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  #101  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:04 PM
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The infighting is a big whatever. Once it's done it's done, and when it's over only a fool would hold enough of a grudge to not support the Democratic candidate. Of course, if the Democrats actually had a legislative agenda they could stop trying to pick a star and get on with it.
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  #102  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
the centrists in the Democratic party are a very small, almost non-existent fraction...just like in the Republican party.

This is incorrect:

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-...oderate-party/
Quote:
Gallup found that by a fairly solid-looking 54-41 percent (with five percent expressing no opinion) of Democrats would prefer that their party move toward the middle.
But among Republicans and Repub-leaners, by an even wider 57-37 percent margin, want their party to move further to the right.

Not that you would ever guess this from who makes the most noise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I'm honestly thinking that Bernie might be the one that can win against Trump, like it or not.

The reason is that the established is already trying to smear him, again, and his base is wise to it. They feel slighted, and, I believe, are less willing to vote for anyone else that might win. They are going to blame Biden and Corporate Dems.

This is extortion, and perfectly illustrates why the Bernie crowd makes me so angry. Gallup shows that most Democrats (never mind the independents we need to win) prefer that the party move to the right, but the minority who feels the opposite basically threatens to blow the whole thing up if they don’t get exactly their way.
  #103  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:58 PM
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Great, just what we needed, the extreme center.

"What do we want""
"Justice and freedom!"
"When do we want it?"
"Well, pretty soon, if its not a lot of trouble.....Don't want to be all pushy, or anything..."

Passive-aggressive politics, without the aggression. Maybe if we ask real nicely, the evil men who run things will give us a turn.
  #104  
Old 04-21-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...to characterizes this as "They rarely try to get rid of a Republican" is about as disingenuous as you can get. And I have no way of independently verifying your statement either.



The progressives, by investing in a progressive future and fighting for policies that will make the world a better place, are turning the party into something more people will vote for, improving the chances of regaining the Senate and keeping the House. They are being magnanimous.

Its all about the spin.
Hardly.

Ro Khanna: Ran against Mike Honda, Democratic Party, he served in Congress from 2001 to 2017. Solid Blue District.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: ran against- ten-term incumbent Congressman, Democratic Caucus Chair Joe Crowley, solid blue district.

Etc.

Progressives almost always run in solid blue districts.

Show me a couple who won in a purple or red district?

And no, more people dont vote for radicals, they vote for moderates.
  #105  
Old 04-21-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
..."they rarely try to get rid of a Republican" is not a fair characterization of "targeting safe blue districts". For a committee that was only formed in 2017 I'm not seeing the problem. If they put AOC in a purple district and she lost then she wouldn't be in the position of doing all the good she is doing at the moment. How is AOC being the only Dem politician to come close to Donald Trump in social media reach a bad thing?

Because we want someone like Trump in our Party?
  #106  
Old 04-21-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
If progressives tried to run a progressive candidate in a purple district, conservative Democrats would say, "Excellent, good job, that's where you should be running!"

FUCK NO THEY WOULDN'T.

Over and over conservative Democrats complain about purity tests and talk about how they need to be free to be conservative, so they can win in purple districts. If a progressive tries to run in a purple district, the conservatives smack them down HARD for not being realistic and for guaranteeing a GOP win....
There are no "conservative" Democrats. Conservative Democrats are centrists.


guaranteeing a GOP win- exactly.

Think about it.
  #107  
Old 04-21-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
This is incorrect:


This is extortion, and perfectly illustrates why the Bernie crowd makes me so angry. Gallup shows that most Democrats (never mind the independents we need to win) prefer that the party move to the right, but the minority who feels the opposite basically threatens to blow the whole thing up if they don’t get exactly their way.
Wow. Easy does it

I'm voting for who I think would be the best president. I voted for Hillary, and I will vote for whomever wins the primary. Don't you go making those mean faces at me.

Bernie will support the next candidate if it's not him.

Jesus. Half of these kids wouldn't even be motivated to vote in the first place if it weren't for him.
  #108  
Old 04-21-2019, 01:33 PM
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I just want to say two things.

This isn't the 90's any more. I think, no matter what, there are going to be growing pains no matter what. But I think we need to reassess certain things that Bernie addresses.

There will still be checks and balances.
  #109  
Old 04-21-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Great, just what we needed, the extreme center.

"What do we want""
"Justice and freedom!"
"When do we want it?"
"Well, pretty soon, if its not a lot of trouble.....Don't want to be all pushy, or anything..."

