#101  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Here's the magical EV that people need if they are going to make the switch:

- 1500km/900 mile range minimum
- Full charge in 10 minutes or less
- Inexpensive chargers located at home or on every block
- Can tow 15,000 pound Recreational Vehicle
- Can park in a small parking space
- Is able to haul 2000 pounds of hay
- Can operate as a self contained working van for plumbing contractor
- Costs under $10,000

This is the magic EV that would please everyone.

Or, alternatively, we could get away from the idea that one single vehicle type will please everyone.
nobody said they had to be a one size fits all.

You started a thread to bitch about an issue that doesn't exist.
  #102  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:49 PM
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Your OP comes off as rather sanctimonous.
Funny how being irritated with blatantly false propaganda is "sanctimonious."

There is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don't know if it's being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it's widespread.

I've found that even minimal exposure to EVs--whether in the form of using PHEVs as a "starter EV", or explaining away the misapprehensions in person, or just giving them a ride in my Tesla--is enough to "convert" most people. They've had years of exposure to anti-EV propaganda, and with the illusion that EVs are just crappy gold carts, so it's not a surprise that most would be hesitant. But EVs are such an improvement that the doubts fall away as soon as they learn a bit more.
  #103  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:56 PM
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nobody said they had to be a one size fits all.

You started a thread to bitch about an issue that doesn't exist.
The issue may not exist with people HERE ON THE SDMB.

But it does exist in the actual world. Please see post 13 for an actual example of what pisses me off. This is the kind of crap I see regularly; lie upon lie upon lie about EV's
  #104  
Old 10-27-2019, 09:03 PM
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Your math is off. 240V is shorthand for twice the voltage and a significantly increased amperage.

Sometimes a standard 120V outlet is all that's easily available. They can support about 12 amps of continuous load. For a Model 3, that provides 4-5 miles of range per hour of charging, so maybe 40 miles overnight.

If you have a dryer outlet, you can do 240V at 24 amps. That's 4 times the charge rate, and gives an efficiency boost, so you end up with 20-22 miles per hour, or 200+ overnight.

And if you really need it, you can get a hard-wired installation that will charge at 48 amps. That's 44 miles per hour, which means you can complete a 100% charge in under 8 hours.

I don't know what the Rivian will support as far as charging goes, but there's no reason they can't match the Model 3 in charge rate. They'll probably end up with a lower miles/hour, because being a big truck the overall efficiency is lower. But I'd be surprised if they can't charge at 30 miles/hour with a beefy home charger system.
Thanks for that. I've been planning on a 50 amp outlet in my garage when the time comes but I didn't feel like re doing the changing math so I kept it a 15 amp and just doubled the voltage. Its good to know I'll be able to charge over night. Though we have talked about needing to steal power from my parents or in-laws since visiting them is a greater than 200 mile drive. Needing a 10 hour stop over to leave with a full tank is still worrisome but not impossible.
  #105  
Old 10-27-2019, 09:16 PM
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Thanks for that.
Sure thing. The amps really makes a huge difference here: it multiplies with the voltage boost and gives an efficiency boost as well. So even a basic dryer outlet is a huge (~5X) increase. Definitely worth it if you can install it on the cheap at your family's places. I have an outlet in my dad's shop he uses for a big arc welder; so far I haven't needed it but it's there if required. The Tesla Mobile Charger will handle up to 32 amps with a beefy outlet.
  #106  
Old 10-27-2019, 10:12 PM
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What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you're illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building?

What percentage can charge more than one?
  #107  
Old 10-27-2019, 10:33 PM
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What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you're illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building?

What percentage can charge more than one?
Iíve been to, oh, maybe a dozen hotels while driving an EV. Iíd say roughly half had a 110 outlet somewhere that I could plug into. If you look in parking garages you sometimes find them in convenient places. One hotel had a regular blacktop parking lot, but a plug on each of the streetlights. Another had outdoor outlets apparently for use by landscapers/maintenance crew so if you parked next to the building you could make a 10í charging cable just make it to the car.
  #108  
Old 10-27-2019, 10:49 PM
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What percentage of hotels can charge an EV with something more than an extension cord on a regular outlet while you're illegally parked in a fire lane next to the building?
Ballpark? If this site is to be believed, around 7% with dedicated charging.

That's likely diluted by an immense number of places outside the US, as well as small motels that one probably wouldn't expect chargers at. Bigger names like Hilton are probably >50%.

Tesla has their "destination charging" program that puts L2 chargers (will complete a full charge overnight) at lots of places around the country. They have an easy to search map that will find places along your route.

