#251  
Old 10-30-2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Fine. 30 miles of range in 2 minutes. That’s my final offer.
Still cripplingly slow enough that rich future Ruken is going to fund research on beaming that shit straight into cars on the fly.

Like those microwave plants in Sim City. With fewer accidents, eventually.
  #252  
Old 10-30-2019, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
You may have just answered a question I've often wondered. My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all?
Yup, you're good to go.

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Now I have another concern. I have 200 amp service to my house. I just looked at my panel, and it's pretty full already - if I'm reading it correctly, I have a single 30 amp slot that isn't already dedicated. That means if I have to have a dedicated circuit I'm limited to a max of 30 amps (and a single slot means 120V, correct?) for a charger.

But a 120V charger seems to be hopelessly inadequate for anything other than topping off. If I have any hope of seriously recharging a low battery overnight, I need 240V and more than 30 amps, correct?

Does that mean I'd need to bridge off an already-dedicated circuit (the one for the electric oven seems to be the biggest, except for the AC)? So I can't use the oven and charge my car at the same time? Do I have to buy a gas oven if I want to have an electric car?

This getting more complicated by each post.
I have this problem. I don't have room on the panel to add an outlet for L2 -- I already hired the electrician and settled for L1, which is good enough for my plug-in hybrid, since it doesn't have a very large battery.

I have two possible solutions:
1) Run more power to the house. I could upgrade from 120amp to 200 amp service. That would be extremely expensive, as there's a gas line next to the existing power line, which is no longer to code, so I've have to cut a hole in a cement wall, run a new trench, and deal with the new power source in the house. I'm thinking about it, but probably won't.
2) swap out the power-hungry halogen lights I had installed in the dining room for LEDs, and move a bunch of wires around. I haven't yet approached an electrician about this option (which could be done by an electrician, without hiring a general contractor and a mason, like option (1)) but we had to grab a circuit to put those lights in, so if we took them out again, we could probably do it.

Both are non-trivial, although the latter is a lot cheaper, if I can do it.

I do have a gas oven and a gas drier, by the way. The power for the drier turned into power for the dining room.
  #253  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:12 AM
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The only point I’m trying to make is that with this new technology, many people have a hard time judging what they need because much of the concept of how you use a car is just fundamentally different, so they have a hard time judging what they actually need.

For example, your scenario of coming home late from a vacation and then needing 600 miles of range by 8 am the next morning. This is such an unrealistic scenario to me: someone comes home from vacation and then immediately needs to take a 10 hour road trip with no possibility of stops for fast charging? I just don’t believe this is a thing.
I definitely see how it is different adjusting your mind set to new technologies and judging what you need. I certainly have never come back from vacation and immediately driven 600 the next day though I do drive ~200 miles the day after vacation almost every time. I have a hard time wrapping my head around not having a full "tank" at the start of the day we an EV since that is one of the supposed benefits. Sure the 300 mile charge will do the job but we're back to range anxiety. Same on the front end. If I want to work all day, then drop my dogs with my parents then hit the road I start my road trip 200 miles in the hole and I don't have a ability to top off before we go since it would take all night.

5o get off talking about my very niche case and back to the topic of why people aren't quick to pick up EVs I think that asking for a mindset switch is a lot to ask for. Range anxiety certainly is a catch all term but it works as well for planning your drive around where you're going to fill up instead of the shortest or fastest route as it does for people who can't be below half a "tank" and must fill up. I think the solution is the same either more range or lots of fast fill ups or a combination of the two. As ws demonstrated you can do an 8 hour drive with current EVs by filling up every 3 hours for 15 minutes (there has got to be an east coast/west coast thing there since even LA to SF would have you mostly doing 80 on I5) . If there was that kind of station density and speed across the country I don't think range anxiety would be as much of a deterrent . If on the other hand the 8 hour drive could be done without stopping for fuel there would also be less range anxiety. Personally, I'd look to the ICE world where 400 miles between fill ups seems to be the sweet spot but 30 min fill ups seem really long.

Aside from range anxiety what do you guys think is the biggest factor holding EVs at 2% market share? Price? Something else?
  #254  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:23 AM
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.

Aside from range anxiety what do you guys think is the biggest factor holding EVs at 2% market share? Price? Something else?
Unless you want a Leaf or a Bolt, they could be hard to find. We waited 3 months to get our Prius Prime. My iPace isn’t available at a lot of dealers. You can’t buy a Tesla the “usual” way. Plus, the price. And the fact they’re not for everyone. If I lived in Montana, I wouldn’t get an EV.
  #255  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:41 AM
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Now I have another concern. I have 200 amp service to my house. I just looked at my panel, and it's pretty full already - if I'm reading it correctly, I have a single 30 amp slot that isn't already dedicated. That means if I have to have a dedicated circuit I'm limited to a max of 30 amps (and a single slot means 120V, correct?) for a charger.
If I understand what you're asking - you're adding up the ratings of all the breakers in your panel. You don't have to do that. The total current rating in your panel can exceed (by a lot) the service rating, because you're not drawing the max current on every circuit simultaneously. (Most of them will never draw the max current.)

So you should be able to easily add a 50-amp breaker as long as you have two free slots in the panel. (If you don't, you don't have to replace the whole panel. You can add a small subpanel instead, or potentially replace some single-slot breakers with tandem breakers.)
  #256  
Old 10-31-2019, 08:03 AM
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What do people with street parking do in Canada? I'd never thought about that. Is it not a thing there?
Canada's most populous city -- Toronto -- and its largest populated statistical reporting area -- the Greater Toronto Area -- doesn't have all of these plugs everywhere, because it's not typical for "Canada" as a whole, any more than it's typical for the "United States" as a whole because a few cold, northern states have outlets.