Passive-aggressive politics, without the aggression. Maybe if we ask real nicely, the evil men who run things will give us a turn.

This is what the left believes, because they cannot conceive (as Obama noted) that anyone might have a different conception of what “justice and freedom” mean.
  #110  
Old 04-21-2019, 03:14 PM
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Ooh. Snap.
  #111  
Old 04-21-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Hardly.
...hardly what?

Quote:
Ro Khanna: Ran against Mike Honda, Democratic Party, he served in Congress from 2001 to 2017. Solid Blue District.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: ran against- ten-term incumbent Congressman, Democratic Caucus Chair Joe Crowley, solid blue district.
I'm...not seeing the problem?

Quote:
Progressives almost always run in solid blue districts.
When you say "Progressives almost always run in solid blue districts" what you actually meant to say was "Justice Democrats ran in solid blue districts in 2017?"

Because once again its all about the spin. And you've been spinning this like a top.

Quote:
Show me a couple who won in a purple or red district?
I don't need too. I haven't claimed that they have.

Quote:
And no, more people dont vote for radicals, they vote for moderates.
Which is why Khanna and Ocasio-Cortez both lost. Obviously.

Quote:
Because we want someone like Trump in our Party?
If you don't want someone like Trump in the party then don't vote for anyone like Trump. But having a strong social media reach is not like having Trump in the party. It isn't even in the same ballpark. Or the same planet.
  #112  
Old 04-21-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post



I'm...not seeing the problem?

...

Which is why Khanna and Ocasio-Cortez both lost. Obviously.

..
No, you're not. Obviously. Apparently have a handful of progressives in Congress is better than having the Dems win both houses of Congress.


There were in districts so blue the Dems could have put forwards Bozo the clown. Who is dead.
  #113  
Old 04-21-2019, 05:07 PM
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No, you're not. Obviously. Apparently have a handful of progressives in Congress is better than having the Dems win both houses of Congress.
...did having a handful of progressives in Congress stop the Dems from winning the House? If Joe Crowley had won, if Mike Honda had run uncontested, would the Dems have won the Senate? Can you quantify this somehow?

Quote:
There were in districts so blue the Dems could have put forwards Bozo the clown. Who is dead.
So they were the perfect districts for the Justice Democrats to begin their strategy of "electing better Democrats." The people of New York's 14th congressional district didn't vote for Bozo the clown. They didn't vote for Joe Crowley. The people voted for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She was the first to challenge Crowley since 2004. She beat him fair and square. I'm not seeing the problem. You haven't explained what the problem is. Whats the problem?
  #114  
Old 04-21-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...did having a handful of progressives in Congress stop the Dems from winning the House? If Joe Crowley had won, if Mike Honda had run uncontested, would the Dems have won the Senate? Can you quantify this somehow?



So they were the perfect districts for the Justice Democrats to begin their strategy of "electing better Democrats." The people of New York's 14th congressional district didn't vote for Bozo the clown. They didn't vote for Joe Crowley. The people voted for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She was the first to challenge Crowley since 2004. She beat him fair and square. I'm not seeing the problem. You haven't explained what the problem is. Whats the problem?

If the Party had more money to spend on the Senate races....


Better?


I have explained several times. Wasting time & energy in infighting among Dems rather than beatings Republicans.
  #115  
Old 04-21-2019, 05:30 PM
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If the Party had more money to spend on the Senate races....
...can you quantify this? How much more money would there have been to spend, when would that money have been available and would it have made a difference?

Quote:
Better?
Nope.

Quote:
I have explained several times. Wasting time & energy in infighting among Dems rather than beatings Republicans.
I don't think the process of choosing the best candidate to represent a district is a waste of time and energy. And I don't think the primary process is correctly characterized as "infighting." This is all entirely normal. The people of the 17th were given a choice and they made a choice. Whats the problem with that?

Its all about the spin with you. I'm still not seeing the problem.
  #116  
Old 04-21-2019, 05:52 PM
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I have explained several times. Wasting time & energy in infighting among Dems rather than beatings Republicans.
I'm all for beating republicans. I'm not Bernie Or Bust. But I honestly don't think old school Democrats are doing themselves any favors when they act as if they are entitled to the gig.

Having secret meetings about what to do about his candidacy, getting people to wage a campaign against him. The knowledge of the DNC trying to tip the scale.. even if it came from the Ruskies, they got caught. People don't trust the establishment, they don't trust the media.

This is having the opposite effect than intended.

