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  #151  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
it just becomes tedious to me when it takes up the whole post.
Well, as long as the world is arranging itself to suit your needs, then...
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You'll note that my sarcasm was one, little throwaway, three-word sentence.
I do beg your pardon, I'm new at this. So you're saying a lighter hand is called for?
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Whatever "privilege" might be it doesn't manifest itself on a discussion board.
That is, completely unsarcastically-speaking, pure bullshit. Privilege manifests itself every single time a White person posts "Well, I don't see skin colour," for one thing.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-17-2018 at 11:18 AM.
  #152  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:44 AM
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At the end of the day, there are very few transgender actors and even fewer roles as a transgender person. I can't think of a transgendered actor who's even on the B-list though I welcome correction. If movie studios hold out for a transgendered star for any movie that portrays a transgendered person, the movie will likely never get made. The same can't be said about black roles, black people being if anything slightly overrepresented in SAG, or even Latino roles, who are markedly underrepresented in SAG.
  #153  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:03 PM
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I can't think of a transgendered actor who's even on the B-list though I welcome correction.
Laverne Cox?
  #154  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:32 PM
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Yeah, she's verging on A-list even. Definitely slipped my mind. Not suitable for his particular role, of course.
  #155  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:33 PM
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Well, as long as the world is arranging itself to suit your needs, then
Nope, it was neither request nor an expectation. Merely an observation

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...I do beg your pardon, I'm new at this. So you're saying a lighter hand is called for?
No, read carefully.

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That is, completely unsarcastically-speaking, pure bullshit. Privilege manifests itself every single time a White person posts "Well, I don't see skin colour," for one thing.
We disagree clearly. I don't think ascribing a position based on skin colour is fair or helpful
  #156  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
We disagree clearly. I don't think ascribing a position based on skin colour is fair or helpful
In this case, it is probably both fair and helpful. If almost every person who says "I don't see skin color" is white, how is it either fair or helpful to ignore that fact?
  #157  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Nope, it was neither request nor an expectation. Merely an observation

No, read carefully.

We disagree clearly. I don't think ascribing a position based on skin colour is fair or helpful
God, get a room you two.
  #158  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:31 PM
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God, get a room you two.
You are right (and have perfect comic timing......tricky on a text based medium)

An unnecessary diversion so I'll end my hijack there.
  #159  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:12 PM
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Now it looks like the movie might not get made at all.
  #160  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:59 PM
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In this case, it is probably both fair and helpful. If almost every person who says "I don't see skin color" is white, how is it either fair or helpful to ignore that fact?
As a white, I've been told my whole life that I shouldn't see skin color.
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  #161  
Old 07-17-2018, 10:59 PM
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I wonder how far this being offended if an exact doppelgänger isn’t playing a role is going to spread. Is it too late to unplug the internet?
  #162  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:06 PM
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Does this mean that The Rock shouldn't have played an amputee in Skyscraper?
  #163  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:31 PM
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Does this mean that The Rock shouldn't have played an amputee in Skyscraper?
Apparently so.
  #164  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:26 AM
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Nope, it was neither request nor an expectation. Merely an observation

No, read carefully.

We disagree clearly. I don't think ascribing a position based on skin colour is fair or helpful
And that disagreement is based on ignorance. The idea that you can be colorblind and remove your cultural influences has been shown to be false, and hasn't been seriously considered valid since the 1990s. Your opinion is one that is largely only held in 2018 by white people who have not experienced discrimination and stay in a bubble with others of the same kind. To claim that your privilege cannot affect you when you are speaking on a message board is profoundly ignorant, since privilege primarily manifests in your words and actions.

You have in fact been outdated at best with all of your arguments in this thread. You can even look at the OP to find that trans people do not accept that there are no "trans roles." That they do not accept cisgender women playing trans men. If a character is trans, they want them played by a trans person.

And, for goodness sake, you called monstro--an actual black woman--racist for trying to explain things. You're choosing to use the alt-right tactic of calling the person a racist because they are trying to educate you on racial issues. If a black person tells you about racism against black people, they tend to know what they are talking about.

So, when you claim you are describing the world as it is, why should anyone think that is the case? Why shouldn't we believe that it's just the world as viewed through your bubble, the bubble where you actively dismiss people with actual experience as racists?
  #165  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:54 AM
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And, for goodness sake, you called monstro--an actual black woman--racist for trying to explain things. You're choosing to use the alt-right tactic of calling the person a racist because they are trying to educate you on racial issues. If a black person tells you about racism against black people, they tend to know what they are talking about.
I don't buy your unsubstantiated claims and in the unlikely event that anyone wonders what I think on those points they can look back through the thread.
I said I wasn't going to hijack any further and i won't but nor will I let wilful misrepresentations be left unchallenged.

I did not call monstro a "racist" for trying to explain things.