I've only lived in Toronto/GTA, so I can speak for other large, cold Canadian cities.
  #257  
Old 10-31-2019, 09:12 AM
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Yeah I guess most Canadians aren't all that far north.
I didn't drive around any neighborhoods when I was in Calgary, so I didn't get a look.
  #258  
Old 10-31-2019, 09:50 AM
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...If on the other hand the 8 hour drive could be done without stopping for fuel there would also be less range anxiety. Personally, I'd look to the ICE world where 400 miles between fill ups seems to be the sweet spot but 30 min fill ups seem really long...
I have never owned a car that could be driven 8 hours without stopping for fuel. And for that matter, I've never owned a butt that could sit for 8 hours without a break. I always get up and walk around on long airplane flights.

I think of 400 miles as a big tank for an ICE. That's longer than I ever want to drive in one sitting. Four hours is about my max bum-in-seat time.

I don't usually take a break when I fuel my ICE car, but that's because I usually top off at the start of my trip, and rarely drive more than 3 hours at a stretch. When I used to drive from Princeton, NJ to Boston, MA, which is theoretically a 4.5-5 hour drive, I always stopped for a meal, and it typically took up 6 hours. Because we had to stop for gas anyway, and sitting that long was really unpleasant.

YMMV
  #259  
Old 10-31-2019, 10:02 AM
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A 50 amp, 240 volt circuit for each charger will suit 99.9999% of scenarios for EV owners. I would bet that a 30 amp circuit would suit like 95 percent of charging use.
I fall squarely into the ‘average driver’. On a busy day, I drive about 30 to 40 miles. I get home, plug my car into a 110v outlet, and from 8pm to 6am I get that 40 miles right back.

I had intended to install a L2 charger when I got the car, but a little after the fact discovery showed that the unused 30 amp dryer circuit had actually been repurposed to run an AC unit. The outlet I meant to use was not actually live. And it turns out I’m fine with that. I don’t even actually charge every night.

On the rare occasions that I need more than my home setup can provide, I’ll just use one of the free or inexpensive L2 chargers in town and use that as an excuse for my wife and I to go out for dinner or something.
  #260  
Old 10-31-2019, 10:43 AM
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If we didn't need a super-easy-to-drive mid-seized sedan for our adult daughter, we would have a smallish gas SUV (Toyata RAV or similar) and a small electric car that was just large enough for four passengers on a short trip, or two people with groceries.
  #261  
Old 10-31-2019, 01:15 PM
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Oredigger, if you have a 240 V welding plug in the shop or garage you already have a level 2 charger. If not, it's a great excuse to get one put in if you haven't built it. How often would you have to charge both vehicles at the same time at full charge? Running a dual charger setup it is really going to be rare that both vehicles will be charging full bore anyway. Once they get to about 80% they slow down the charge rate, and at that point it would drive more current into the other vehicle with a smart charger setup. It's really not as big a deal as you think it is.
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  #262  
Old 10-31-2019, 01:55 PM
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Aside from range anxiety what do you guys think is the biggest factor holding EVs at 2% market share? Price? Something else?
A combination of price and energy density of Li-ion batteries. And the price is pretty much due to that of batteries. EVs actually take much less labor to manufacture, so the high price is due to the expensive materials that batteries are made of. If we could get a minor improvement in the energy density, say about 20%, and a similar decrease in the cost of battery materials, the market would explode.

Currently, no manufacturer is pushing sales of EVs, although VW will be doing so soon. Tesla doesn't have to push sales; they don't advertise in any of the usual ways and get by with essentially word-of-mouth advertising.1 Other manufacturers don't push them, but rather sell just enough to be compliant with California CAFE rules. In fact, Chevy actually sells the Bolt at below cost, but most Chevy dealers don't even try to sell them. The fact that dealers get most of their profits from maintainance and repairs is part of that; EVs require far less maintainance than ICEVs.


1 Tesla is limited by production, rather than orders. If they could make twice as many, they'd sell all of them.
  #263  
Old 10-31-2019, 02:10 PM
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... Even if you're the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop--well, who cares, that's only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal.
That would be a big deal to my Wife and I. Our last long road trip was 4000 miles. 12-14 hours of driving a day isn't unusual. Add a few hours to that IS a big deal.

For instance, going East and crossing a time zone really helps. Going west 'losing' that hour really, really sucks.

I'm not dissing EV's. Just pointing out that people are different. And there are plenty of people like my Wife and I.
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  #264  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:16 PM
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My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all?
Note that typical dryer outlets (NEMA 14-30) that you buy at home depot aren't designed for hundreds of connect/disconnect cycles. Normally this isn't really an issue because the EV charging cord is usually left plugged into the outlet most of the time, but in your case you'd be swapping every time you run a load of laundry.