As it stands, Bernie has the best chance at beating Trump in my opinion.

Last edited by MyFootsZZZ; 04-21-2019 at 05:53 PM.
  #117  
Old Today, 01:07 AM
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Sanders followers are accusing Biden of being a creepy pedophile.

We need to keep this Issue based and Sanders needs to keep a leash on his supporters.

All he needs to do is make a public statement to that effect.
Cite?
  #118  
Old Today, 01:14 AM
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Trivia Question: What do Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin have in common?

Answer: Had the votes for Jill Stein all gone to Hillary, these three states would have gone for Hillary, who would have then become the 45th President of the U.S.A. (OTOH, Trump would have won New Mexico, Colorado, Maine, New Hampshire, Minnesota and Nevada (and PA, MI, WI back again) if he had the Gary Johnson votes.)



Or just the name of the URL! Thanks to CarnalK's post, I clicked to the article. Shameful.



I'm also afraid of Trump re-election. You're one of the good ones, XT. It's a shame that the dinbats who voted for Stein and Brnie Brats who didn't bother to vote at all are humored while you, a Hillary voter, are criticized.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Offhand I can think of one regular poster here who supported Bernie in the primaries and then voted Stein or didn't vote in the general, and he gets all kinds of shit for it (as he should).
  #119  
Old Today, 01:17 AM
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According to your own quotes of stuff you're complaining about from your Facebook friends, what they're calling mainstream Democrats is "corporate-friendly" and "pro-corporate" and "bankrolled by special interests" and so forth. That can be quite truly said of many politicians (including numerous Democratic ones) without implying that they're anywhere close to Trump-family levels of corruption.



As I pointed out to XT, the problem with your fretting about the "purity brigade" is chiefly the double standard you apply to it. You don't want left-liberals to criticize mainstream Democrats but you as a mainstream Democrat are fine with constantly complaining about left-liberals.

If you want more party unity and less infighting, try practicing phrases like "I see your point but..." and "I don't think Politician X is perfect but I think s/he would be a more realistic option for actually being able to implement some of these changes" and "While I admire [some particular lefty position] of Politician Y, I don't think s/he would be a successful candidate overall" and so on and so forth. If you don't want the emotional temperature to be so high in intra-party discussions, stop having meltdowns all over the place about how terrible the other folks are being.
Thank you, Kimstu. Not for the first time, you have made the same point I made in the post I deleted, except without all the profanity and capital letters.
  #120  
Old Today, 01:23 AM
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I wasn't going to really comment on this, as there didn't seem much point, but as my name has been dragged in again, I figured...what the hell. So, your suggestion is I (me, XT ) should join the Democratic party and work from within to change them to be more in line with what I think they should do? I should, what? Act as a mediator between the establishment, the liberals and the progressives as...what? None of the above? And they will, of course, listen to me and take my suggestions as serious as, oh...say you have? And others on this message board?



I'm sorry, but that is just so funny that I broke up laughing when I read it. It's the trite sort of platitudes adults often tell kids. Except I'm not a kid. I vote Democrat both in my state house positions and, of course, for president, but there is no place for me in their (your presumably) party. The Democrats want me every bit as little as the Republicans do, and for much the same reason...I don't fit in. And me joining would be like me trying to hold the tides back. So, I have to hope YOU folks can hold your shit together long enough to unseat Trump at least. I have zero ability to affect that. I can only try and vote for whoever gets the nomination and hope the Dems, for once, can not snatch defeat from the slavering jaws of victory...again.
OK, getting off topic here, but if you consistently vote Democrat, then you're pretty much a Democrat according to any reasonable definition*. I don't see what you're gaining by refusing to participate in the primaries of the only party you'd consider voting for, but you do you. It doesn't matter how little "the Democrats" might "want" you, they can't stop you from registering Dem and voting for the candidate of your choice.

*on a related note, if you are a United States Senator and have been a member of the Senate Democratic Caucus for a quarter century, you are also a Democrat, full stop.
  #121  
Old Today, 01:44 AM
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Just one more respectful question, trying to understand XT's point of view:

Assume that, as the Democratic primary in your State nears, the field has narrowed to two candidates. You believe that one would have a far better chance than the other of beating Trump. The laws in your State allow you to vote in the Democratic primary without having to register as a Democrat. Do you participate in the primary in order to maximize the chance of Trump losing, or not, and why?