Obviously it's not quite at the level where it would be surprising not to have EV charging (as contrasted with, say, WiFi), but I think we'll be there in not too many years. Chargers aren't that expensive or difficult to install.
  #109  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:13 PM
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The thing is, an EV doesn't have to work for everyone. Even if market penetration was low, like 5% or even 10%, that would be huge. And even with the folks for whom an EV doesn't work for, my guess is that the % of people for whom an EV would work really well for is much greater than 10%.
  #110  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:28 PM
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I'd be cool with that, as long as gasoline users pay their share of the health and environmental costs they impose on the public.
Is that really a fair calculus?
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Old 10-27-2019, 11:36 PM
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The issue may not exist with people HERE ON THE SDMB.

But it does exist in the actual world. Please see post 13 for an actual example of what pisses me off. This is the kind of crap I see regularly; lie upon lie upon lie about EV's
OK.... well.... so?

Is it affecting EV sales? No.

Is it stopping battery research? No.

The entire planet is driving hard to the hoop to develop the technologies needed for an EV world and it's not to save the whales. It's because there's a huge need for better batteries for cars, phones, power tools etc...

ICE vehicles are dead when batteries improve. There isn't going to be any adjustment or convincing of anyone. It will be a stampede. There isn't anyone's opinion that will delay this process one nanosecond.
  #112  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:41 PM
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"Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...o-100-mph.html
And now the karmic Al Gore circle is complete.
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  #113  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:47 PM
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Is that really a fair calculus?
Sure, as long as fossil fuel power plants also pay their relative share (and therefore the costs would be built into the price of electricity for EV users).

That said, making CO2 emitters pay for their full costs would probably wreck the world economy in a way that's actually counterproductive. The cost of climate change is immense and will get worse. And of course there's something to the fact that past emitters of CO2 got a free ride up until now.

So I don't actually support making CO2 emitters pay their full externality costs. However, I equally don't support going out of our way to discourage EV use, since that's going to be a key pillar in avoiding the worst effects of climate change. That would be an unbelievably stupid move.

Charging even a small fraction of the externality cost, and using that money to subsidize clean energy systems, is the right approach. It minimizes disruption to the economy (which we need to actually produce the machines we will use to move to clean energy), while getting at least a little closer to the actual balance of costs they impose on the public.

Of course, some idiots will scream "but the free market!" at these subsidies, even though there's nothing market-based about imposing your costs on someone else. If your neighbor dumped his trash on your property instead of paying for garbage removal and then yelled about the free market as an excuse, you'd think he was a fucking moron. The same principle applies here.

Unfortunately it's too late to avoid all the costs of climate change, but if we don't intentionally sabotage our best tools for reducing CO2 emissions, there's a chance at avoiding the worst effects.
  #114  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:06 AM
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FThere is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don't know if it's being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it's widespread.
Part of it is something we've kinda danced around in this thread: Culture War, in specific the rural types being annoyed that people are once again reminding them that most people in this country are urban, and that that has certain consequences for public infrastructure and policy decisions.

Map urban voters to a political party and rural voters to a political party and you have the rest of your answer.
  #115  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:30 AM
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There is an unbelievable amount of misinformation out there. I don't know if it's being produced by paid astroturfers or ignorant individuals, but it's widespread.
and here comes the "EV skeptics are just paid shills or anti-Elon shorts."
  #116  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:12 AM
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and here comes the "EV skeptics are just paid shills or anti-Elon shorts."
Naw; the anti-Tesla shorts have a different and easily recognizable style. They mostly post dumbass conspiracy theories on Twitter (read this thread if you want a typical example--the guy lost his life savings after the big uptick last quarter and still can't admit his error). They tag everything with #TSLAQ.

I think Derleth is probably right about this being a "culture war" thing. There's a certain category of people for whom it's very important to their identity that EVs suck, and are willing to spread nonsense at every turn. I have one in the family that fits this pattern.
  #117  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:13 AM
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Naw; the anti-Tesla shorts have a different and easily recognizable style. They mostly post dumbass conspiracy theories on Twitter
I'm not part of any conspiracy but I confess I'm not fully convinced on Tesla's ability to thrive in a marketplace where the established manufacturers are supplying an equivalent product.

VAG are already touting the base ID's under £30k and such as the Audi E-tron are already much cheaper than the equivalent Tesla. Here's a review that suggests the Audi is already the better car and If I had that money to drop It'd be a no-brainer.