Also, keep in mind that you're going to be plugging and unplugging an EV a lot - this may not be a big deal to you, but I certainly wouldn't want to have to drag & coil cables through the garage, and then walk back and forth plugging in both ends of the cable every time I get home from work, if I didn't have to. You may want to consider putting in an outlet immediately adjacent to the charge port on the car, just for convenience.
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Old 10-31-2019, 03:24 PM
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They keep talking about promoting EVs here but they are going to need to address some monumental obstacles to adoption. I keep hearing people talk about how easy it would be to make the switch but for most of the miles in this country there just isn't any infrastructure in place to support them. In my state most houses don't even have garages, even many that do are not wired. Most houses here would need major wiring work to even consider an EV. There just is nowhere to plug them in, much less install an charging station that allows for faster charges. The range is also an issue. You can only go, maybe 100 miles on even the best EVs and still be able to get home. We, here at least, have to consider half of the range as the full range because you are going to have to save half of the charge to get back home. I work in the capitol city of my state. I know of three charging stations in town. There are only 236 commercial charging units in the whole state. (So, 236 people could potentially make a road trip on any given day. The 237th gets to spend the night.) Nearly all of those are within a few miles of the biggest towns. So about 90% of the state is completely unserved.
I personally think EVs are great, but until someone figures out how to address the issue of both commercial and private charging infrastructure they will not make sense anywhere but very urban areas.
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  #266  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:51 PM
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I have never owned a car that could be driven 8 hours without stopping for fuel. And for that matter, I've never owned a butt that could sit for 8 hours without a break. I always get up and walk around on long airplane flights.

I think of 400 miles as a big tank for an ICE. That's longer than I ever want to drive in one sitting. Four hours is about my max bum-in-seat time.
An ICE car can be fueled at gas stations, which are ubiquitous, while an electric car needs a special charging station to fill up, or somewhere with an outside power line to charge overnight. All of the scenarios people come up with for long trips in ICE vehicles either assume things like 'hotels will let you charge in the parking lot' or 'there will be charging stations conveniently placed on your route', or require you to make a strict planned timetable of where you'll be driving and stopping in order to keep the car charged.

Also a lot of the 'daily use' scenarios include a sort of perfect, regimented life that a lot of people I know don't follow. What if you go to work with a 25 mile each way commute, then go out until late, forget to put the charger in when you get home, then want to visit a friend who lives 60 miles away where I'll be parked in a gravel lot with no charger, then come home after the weekend? It's not remotely a problem to do that sort of thing with an ICE car, but with an EV I would run into trouble.

If the price was equal, I would choose the car that does what I want it to do instead of the one I'd need to plan around. Since I would probably be paying double for an EV (there's not a strong used market and I wouldn't trust unwarrantied batteries so I'd require a newer EV than ICE), the choice is even easier. EVs will be great when there's a standard charging infrastructure, not sporadic stations run on competing standards and a distinct lack of charging in hotel and home lots, but all of the sneering from EV cheerleaders about how unreasonable people who are unimpressed by the significant limits of EVs isn't likely to convince anyone to purchase one.
  #267  
Old 10-31-2019, 04:12 PM
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An ICE car can be fueled at gas stations, which are ubiquitous, while an electric car needs a special charging station to fill up, or somewhere with an outside power line to charge overnight. All of the scenarios people come up with for long trips in ICE vehicles either assume things like 'hotels will let you charge in the parking lot' or 'there will be charging stations conveniently placed on your route', or require you to make a strict planned timetable of where you'll be driving and stopping in order to keep the car charged.

Also a lot of the 'daily use' scenarios include a sort of perfect, regimented life that a lot of people I know don't follow. What if you go to work with a 25 mile each way commute, then go out until late, forget to put the charger in when you get home, then want to visit a friend who lives 60 miles away where I'll be parked in a gravel lot with no charger, then come home after the weekend? It's not remotely a problem to do that sort of thing with an ICE car, but with an EV I would run into trouble.

If the price was equal, I would choose the car that does what I want it to do instead of the one I'd need to plan around. Since I would probably be paying double for an EV (there's not a strong used market and I wouldn't trust unwarrantied batteries so I'd require a newer EV than ICE), the choice is even easier. EVs will be great when there's a standard charging infrastructure, not sporadic stations run on competing standards and a distinct lack of charging in hotel and home lots, but all of the sneering from EV cheerleaders about how unreasonable people who are unimpressed by the significant limits of EVs isn't likely to convince anyone to purchase one.
Speaking only for myself, I don't want to sneer at anyone nor convince anyone to purchase an EV. (I guess I am a "cheerleader" but hopefully not an obnoxious one)

I have had a plug in car for over 7 years now. (first a Volt and then an iPace). I have forgotten to plug in at home exactly one time. That's less often then I forget to close the garage door.

My life isn't completely regimented. Sometimes I drive to the airport, sometimes to Bellevue or Everett. I can easily go to Olympia and back on one charge. If I want to go to Portland, I know where I can plug in. Although I haven't driven to Spokane in the past 5 or 6 years, I could do so with minimal planning. (my car and several smart phone apps tell me where I can stop for a quick charge on the way). By the way, the charging infrastructure is fast improving. Many new superchargers aren't even on the maps yet, so the system is probably already quite a bit better than it appears if you're googling "Level 3 charging stations near me".

Driving to Chicago might be a pain, but I am pretty certain that such a trip isn't happening, regardless of the car I own. (in the extremely unlikely event I had to make such a trip, I would either plan it out with charging stops or just rent a car.)

I believe there are a significant number of people like me and also a significant number of people who wouldn't find an EV very convenient.

Eta: tl:dr I love my car, and it works for me. If an EV is not for you, that's fine.

