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  #51  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WOOKINPANUB View Post
In a major city ridden with racial and religious strife?
This is not a description of Paris that I recognize, particularly compared with any other major city.
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  #52  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:22 AM
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So what if they did? Chances are there were probably a bunch fucking too. Just try and debunk that.
  #53  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:39 AM
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This is not a description of Paris that I recognize, particularly compared with any other major city.
I was under the impression that there is an immigration problem and much anti Muslim sentiment among some of the natives. Am I confusing it with some other locale? Goodness knows, there's plenty of unrest to go around almost anywhere you look
  #54  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:10 AM
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Really? You're "completely baffled that anyone would think for a second" that it was terrorist related? In a major city ridden with racial and religious strife? That's a pretty naive stance to take (but what do I know, I'm just one of your mind baffling morons).
I'm not baffled by the concept of terrorism in Paris. Hell, when I was told the church was burning, my mind immediately went there. But then I caught myself a second later, and then I used my brain.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:20 AM
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It hadn't even occurred to me that it might be deliberate, since I knew restoration was in progress. I even said to the wife, "Shit - someone left something plugged in again."
  #56  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:25 AM
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It hadn't even occurred to me that it might be deliberate, since I knew restoration was in progress. I even said to the wife, "Shit - someone left something plugged in again."
You can, literally, see the scaffolding in the pictures they were taking as the fire was raging. Geeze folks, seriously...the highest probability for why the fire started is right there in front of you. Sure, if they find evidence that it was deliberate then take the investigation that way, but as a first reaction, the fact we know renovations were going on (you know, with grinders, power tools, probably old, dry building materials as well as paint and myriad other flammable things) and we know that this wouldn't be the first time a fire started during renovation construction at a building site. It's not even the 100th. Probably not even the 1000th.
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  #57  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:43 AM
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There are plenty of examples of Islamic terrorists targeting Christians (you can find examples of the converse as well if you look) that have nothing to do with the US. It's trivially easy to find them. I don't think this has anything to do with the Notre Dame Cathedral burning down though.
I did not say that it had anything to do with the fire. I was answering a poster who claimed that Muslims have not targeted Christians in the past.

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You can, literally, see the scaffolding in the pictures they were taking as the fire was raging. Geeze folks, seriously...the highest probability for why the fire started is right there in front of you. Sure, if they find evidence that it was deliberate then take the investigation that way, but as a first reaction, the fact we know renovations were going on (you know, with grinders, power tools, probably old, dry building materials as well as paint and myriad other flammable things) and we know that this wouldn't be the first time a fire started during renovation construction at a building site. It's not even the 100th. Probably not even the 1000th.
I agree. As soon as I saw the scaffolding and heard it was under renovation that was my immediate thought. Ive seen it happen in many buildings personally and they didnt have wood that was 900 years old.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:49 AM
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I did not say that it had anything to do with the fire. I was answering a poster who claimed that Muslims have not targeted Christians in the past.
It wasn't supposed to be a criticism of you. Sorry it was unclear, I was agreeing with you and mostly just using your post as a starting point for my own comment. It IS trivially easy to find examples as you provided that show Islamic terrorists targeting Christians (and fellow Muslims, and Hindu's and Jews and lots of others), so not sure how that poster you were replying to has missed it. But in this case it doesn't seem the most likely possibility, at least based on what we know so far. It IS possible, but there are other, more probable things that are more likely to have been the cause.
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  #59  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:02 PM
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You can, literally, see the scaffolding in the pictures they were taking as the fire was raging.
That, plus the fact that it started on a random week evening (rather than, say, during a packed Mass, or during the hours the cathedral is open to tourists), plus the fact that nothing exploded, plus the fact that the fire started in a place not accessible to the public, plus the fact that not many people *actually knew* the entire roof was a giant pile of matchsticks because believe it or not gothic architecture isn't exactly prime time TV material or taught in schools, plus the fact that nobody came forward to claim the deed, plus the fact that the department of historical monuments has been woefully underfunded for decades and nothing is up to code anywhere and the last time anybody did any work on N-D's roof was in fricking 1930... You get the idea. There are hundreds of reasons to expect it was a stupid accident and not a single one pointing to terrorism, much less Muslim terrorism specifically.



