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Old 10-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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2020 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominations


The 2020 RnR HoF nominations are in: https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...142002957.html
  • Pat Benatar
  • Dave Matthews Band
  • Depeche Mode
  • The Doobie Brothers
  • Whitney Houston
  • Judas Priest
  • Kraftwerk
  • MC5
  • Motörhead
  • Nine Inch Nails
  • The Notorious B.I.G.
  • Rufus featuring Chaka Khan
  • Todd Rundgren
  • Soundgarden
  • T. Rex
  • Thin Lizzy

Of these, I think Pat Benatar, The Doobie Brothers, and Todd Rundgren would be my top picks, but a strong case can be made for several of the others (MC5, Kraftwerk, T. Rex), IMO.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:58 PM
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Whitney Houston.

Seriously??
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:02 PM
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Judas Priest
MC5
Motörhead
T. Rex
Thin Lizzy
Even though Lemmy said he didn't care to join. He sarcastically quipped that the most prominent display there was the gift shop.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:23 PM
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Thin Lizzy
I like them, even owned a few of their albums, but HoF? I can't see it. How influential or groundbreaking were they?
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:33 PM
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How much of The Hall has Weird Al parodied?
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:36 PM
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Not a very strong list. It would not be a major oversight if none got in.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:49 PM
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Oops, I messed up. Will try again...

Last edited by bobot; 10-15-2019 at 03:52 PM. Reason: oops
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:55 PM
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Looks like the Mortorhead nomination is specifically for the Fast Eddie/Philthy lineup. (That sentence makes sense to Motorhead fans.)
"Following the departure of Eddie Clarke in 1982, after six years of service, Motorhead recruited Brian Robertson before eventually landing Phil Campbell in 1984. Campbell remained Motorhead’s guitarist until the death of Lemmy Kilmister in 2015, giving Campbell a 31-year career with the band and cementing him as Motorhead’s second-most longstanding member after Lemmy.
Campbell performed on Motorhead classics such as “Killed by Death,” “Orgasmatron” and “Hellraiser,” with the guitarist’s accolades including a Grammy Award for his performance on “Whiplash.”
Mikkey Dee also won the Grammy for “Whiplash,” and as the drummer for Motorhead since 1992, Dee is the third-most longstanding member of Motorhead’s history, having served 23 years behind the kit."
https://loudwire.com/phil-campbell-m...ll-nomination/
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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Interestingly, Brian Robertson was known at the time for his work with Thin Lizzy.
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:03 PM
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Not a very strong list. It would not be a major oversight if none got in.
I think it's theoretically possible for none to get in (other than any other inductees named by special committees) -- as I understand the rules, the top five vote-getters in the Performers category (which is what this annual nomination list represents) are inducted, but there also appears to be a rule that those performers *also* have to be named on at least 50% of the ballots. So, if no one hit that 50% threshhold, no one would be inducted.

The list contains several bands who have been nominated repeatedly, and who are regularly cited as being important and influential, even if they never made much of an impact on the US charts, like Kraftwerk and MC5; I suppose that those groups have a better chance to get in when the rest of the nomination list seems to consist of acts that belong in the Hall of Very Good.

Don't get me wrong, I love Pat Benatar, Depeche Mode, and Todd Rundgren, and while I was never much of a Motorhead fan, I think Lemmy was an extremely interesting dude - but I'm not sure that any of them should be in the Hall (though I could make a case for the Doobie Brothers). But...Dave Matthews Band?

Last edited by kenobi 65; 10-15-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:34 PM
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Whitney and Biggie are definites. Hopefully Pat Benatar. Soundgarden will get the sympathy vote. Wouldn't be surprised to see Rufus/Chaka Khan get in. All the others are maybes, but Priest deserves to get in. Maybe they'll get the fan vote. Still no "Weird" Al... 🤨
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:03 PM
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I had to look up who MC5 was.
I'm sure Pat Benetar and Doobie Brothers are shoe-ins.

It so happens I saw them both at the same concert!
Rocklahoma, on Sep. 6th, 1980!
Sammy Hagar, Pat Benetar, Van Halen and The Doobie Brothers!
It was glorious 1980s fun.
http://www.vhnd.com/2014/09/06/van-h...oklahoma-1980/
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:05 PM
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I like them, even owned a few of their albums, but HoF? I can't see it. How influential or groundbreaking were they?
They were pioneers of the twin lead guitar thing. Pretty much any metal band followed suit. Shit, I'd put Thin Lizzy in there just for Cowboy Song.