Last edited by Procrustus; 10-31-2019 at 04:13 PM.
  #268  
Old 10-31-2019, 04:14 PM
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What if you go to work with a 25 mile each way commute, then go out until late, forget to put the charger in when you get home, then want to visit a friend who lives 60 miles away where I'll be parked in a gravel lot with no charger, then come home after the weekend?
What about it? That's only 170 miles, which almost all of the recent EVs will handle with no problem.

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You can only go, maybe 100 miles on even the best EVs and still be able to get home.
The Model S 100D has a 373 mile range, so really it's >180 miles each way. Even the shortest range Tesla will do 250 miles.
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Old 10-31-2019, 04:32 PM
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Since this thread seems overrepresented by people telling about their lives with 400 mile daily commutes and numerous consecutive thousand mile drives, I'll just toss out myself as a datapoint on the opposite end of the scale. I average maybe 15 miles a day and haven't been more than an hour away from my apartment in thirteen years, and have no inclination to change that in the next thirteen either. I was born to drive an EV.

My apartment complex, on the other hand, wasn't born to support one. Dashed shame, that. There's no indication that they're going to retrofit anything in the forseeable future either.

If I were to follow the trend in this thread and assume that my life choices are utterly representative of all human life then I would conclude that the primary hurdle to wide EV acceptance is not the handful of deviants who continually drive their car around without eating or sleeping, but rather declining home ownership and weather conditions. That and people waiting for the next better thing - the longer battery they don't need, or the self driving car they desperately want. As they say, the perfect is the enemy of the good, and given that buying a cars is a pretty permanent investment people are going to be leery of getting in early on developing technology when something better looks to be on the horizon.
  #270  
Old 10-31-2019, 05:16 PM
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My apartment complex, on the other hand, wasn't born to support one. Dashed shame, that. There's no indication that they're going to retrofit anything in the forseeable future either.
In California at least, apartment complexes are obligated to allow tenants to install EV charging stations, within reasonable bounds.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:41 PM
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I also think I am about the perfect candidate for an EV. I typically drive 28 miles a day to work and back, and anywhere else I might want to go after work would still be well within the range of any EV. The longest trip I make semi-regularly (meaning a few times a year) would be to San Francisco, a little under 100 miles away. Even that would be within the range of even the shortest range Tesla to do as a round trip, but since it's San Francisco there are plenty of places to recharge at my destination as well (although the there's the issue of the car possibly being "idle" on the charger while parked at the BART station until I return). But really I prefer to take the train when I visit the Bay Area anyway, and I only drive if the train schedule doesn't align with my schedule (like I'm seeing a show in the evening that ends too late for me to catch the last train home). All my relatives live in other states so I would fly if I wanted to visit them anyway, and likewise I typically fly for vacations rather than taking road trips. If I really wanted to do a road trip to somewhere like Yosemite I'm sure I could swing the cost of a rental car once a year or so. I'm sure that would be no more expensive than flying somewhere. Not to mention isn't there at least one EV that was offering buyers one free car rental per year, to try to assuage the "What if I want to take a 1000 mile road trip?" people? And it sound like I don't even need any new wiring for a charger since I already have a dryer outlet in my garage. I'd probably get one of those "Dryer Buddy" devices someone linked to earlier so I'm not having to constantly plug and unplug the dryer.

I am seriously thinking of getting an EV for my next vehicle. That won't be fore several years though, since I just got a new car this year. I'm thinking by there there will likely be more used Teslas and others on the market, so I won't have to pay full price for a new one.
  #272  
Old 10-31-2019, 06:19 PM
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In California at least, apartment complexes are obligated to allow tenants to install EV charging stations, within reasonable bounds.
I have two children who live in Chicago. I don't believe their landlords are even obligated to provide any parking at all, much less chargers.
  #273  
Old 10-31-2019, 06:32 PM
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They keep talking about promoting EVs here but they are going to need to address some monumental obstacles to adoption.
Thank you for posting. This illustrates some of what I was talking about in the Original Post

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Originally Posted by Pábitel View Post
I keep hearing people talk about how easy it would be to make the switch but for most of the miles in this country there just isn't any infrastructure in place to support them.
While this may be true for remote areas, it is not true for the majority of the driving population. Also, I find that many people are unaware of what infrastructure exists, as they have never looked, or are unaware that things are changing rapidly. (and will continue to change/improve)




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In my state most houses don't even have garages, even many that do are not wired. Most houses here would need major wiring work to even consider an EV.
We've been having lots of discussion about this above. "major wiring work"? No. a 110, 15 amp plug will give you 50 miles range overnight. A level 2 charger works off of a dryer circuit, and will give you lots of range.


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The range is also an issue. You can only go, maybe 100 miles on even the best EVs and still be able to get home.
Are you from the past? Have you been reading 2012 Nissan LEAF advertisements?


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Originally Posted by Pábitel View Post
I personally think EVs are great, but until someone figures out how to address the issue of both commercial and private charging infrastructure they will not make sense anywhere but very urban areas.
Infrastructure is coming. Slower in rural areas to be sure. Slower in states and provinces that tend to vote right-wing; certainly. Many of my Alberta friends hate, HATE HATE anything that does not burn oil (and lots of it). They actively FIGHT AGAINST any kind of EV infrastructure. But businesses are putting it in all the same.

So I understand that in your area, the infrastructure problem is real. But I imagine in the early days of internal combustion cars, the same was true. "I can't get any gasoline in my area. There are no places to sell it, and there never will be. My trusty horse is all I need."
  #274  
Old 10-31-2019, 06:49 PM
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I have two children who live in Chicago. I don't believe their landlords are even obligated to provide any parking at all, much less chargers.
This article suggests that although new apartments in Chicago have EV charger requirements, there is not yet a California-like right-to-charge ordnance.