Occam's razor tells me that the people trying to push the narrative that Muslims burned down the ReichstagNotre-Dame maaaaaybe have an agenda, and mayyyybe they don't care about facts.
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  #60  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:35 PM
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I'm not baffled by the concept of terrorism in Paris. Hell, when I was told the church was burning, my mind immediately went there. But then I caught myself a second later, and then I used my brain.
As did mine; that's why I wasn't sure why I was being labelled a moron I personally had no idea the building was under construction and even if I had known, in this day and age it's a sad fact that many peoples' first, split second thought goes to man-made evil.

I will agree those who not only assume terrorism to be the case, but start talking about like it's a fact, or worse, continue to hold onto that theory even after the facts have been discovered, are indeed morons.
  #61  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:48 PM
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Latest shared post by same person:

"Here are the locations of attacks on, and destruction of, churches in France, over the last 4 years.

But the burning of Notre Dame was an accident.

Altogether 1063 attacks and desecrations on Christian churches and symbols took place alone in France in 2018. That makes it 185 attacks more than in 2017.
As a comparison: About 100 synagogues and mosques were attacked in the same time in France."

I called racist bullshit on it. I may have to friend her, alas.
  #62  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:59 PM
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As did mine; that's why I wasn't sure why I was being labelled a moron I personally had no idea the building was under construction and even if I had known, in this day and age it's a sad fact that many peoples' first, split second thought goes to man-made evil.

I will agree those who not only assume terrorism to be the case, but start talking about like it's a fact, or worse, continue to hold onto that theory even after the facts have been discovered, are indeed morons.
Given that Kobol said that the main reason people shouldn't think it was terrorism was that nobody had claimed responsibility in the immediate aftermath indicates to me that he was indeed talking about people who still hold those beliefs after the facts had been discovered. I had the same feelings you did when I first heard the news on the radio, they lasted about 15 seconds until the announcer said that it was suspected to have been caused by the renovation.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 04-17-2019 at 01:00 PM.
  #63  
Old 04-17-2019, 01:12 PM
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The thought of terrorism never even entered my mind, and initially I didn't know the building was under renovations. Buildings burn all the time; that's why we have fire departments.
Hell, just last week a fire gutted an over century old building here in Ottawa. The cause of the fire? Roof repairs.
  #64  
Old 04-17-2019, 01:21 PM
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That, plus the fact that it started on a random week evening (rather than, say, during a packed Mass, or during the hours the cathedral is open to tourists), plus the fact that nothing exploded, plus the fact that the fire started in a place not accessible to the public, plus the fact that not many people *actually knew* the entire roof was a giant pile of matchsticks because believe it or not gothic architecture isn't exactly prime time TV material or taught in schools, plus the fact that nobody came forward to claim the deed, plus the fact that the department of historical monuments has been woefully underfunded for decades and nothing is up to code anywhere and the last time anybody did any work on N-D's roof was in fricking 1930... You get the idea. There are hundreds of reasons to expect it was a stupid accident and not a single one pointing to terrorism, much less Muslim terrorism specifically.
You don't really need a reason to know it was probably an accident. Most fires are accidents. The great majority, actually. Absent any other evidence at all, if you hear there's a fire, probability dictates it is very likely an accident.
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  #65  
Old 04-17-2019, 01:43 PM
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Latest shared post by same person:

"Here are the locations of attacks on, and destruction of, churches in France, over the last 4 years.

But the burning of Notre Dame was an accident.

Altogether 1063 attacks and desecrations on Christian churches and symbols took place alone in France in 2018. That makes it 185 attacks more than in 2017.
As a comparison: About 100 synagogues and mosques were attacked in the same time in France."

I called racist bullshit on it. I may have to friend her, alas.
You're not going to get through to her, unfortunately. I've never seen anyone change their mind from mindless crap they've posted on Facebook.