Last edited by bobot; 10-15-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:08 PM
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NiN is the only one that really grabs me.
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:21 PM
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Why isn't Jethro Tull on the list?
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:41 PM
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Why isn't Jethro Tull on the list?
As far as I can tell, Tull has never even made it to the list of nominees. There had traditionally been a perception (which I held) that the Hall had a bias against progressive rock bands, and that Jann Wenner's personal dislike for prog rock was a factor in that. But, in the past decade, we've seen Yes, Rush, Genesis, Electric Light Orchestra, and the Moody Blues make it in, so I think that the anti-prog perception isn't valid any more.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Tull hasn't even gotten a nomination. They were successful and reasonably popular for a long time, which is *typically* enough to at least get nominated once. One factor that is definitely weighed in the evaluation of performers for induction into the Hall is their enduring influence on later musicians (which is why you see some influential bands in there that weren't around for very long at all); I don't know if Tull was seen as being particularly influential (maybe they were; I like Tull, own several albums, but I'm not hugely knowledgeable on them).

Last edited by kenobi 65; 10-15-2019 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:02 PM
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Not a very strong list. It would not be a major oversight if none got in.
I could maybe make a case for an oversight if the Doobie Brothers fail. Beyond that, I concur.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:58 PM
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Why isn't Jethro Tull on the list?
With a nod to post #16, probably for the same reason why King Crimson isn't on it either.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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is it me or is their lists finally leaving the 60's and 70's i mean only 4 or 5 are before 1980......and of those the 80s were when they became popular ....

i think lemmys feelings on the subject is why they waited so long for motorhead .....
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:50 PM
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As far as I can tell, Tull has never even made it to the list of nominees. There had traditionally been a perception (which I held) that the Hall had a bias against progressive rock bands, and that Jann Wenner's personal dislike for prog rock was a factor in that. But, in the past decade, we've seen Yes, Rush, Genesis, Electric Light Orchestra, and the Moody Blues make it in, so I think that the anti-prog perception isn't valid any more.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Tull hasn't even gotten a nomination. They were successful and reasonably popular for a long time, which is *typically* enough to at least get nominated once. One factor that is definitely weighed in the evaluation of performers for induction into the Hall is their enduring influence on later musicians (which is why you see some influential bands in there that weren't around for very long at all); I don't know if Tull was seen as being particularly influential (maybe they were; I like Tull, own several albums, but I'm not hugely knowledgeable on them).
Tull made the nomination list last year. In last year's RnR Hall nominees thread, there were a few comments on who besides Ian Anderson would get inducted.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:47 PM
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Tull made the nomination list last year. In last year's RnR Hall nominees thread, there were a few comments on who besides Ian Anderson would get inducted.
I stand corrected, and I plead bad information. The Wikipedia article on RRHOF inductees includes a list of those who have been nominated at least once, but not selected, and Tull is missing from that list.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Dave Fuckin' Matthews?

Todd isn't in already???
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:02 PM
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Still no Color Me Badd? My Hall boycott continues.
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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is it me or is their lists finally leaving the 60's and 70's i mean only 4 or 5 are before 1980......and of those the 80s were when they became popular ....
No, it's not just you.

At this point, while there are still a few performers from the 1960s and 1970s who aren't in the Hall, and who have arguable cases to be included (see the mentions above on Jethro Tull and Todd Rundgren), I think it's pretty safe to say that most of the performers from that era who are generally believed to be Hall-worthy are already in.

I do think it's likely that a few more from those decades will make it in, in the years to come, and at least some of those may get in through the special committees, rather than the general ballot. Nile Rodgers is probably an example here -- his band Chic has been nominated repeatedly, but is still on the outside; at this point, I think it more likely that Rodgers gets in by himself, and as a producer as much as a performer.
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:54 PM
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Dave Fuckin' Matthews?
I agree, and hope that the selection committee doesn't bend to the will of 1990s-era frat boys.
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Old 10-16-2019, 06:45 PM
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while there are still a few performers from the 1960s and 1970s who aren't in the Hall, and who have arguable cases to be included (see the mentions above on Jethro Tull and Todd Rundgren), I think it's pretty safe to say that most of the performers from that era who are generally believed to be Hall-worthy are already in.
Johnny Rivers, though.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:51 PM
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I have a soft spot for Pat Benatar, but that's a purely sentimental selection. None are HOF material.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:53 PM
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:00 PM
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Whitney Houston.