That said, it's also true that apartments in CA are not obligated to provide parking spots. Just that if they do (and meet other constraints), then they must allow apartment dwellers to install a charging system.
  #275  
Old 10-31-2019, 07:21 PM
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Last year I stayed in an Airbnb in an apartment complex in Hawaii where either the landlord or one of the tenants had installed an EV charger in the parking lot. The charger was the same sort that one might install in a garage (I assume it was rated for outdoor use, though) and attached to a wooden post. IIRC they ran a wire from the top of the building to the top of the post, like an above ground power line. So no, installing chargers doesn't necessarily require ripping up the parking lot like some had previously claimed (although if they installed a bunch of chargers all the hanging wires might look kind of ugly). Every night there was a Nissan Leaf plugged into it.

Seeing that made me realize that an EV is probably the ideal island car. On most of the Hawaiian islands except maybe the Big Island there literally nowhere you can drive to that's beyond the range of most EVs. The downside is that Hawaii has the most expensive electricity in the country (although they have some of the the most expensive gas, too).

Last edited by WildaBeast; 10-31-2019 at 07:22 PM.
  #276  
Old 11-01-2019, 12:07 AM
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Since this thread seems overrepresented by people telling about their lives with 400 mile daily commutes and numerous consecutive thousand mile drives, I'll just toss out myself as a datapoint on the opposite end of the scale. I average maybe 15 miles a day and haven't been more than an hour away from my apartment in thirteen years, and have no inclination to change that in the next thirteen either. I was born to drive an EV.

My apartment complex, on the other hand, wasn't born to support one. Dashed shame, that. There's no indication that they're going to retrofit anything in the forseeable future either.
Cities are going to be the most challenging infrastructure-wise for EV adoption. Anybody with a house can install a 240v plug in their garage or driveway. But apartment dwellers are far more limited.

My old building in Brooklyn was built in the 1920s and has 90 apartments. There is no garage or parking lot. Surrounding buildings are of a similar vintage. Street parking is minimal to non-existent. Even if you could get a spot in front of your building, nobody's going to let you run an extension cord up to your window.

If you're crazy enough to actually own a car that area, your only choice is to park it in a private lot or garage, probably several blocks away. I suppose private garages could be incentivized to install charging stations, but then they would need someone to rotate cars in and out of the charging spots; people who use private garages in NYC mostly take their cars out a couple days a week, often only on the weekends. So you can't have a car sitting at a charging station for six days when it only takes a couple hours to charge up.

Things will get easier as fast charging stations become more ubiquitous and (hopefully) more standardized so all EVs can use them. But that's going to take years.
  #277  
Old 11-01-2019, 12:30 AM
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What about it? That's only 170 miles, which almost all of the recent EVs will handle with no problem.
No, that's 50 miles for the commute, another 20 or so miles for going out, then 25 miles for the commute, 60 miles to friend's house, 60 miles back to work, 25 miles to home. That's 235 miles of driving, not including possibly driving anywhere else while visiting my friend, should could easily be another 25+ miles without doing anything out of the ordinary. With an ICE car, I just stop at one of the ubiquitous gas stations and fill it up at any point on the trip. With the EV, I have to find a special charging station multiple times and hope there's not a line or that I've ended up out of range of the nearest one.

Also, you're using the range of a car with new batteries under optimal conditions. How much does the range drop when the car has actually gotten broken in at five years or so? What I found in a quick google search is that they tend to be at 80-85% endurance compared to new at the five year mark, so instead of 250 miles of range you're really going to have 200 miles of range with a non-new car. Same thing with bad weather, that further reduces the range. As that range drops, the number of likely scenarios that require me to plan my life around my car increase.

Quote:
The Model S 100D has a 373 mile range, so really it's >180 miles each way. Even the shortest range Tesla will do 250 miles.
Edmund's list the price of a Model S 100d as a staggering $133,000. That's close to what I paid for my HOUSE, and more than the combined total I've spent buying cars in my entire life. A $133,000 car is so absurdly out of the question for me and pretty much everyone I know that it's laughable to even think of including it in a discussion of adopting electric cars.

You guys can sneer at people who write off using electric cars anytime soon all you want, but it's not going to get people to pay house money for a car.
  #278  
Old 11-01-2019, 12:57 AM
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No, that's 50 miles for the commute, another 20 or so miles for going out, then 25 miles for the commute, 60 miles to friend's house, 60 miles back to work, 25 miles to home.
Uh, what? That's not the trip you first mentioned at first.

You seem to be asking what happens if there are two days in a row with above average use and forgetting to charge in between. The answer is: don't do that, but if you do, then you might have to burn some time at a public charger.

I've run out of gas a couple of times. It was a giant pain in the ass and took hours to resolve, but it's such a rare occurrence that it's nothing in the grand scheme of things. Same deal here. I haven't forgotten to plug in myself, but I did once forget to set the charge point from 80% to 100% before a trip. It meant I spent a whopping 10 minutes at a Supercharger. So what.

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Also, you're using the range of a car with new batteries under optimal conditions. How much does the range drop when the car has actually gotten broken in at five years or so? What I found in a quick google search is that they tend to be at 80-85% endurance compared to new at the five year mark, so instead of 250 miles of range you're really going to have 200 miles of range with a non-new car.
It's less than that in a Tesla. See a chart here. There's a fairly quick drop to 95% and then a very slow drop to 90%. That's at a pretty high mileage, though.