However, another simple thought: it doesn't make any sense to make an act of terrorism look like an accident--that kind of defeats the whole point of terrorism. If terrorists scored something as big as burning down Notre Dame, they sure as hell would be proclaiming it loudly and proudly, I should think.
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:50 PM
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You're not going to get through to her, unfortunately. I've never seen anyone change their mind from mindless crap they've posted on Facebook.

However, another simple thought: it doesn't make any sense to make an act of terrorism look like an accident--that kind of defeats the whole point of terrorism. If terrorists scored something as big as burning down Notre Dame, they sure as hell would be proclaiming it loudly and proudly, I should think.
Yes. And of course my post should have said "unfriend" her.
  #67  
Old 04-17-2019, 01:52 PM
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  #68  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:07 PM
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Hey, c'mon, maybe he only stopped at one place and the waiter was newly arrived!
Ah yes, that could be it. Recent immigrant waiting staff. See, this is why immigration is such a problem ! They don't assimilate or respect our core values of sneering at absolutely everyone hailing from outside the Priphrique !


(Amusing anecdote: I was teaching tourism to Parisian high school kids earlier this year, talking about world tourism numbers and touristic saturation sometimes leading people in tourism hotspots to feel "not at home" any more - the example in the textbook being Barcelona, a city of 1.5 million people who welcome some 4 to 6 million tourists a year, the problems that causes etc... I then segued into stating the obvious : the city they live in is also a major tourist spot, but the feeling of being "under assault" by tourists is much less felt for reasons X, Y, Z.

At which point a kid in the first row muttered under his breath that tourists could still go fuck themselves and go home, because they bug him. He's like 12, and the kicker : his parents are from Chechnya and he wasn't even born in Paris, just lived here much of his life. Needless to say my heart swelled with civic pride.)
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  #69  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:18 PM
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The kind of people who latch onto these fallacies and present them as truths are not swayed by logic and facts. They're only interested in furthering their own hate.
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  #70  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:13 PM
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The thought of terrorism never even entered my mind, and initially I didn't know the building was under renovations. Buildings burn all the time; that's why we have fire departments.
Hell, just last week a fire gutted an over century old building here in Ottawa. The cause of the fire? Roof repairs.
I never considered terrorism a possibility either, figuring it was an accidental fire.

Then I realized it must've been set by French waiters holding a grudge over low tipping by parishioners.
  #71  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:26 PM
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I never considered terrorism a possibility either, figuring it was an accidental fire.

Then I realized it must've been set by French waiters holding a grudge over low tipping by parishioners.
Is France a tipping culture?
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  #72  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:49 PM
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Is France a tipping culture?
Not really - service costs are already included in the bill. It's still customary to leave the change on the table (well, the coins that is), but I can't remember the last time I personally did - like most people I pay exclusively in plastic these days. I don't even usually have real money on me any more.
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  #73  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:07 PM
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^This.

In another thread someone posted links to stories about Shep Smith of Fox News shutting down an anti-Muslim conspiracy theorist; here's another account:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/shep-smi...t-on-my-watch/

So not everyone is willing to let the hatred flow.
Since Philippe Karsenty was on the scene, let's begin a rumor that he started the fire.

BTW I've found French waiters to be very polite, but I'm from New York so my standards are low.
  #74  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:28 PM
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A source told me that the Pope had someone burn down Notre Dame so he could cash in on the lucrative construction contracts for the rebuild.

It's a well known fact. Ask your friend if she can disprove this. Bet she can't. And if she tries, I'll provide other "facts" that show she's wrong.

I'm surprised your friend did not know this. People are talking about it. At least they are now.
  #75  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:51 PM
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The trick is to stay away from the tourist restaurants, be courteous to the waiters first, and don't burn down any major cathedrals while in town.
Fuck, now you tell me.
  #76  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:28 PM
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I saw on the news that Michelle Obama was on a tour boat on the Seine at the time of the fire. I've been wondering how long it will be before the conspiracy theorists start spinning a story about how it is proof that it must be Obama's fault.