Seriously??
That's why it's called the Pop Hall of Fame.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:24 PM
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I think we're really getting down to seeds and stems at this point. The overall list of members is so watered down it's hardly much of an honor to be inducted.

That said, the fact that Jethro Tull is not in is an outrageous oversight.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:33 PM
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I think we're really getting down to seeds and stems at this point. The overall list of members is so watered down it's hardly much of an honor to be inducted.

That said, the fact that Jethro Tull is not in is an outrageous oversight.
Tull should definitely be in.

What started off as a great idea has turned into a cluster fuck of anyone who sold a bunch of records over a period of time.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:38 PM
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The only true no brainer here is Motörhead. If you were only going to have ONE metal band in the hall, it should be Motörhead. OTOH, if Thin Lizzy is in the conversation, you’ve already got too many. Once Motörhead are in, Priest can be next in line.

Hard to keep Kraftwerk out if you’re letting any other synth band in. Once they’re in, I guess Depeche Mode become acceptable. MC5 were hella “influential” but obscure and honestly not all that good.

Is Whitney Houston “rock”? If so, she’s obviously in, but it’s a debatable proposition to say the least.

Hard no on the Doobies. All the worthwhile bands of the classic era are already in. Let last year’s selection of the Zombies remain the bottom of the barrel from that group.

Pat Benatar was a fairly major figure in 80s rock. Her induction wouldn’t lower the standards.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:43 PM
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I had to look up who MC5 was.
IMO, the MC5 are the most deserving band on the list.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:57 PM
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IMO, the MC5 are the most deserving band on the list.
I'm another one who doesn't know who they are.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:25 PM
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Dave Fuckin' Matthews?
I think SiriusXM is the only thing still playing Dave Fucking Matthews. He must own the company.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:32 PM
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I'm another one who doesn't know who they are.
MC5 were a hard rock / garage rock band in the late 1960s, from Detroit. They weren't around for very long (only three albums during their original run), and weren't particularly commercially successful, but they're seen as being a big influence for what later became punk rock. (TBH, I had never heard of them, either, until the past few years, when they started showing up on the RRHOF nomination ballot.)

Last edited by kenobi 65; 10-16-2019 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:39 PM
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The only true no brainer here is Motörhead. If you were only going to have ONE metal band in the hall, it should be Motörhead. OTOH, if Thin Lizzy is in the conversation, you’ve already got too many. Once Motörhead are in, Priest can be next in line.

Hard to keep Kraftwerk out if you’re letting any other synth band in. Once they’re in, I guess Depeche Mode become acceptable. MC5 were hella “influential” but obscure and honestly not all that good.

Is Whitney Houston “rock”? If so, she’s obviously in, but it’s a debatable proposition to say the least.

Hard no on the Doobies. All the worthwhile bands of the classic era are already in. Let last year’s selection of the Zombies remain the bottom of the barrel from that group.

Pat Benatar was a fairly major figure in 80s rock. Her induction wouldn’t lower the standards.
I agree with all of this except the Zombies comment. They are probably my third favorite 60s band behind the Beatles and the Kinks and deserve to be more recognized and respected.
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Old 10-17-2019, 06:10 AM
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A number of these artists have a case as important pioneers or huge early stars in their genre or niche:
  • Pat Benatar as a female rocker
  • Kraftwerk – electronica
  • Biggie – rap
  • MC5 – punk
  • Depeche Mode – synth pop
  • Soundgarden – grunge
If you ask young female pop singers today who were their heroes and influences, the same three names come up over and over again: Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, and Whitney Houston. You can dismiss all of them by dissing the genre, but that would be as dumb as dismissing, say, prog rock or hip hop. Whitney would’ve been better served artistically if she’d gone in a more Aretha Franklin direction. But she wanted to get mega-rich, so she stuck with syrupy, mainstream pop. That’s on her as an artist, but no one can credibly deny her vocal talent or her influence on the industry.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:13 AM
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I'm another one who doesn't know who they are.
"Kick out the Jams" is one of the best live albums ever recorded, and their sound was one of the building blocks of what would come to be known as punk. To put it one way, they were alternative before there was anything to be the alternative to, and they easily belong in the HOF by virtue of how many bands were influenced by their sound.