This is what I very clearly did say to them

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monstro, that's your prejudice at work there. You need to accept that some people genuinely are not bothered about shades of colour, nor exact ethnicity and don't "see" them to any meaningful extent and it does not spring from, nor is it indicative of, a racist mindset.
And I ended my response thus..

Quote:
If you yourself are black and are sensitive to this, I understand that and perhaps if you are USA-based then your racial sensitively is calibrated very differently to mine. But just as I respect your experiences and behaviours, I think you also have a duty to take people at face value when they say they have a genuine and benign non-reaction and non-interest to skin shades and ethnicity.
Happy to put the record straight.
  #166  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:17 AM
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A 'genuine and benign non-reaction and non-interest to skin shades and ethnicity' would be all very well in a world where no-one was being treated differently due to skin shade or ethnicity. Unfortunately, that is not this world. In this world, people are regularly treated differently because of skin colour and ethnic origin, sometimes considerably so. Stating that you have no reaction and no interest doesn't mean that you're not causing the problem so it's all OK, it means you're not seeing that there is a problem.
  #167  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:11 AM
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This situation is now a perfect example on why perfect is the enemy of good.
  #168  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:15 AM
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I dunno, considering I’ve seen trans people argue that the original casting would’ve promoted the idea that trans men are just women playing dress up, I’m not so sure they mind. (IE I’m not so sure they saw the movie as necessarily a “good” to begin with.)

Last edited by Leaper; 07-18-2018 at 11:16 AM.
  #169  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:24 AM
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I dunno, considering I’ve seen trans people argue that the original casting would’ve promoted the idea that trans men are just women playing dress up, I’m not so sure they mind. (IE I’m not so sure they saw the movie as necessarily a “good” to begin with.)
Seeing as how the main character is a criminal who made a living off exploiting women, it was never going to be the most empowering trans centered movie regardless.
  #170  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:33 PM
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In the end the movie will be shaped into Tub and Rug, the story of the founder of a wholesale home furnishings empire.
  #171  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:14 PM
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This situation is now a perfect example on why perfect is the enemy of good.
That sort of assumes that the movie, as envisioned by Johansson, could legitimately be considered "good." My trans friends who had been following the story were apprehensive beyond just Johansson's casting (apparently, an earlier version of the script explicitly identified Dante as a lesbian, for one example) and Johansson's tone-deaf responses to the controversy didn't help.

Just reporting from the small corner of the trans community with which I'm personally familiar, the feeling seems more "bullet dodged" than "opportunity missed." A high-profile, pro-trans mainstream film would be great. A high-profile, mainstream film that perpetuates stereotypes and presents caricatured takes on trans lives would be worse than no film at all.
  #172  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:52 PM
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A relevant 2017 article from the LA Times about authenticity in casting, mentioning Johannson's Ghost in the Shell controversy, among others. It focuses a little more on theatre than film, but it's a good overview of the issue.
  #173  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:21 PM
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Just reporting from the small corner of the trans community with which I'm personally familiar, the feeling seems more "bullet dodged" than "opportunity missed." A high-profile, pro-trans mainstream film would be great. A high-profile, mainstream film that perpetuates stereotypes and presents caricatured takes on trans lives would be worse than no film at all.
What? There was an assumed perpetuating of stereotypes and presentation of caricatures? I'd be curious to know how your trans community corner thought those were gonna be in the movie so early in development. Like I said above, despite the apparent colorfulness of the main character, this person was a f-to-m trans who ran a sex business. What stereotype is that perpetuating?