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Edmund's list the price of a Model S 100d as a staggering $133,000.
Pábitel said (coloring mine):
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Originally Posted by Pábitel View Post
You can only go, maybe 100 miles on even the best EVs and still be able to get home.
And that's false. The best EVs get >370 miles total range.

Also, your price is for the Performance edition. The long range edition (the one I'm talking about) is $80,000. No, it's still not cheap. But Pábitel made no mention of price.
  #279  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:11 AM
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You know, when I first read the OP, I thought he was overstating his case.

My apologies, Euphonious Polemic, you've proven your point.
  #280  
Old 11-01-2019, 09:04 AM
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No, that's 50 miles for the commute, another 20 or so miles for going out, then 25 miles for the commute, 60 miles to friend's house, 60 miles back to work, 25 miles to home. That's 235 miles of driving, not including possibly driving anywhere else while visiting my friend, should could easily be another 25+ miles without doing anything out of the ordinary. ....
Yikes! That's ordinary for you? Do you live in your car?

If I drove that much I suppose I'd care more about all those luxury features I've always ignored. But that sounds like hell.
  #281  
Old 11-01-2019, 09:35 AM
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Yikes! That's ordinary for you? Do you live in your car?

If I drove that much I suppose I'd care more about all those luxury features I've always ignored. But that sounds like hell.
I work with a lot of people like that, it seems to be the suburban mindset. People move further and further away from work, then complain about how much driving they have to do.
  #282  
Old 11-01-2019, 10:39 AM
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You know, when I first read the OP, I thought he was overstating his case.

My apologies, Euphonious Polemic, you've proven your point.
This is not even as bad as it often gets on other sites.

It's common - "this is why an EV won't work for me", followed by extreme cases, and then goalpost moving. I had one guy whose daily commute morphed into a 150km journey through a remote frozen wasteland. And he concluded with "and that's why electric vehicles are terrible for anyone."

At least here we don't have the outrageous bullshitters and liars like on other sites I complained about. Nobody is posting pictures of open pit copper mines claiming they are "lithium mines". Nobody is claiming that EV batteries explode regularly, killing children. I've seen it all.

I think on the whole, people are not good with changing technologies on this kind of scale. I imagine in the early days of the gas automobile, it was similar. People were scoffing that this silly toy would replace good old horse transportation. How would roads be built that these new "cars" could drive on? That would be impossible. Where would people buy gasoline? Youl could run out of gas and then what?
  #283  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:08 AM
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To be fair, cars in the early part of the 20th Century were a pain in the ass. This page has a chart showing the locations where oils, grease or lubricant needed to be added, as often as every thousand miles and the motor oil changed every 2,000 miles. All of those gas stations we see on the side of the road with an attached convenience store? Not that long ago, those convenience stores were actual service stations for autos with mechanics doing lube jobs on cars.

But none of that has been true for a good long while. And an EV doesn't need motor or transmission oil changes.
  #284  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:22 PM
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Did this hotel have streetlights in the parking lot? Then some power has already been run.
Two light poles in the front of the building, but they were along driving lanes, meaning can only charge cars on one side of them unless they reconfigure the parking lot. I have not stated it can't be done, but what's the incentive for the hotel owner to do such at this point? It's a chicken & egg thing; until they get demand, they're not doing it but until there's supply people aren't using EV cars on trips because of range anxiety issues so there's minimal demand.


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I have never owned a car that could be driven 8 hours without stopping for fuel. And for that matter, I've never owned a butt that could sit for 8 hours without a break. I always get up and walk around on long airplane flights.

I think of 400 miles as a big tank for an ICE. That's longer than I ever want to drive in one sitting. Four hours is about my max bum-in-seat time.

I don't usually take a break when I fuel my ICE car, but that's because I usually top off at the start of my trip, and rarely drive more than 3 hours at a stretch. When I used to drive from Princeton, NJ to Boston, MA, which is theoretically a 4.5-5 hour drive, I always stopped for a meal, and it typically took up 6 hours. Because we had to stop for gas anyway, and sitting that long was really unpleasant.

YMMV
MMDV (My mileage does vary). As stated previously, I do anywhere from 5-8 hr drives between 6-9 weekends a year. Many of those are two days; so out one day & back the next, usually after a race. I try to minimize my seat time so the last thing I want to do is add 30-45 mins sitting in a restaurant. Tank of gas if necessary; pee, if necessary; (cold) caffeine acquisition, if necessary but food is usually in the car, either snacks I brought or maybe a quick fast food to go to cut down on end-to-end time & the amount of time I need to sit for that day.

On trips north, I can fuel & pee at the same time about 2 hrs in & then not need to stop for the rest of the way (thanks NJ requiring pumped gas).

Most of my trip are into rural areas; it's not uncommon to not even have cell service for a significant portion of time; I don't expect to find fast chargers out there anytime soon. At least three of them this year, the hotel was a crashpad, only there for 7 hrs or less. If they have a charger & it's full or broken when I pull in, then I'm screwed. The range & refuel ability is the reason I won't even consider one.

Until the average EV's range comes up to what the Model S, which is priced like a luxury car, & therefore beyond the means of many I don't see the situation changing that much.
  #285  
Old 11-01-2019, 03:01 PM
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Two light poles in the front of the building, but they were along driving lanes, meaning can only charge cars on one side of them unless they reconfigure the parking lot. I have not stated it can't be done, but what's the incentive for the hotel owner to do such at this point? It's a chicken & egg thing; until they get demand, they're not doing it but until there's supply people aren't using EV cars on trips because of range anxiety issues so there's minimal demand.
My read was that if there are lights there are presumably already underground wires leading to those lights that may offer opportunities for splicing other things onto without ripping up the entire parking lot.