The bigots believe they've covered that with their nonsensical "Muslims did it!" line.

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Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
Latest shared post by same person:

"Here are the locations of attacks on, and destruction of, churches in France, over the last 4 years.

But the burning of Notre Dame was an accident.

Altogether 1063 attacks and desecrations on Christian churches and symbols took place alone in France in 2018. That makes it 185 attacks more than in 2017.
As a comparison: About 100 synagogues and mosques were attacked in the same time in France."

I called racist bullshit on it. I may have to friend her, alas.

I wonder what "Christian symbols" were "attacked" or "desecrated"? I also wonder what form the attacks/desecrations took.

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You're not going to get through to her, unfortunately. I've never seen anyone change their mind from mindless crap they've posted on Facebook.
&

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The kind of people who latch onto these fallacies and present them as truths are not swayed by logic and facts. They're only interested in furthering their own hate.

Sadly I get to see more than I want to of the nonsense on FB (the amount I want is zero) because a close relative I cannot unfriend buys into all the nonsense spread about Islam, Muslims, Democrats, foreigners, etc., and especially about the Clintons. I long ago quit responding to his posts with links to Snopes or other debunking sites. The simple fact is people who spread the nonsense are not interested in the truth of it and they certainly will not read the responses. All they care about is that they have been seen to "do something" about their favorite triggers. And how do they measure the effectiveness of their "something done"? Simple, friend, simple. FB's handy little tally of reposts and likes. And if you call them bigots, hateful, irrational, or any other negative term, well, friend, you are the one being intolerant, because, as they'll be more than happy to tell you, "It's not irrational to hate people who blah-blah-blah" even though you've already proven to them that the people they're maligning, in fact, do not "blah-blah-blah". Their minds, such as they are, have been made up to accept one version of reality as factual and, again as they'll be more than happy to tell you, "you cannot convince them otherwise". That, friend, is the very soul of irrationality.
  #77  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:40 PM
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https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/04/...ophJSXwSnq6VMQ
  #78  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:08 PM
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[QUOTE=susan;21596442]https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/04/...ophJSXwSnq6VMQ[/QU
Thank you.

I'm not sure what happened there, but still, thank you.

Last edited by Leaffan; 04-17-2019 at 10:11 PM.
  #79  
Old 04-18-2019, 06:05 AM
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Some unrelated idiocy, for your amusement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by faith-based person on Twitter
After all the aftermath and destruction of the Notre Dame fire, the alter [sic] and cross remained untouched. Please explain to me how you don't believe in God after seeing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by science-based person on Twitter
Because the melting point of gold is 1064˚C and a wood fire burns at around 600˚C
  #80  
Old 04-18-2019, 06:08 AM
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It hadn't even occurred to me that it might be deliberate, since I knew restoration was in progress. I even said to the wife, "Shit - someone left something plugged in again."
Or a construction worker tossed a not-fully-extinguished cigarette.
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:29 AM
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Some unrelated idiocy, for your amusement:
And just Who do you think determined the melting points?

  #82  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:23 AM
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At which point a kid in the first row muttered under his breath that tourists could still go fuck themselves and go home, because they bug him. He's like 12, and the kicker : his parents are from Chechnya and he wasn't even born in Paris, just lived here much of his life. Needless to say my heart swelled with civic pride.)
Kid's definitely well-integrated yessir


I didn't get the exact name of the guy, but heard in the radio yesterday:
Macron: it will be fixed in five years!
General manager of the historic monuments department or something like that: we'll see what can be done.

I've been in enough magical projects to be extremely appreciative of that second guy.
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  #83  
Old 04-18-2019, 11:06 AM
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Or a construction worker tossed a not-fully-extinguished cigarette.
A Parisian who smokes? Heaven forfend!

(Entirely based on the same cliches that gave us the rude waiters.)
  #84  
Old 04-18-2019, 02:16 PM
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A Parisian who smokes? Heaven forfend!

