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  #51  
Old 04-28-2020, 07:57 PM
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It is common to hear observers express surprise at how fast the "object" moves, or the impossible maneuvers it makes. Sudden turns, appearing to disregard gravity, etc. This is a strong suggestion that what is being observed is not an object, but an image formed by light, such as a reflection. Reflections have no problems with gravity and inertia; physical objects do, whether they're Earth-sourced or otherwise.

The logical conclusion, in the absence of any other evidence, is not "it's an alien craft that violates the laws of physics," but "it's a light image obeying the laws of physics." IOW, an illusion.
I'm thinking one of the unmanned aircraft being experimented with. They can maneuver in a manner that would make a human pilot pass out.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:22 PM
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Well, ignoring the other possibilities is not making yours more likely.
Who said I was ignoring them?

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TriPolar
Again, aside from 30,000 feet, give some specifics. Accelerate and slow down at what rate? Reach what speed? What maneuvers? You keep repeating the same non-specific claim.
Here you go.

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If all this was on sensors there should be a lot of those details. Otherwise, it's the same kind of language that appears in every alien CT, "beyond the physical limits of a human crew", " unknown craft performing aerodynamic manouvers that no existing aircraft, foreign or domestic, is capable of doing".
Here you go.

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Why do you think they keep using those well worn phrases instead of providing specific, verified details?
They haven't, they literally tracked them on radar doing these kind of manouvers.
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  #53  
Old 04-28-2020, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
It is common to hear observers express surprise at how fast the "object" moves, or the impossible maneuvers it makes. Sudden turns, appearing to disregard gravity, etc. This is a strong suggestion that what is being observed is not an object, but an image formed by light, such as a reflection. Reflections have no problems with gravity and inertia; physical objects do, whether they're Earth-sourced or otherwise.

The logical conclusion, in the absence of any other evidence, is not "it's an alien craft that violates the laws of physics," but "it's a light image obeying the laws of physics." IOW, an illusion.
Ok, but does aircraft tracking equipment lock on a reflection? Because in the videos they lock on the whatever they are numerous times.
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  #54  
Old 04-28-2020, 09:54 PM
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Who said I was ignoring them?
By continuing with the items that have already more simple explanations.
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:06 PM
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Ok, but does aircraft tracking equipment lock on a reflection? Because in the videos they lock on the whatever they are numerous times.
Actually when I see the videos it does look a lot like when one looks at floaters in one's eyes. One can follow the floaters for a few moments but eventually one runs out of space and the floater zips away from one's view. IMO some equipment quirk took place, and they fixed on that "target" but because there was eventually a need to control the flight then the "floater" inside the device zinged away.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-28-2020 at 10:06 PM.
  #56  
Old 04-29-2020, 01:42 AM
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What stands out to me is the utter impossibility of a bunch of Congressmen hearing convincing evidence of extraterrestrials and never blabbing about it to anyone.
Forget about Congress. How could anyone think Trump would keep his mouth shut if he was told aliens have been contacted or been proved to exist?

I read a lot of flying saucer books in the mid-60s when I was a teenager. I've been waiting for evidence for a long time. Some of those stories sound very similar to this one.

Last edited by Voyager; 04-29-2020 at 01:43 AM.
  #57  
Old 04-29-2020, 04:45 AM
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Ok, but does aircraft tracking equipment lock on a reflection? Because in the videos they lock on the whatever they are numerous times.
Since I don't have access to the details, and they may be sketchy or distorted anyway, I can't provide an exact answer in this particular case.

But I recall investigations by experts like Joe Nickell and Phil Klass about such stories (compare the squid fishing lights off of NZ, which were also claimed to be radar tracked). Radar signals are far from perfect; spurious signals are common. Radar operators are used to ignoring them, but if they get a report of some phenomena and think they can coordinate it with an unknown signal, that qualifies as confirmation. Signals that do not are ignored.

It can be a lot like finding passages in Nostradamus that seem to coordinate with real events. Or looking at an ancient monument and finding celestial bodies that seem to line up with the stones. Given enough things to compare, you can always find a match, and humans are pattern-matching animals.

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I read a lot of flying saucer books in the mid-60s when I was a teenager. I've been waiting for evidence for a long time. Some of those stories sound very similar to this one.
Ever notice how, after the passage of time, the "evidence" for aliens doesn't get any stronger? Irving Langmuir said this was one characteristic of pseudoscience.