However I am an idiot and thus may be misunderstanding the situation.
  #286  
Old 11-01-2019, 03:29 PM
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I have not stated it can't be done, but what's the incentive for the hotel owner to do such at this point? It's a chicken & egg thing; until they get demand, they're not doing it but until there's supply people aren't using EV cars on trips because of range anxiety issues so there's minimal demand.
You are apparently unaware of the Telsa destination charging network. As I understand it, Tesla will provide level 2 chargers and install them at qualifying businesses such as hotels, restaurants, and shopping centers. They only work with Teslas and the business will be responsible for things like compliance with local regulation (zoning or fees, for example) and paying for the electricity. It turns out there's lots of demand for this, just look at the map at that link.

Last edited by dtilque; 11-01-2019 at 03:30 PM.
  #287  
Old 11-01-2019, 03:39 PM
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My read was that if there are lights there are presumably already underground wires leading to those lights that may offer opportunities for splicing other things onto without ripping up the entire parking lot.

However I am an idiot and thus may be misunderstanding the situation.
A couple of lights in the parking lot probably isn't the most robust of circuits. Joe Hotelowner could probably fairly easily put in one or two Level 1 charging stations but they're not very fast but costs go up significantly when you gotta start trenching conduit under asphalt. That doesn't help me at all if you arrived first & are plugged in & need to be plugged in all night to charge. Gas stations usually have multiple pumps, if one pump is down, I drive maybe 10' further & fill up. As I've stated previously in this thread, I've never seen more than two EV filling stations at one place. If you're using one & one is broken for whatever reason, then I'm SoL.

Until hotels put in enough Level 2 chargers that I'm basically guaranteed to start the (early) morning off with a full charge then I just can't chance it. My feeling would be the same if we all drove EV cars & ICE was the new technology. I won't consider one until much better refueling infrastructure is in place as my lifestyle requires I'd need it, on average, every sixth to seventh week.
  #288  
Old 11-01-2019, 03:57 PM
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I've been driving an EV for 5 years, and have charged somewhere other than my house maybe 10 times. I have never once found all available stalls taken or had to wait to charge. So in my area at least, there is sufficient infrastructure for the number of EVs on the road.

For those arguing that the current number of chargers can't support a ten-fold increase in EV use, then congratulations, Captain Obvious, you are correct. If you for some reason think that it was possible to install all the existing stations but will now be exceedingly difficult to install any more, then I assure you, it's not.
  #289  
Old 11-01-2019, 04:14 PM
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A couple of lights in the parking lot probably isn't the most robust of circuits. Joe Hotelowner could probably fairly easily put in one or two Level 1 charging stations but they're not very fast but costs go up significantly when you gotta start trenching conduit under asphalt. That doesn't help me at all if you arrived first & are plugged in & need to be plugged in all night to charge. Gas stations usually have multiple pumps, if one pump is down, I drive maybe 10' further & fill up. As I've stated previously in this thread, I've never seen more than two EV filling stations at one place. If you're using one & one is broken for whatever reason, then I'm SoL.

Until hotels put in enough Level 2 chargers that I'm basically guaranteed to start the (early) morning off with a full charge then I just can't chance it. My feeling would be the same if we all drove EV cars & ICE was the new technology. I won't consider one until much better refueling infrastructure is in place as my lifestyle requires I'd need it, on average, every sixth to seventh week.
If another hotel - not the one you stayed at - has lights in the parking lot they can simply add outlets to the lights and let EV owners use their own EVSE to plug in. Cost to the hotel owner is minimal.

Everyone who drives an EV today on a road trip has a plan for where to charge. Nobody just counts on their hotel to have level 2 charging. Any yet, complaints from EV owners about being unable to charge on their road trips is becoming very uncommon. In fact, EV owners of anything are excited that their road trips are becoming quite convenient.

So when you talk about how difficult it is for an EV to go on a road trip, those comments are out of touch with people who are doing them as we speak.
  #290  
Old 11-01-2019, 04:49 PM
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...Until the average EV's range comes up to what the Model S, which is priced like a luxury car, & therefore beyond the means of many I don't see the situation changing that much.
The model 3 long range is not quite as pricey. Nor is the Chevy Volt. But yeah, if you need significantly over 300 miles on a charge, EVs aren't there yet.

If you only sometimes need that, the PHEVs are definitely in the running today, however.
https://insideevs.com/reviews/344001/compare-evs/

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I've been driving an EV for 5 years, and have charged somewhere other than my house maybe 10 times. I have never once found all available stalls taken or had to wait to charge. So in my area at least, there is sufficient infrastructure for the number of EVs on the road...
I've been driving a PHEV for a little longer than that. It only went 18 miles on a charge when new. I charge it all the time (although I never have to, because it runs great on gas.) I've sometimes found all the available stall full. Annoyingly, often the stall is taken by a car that isn't charging, either an ICE or an EV that the owner didn't bother to plug in (I see Teslas in EV spots, not plugged in, all the time.)
  #291  
Old 11-01-2019, 05:11 PM
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I have to ask, someone says they drive like 40 miles.

