Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-16-2019, 12:56 PM
aldiboronti is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Troynovant
Posts: 8,159

Is there any way an embassy can move a sanctuary seeker to its country?


OK, clearly Ecuador did not want to take Assange to its own country but suppose that had been their wish. Would the ambassador's car be considered Ecuadorian territory? Or suppose they had a large bag, put Assange into it and secured it with diplomatic seals? Would the British police have been within their rights to open it? I'm interested to know whether there's any way at all that somebody can be safely transferred from an embassy to its homeland.
  #2  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:02 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,093
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton...ecovery_system?
  #3  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:16 PM
DesertDog is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mesa, Ariz.
Posts: 5,282
Looks better than my first thought, a really big diplomatic pouch, with holes.
  #4  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:23 PM
Hermitian's Avatar
Hermitian is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Interesting. From the page:

"The increased availability of long-range helicopters such as the MH-53 Pave Low, HH-60 Pave Hawk and MH-47 Chinook, and the MV-22 Osprey and CV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, all with aerial refueling capability, caused this system to be used less often. In September 1996, the Air Force Special Operations Command ceased maintaining the capability to deploy this system."
  #5  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:31 PM
Jasmine's Avatar
Jasmine is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
OK, clearly Ecuador did not want to take Assange to its own country but suppose that had been their wish. Would the ambassador's car be considered Ecuadorian territory?
No, only the embassy itself is considered the territory of the ambassador's home nation. Though he himself would be immune to arrest, the car could be stopped and Assange removed and arrested because he himself has no diplomatic immunity. There would be protests, of course.
  #6  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:47 PM
muldoonthief's Avatar
muldoonthief is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 10,784
Previous thread, started right after Assange sought asylum. There was a lot of discussion about international law and such. If both countries are members of the Organization of American States, the answer would be "Yes" - the treaty specifically addresses transferring an asylum seeker from the "territorial State" (where he actually is) to the State granting asylum. The territorial State is actually required to allow the asylum seeker to be transferred.

The UK is obviously not a member of the OAS, but arguments were raised that the OAS treaties have pretty much become International Law.
  #7  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:51 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 25,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
No, only the embassy itself is considered the territory of the ambassador's home nation.
This again is a pervasive misperception. Diplomatic facilities are not in any way the territory of any other nation but the host nation. It is just that facilities are protected by law and treaty from entry, search, arrest, etc.
  #8  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:59 PM
Nava is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 40,897
In cases in which the people in question is not personally seeked by the authorities, but just ("just") part of a persecuted group, embassies and consulates have been known to help them travel by providing passports. It was done multiple times during WWII, for example.
  #9  
Old 04-16-2019, 05:55 PM
Balthisar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 11,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
In cases in which the people in question is not personally seeked by the authorities, but just ("just") part of a persecuted group, embassies and consulates have been known to help them travel by providing passports. It was done multiple times during WWII, for example.
I have the very, very rare privilege of correcting Nava's awesome English: "sought" instead of "seeked."
  #10  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:20 PM
Iggy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 5,311
A diplomatic bag is immune from search or seizure and a courier escorting a diplomatic bag is immune to search or arrest. See Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 (pdf link)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations
...5.The diplomatic courier, who shall be provided with an official document indicating his status and the number of packages constituting the diplomatic bag, shall be protected by the receiving State in the performance of his functions. He shall enjoy person inviolability and shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention.
...
If the state granting asylum to someone in its embassy designates that person as a courier of its diplomatic bag then he/she would be immune from arrest. Of course if the hosting nation disregards diplomatic norms and arrests him/her anyway then all bets are off.
  #11  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:27 PM
Aspidistra is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermitian View Post
Interesting. From the page:

"The increased availability of long-range helicopters such as the MH-53 Pave Low, HH-60 Pave Hawk and MH-47 Chinook, and the MV-22 Osprey and CV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, all with aerial refueling capability, caused this system to be used less often. In September 1996, the Air Force Special Operations Command ceased maintaining the capability to deploy this system."
So if the Ecuadorian embassy has a helipad on the roof ... problem solved!
__________________
It is easier to fall than to climb ... letting go for the fall brings a wonderful feeling of ease and power
- Katherine Kerr Daggerspell
  #12  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:30 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,093
I'm not sure what all the rules are for landing in or flying over a foreign country, but I have some vague recollection that they're more strict for the former than the latter, which is why I suggested the skyhook gimmick in the first place.
  #13  
Old 04-16-2019, 11:36 PM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,060
A 2015 article discusses a leaked Ecuadorian memo. https://www.wired.com/2015/09/ecuado...reedom-bag/amp
Quote:
"Assange could go out in disguise, attempt to cross the roof to the nearby helipad or get lost among people in [department store] Harrods," reads the Spanish-language document, titled "Scenarios for a Possible Exit for Assange."
And further says:

Quote:
In fact, British law enforcement seems to have expressly considered the bag possibility, as well as the other diplomatic gambits.
It goes through the various options. Assange was hoped up in another’s building than where the heliport is located.

Another article says that the UK refused to accept a possible diplomatic status so he would not have diplomatic immunity.

ISTM that once a country has accepted diplomatic status for an individual they can’t revoke the diplomatic immunity unilaterally but apparently they aren’t required to accept anyone.
  #14  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:46 AM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 25,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
ISTM that once a country has accepted diplomatic status for an individual they canít revoke the diplomatic immunity unilaterally but apparently they arenít required to accept anyone.
Countries can revoke the diplomatic status they have granted to an individual. Itís called being declared persona non grata, or being PNGed. Thatís how countries kick out spies working under diplomatic cover, or diplomats who just become unwelcome for whatever reason.
  #15  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:49 AM
Nava is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 40,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
I have the very, very rare privilege of correcting Nava's awesome English: "sought" instead of "seeked."
Damnit! And I can't even blame lack of coffee, I don't drink coffee!

Thanks.
__________________
Evidence gathered through the use of science is easily dismissed through the use of idiocy. - Czarcasm.
  #16  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:49 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Countries can revoke the diplomatic status they have granted to an individual. It’s called being declared persona non grata, or being PNGed. That’s how countries kick out spies working under diplomatic cover, or diplomats who just become unwelcome for whatever reason.
Yes, I know. However, it doesn’t seem like they can revoke the diplomatic immunity and arrest them.
  #17  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:54 AM
Aspidistra is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
Yes, I know. However, it doesnít seem like they can revoke the diplomatic immunity and arrest them.
And I suppose revoking it and shooting him is right out?
__________________
It is easier to fall than to climb ... letting go for the fall brings a wonderful feeling of ease and power
- Katherine Kerr Daggerspell
  #18  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:48 AM
Banksiaman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 902
I think you are missing the most obvious solution - tried and tested in real life, and nothing to do with that Bond movie guff.

Since Julian Assange got all manner of celebrity visitors the Ecuadorian government should have pretended they were making a film and used that as cover to smuggle him out in disguise, a la the movie Argo.

He could easily be dressed up as an authentic Ecuadorian:

hiding his distinctive white hair

supporting his team

celebrating New Year
  #19  
Old 04-17-2019, 07:13 AM
bob++ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Worcestershire UK
Posts: 6,491
The Ecuadorians have been increasingly impatient with Assange, and from looking at the videos and reports of his unpleasant behaviour in their embassy, it may be that his mental health has deteriorated in the seven years that he has been an unwanted lodger.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/16/p...ges/index.html

The truth may be difficult to come by - maybe someone will leak some emails so that we can see what truly has been going on.