Where Tesla does score is the infrastructure, I think VAG etc. know this full well and if they tackle that in parallel then I see Tesla reverting to a niche vehicle manufacturer but certainly with the potential to be a major player in infrastructure supply and energy management.
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  #118  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:08 AM
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You forgot one: "EVs still generate emissions because the power to charge them is generated by burning fossil fuels." EVs are way more efficient than ICE powered cars, so even if 100% of your power came from coal you'd be generating fewer emissions than a gas powered car. And really no one's electricity is 100% from coal, and we're moving towards more cleaner power sources every day.
I went to a presentation by an energy expert at Harvard once, and someone asked this question. He said that there are parts of China where an electric vehicle will be powered by dirty coal plants and actually produce more pollution than a modern efficient gas vehicle. But he said that in all of the US, the EV will be cleaner, and in much of the US it will be dramatically cleaner.

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...I will ask though... in your personal situation, how often do you make a drive in excess of 500+ miles? Some people do so very regularly, and this may make an EV impractical for them....
I think you are underestimating the value of having a vehicle in your garage that meets your needs.

I have a midsized sedan and a C-Max energi hybrid electric. In many ways I love the C-max. And of course a plug-in hybrid has no range issues -- it drives great on gas, and one tank is good for about 400 miles.

But I'm currently frustrated because I don't have a vehicle large enough to haul the stuff and people I need to haul twice a year.The sedan's trunk doesn't contain some large items, and the C-Max has this giant battery where the storage space should be.

We've taken both cars sometimes. Because that's easier than renting a large one for those two trips. Because we always have a time crunch as we prepare to go, and renting is a PITA and takes a chunk of time when that time is really valuable.

So it drives me nuts when people dismiss range concerns saying "how often do you need that?"

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A plug-in hybrid would be great for many. Benefit of running on full electric for frequent short trips, and have the flexibility of gas for infrequent longer trips.

A RAV-4 plug in hybrid is said to be coming soon.
Woo hoo! That might be my next car, then. I seriously considered the hybrid, but I really don't want to give up being able to mostly drive on electricity. It's lovely to almost never need to buy gas, I believe it does produce fewer emissions (my electricity is mostly hydro) the car gives me access to a valuable urban parking space.

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...And I wonder about people who buy a PHEV and then brag about how long they've gone without using the gas engine. Yes, that does happen. Why are they lugging around this heavy ICE that they don't use?
see above. It's really nice to only need to buy a tank of gas every month or two, but it's also really nice to be able to leave for a long trip with no extra planning other than filling the tank somewhere en route.
  #119  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:29 AM
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Has anyone ever calculated the winter range of a fully charged Tesla in the Midwest vs. So. Cal.?
The site i linked to before (abetterrouteplanner) allows you to input outside temperature - you can play with this number and see the effect on charge times or routing, if you just want to get a ballpark idea.

For instance, the Minneapolis, MN -> Sioux Falls trip you specified can be comfortably done without stopping in a long-range model 3 for at least half the year, but once temperatures start creeping below ~40F, it starts requiring a partial charge at the 24/7 Worthington, MN supercharger.
  #120  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:04 AM
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So it drives me nuts when people dismiss range concerns saying "how often do you need that?"
Often, I think people with range concerns only focus on the downsides of EV charge times, and fail to consider the potential upsides. I installed a 240V plug in my garage at a convenient location. It literally takes me less than 5 seconds of effort/wasted time to get a full "tank" for my EV at home, compared to 5+ minutes of time (diverting, parking, filling, paying) to fill up my previous gas vehicle at a station.

All those 5+ minute gas station stops add up. At once a week, that is more than 4 hours of time wasted every year. When your chief concern is dealing with a car rental once or twice a year to handle the 500mi trip to grandma's, or the "hassle" of tacking on a 45 minute EV pit stop after 280 miles of continuous driving (when chances are good you may have wanted to stop for lunch/dinner anyway), overall you may save time every year getting an EV. So the "how often do you need that?" is a perfectly legitimate question.
  #121  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:18 AM
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So the "how often do you need that?" is a perfectly legitimate question.
I agree. If I was frequently driving more than 200 miles a day, then an EV might not be for me. As it is, I can go to Vancouver, Canada, or Portland Oregon any day I want without a stop. I've gone on only one trip since I bought my car in June where I had to stop for a charge. (I was going to fly, but I wanted to test the infrastructure). It was quick and easy (there are several apps that give you all the information about chargers on your route, including if they are in use or having technical problems.)
  #122  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:12 PM
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When your chief concern is dealing with a car rental once or twice a year to handle the 500mi trip to grandma's.
Thing is though, the additional expense of having to hire that vehicle can easily wipe out any financial benefit from fuel savings.