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-18-2018 at 02:23 PM.
  #174  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:29 PM
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What? There was an assumed perpetuating of stereotypes and presentation of caricatures? I'd be curious to know how your trans community corner thought those were gonna be in the movie so early in development. Like I said above, despite the apparent colorfulness of the main character, this person was a f-to-m trans who ran a sex business. What stereotype is that perpetuating?
I'd say there was more of a "concern" than an "assumption." There were some red flags raised for friends of mine, including but not limited to Johansson being in the lead role. The concern was that these flags indicated an overall failure on the part of the production company to understand the issues they were trying to turn into a movie. So far as I'm aware, there was no specific objection to making a movie about this particular individual, unsavory aspects and all - the concern about stereotypes was less about the particulars of Dante Gill's life, and more about the way they would present Gill's gender identity and expression. A common concern I've heard, for example, was that Johansson would be playing Dante as a butch (and soft butch at that, given the actor involved) lesbian, with an eye towards serving up some girl-girl action for straight, cis audiences. These concerns may have been unfounded, but Johansson did very little to reassure the community that she actually cared about anyone in it (see her dismissive tweet immediately after the controversy broke) and Hollywood’s done a generally shitty job (with some exceptions) at portraying trans people in a respectful, non-exploitative manner. So, there wasn’t a lot of high hopes in my social circle for this going in, and I don’t imagine a lot of concern that the project has crashed and burned now. As regards Canuck’s “perfect being the enemy of the good,” post, there was very little expectation that this would rise to the level of “good” in the first place.
  #175  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:56 PM
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Well, I don't know how happy your friends will be about it, but I bet we won't see anyone attempt another trans centered movie for a long time now.
  #176  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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Well, I don't know how happy your friends will be about it, but I bet we won't see anyone attempt another trans centered movie for a long time now.
How much?
  #177  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:00 PM
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20 internet dollars.
  #178  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:05 PM
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I mean if you include all indy shit, sure something will be made. But it's pretty obvious to me that no big picture is going to be made. There's no real trans star on the horizon to pull this into mainstream.
  #179  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:26 PM
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That sounds circular, to me. You can't have a trans movie without a trans star, and you can't have a trans star without a trans movie, therefore neither will ever exist.
  #180  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:37 PM
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That sounds circular, to me. You can't have a trans movie without a trans star, and you can't have a trans star without a trans movie, therefore neither will ever exist.
It is circular. It's also true. And the fact that transgendered people make up such a small percentage of the population means it's probably going to continue to be true.
  #181  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:19 PM
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Well, I don't know how happy your friends will be about it, but I bet we won't see anyone attempt another trans centered movie for a long time now.
First off, that's stupid. There will continue to be independent movies by trans people.

But, yes, it may discourage Hollywood from making more movies like this. What you fail to grasp is that is a good, if not perfect, outcome. In the current system, they would only be made so that some actor could get some sort of praise for playing a "difficult role," while exploiting the story of a trans person.

I mean, look at the subject of this movie. I'm sure the guy has a story to tell, but look at how neatly it fits into the stereotype that trans people are sexual deviants. It's not about the struggles of some trans athlete or model who is perfectly wholesome. It's about the guy who started all those "happy ending" massage parlors. The title makes it clear that's the reason to watch--to see the seedy, sexy underbelly.

Sure, maybe a version where trans people are in charge and make sure that it's not exploitative or perpetuating stereotypes would have been ideal. But I fully understand why shutting it down entirely is acceptable. Better to not have any mainstream movies than to have Hollywood put out this trash.

Like Moana, there will eventually be a movie where they do listen and try to make things work. Until then, it's fine if trans stories are only in independent films. Better to tell their stories accurately than try to reach a mass audience.

The person who actually taps into this and pulls it off is going to be quite well-off, since basically the entire social justice crowd will want to go see it.
  #182  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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Just reporting from the small corner of the trans community with which I'm personally familiar, the feeling seems more "bullet dodged" than "opportunity missed." A high-profile, pro-trans mainstream film would be great. A high-profile, mainstream film that perpetuates stereotypes and presents caricatured takes on trans lives would be worse than no film at all.
Fair enough. I personally believe that more exposure to the concept that transexuals are just people would be good for society in a general sort of way. Due to human xenophobia, people fear what they don't understand, and the easiest way to help them understand is teach them in a way that they might listen. So even though it probably would still be full of caricatured takes and stereotypes (because it's still a Hollywood movie) I still think it would probably be better for both the trans community and society as a whole if it was made.

Then again, I'm a cis guy who has never even heard of the subject of this movie, so take my opinion with a large grain of salt. That said, I agree with CarnalK, this situation will cause a chilling effect on future movies focused on trans people.
  #183  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:35 PM
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Quoth CarnalK:

It is circular. It's also true.
But the same argument could also be used to "prove" that there will never be a star born after the year 2000. Which is clearly absurd. The flaw, of course, is that not every movie has a star in the lead, and not every star has been the lead in a movie.

Eventually, a studio will make a movie with a star in the lead, and a transgendered actor in one of the supporting roles, and that actor's career will grow from there. Or they'll make a movie about a transgendered character, and find a previously-unknown trans actor to star in it. Or maybe it'll be a movie for which the main character's gender identity and/or physical sex doesn't even matter, and it just happens to be a trans actor who passes the audition.
  #184  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:54 PM
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But the same argument could also be used to "prove" that there will never be a star born after the year 2000. Which is clearly absurd. The flaw, of course, is that not every movie has a star in the lead, and not every star has been the lead in a movie.

Eventually, a studio will make a movie with a star in the lead, and a transgendered actor in one of the supporting roles, and that actor's career will grow from there. Or they'll make a movie about a transgendered character, and find a previously-unknown trans actor to star in it. Or maybe it'll be a movie for which the main character's gender identity and/or physical sex doesn't even matter, and it just happens to be a trans actor who passes the audition.
No, that probably won't happen and if it does it it won't be the beginning of a trend. There's just too few transgender actors to build any real momentum with it.
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