(Entirely based on the same cliches that gave us the rude waiters.)
If this had happened some years back I'd suggest they check for traces of bridge sweepings and chopped hay (signs that someone had been smoking a Gauloises Caporal).
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:29 PM
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I was watching a video today and found at that there IS apparently a group of people who ARE cheering about the destruction of the Notre Dame Cathedral. But it's not Muslims. I guess there is a thing on Chinese social media where a bunch of people (in theory...I suppose it could be 50 cent army types) have posted some rather off color things about it, saying the French got their own for burning the summer palace in China in 1860 or some such and laughing or guffawing about it. Ironically, the actual (very oppressed) Muslims in China aren't part of this...well, perhaps it's not so ironically, since they are heavily suppressed and closely monitored.

So...not Muslims. But, my guess is, no one has even paid attention or commented about the thousands of Chinese people who HAVE laughed and/or cheered about the burning, or even knows about it. To be fair, the reactions are very mixed, with a lot of Chinese being just as sympathetic as anyone else (while thousands have done the dick move thing, millions have been sympathetic). I do have to say that the irony of some (admittedly small number in comparison to how huge it is) folks on Chinese social media laughing or cheering considering that the CCP burned and destroyed so much more is...well, ironic.
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Last edited by XT; 04-19-2019 at 03:30 PM.
  #86  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:46 PM
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I guess there is a thing on Chinese social media where a bunch of people (in theory...I suppose it could be 50 cent army types) have posted some rather off color things about it, saying the French got their own for burning the summer palace in China in 1860 or some such and laughing or guffawing about it.
I'll see your 19th-century Summer Palace and raise you some 13th-century Talmuds.
Quote:
Radical rabbi says Notre Dame fire retribution for 13th-century Talmud burning

A prominent religious-Zionist rabbi known for his extremist views suggested on Wednesday that the fire that gutted the famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris earlier this week may have been divine retribution for the mass-burning of Talmud volumes by French Catholic priests in the city eight centuries earlier.

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, the rabbi of the Beit El settlement and head of the Ateret Yerushalayim yeshiva, said that Jews should not commit arson against churches, but also that there was no duty to be saddened by the fire, which gutted the famed 12th-century cathedral. [...]

While he said he did not support burning churches abroad, Aviner claimed that the issue is more complicated in Israel and called Christianity an idolatrous religion.

The [anti-Zionist] Satmar Rebbe, in one of his arguments against returning to the land of Israel, wrote that there is a commandment here to burn churches, and the failure to do so is a transgression and therefore, since Jews were not about to start burning churches, they should not immigrate to the land of Israel.
To be fair, Rabbi Aviner doesn't seem to be advocating that Jews actually rejoice at the Notre Dame fire, but his willingness to consider destroying churches as a potentially acceptable act as long as they're on Israeli territory is kind of appalling. (And churches in Israel have in fact been attacked.)
  #87  
Old 04-19-2019, 06:14 PM
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A prominent religious-Zionist rabbi known for his extremist views suggested on Wednesday that the fire that gutted the famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris earlier this week may have been divine retribution for the mass-burning of Talmud volumes by French Catholic priests in the city eight centuries earlier.
God's been quietly simmering about that one, huh ? That's why you shouldn't hold on to grudges, shit's toxic, you lose all sense of proportion with that stuff circling inside your head over and over.

Besides, any dog owner will tell you that you have only a brief window to scold your dog for shitting on the carpet. If you let them move away from it, do something else, then punish them ; they won't connect it to shitting on the carpet at all and learn the wrong thing. Like, right now we're not learning we shouldn't burn Talmuds - we're learning that we should maybe enforce fire codes in old buildings. Way to house-train, God !
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Old 04-19-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
I'll see your 19th-century Summer Palace and raise you some 13th-century Talmuds.


To be fair, Rabbi Aviner doesn't seem to be advocating that Jews actually rejoice at the Notre Dame fire, but his willingness to consider destroying churches as a potentially acceptable act as long as they're on Israeli territory is kind of appalling. (And churches in Israel have in fact been attacked.)
That's...even more insane. Good grief, people are strange.
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