Hell, imagine that Trump and Mitt Romney are running neck-and-neck in the Republican race, and you likewise have the option of voting in the Republican primary. Would you do so?
  #122  
Old Today, 01:56 AM
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If the Party had more money to spend on the Senate races....


Better?


I have explained several times. Wasting time & energy in infighting among Dems rather than beatings Republicans.
So, if all the money that was donated to AOC had been sent to, say, Claire McCaskill, instead, things might have been different? Well, AOC supporters aren't going to give that money to Claire McCaskill if they're not giving it to AOC. They might donate it to refugee aid or spend it on weed, but I guarantee you donating to corporate-backed politicians isn't on their list of discretionary spending options. So that's not any net loss of money for moderate Senate campaigns. And I'm not going to look it up right now, but I'm guessing AOC's primary campaign budget was insignificant relative to any establishment Senate campaign.

So, yep, still not seeing your point about how replacing lame Democrats with good ones hurts the Democratic Party.
  #123  
Old Today, 01:59 AM
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And, getting to the OP:

I have tremendous respect for Obama, but his legacy was severely marred by his support for the Democratic establishment's efforts to anoint Clinton as the nominee long before voting began. That...didn't work out well.
  #124  
Old Today, 02:02 AM
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Oh, I see plenty of Bernie Sanders followers with their knives out for Beto. They accuse him of being in the pocket of Big Oil, even though he constantly talks about getting off fossil fuels within the next ten years.
How much money has Beto taken from oil companies? (Serious question, I have no idea). If it's a nontrivial amount, that's a legitimate criticism, regardless of what he might "constantly talk" about.
  #125  
Old Today, 02:11 AM
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Bernie Sanders himself attacked ThinkProgress the other day for reasons that seemed pretty trivial to me.
Seems like a reasonable thing to point out, yet thin-skinned Bernie called it a bad-faith smear.
Well, did he consistently use "millionaires and billionaires" in his stump speeches before he himself was outed as a millionaire, and then switched to consistently using only "billionaires"? If so, that's a reasonable thing to point out, maybe, if you have a deadline and no real news to write about.

Or has he always used the terms interchangeably, and they just cherry-picked some videos to take a cheap shot by implying that he had shifted? If so, that's a bad-faith smear.

I will note, per your linked article, that Sanders' outrage was at least not entirely self-serving:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
“I and other Democratic candidates are running campaigns based on principles and ideas and not engaging in mudslinging or personal attacks on each other,” he wrote. “Meanwhile, the Center for American Progress is using its resources to smear Senator Booker, Senator Warren and myself, among others. This is hardly the way to build unity, or to win the general election.”
  #126  
Old Today, 02:39 AM
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How much money has Beto taken from oil companies?
Zero. At least knowingly. Unless he's willing to go to prison.

There were some complaints last year that workers in the industry were the largest source of donations, but it's the largest industry in Texas, so that will be true for pretty much any candidate in Texas.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; Today at 02:43 AM.
  #127  
Old Today, 02:57 AM
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You are under the impression that it is illegal for corporations to donate to political candidates? That is not my understanding. Please explain.
  #128  
Old Today, 06:39 AM
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You are under the impression that it is illegal for corporations to donate to political candidates? That is not my understanding. Please explain.
I think he's saying that unless he took some secret cash and didn't report it - that would be illegal.
  #129  
Old Today, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
So, if all the money that was donated to AOC had been sent to, say, Claire McCaskill, instead, things might have been different? Well, AOC supporters aren't going to give that money to Claire McCaskill if they're not giving it to AOC. They might donate it to refugee aid or spend it on weed, but I guarantee you donating to corporate-backed politicians isn't on their list of discretionary spending options. So that's not any net loss of money for moderate Senate campaigns. And I'm not going to look it up right now, but I'm guessing AOC's primary campaign budget was insignificant relative to any establishment Senate campaign.

So, yep, still not seeing your point about how replacing lame Democrats with good ones hurts the Democratic Party.
How about her opponent?

See, I dont see those as "lame" nor the progressives as "good".
  #130  
Old Today, 09:13 AM
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How much money has Beto taken from oil companies? (Serious question, I have no idea). If it's a nontrivial amount, that's a legitimate criticism, regardless of what he might "constantly talk" about.
Why is it a legitimate criticism? Do GOP voters obsess over this? I haven't seen it.

What you seem to be saying is that if Dem candidates hobble themselves by not accepting donations, so that they lose, that's a Good Thing.

It's not a legitimate criticism, it's a fucking Purity Test. Which we have to stop.
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