Last edited by bob++; 04-17-2019 at 07:13 AM.
  #20  
Old 04-17-2019, 08:54 AM
Chefguy's Avatar
Chefguy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portlandia
Posts: 41,398
I was on assignment to the U.S. embassy in Vienna when Nadia Comăneci defected in 1989. She had made the overland trip from Bucharest mainly by foot and presented herself to the embassy in Vienna seeking asylum. She was then assisted by embassy personnel in getting to America.
  #21  
Old 04-17-2019, 08:56 AM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 25,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
Yes, I know. However, it doesnít seem like they can revoke the diplomatic immunity and arrest them.
Ah -- the part about "aren't required to accept anyone" in your previous post made me think you were talking about their visa status. My mistake.
  #22  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:41 AM
Billdo's Avatar
Billdo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Delectable City of Gotham
Posts: 4,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
I was on assignment to the U.S. embassy in Vienna when Nadia Comăneci defected in 1989. She had made the overland trip from Bucharest mainly by foot and presented herself to the embassy in Vienna seeking asylum. She was then assisted by embassy personnel in getting to America.
But in that case were the Austrian authorities trying to arrest her or otherwise interfere with her travel to the U.S. (or other countries through which she may have traveled)?
  #23  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:03 PM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,638
Don't forget the Americans (or their toadies) forced down the aircraft of the Ecuadorian government - in outright violation of diplomatic and international law - and forced it to land in Vienna and be searched when they were looking for Snowden. There was word he was on board, so diplomatic niceties were off the table. Possession is 9/10th of the law, the other tenth is Guantanamo.

Last edited by md2000; 04-17-2019 at 02:03 PM.
  #24  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:09 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 58,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
The article says this is used with B-17s. Where the heck did that come from?
  #25  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:30 PM
Chefguy's Avatar
Chefguy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portlandia
Posts: 41,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billdo View Post
But in that case were the Austrian authorities trying to arrest her or otherwise interfere with her travel to the U.S. (or other countries through which she may have traveled)?
Probably not, but Romania wasn't too happy about it. Embassy people picked her up in the dark of night, squirreled her away, and then got her on a plane out the next night. Very few people knew about it until she was safely on her way.
  #26  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:06 PM
Hari Seldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Trantor
Posts: 12,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Probably not, but Romania wasn't too happy about it. Embassy people picked her up in the dark of night, squirreled her away, and then got her on a plane out the next night. Very few people knew about it until she was safely on her way.
Probably not, but so what? They could hardly ask for extradition since the "crime" has to be a crime in both countries in order to be subject to extradition and I hardly think defection is a crime in Austria. I know that a friend of mine left Romania illegally and went to England, from where he made his way to Canada and, eventually, to the US. At no time did he imagine that the local authorities would try to return him to Romania.
  #27  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:23 PM
Chefguy's Avatar
Chefguy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portlandia
Posts: 41,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
Probably not, but so what? They could hardly ask for extradition since the "crime" has to be a crime in both countries in order to be subject to extradition and I hardly think defection is a crime in Austria. I know that a friend of mine left Romania illegally and went to England, from where he made his way to Canada and, eventually, to the US. At no time did he imagine that the local authorities would try to return him to Romania.
I think the worry was that Romanian agents might be on her trail, looking to scoop her up and return her to Romania. I didn't travel in those circles, so that's guesswork on my part.
  #28  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:18 PM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
And I suppose revoking it and shooting him is right out?
That’s actually ok. It falls under the so called “Hollywood exception.”
  #29  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:43 PM
Derleth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Missoula, Montana, USA
Posts: 21,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Probably not, but Romania wasn't too happy about it. Embassy people picked her up in the dark of night, squirreled her away, and then got her on a plane out the next night. Very few people knew about it until she was safely on her way.
10/10 defection.
  #30  
Old 04-18-2019, 04:31 AM
Springtime for Spacers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,949
It's been tried but the participant was unwilling. Nigerian politician Umaro Dikko fled following a coup. He was kidnapped in London and an attempt made to smuggle him back to Nigeria in a diplomatic crate. There was a witness to the kidnap so authorities were on the alert for such and attempt and were able to rescue him just before they flew him out.
  #31  
Old 04-18-2019, 04:59 AM
yendis is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
The article says this is used with B-17s. Where the heck did that come from?
Project COLDFEET, wiki.
  #32  
Old 04-18-2019, 05:14 AM
Wrenching Spanners is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
A diplomatic bag is immune from search or seizure and a courier escorting a diplomatic bag is immune to search or arrest. See Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 (pdf link)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations ...5.The diplomatic courier, who shall be provided with an official document indicating his status and the number of packages constituting the diplomatic bag, shall be protected by the receiving State in the performance of his functions. He shall enjoy person inviolability and shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention.
Quote:
If the state granting asylum to someone in its embassy designates that person as a courier of its diplomatic bag then he/she would be immune from arrest. Of course if the hosting nation disregards diplomatic norms and arrests him/her anyway then all bets are off.
It would seem like that "in the performance of his functions" creates a nice big loophole for any country that wishes to exploit it. I can imagine the Foreign Secretary stating "Of course Mr. Assange will be allowed to go about his duties as a diplomatic courier. Just as soon as he serves his sentence for jumping bail, which of course is not a function of a diplomatic courier."

