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  #101  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:41 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Kennedy1960 View Post
Another fact is that our populace at large is poorly educated and knows little about politics beyond personalities.
Welcome to Planet Earth, hope you enjoy your stay!

Now seriously, I think that's true for anything decided at a level bigger than a single-home family, and sometimes even at that level.
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Last edited by Nava; 07-16-2018 at 01:42 PM.
  #102  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:45 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by betterlifethroughchemistry View Post
Please expand upon that statement. As someone who does feel proud to be an American, it really upsets me to see you feel that way...'surrounded by a nation that hates me and will always hate me' is a really powerful thing to say and I would hope we could discuss this further to understand your feelings...
I can't promise he meant this, but: DT is an atheist. To a lot of Americans, that's worse than being a baby-abusing cannibal.
  #103  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:53 PM
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Inigo Montoya Inigo Montoya is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
I can't promise he meant this, but: DT is an atheist. To a lot of Americans, that's worse than being a baby-abusing cannibal.
Which is really unfair, given the cannibalism thing has been largely brought under control.
  #104  
Old 07-16-2018, 02:36 PM
DKW DKW is offline
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Bewildered would be a more accurate word. Pretty much my entire worldview is a complete 180 from what's accepted as normal or even mandatory in this country. I honestly feel like an alien sometimes. Needless to say, I'm in no mood to travel anywhere on vacation, and if I ever do, I'm definitely leaving the "USA" shirt behind. Yeah, it's just three white letters on a plain blue background, but no sense taking the chance.
  #105  
Old 07-16-2018, 04:04 PM
Kennedy1960 Kennedy1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Welcome to Planet Earth, hope you enjoy your stay!

Now seriously, I think that's true for anything decided at a level bigger than a single-home family, and sometimes even at that level.
Would you say the problem is as bad in other nations as it is here?

This is a flaw inherent in our system. A Democracy IMO can only work if you have a population that knows what is going on. Look at all those "man on the street" interviews wherein the respondent can't even answer basic questions like which party the person they voted for belongs to. Such people are the death of Democracy.
  #106  
Old 07-17-2018, 02:27 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Not at all. I chose to live here, and I don't plan to leave. In fact, Trump has finally gotten me to apply for citizenship.* Our current government is pretty awful, but no worse than, say, Berlusconi's.

*In case he becomes less discriminating about which brown people to kick out, not because the country is more appealing with a Trump in charge.
  #107  
Old 07-30-2018, 07:13 PM
Grestarian Grestarian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
Since the early/mid-1960's -- y'know, when local police were unleashing dogs on people, the national guard was shooting students, people arranged for some key assassinations...

Oh, and then there was the Watergate scandal, the Nixon Tapes crap, the oil embargoes, the Abscam sting, the treason scandals, the Hostage crisis, the rescue debacle, everything about the Reagan years including the Iran/Contra affair and the rise of the Immoral Minority and so on and so on and so on and...

By the time President Obama started eyeing the White House, you bet there was a need for Hope and Change. And, of course, even the slogan alone triggered more ugliness from the right wingers and they hadn't even let up from their non-cooperation pacts of the 1990's.

In other words, it has all been disgusting since before I was born!

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  #108  
Old 07-30-2018, 07:36 PM
MaverocK MaverocK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
I am not a US citizen but no one should be ashamed of being an American. Every nation has bad things and good things. Try to think about the positive sides of the US.
  #109  
Old 07-31-2018, 08:28 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Kennedy1960 View Post
Would you say the problem is as bad in other nations as it is here?
That was my point, yes, that it's as bad. It's not even linked to literacy or anything like that; it's linked to whether people give enough of a shit to do some digging. This means that while there is a gap (or more like a slope) between "countries where people are too busy figuring out what to eat" vs. "countries where people can take their daily bread for granted", the second and much larger group has similar levels of "people who just can't be arsed".
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  #110  
Old 07-31-2018, 09:42 AM
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BigT BigT is offline
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I've never been proud to be an American, and have always found the idea strange of being proud of something I had no say in and required no effort on my part. It took me a while to understand gay pride, too, but now I understand that's it's about standing tall against oppression. But I've never had to face even hardships because I was an American, so that doesn't fit, either.

That said, I don't want to avoid the point of the question. I would be less likely to volunteer the fact that I'm an American if I went overseas. And I while I don't feel shame, I do think those who supported Trump should. I do think less of people who not only voted for Trump but continue to support him. I think worse of my fellow man than I did before his election, as I've been disabused of many ideas of people still being good. Not all conservatives, of course, but a lot more than I thought. (I still can't believe I saw a pastor's wife who I adored in the past all happy that her son was praying that Trump would win.) I question whether people I thought were good people really are if they can support someone that their own morals says is a horrible, evil person.

And I am more worried about the future of America than I ever was in the past. Does that mean I'm hopeless? By no means. But I have lost an innocence I never knew I had still held onto. I can't treat even the trappings of patriotism the same way I did before, because I associate that with the people I knew who I thought were good. Watching the ceremony only reminded me of the NFL controversy. The pledge seems authoritarian instead of meaningless ritual.

If that's what people mean by saying they are no longer proud of being an American, then, yes, I qualify. But I just don't think of it that way.

Last edited by BigT; 07-31-2018 at 09:43 AM.
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