Best estimate I can get is that an EV costs, at best, a third of the price per mile than does a ICE.

I currently spend about £1000 per year on fuel. In the best scenario I may be saving £600 a year. A two week hire for that European trip can wipe out that saving straight away and so I'm financially no better off and I still have the hassle of hiring a car, and one big enough to take 4 people and ski equipment. (actually the financials are even worse because 4000 of my yearly miles would still be done on fossil fuels in those hired cars)

Currently A single 5 minute top-up once every two weeks takes me 600 miles in my ICE car and it can swallow everything I throw at it and I can buy a brand new one for £20k. An equivalent capacity EV would be double the cost and have much less range and limit my ability to refuel.

I don't doubt that EV's will eventually satisfy all these conditions but not yet. It may mean that ultimately I have to change how I undertake those journeys but I'll continue to take the cheaper and easier option as long as possible.
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  #123  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:45 PM
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Often, I think people with range concerns only focus on the downsides of EV charge times, and fail to consider the potential upsides. I installed a 240V plug in my garage at a convenient location. It literally takes me less than 5 seconds of effort/wasted time to get a full "tank" for my EV at home, compared to 5+ minutes of time (diverting, parking, filling, paying) to fill up my previous gas vehicle at a station.

All those 5+ minute gas station stops add up. At once a week, that is more than 4 hours of time wasted every year. When your chief concern is dealing with a car rental once or twice a year to handle the 500mi trip to grandma's, or the "hassle" of tacking on a 45 minute EV pit stop after 280 miles of continuous driving (when chances are good you may have wanted to stop for lunch/dinner anyway), overall you may save time every year getting an EV. So the "how often do you need that?" is a perfectly legitimate question.
My point is that not all minutes are the same. Five minutes on the way home from work is nothing, even if you do it frequently. An hour when I'm frantically planning to get out of town is a big deal -- a big enough deal that we've driven both cars rather than do it, even though neither of us loves to drive.

But I think the largest problem with the EVs on the market right now is that the batteries wear out faster than other parts of cars. And they are VERY EXPENSIVE.

My C-max only gets 60% of the electric range it got when it was new. Because it also drives on gas, that's not a problem. But we do have a lot of trips that we used to complete on battery, where we now burn gas for the last mile. And old electric vehicles with dying batteries have poor resale value because of the cost of replacing the battery.
  #124  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:36 PM
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My point is that not all minutes are the same. Five minutes on the way home from work is nothing, even if you do it frequently
I dunno about you, but I've certainly had quite a lot of those "5 minute, nothing" gas stops occur right when I was already running late for a meeting.
  #125  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:48 PM
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But I think the largest problem with the EVs on the market right now is that the batteries wear out faster than other parts of cars. And they are VERY EXPENSIVE.

My C-max only gets 60% of the electric range it got when it was new. ...
Batteries are getting cheaper all the time, and car makers are learning how to make them last longer too. One simple method is to just oversize the battery so it never gets fully charged or fully discharged. I understand the Chevy Volt is an extreme example, it only uses the middle 2/3 of the battery capacity (16.5 kWh battery, 10.9 kWh usable). My 2013 Volt still has ~10 kWh usable charge.
  #126  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:56 PM
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I dunno about you, but I've certainly had quite a lot of those "5 minute, nothing" gas stops occur right when I was already running late for a meeting.
Hybrid electric for the win! I almost never need gas, and plugging my car in at night takes 5 seconds.
  #127  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:04 PM
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Multiquote isn't working for me, so assume these are directed at each and everyone of you, especially those just lurking.

Re: 5 minutes after work verses an hour on a trip. And I'm just the opposite. I'm often rushing to get home in time to take over child care so my spouse can leave in time for her evening activity. The last long road trip I took was in a gas car. A three hour drive would become a four hour drive, because it was impossible to have a stop that lasted less than 40 minutes. Between waiting on the bathroom, buying drinks, going back through the line to buy snacks, waiting on the bathroom a second time...

Re: Tesla competing with established automakers. It's been hashed through a few times on the old "Waiting for a Model 3" thread, but building a good EV is way harder than buying some third party components and slapping them into an existing chassis. Today, Tesla has a big lead, and they are not slowing down. If the majors are smart, they'll play to their strengths regarding luxury, build quality, and manufacturing efficiency. The Audi E-tron is probably a better luxury SUV than the Model X, but I don't think it is a better EV than the Model X. 10 years from now (maybe even 5), things could be much different. If the majors are serious about EVs, rather than just neglected compliance cars, then they should be able to reach parity with Tesla eventually. During that time Tesla is becoming established, though. How long was it from the Japanese car entry in the US market to go from quirky niche products to dominating the big three?