But what about time? often people spend an hour or more just sitting still or crawling along in stop and go traffic. And in many areas your still running your air conditioner.

How do these cars handle that?
  #292  
Old 11-01-2019, 05:26 PM
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I have to ask, someone says they drive like 40 miles.

But what about time? often people spend an hour or more just sitting still or crawling along in stop and go traffic. And in many areas your still running your air conditioner.

How do these cars handle that?
If you're not running head or A/C, you can sit in traffic for days.

With heat or A/C, there is some power usage, but in my experience ( and others) it is not bad at all. It's actually a worse hit to your range to speed.
  #293  
Old 11-01-2019, 05:48 PM
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Yes, stop and go traffic is way more efficient in an EV because of the regenerative braking. ICE vehicles get better mileage on the highway without stops and starts, but EVs get better mileage in the city. As EP says, you'll take a little hit from A/C, but the slow driving will more than balance it, so your range will be farther even with all the extra time.
  #294  
Old 11-01-2019, 10:58 PM
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If you're not running head or A/C, you can sit in traffic for days.

With heat or A/C, there is some power usage, but in my experience ( and others) it is not bad at all. It's actually a worse hit to your range to speed.
How bad is the hit to range with speed? Like I said I like to drive 80 mph most of the time when I'm on the freeway.
  #295  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:12 PM
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How bad is the hit to range with speed? Like I said I like to drive 80 mph most of the time when I'm on the freeway.
All cars take a serious dump in mileage at that speed, around 25 percent or so. EVs are no different.

https://teslike.com/range/
  #296  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:14 PM
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Another question. The ordinary way to dip one's toe into this technology would be to get a good deal on a used car, and use it as a second car.

But back in Post 123, Puzzlegal noted battery packs wear out. I think I read somewhere that the useful life is somewhere around 70,000 miles. So if I buy an EV with 60,000+ miles on it, how steep will the power dropoff be? If I buy one with 70,000 miles, how much can I expect to pay to have the battery pack replaced or refurbished or whatever needs to be done?
  #297  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:22 PM
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You are apparently unaware of the Telsa destination charging network. As I understand it, Tesla will provide level 2 chargers and install them at qualifying businesses such as hotels, restaurants, and shopping centers. They only work with Teslas and the business will be responsible for things like compliance with local regulation (zoning or fees, for example) and paying for the electricity. It turns out there's lots of demand for this, just look at the map at that link.
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Everyone who drives an EV today on a road trip has a plan for where to charge. Nobody just counts on their hotel to have level 2 charging. Any yet, complaints from EV owners about being unable to charge on their road trips is becoming very uncommon. In fact, EV owners of anything are excited that their road trips are becoming quite convenient.

So when you talk about how difficult it is for an EV to go on a road trip, those comments are out of touch with people who are doing them as we speak.
I remember doing this before, in a different thread on the Dope; I don't remember who's thread it was but even they agreed that they wouldn't work for me. In the two coastal corridors it's doable but where I tend to be driving (to & thru Pensyltucky - I'm used to not having cell phone coverage the whole way; one regular 5 hr drive I can't even use the phone for 1-1½ hrs of said drive to give you an idea of how desolate it is.) That map is pretty sparse & half of what's there is for customers only. I'm not so much interested in a hotel 30-40 mins from my destination, which means 1-1½ hour round trip.
  #298  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:34 PM
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Another question. The ordinary way to dip one's toe into this technology would be to get a good deal on a used car, and use it as a second car.

But back in Post 123, Puzzlegal noted battery packs wear out. I think I read somewhere that the useful life is somewhere around 70,000 miles. So if I buy an EV with 60,000+ miles on it, how steep will the power dropoff be? If I buy one with 70,000 miles, how much can I expect to pay to have the battery pack replaced or refurbished or whatever needs to be done?
70,000 miles is not even close to end of life for these batteries. As an example, one of the more prominent EV bloggers has shown the charge capacity at 70,000 miles is still 92% of new. And that’s one of the more pessimistic reports I’ve seen, from a user doing many DCFC charges.
  #299  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:48 PM
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I remember doing this before, in a different thread on the Dope; I don't remember who's thread it was but even they agreed that they wouldn't work for me. In the two coastal corridors it's doable but where I tend to be driving (to & thru Pensyltucky - I'm used to not having cell phone coverage the whole way; one regular 5 hr drive I can't even use the phone for 1-1½ hrs of said drive to give you an idea of how desolate it is.) That map is pretty sparse & half of what's there is for customers only. I'm not so much interested in a hotel 30-40 mins from my destination, which means 1-1½ hour round trip.
There’s a fine line between arguing against the general misperception that EVs are impractical and arguing against the impracticality in a specific case.

I crossed that line in the post you quoted: I have no basis to argue that EVs are practical for you; even though I strongly believe that EVs are suitable for more people than those who currently realize it, as a general matter.

Last edited by Ravenman; 11-01-2019 at 11:48 PM.
  #300  
Old 11-02-2019, 12:28 AM
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All cars take a serious dump in mileage at that speed, around 25 percent or so. EVs are no different.

https://teslike.com/range/
So that looks like the Model 3 loses 40-50% of its range doing 80. I didn't analyze every model there but that makes Christmas vacation a little more terrifying. Any information on how the cold penalty stacks on that? Will my 400 mile range go to 180-200 assuming its 0 F outside?

Also why is it such a huge penalty? My JGC has a sticker of 27 mpg on the highway and I generally get 16 mpg when I'm doing 80 that's as good as the best Model 3.
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