Here's the title track (explicit lyrics).

Last edited by Smapti; 10-17-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:33 AM
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I hated MC5 when they arrived on the scene. I still don't care for their sound. That said, it is obvious that they were highly influential (as noted above) and for that reason alone they deserve consideration.

Jethro Tull not being in is a travesty.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:47 AM
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Personally, I'd want Depeche Mode, T. Rex, Kraftwerk and NiN, in terms of them all being both music I like and very influential on other music I like.

I can see MC5 - while I don't like their music, they were a big influence on music that I do like a lot.

But c'mon, the fucking Dave Matthews Band? Fuck that noise.
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Old 10-17-2019, 10:28 AM
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I could maybe make a case for an oversight if the Doobie Brothers fail. Beyond that, I concur.
Same here
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Old 10-17-2019, 10:59 AM
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Musically, MC5 were more of an influence on what would become metal than on what would become punk. However, they were notable among rock groups of the time for being very outspoken with their radical leftist politics. In that way they can be seen as major influences on the underground/hardcore punk movement.

But then the HOF seems determined to erase that movement from the historical record, presumably because their labels weren't buying ads in Rolling Stone. No Crass, Dead Kennedys or Black Flag? Apparently punk just ceased to exist for twenty years between the Sex Pistols and Green Day.

You could plausibly argue that, by definition, those bands don't belong in the Hall of Fame, because they were never famous outside a relatively tiny subculture. But they certainly sold more records and directly influenced more bands than the MC5, so other than blatant bias in favor of bands on corporate major labels, I can't see any reason why MC5 gets nominated and they don't.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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OTOH, John Sinclair was a legit political prisoner whose politics earned him a 20 year prison sentence for possession of a joint. I'm not sure how that "achievement" should be taken into account in an HoF discussion, but certainly he deserves some sort of honor for that sacrifice.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:12 AM
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So, based on a quick google search, there appear to be no meaningful guidelines whatsoever on how Hall of Fame candidates should be evaluated, so that whether someone "belongs" can only be determined by comparing them to other candidates who are in, or out. Am I correct there?
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:14 AM
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For well on 40 years, I have never, ever understood the appeal or respect given to Pat Benatar.

First, her music is pedestrian and boring. I completely understand that is completely a matter of taste, but it is certainly more pop than rock, and I simply dislike it.

Second, here's her 4 big hits:

Hit Me with your Best Shot - written by Eddie Schwartz.
Love is a Battlefield - Holly Knight and Mike Chapman.
We Belong - Eric Lowen and Dan Navarro.
Invincible - Holly Knight and Simon Climie.

Not writing her own music is a huge negative to me.

Third, it seems to me she's mostly nominated because she was female. I have no problem celebrating females who succeed, and inclusion is important, but does anyone really think if she was a male that she'd be anywhere near the Hall of Fame? Or that if she wasn't at the time of MTV exploding, she'd be even remembered?

After Aretha, Janis, Joni, the Motown groups, Patti, and the rest of the females in the Hall of Fame, they're really scraping if they have to reach for Pat Benatar. Maybe Linda Rondstadt, Kim Carnes, and Lita Ford are on deck.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:20 AM
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Well, yeah, case in point. Should not writing your own songs count against you? I tend to think not, but either perspective is equally valid, and they lead to radically different opinions on who deserves to be enshrined.

I would never choose to sit around listening to Pat Benatar of my own accord, but on those occasions in the 80s when I was stuck listening to commercial rock radio, those songs were a relative breath of fresh air in the miasma of Loverboy and Def Leppard.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:31 AM
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Well, yeah, case in point. Should not writing your own songs count against you?
For the Hall of Fame? Yes. Yes it should.

There are certainly performers who can overcome not writing their own music. Elvis. Madonna. Diana Ross. But outside of maybe her "release the prostitutes!" videos, is there anything that wow's you about Benatar? I fully admit to not seeing her, ever, in concert, so maybe she's an amazing performer, but I'm not seeing it at all.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:44 AM
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There is a Youtube reviewer guy called Rap Rat Trapped (Look him up, he's OK in my book) who reviewed Pat Benetar's Hell Is For Children video and he ended up not being able to stifle his laughter. He wasn't trying to be a jerk, but the way she was shouting the title made him think: what if she's saying they deserve to be there? It was amusing to watch.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Hard to take any such organisation seriously when Kraftwerk were not inducted decades ago.
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