Re: Rentals. It's also necessary to factor into the cost of a rental car the savings in not putting the wear and tear on your own car. The 2019 IRS mileage deduction rate is $.58/mile. That's supposed to be inclusive of gas, but also maintenance and other costs related to car use. So the actual cost of the rental may not be $600, but maybe $400, after taking into account oil, tires, brakes, depreciation, etc.

Re: Trip planning. I guess there probably are people who just get in their car and turn left, because they feel like going to Las Vegas (that's to the left, correct?) without any planning, mapping, or other thought. Every road trip I've gone on I've done some planning for. I don't think about exactly which station I'm going to get gas at, but I know I'll need gas near Clayton, NM, are there any cool lunch spots nearby, or should I brown bag it? Which hotel is the optimum combination of cheapest, nicest, and has a pool (to entertain the kid) near Fruita? Adding "also has destination charging" complicates it a bit, but in some ways can make it easier, because now maybe I only have to pick from three places instead of nine.

Re: Range anxiety. I was talking to somebody who wants her next car to be an EV, but her partner has severe range anxiety, even in an ICE car---he always fills up at a half a tank. I reminded her that an EV is full every morning, if you bother to plug in.

Re: Cold weather. Just did a 20 mile drive where the average outside temperature was 23F, and the average temperature in the car was 71F. There was no range loss at all, and the car was operating at 101% efficiency (that means it used less power than base estimate). The reason for that is the average speed was 27MPH, and there was a 650 foot total elevation drop. Another important thing to remember is that heat in an EV may not be free (like in an ICE), but it is nearly instant. When I get in the cold soaked car after it's been siting outside all day, I turn the heat on, and it's blowing hot in a less than a minute. No freezing while waiting for the engine to warm up.
  #128  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:29 PM
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200-mile rated range realistically means you can count on it to make a 150-mile trip, maybe a bit less in winter. And it still takes additional time & planning to find a charger during a road trip, especially in politically conservative parts of the US.

I really wish GM did a better job of selling the plug-in hybrid concept. You do end up with a more complicated car, but it just makes life easier. My Chevy Volt only uses gas when we go out of town, and when we do, we never have to think about finding a charger.
Bolding mine. I just bet that when automobiles overtook the horse and buggy, those areas of the country were just as resistant as they are today re: electric cars.

And thank god they didn't have a huge horse PAC back then. We'd still not have cars.
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  #129  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:36 PM
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23F is not cold.

However, reports from Model 3 owners in my city (Saskatoon, SK) are that when it gets properly cold (-30ish) they're looking at 60-65% normal range. That makes the inconvenience factor on road trips even higher, perhaps prohibitive, but isn't going to make a difference if you're in a commuting plus a few errands situation. People tend to avoid road trips in extreme cold even in ICE vehicles anyways. Charging infrastructure here still really sucks, but it is getting better. My next car will quite likely be electric, as I don't plan to replace my current vehicle for 5 years or so and I expect the infrastructure will be much improved by then, and the initial price premium will be lower.
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Old 10-28-2019, 03:35 PM
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Cold batteries don't work as well as warm batteries. So electric cars are designed to warm the batteries when the temp is cold, because that turns out to be more efficient than using cold batteries. So, as long as you are within the normal operating conditions for the car (and -30F might not be) the cost for driving in cold weather is basically a small drain per minute, not a % hit to the car's efficiency.

So, cold matters if you have a little battery, like on my C-max, but it's really not a significant concern on an all-electric car with anything like decent range.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:09 PM
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Cold batteries don't work as well as warm batteries. So electric cars are designed to warm the batteries when the temp is cold, because that turns out to be more efficient than using cold batteries. So, as long as you are within the normal operating conditions for the car (and -30F might not be) the cost for driving in cold weather is basically a small drain per minute, not a % hit to the car's efficiency.
The heater on the Model 3 is something like 4300 watts, so running that thing at full blast uses lots of power. That kills efficiency on short trips, but range doesn't really matter if you're just doing a short trip. On longer trips, the car will eventually warm up, so the heater's draw will go way down. The worst cold weather related efficiency is in active snow storms, because the heater has to continuously run hard enough to keep windows from freezing, even though that might leave the cabin warmer than necessary for comfort.