Also, paragraph 4 of the article:
Quote:
4.The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use.
So putting a fugitive into a diplomatic bag is out.
  #33  
Old 04-18-2019, 05:18 AM
Wrenching Spanners is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post The article says this is used with B-17s. Where the heck did that come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yendis View Post
Project COLDFEET, wiki.
For a fictional demonstration, watch the John Wayne movie, The Green Berets.
  #34  
Old 04-18-2019, 03:04 PM
sps49sd is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
For a fictional demonstration, watch the John Wayne movie, The Green Berets.
A real demonstration ends the Bond movie Thunderball.
  #35  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:36 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 82,391
They never got around to using this: http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net...80575_700b.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
...Also, paragraph 4 of the article:

4.The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use.

So putting a fugitive into a diplomatic bag is out.
Although, when the British closed the Libyan Embassy in London following the 1984 shooting death of a police officer by a shot fired from within the embassy, it was widely thought that weapon used had been removed from the UK via diplomatic bag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher
  #36  
Old 04-20-2019, 08:12 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back.
Posts: 28,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
They never got around to using this: http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net...80575_700b.jpg

Love it!
  #37  
Old 04-20-2019, 08:17 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 58,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Love it!
Indeed, but they need some air holes drilled in that plywood.
  #38  
Old 04-20-2019, 09:48 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back.
Posts: 28,657

Is there any way an embassy can move a sanctuary seeker to its country?


You're assuming they want Julian in Ecuador …

Last edited by Northern Piper; 04-20-2019 at 09:49 PM.
  #39  
Old 04-20-2019, 10:08 PM
griffin1977 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Looks better than my first thought, a really big diplomatic pouch, with holes.
Its been tried.
  #40  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:22 AM
alphaboi867 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: the Keystone State
Posts: 14,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
OK, clearly Ecuador did not want to take Assange to its own country but suppose that had been their wish. Would the ambassador's car be considered Ecuadorian territory?...
It wouldn't be considered Ecuadorian territory (neither is the embassy, that's a myth), but British police wouldn't be able to just stop & search a diplomatic vehicle. The problem is that the Ecuadorian Embassy in London is just a suite in an office building, not it's own compound so there wouldn't have been any way to get Assange from the embassy itself to the car without leaving the embassy (& thus subjecting himself to British jurisdiction).
__________________
No Gods, No Masters
  #41  
Old Yesterday, 01:14 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 82,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
See post 30.
  #42  
Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 82,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Indeed, but they need some air holes drilled in that plywood.
"Need." That's adorable.
  #43  
Old Yesterday, 01:35 PM
hajario's Avatar
hajario is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 15,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
You're assuming they want Julian in Ecuador Ö
No. The OP specifically addresses that.
  #44  
Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 58,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
"Need." That's adorable.
You've lost me there.
  #45  
Old Today, 01:57 AM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post

Also, paragraph 4 of the article:


So putting a fugitive into a diplomatic bag is out.

Not really. There are rules stating what the "diplomatic bag" (which can as well be a crate) can contain, but there is no procedure allowing the host country to verify what there's actually inside it.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017