, would you feel the same way?
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  #185  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:52 PM
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America and western allies committed to defeating ISIS. Kurds were instrumental in that fight and with the aid of arms and intelligence fought hard and won, with a reported 10K in Kurdish casualties. So we owe Kurds a debt larger than just the military aid we provided to them. To say we can do nothing for them and abandon them, only to be attacked by the Turks, is deplorable. It's reminiscent of the aid Americans provided to the mujahadin in Afghanistan to defeat the Russians, only to abandon them and have it bite us in the ass for years to come. America does not need to turn on Turkey -- a fickle ally at best. We just need to make it clear that Turkey cannot attack our Kurdish allies. It was working. Until that orange ass-clown was threatened with having his Istanbul towers re/de-named.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ With Flipping D Titties On A Fucking Pogo Stick...from your keyboard to my ears...well, eyes, I mean...you know...

And also, in other words, we would have NEVER done this under ANY other President. He needs to backtrack that shit immediately. Authorize "black" airstrikes, troop insertions, WHATEVER. DO SOMETHING. YOU ARE ABANDONING THEM TO DIE. You also owe them favors.
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Last edited by FoieGrasIsEvil; 10-12-2019 at 05:55 PM.
  #186  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:18 PM
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SDF Commander to US: "I need to know if you are capable of protecting my people, of stopping these bombs falling on us or not. I need to know, because if you're not, I need to make a deal with Russia and the regime now."

So to be clear, they can strike a deal with the Russians to fight on their behalf as Syrian Kurds against ISIS and Turkey? Go for it.

Turkey and the Kurds have been fighting with each other long before our involvement. It's not our fight. We helped the tri-state area of Kurds against ISIS. Not the other way around. For us to protect them from Turkey in this matter places the United States on their side of a civil war. It means we support the redrawing of boundaries toward the creation of a new country from the land of 3 others. I don't see how we can do this without turning on an ally and making things worse. If the UN wants a Kurdistan state then let them fight it out.
I don't believe that Erdogan would have ordered the offensive if the U.S. president had been firm in his support for the Kurds in the phone call. He could have said that the Kurds were the U.S.'s friends and there'd be severe consequences if they were attacked (e.g. sanctions or more). There don't appear to have been any punitive measures imposed on Turkey by the U.S. for their actions.

Trump has not condemned it, other than saying it was a "bad idea", and has basically said "the Kurds and Turks have been fighting for a long time", so what can you do? (said while standing aside, to let both sides duke it out.) Then saying the Kurds weren't really U.S. allies because they didn't fight at Normandy!

It's a disgrace, and a shameful stain on the United States, not to mention strategically self-defeating. I think this episode represents one of the lowest points in U.S. foreign policy history, and there have been a lot of low points in the last couple of years.
  #187  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:22 PM
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Donald Trump: "The Kurds were our mutual allies in the fight against ISIS. They are off the table and to be protected as such"

Erdogan: "Aww, man, well...there goes that invasion I guess..."
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  #188  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:36 PM
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Joyce Karam, The National (UAE):
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Horrible videos emerging from NE #Syria today of #Turkey proxies field-executing SDF fighters.

You can hear one saying “another pig gone.” Warning, this is a graphic thread of videos
I haven't posted the link to her Twitter account, since it has auto-playing videos.
  #189  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:02 PM
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Brett McGurk, former diplomat:
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Turkish state-backed media hails a “successful operation” to “neutralize” an unarmed 35-year old woman working to unite Arabs, Christians, and Kurds in NE Syria. Ms. Hevrin Khalef was reportedly dragged from a vehicle and shot to death. That’s a war crime. https://twitter.com/yenisafak/status...693477888?s=21
  #190  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:52 PM
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Kurdish politician, other civilians ‘executed’ by Turkey-backed group
https://www.timesofisrael.com/kurdis...ebels-monitor/
  #191  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:31 PM
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I don't believe that Erdogan would have ordered the offensive if the U.S. president had been firm in his support for the Kurds in the phone call. He could have said that the Kurds were the U.S.'s friends and there'd be severe consequences if they were attacked (e.g. sanctions or more). There don't appear to have been any punitive measures imposed on Turkey by the U.S. for their actions.
again, are we in the civil war business? Do we go into Turkey and attack them on behalf of the Kurds? Are we supporting a new country of Kurdistan carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq?
  #192  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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again, are we in the civil war business? Do we go into Turkey and attack them on behalf of the Kurds? Are we supporting a new country of Kurdistan carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq?
Too late for those questions.

The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real.
  #193  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:02 PM
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Too late for those questions.

The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real.
How is it too late for those questions? The answer to those questions are expected when you interfere in a civil war with US troops.
  #194  
Old 10-13-2019, 05:35 AM
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In the longer term, the real implications of this are a weakened US position in the Middle East. On one hand, we abandon a strategic ally in the fight against terrorism; on the other, the President demonstrates how easy it is to change US foreign policy with so much as blowing smoke up Trump's ass in one phone call. The real takeaway is that the US just looks really fucking unstable and weak right now, and that's something that's being watched not just in Ankara, but in Berlin, Moscow, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, and Pyongyang.
  #195  
Old 10-13-2019, 08:58 AM
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How is it too late for those questions? The answer to those questions are expected when you interfere in a civil war with US troops.
Because we already interfered. And then, after interfering, pulled them out, essentially taking the side of the oppressors.

Why do you ask questions where the answers are obvious?
  #196  
Old 10-13-2019, 10:16 AM
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Too late for those questions.

The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real.

Yeah, it’s so easy and fulfilling to suggest that other people’s sons die in a foreign land.
Who on earth are **you** to decide what happens to the territory of sovereign nations.
  #197  
Old 10-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Donald Trump: "The Kurds were our mutual allies in the fight against ISIS. They are off the table and to be protected as such"

Erdogan: "Aww, man, well...there goes that invasion I guess..."
No. It would be, well then if you are going to be protecting those who wish to see our country divided then I feel we have to rethink our whole alliance.

Goodbye to the secure southern flank of NATO, Russians are able to threaten the entire eastern Mediterranean.

The proper thing is to ask
1. Is there anyway that the Kurds can be supported without antagonising Turkey?
2. If the answer to 2 is “No”, then do the Kurds offer anything that would balance out the loss of Turkey as a partner?

That seems to have been done and the answer to both questions is of course “Hell no”.
  #198  
Old 10-13-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
The answer to an earlier question would have been to leave a thousand or so US troops in place which, in addition to preventing bloodshed if not genocide, would have also reassured allies both potential and real.
The best answer to this was given by General Powell (as he then was). There is no such thing as a “presence”. At best all it does is make all sides hate you. Worst you become target. Either you hi in with sufficient force to ensure your desired objectives can be met, or you get the fuck out.
  #199  
Old 10-13-2019, 10:37 AM
QuickSilver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
Jesus Tapdancing Christ With Flipping D Titties On A Fucking Pogo Stick...from your keyboard to my ears...well, eyes, I mean...you know...

And also, in other words, we would have NEVER done this under ANY other President. He needs to backtrack that shit immediately. Authorize "black" airstrikes, troop insertions, WHATEVER. DO SOMETHING. YOU ARE ABANDONING THEM TO DIE. You also owe them favors.
Consider switching to decaf.
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  #200  
Old 10-13-2019, 11:07 AM
Ravenman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
again, are we in the civil war business?
What civil war? Turkey invaded another country.
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