The Model 3 does not have a dedicated battery heater, but the same coolant circulates through the motors, computers, and battery, so waste heat from the motors and computers will warm the battery, increasing cold efficiency on longer trips.

I remember reading an article in Automobile Magazine in the 80s by one of the columnists who lived in Alaska. I'm sure I'll get the temperatures wrong, but it was something like: The block heater is good until about -20F; below that you have to run the car for 30 minutes to get the oil up to temperature; below -40F you have to leave it running all the time, or the gas will gel; below -60F just turn it off, because the tires are frozen and too brittle to drive on. Search youtube for videos of Russian truck drivers using fire to thaw their diesels if you need to justify cleaning the garage before the temperatures drop. Anyway, the point of all that is that in extreme conditions, EV, gas, diesel, are all really difficult.

My feeling with the whole criticizing EV things, is that there are lots of reasons to criticize them, and lots of use cases where they aren't appropriate, so it is really frustrating when people come up with false reasons. I've put 12,000 miles on an EV in the last year. For my use case, which is probably similar to most white collar suburbanites, I think it is an excellent choice.
  #132  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:32 PM
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I've gone on only one trip since I bought my car in June where I had to stop for a charge. (I was going to fly, but I wanted to test the infrastructure). It was quick and easy (there are several apps that give you all the information about chargers on your route, including if they are in use or having technical problems.)
& how many chargers are there at a typical charging station? Most gas stations near me have at least eight pumps & frequently double that. I very rarely need to wait for a pump. I'd hate to pull up two minutes after you did & need to wait for you to charge & then me to charge as that would add a lot of time to my trip.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:39 PM
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My supermarket has two chargers. I've never seen a place with fewer. That's for regular EVs, not the Tesla, which has it's own thing.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:53 PM
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I was wondering about that; can non-Teslas use the Tesla superchargers? How many different types of chargers are there? Is it possible to carry an adapter to use another kind of charger?
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:55 PM
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& how many chargers are there at a typical charging station? Most gas stations near me have at least eight pumps & frequently double that. I very rarely need to wait for a pump. I'd hate to pull up two minutes after you did & need to wait for you to charge & then me to charge as that would add a lot of time to my trip.
I also have never seen less than two. Often as many as eight. For trips you need (want) Level 3 chargers. They're not used by people on a daily basis, like a gas station would be. I've never seen more than one other car, usually no one is there. That could change as EVs get more popular, but I expect the supply will keep up with the demand.


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Old 10-28-2019, 05:10 PM
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& how many chargers are there at a typical charging station? Most gas stations near me have at least eight pumps & frequently double that. I very rarely need to wait for a pump. I'd hate to pull up two minutes after you did & need to wait for you to charge & then me to charge as that would add a lot of time to my trip.
For Tesla, at least, most US stations in permit/construction phase now seem to have between 8 and 14 stalls, occasionally 20+
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Old 10-28-2019, 05:11 PM
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I was wondering about that; can non-Teslas use the Tesla superchargers? How many different types of chargers are there? Is it possible to carry an adapter to use another kind of charger?
Non-Teslas cannot use Tesla Superchargers or Destination chargers. Tesla has offered the use of Superchargers to other companies, with the caveat that they pay for their share of upkeep, but no one has taken them up on that.

The most common charger type is probably SAE J1772, which supports up to 20 kW charging. Tesla includes an adapter with every car. This isn't really fast enough for charging on the road but it's fine for overnight, at work, etc.

Another type is CHAdeMO. I don't think these are that common in the US, but there do appear to be several hundred at least. Tesla offers a CHAdeMO adapter for $450, which is a bit steep considering that Superchargers are much more common. It also only reaches 50 kW; better than J1772 but not close to Superchargers.

Finally, there's CCS. Tesla doesn't have an adapter yet, but there's one coming, and I anticipate it'll be much cheaper than the $450 for CHAdeMO. European Model 3s already have a CCS port natively instead of the proprietary Tesla port. The Tesla adapter supports 120 kW charging, which is almost as good as a Gen2 Supercharger (but half a Gen3 Supercharger).

I'm guessing that CCS will beat CHAdeMO to be the standard of choice. For a Tesla owner, having a J1772+CCS port in hand will give broad coverage now and in the future.
  #138  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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For Tesla, at least, most US stations in permit/construction phase now seem to have between 8 and 14 stalls, occasionally 20+
The biggest one I know about is in Kettleman City, CA (along I-5). 40 stalls, and a nice lounge area.
  #139  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:58 PM
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I used to use an electric delivery van as my daily commuter (supplied by boss). Totally loved it.
We had a 24 amp charger in the office, which would charge it to full in around 3 hours or so. We used to manage electric cars on this charger - co-operating to make sure everyone had enough range to get home.

The longest commute was a 60 km round trip, which is considered "long" for this area. My personal round trip was less than 20km.
One thing that I found - you got VERY used to (and comfortable with) a "remaining range" of less than you would with an ICE car (fuel light on, range of approx 100km would induce a hunt for a gas station, however on an electric I was very happy to take a car home with 40km of range)
I also took a LEAF home some days - and this far outperformed anything in a similar size category (small hatch) that I have ever driven before.
Around here we can also access free charging at supermarkets (24 amp chargers, so will add approx 20km of range per hour to a LEAF).
Here - snow is rare (once in two or three years thing), and most cars are front drive, mid size family cars (think Toyota Corolla).
As a family we have two cars - my wife could easily live with a LEAF like car with a range of around 200km.
We have a garage to charge it (normal here) in our house that is more than 60 years old.

There's a few things that I can easily imagine as electric cars become more common .
1. People building new houses will allow for convenient electric car charging on 16 / 24 / 32 amp circuits. When building NEW, the cost of this will be negligible (less than $1,000 out of $200,000+)
2. The vast majority of our power is emissions free (hydro)
3. I have an ICE car that is bigger so is used for family trips anyway - and I can imagine many families here are the same
4. With both an ICE and an electric car in the family - we would swap between the two at our convenience depending upon the trip and state of charge

Having used a full electric for some time - it is very very easy for me to imagine a future world (at least in my city) where 30-40% of the vehicle fleet is full electric. It's not a solution for everyone, however as knowledge and familarity improves, so will uptake. Which is then going to have the spin on effects on infrastructure and convenience making an electric car even more convenient for longer trips.

And in the final accounting - a 30% reduction in emissions is going to make a very big difference
  #140  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:05 PM
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Bolding mine. I just bet that when automobiles overtook the horse and buggy, those areas of the country were just as resistant as they are today re: electric cars
In my part of the country we STILL have horse-and-buggy drivers. To the point that there are a few Wal-Marts and other stores that accommodate them with covered tie-ups and watering troughs for the horses.

Yet we all manage to share the road and get around (well, the buggies aren't allowed on the freeway, but those folks aren't in a hurry anyway. If they are, they go by train or bus or hire a driver).

We have sedans and tiny cars and pickups and big trucks because different people have different needs, wants, and desires. As far as I can tell, EV's are just another option. They work well for some, not so much for others, and are getting better and more flexible as time goes by. Yay. Options are good.
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:50 PM
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Another type is CHAdeMO. I don't think these are that common in the US, but there do appear to be several hundred at least.
There are 3,200 CHAdeMO stations in North America (as of April 2019) and 25,300 worldwide. It's the standard for Japanese cars, which includes the popular Nissan Leaf. I see more CHAdeMOs than CCS stations along the I-5 corridor in the PacNW, and it's pretty easy to find multiple options. Japanese cars tend to be more popular on the West Coast, so I'm sure CHAdeMOs are more common here than elsewhere in the U.S.

As of August, there were actually more CHAdeMO than CCS stations in the U.S., although there were more CCS connectors. Meanwhile, Tesla has a lot fewer stations, but roughly double the connectors.

You're right that CSS is more likely to become the standard. Unfortunately, it's going to take some time. Too many groups have too much invested in their favorite. Given all the challenges getting people to buy into EVs, multiple standards is a pain in the ass we didn't need.
  #142  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:15 PM
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There are 3,200 CHAdeMO stations in North America (as of April 2019) and 25,300 worldwide. It's the standard for Japanese cars, which includes the popular Nissan Leaf. I see more CHAdeMOs than CCS stations along the I-5 corridor in the PacNW, and it's pretty easy to find multiple options.
Thanks for the correction. Makes sense that there would be a bunch of CHAdeMO stations for the Leaf.

It is a bit of a mess, but I guess it'll resolve in time. Tesla's proprietary standard is already going away in Europe and will likely disappear in NA in several years (for new cars).

For the moment, I predict that if you limit yourself to >100 kW connectors, Tesla looks even more dominant.
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:40 PM
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I must thank everyone for the quality of posts in this thread. Good sharing of information. Unsurprising, really, as this is the SDMB.

On some other areas of the internet (shudder), we would already have multiple comments about how electric vehicles give off radiation, or how battery components come from an open pit mine (complete with photo of open pit copper mine that has nothing to do with batteries).
  #144  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:01 PM
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Non-Teslas cannot use Tesla Superchargers or Destination chargers. Tesla has offered the use of Superchargers to other companies, with the caveat that they pay for their share of upkeep, but no one has taken them up on that.
.
There is an adapter that converts a Destination charger plug to work with a J1772 socket. I don’t have one, but there are number of folks on the Bolt EV forums that do and use them frequently. But yeah, not the Supercharger.

Last edited by Pork Rind; 10-28-2019 at 11:04 PM.
  #145  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:14 AM
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There is an adapter that converts a Destination charger plug to work with a J1772 socket. I donít have one, but there are number of folks on the Bolt EV forums that do and use them frequently. But yeah, not the Supercharger.
I'd heard about that a while back--it's a little ethically dubious, though not exactly the worst thing in the world. In any case, I should probably have put "officially" in my statement above.
  #146  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:49 AM
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A step (I hope) in the right direction. https://globalnews.ca/news/4976930/p...icle-stations/ I said this before that it totally makes sense to have charging stations at gas stations.

They already have the infrastructure and sufficient electrical capacity to run a few level 3 chargers.
Many already have restaurants and make more money at that than they do actually selling fuel.
E charging provides another revenue stream for station operators.

One other note is that no one's really mentioned the hit ICE vehicles also take during very cold temps between warming the car up, defrosting the windows, and all the other factors. The 40% hit to range applies to them as well.
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  #147  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:37 AM
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One other note is that no one's really mentioned the hit ICE vehicles also take during very cold temps between warming the car up, defrosting the windows, and all the other factors. The 40% hit to range applies to them as well.
I'm going to have to ask you for a cite on that, I'm not sure your figure is correct under real-world conditions. Having driven my ICE many thousands of miles in sub-zero and high temperatures with heating and air-con on all the time I don't think my range has been affected by 40% or anywhere near it. In fact I know it hasn't because the first fuel stop I use on the continent is over 400 miles from Calais and a 40% drop would mean I get nowhere near it. In reality I always have well over 100 mile range when I get there and that doesn't change noticeably winter or summer.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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Yeah, I was going to challenge that stat, too. I drive an ICE and a plug-in hybrid, and around freezing (which is typical winter weather where I live and drive) there is a distinct hit to the battery range, but no noticeable hit to the ICE range. Back when I used to meticulously track mileage per gallon, I did notice that we got slightly better mileage in the summer than in the winter, but it was on the order of 29 mpg vs. 31 mpg, whereas you are suggesting more like 19 mpg vs. 31 mpg.

My garage is partially heated (only fairly solid walls, no meaningful insulation between the house and the attached garage, so it rarely drops below freezing in the garage) and I never bother to "warm up" the car. I don't think you need to do that with modern cars until it gets WAY colder than my climate.
  #149  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:29 PM
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An ICE will take a hit in the winter when they add ethanol to the mix, but nothing like 40%.

I think there is one issue to tackle with EV that will catapult them into the mainstream. Range Anxiety. Solve range anxiety (at a comparable to ICE cost) and you've got it.

I figure a 500 mile range is the tipping point where a lot of people will conclude that it has 'enough' range for anything they realistically do. Not where it is good enough for 98% of their driving, but ALL their driving. Also not all of everyone's driving, just all of their own personal driving.

It requires a couple of infrastructure developments, though. Widespread, robust, home charging is first. Obviously this is an individual decision, but the power companies need the ability to support this use case. Anyone who uses their car a lot will need the capacity for a full 500 mile charge overnight, even if that's only 6-7 hours.

Second is destination charging. You go to a hotel, drive 450 miles to get there, you (and a lot of other guests) need to have charging at the hotel that will fill your car by the time you leave in the morning. Not "we have 20 chargers, pick any one that's not being used" you need to be guaranteed a charger for your stay. A hotel with 100 rooms needs something on the order of 100 maxed out level 2 charging stations. That's a lot of power, a couple of megawatts, on top of what the hotel itself needs, power that is all going to be used at the same time during every holiday weekend.
  #150  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:04 PM
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For me to have range anxiety I'd need the ability to drive 1,200 miles in 16 hours which is about how long it takes with Family breaks with an ICE. Back when I didn't have a family it was 14 hours. Having good charging at night for hotels would certainly help most people but I want to refuel and get back on the road so I need to get two or three full refills in one hour. 20 minutes to add 400 miles of range anywhere in the country would solve people issues with EVs more than hotel charging since they could just fill up over breakfast on their way out.
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