I have a large coffee-table style book, UFOs, the Best Evidence. The "best evidence" is fuzzy blobs of light and other undefinable or easily faked images. You would think by now, with cameras in everyone's pocket, the evidence would have improved somewhat, but it hasn't. XKCD said it best.
  #58  
Old 04-29-2020, 06:12 AM
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Let's break it down into the three different films.

1/ The first one, known as the Nimitz encounter from 2004, is the one associated with David Fravour. We should note first of all that Fravour did not take this film, but it was taken shortly after by another plane. The object shown in this film does not seem to be the same object that Fravour saw, and when analysed in detail by Mick West at Metabunk, this film was found to be consistent with a distant plane observed by an FLIR (Forward-looking InfraRed detector). The Nimitz footage is consistent with an earthly plane about 50km away, and I suspect it was taken by the second pilot because he was looking around the sky for anything - anything that might have been an intruder at that point. All the strange behaviour of the object on the film can be explained by the characteristics of the FLIR itself and the way it changes magnification.
I don't know what this distant plane was, but it is likely to have been an entirely innocent plane passing by, perhaps in a different sector of the testing range and outside the Nimitz' area of interest.

2/ There are two other clips from 2015 which have been released, and the names of the pilot or aircrew who took them are not known. The first one, known as GoFast, is probably a large bird, which is neither flying at sea level or at 25,000 feet but about halfway between the two. The reason it looks like that this object is moving fast is that the sea is scanning past the camera at a rapid rate - a parallax effect, that you can see in many videos if you know what you are looking for. A bird at 13000 feet is not particularly unbelievable, and is the most likely explanation (though it could even be a relatively small balloon or drone).

3/ The last clip, known as Gimbal, is probably a distant plane taken by the FLIR sensor at an extreme angle, and the strange behaviour of this object is once again caused by the peculiar characteristics of the FLIR and the parallax effect of the movement of the plane as it flies and an artifact of the Gimbal rotation of the sensor.

In short these clips do not prove the existence of alien craft.

I should point out that the Nimitz/Princeton encounter as described by David Fravour and by the radar operators cannot be explained by a distant plane, and I don't know what Fravour saw, or what the radar operators saw; but it was not this. The radar operators detected something coming from a very high altitude to a very low altitude, which may have been meteors of some kind. This is certainly not what Fravour saw, and if pushed, I would suggest that Fravour saw a bird at mid-altitude like the GoFast video, or a balloon or drone. But we don't have any material evidence to look at concerning Fravour's sighting or the radar returns, so these will have to remain unexplained.

Last edited by eburacum45; 04-29-2020 at 06:12 AM.
  #59  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:09 PM
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Actually when I see the videos it does look a lot like when one looks at floaters in one's eyes. One can follow the floaters for a few moments but eventually one runs out of space and the floater zips away from one's view. IMO some equipment quirk took place, and they fixed on that "target" but because there was eventually a need to control the flight then the "floater" inside the device zinged away.
Nah, that would only hold if it was one pilot who made the confirmation sighting, but it was confirmed by multiple pilots.

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After the return of the first team to Nimitz, a second crew took off at approximately 12:00 PST, this time equipped with an advanced infrared camera (FLIR pod). This camera recorded what appeared to be a moving object. The footage was publicly released by the Pentagon more than 13 years later, on 16 December 2017, alongside the revelation of the funding of the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.
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Musicat
But I recall investigations by experts like Joe Nickell and Phil Klass about such stories (compare the squid fishing lights off of NZ, which were also claimed to be radar tracked). Radar signals are far from perfect; spurious signals are common. Radar operators are used to ignoring them, but if they get a report of some phenomena and think they can coordinate it with an unknown signal, that qualifies as confirmation. Signals that do not are ignored.
Okay, but how do you reconcile that with multiple pilot descriptions of the objects.

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Forget about Congress. How could anyone think Trump would keep his mouth shut if he was told aliens have been contacted or been proved to exist?
It's not stopped previous presidents blabbing about having a Stealth aircraft before the F-117 was introduced in the late 80's.

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GIGOBuster
By continuing with the items that have already more simple explanations.
Because "floaters in camera equipment" Isn't a satisfactory or plausible explanation.
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  #60  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:47 PM
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Nah, that would only hold if it was one pilot who made the confirmation sighting, but it was confirmed by multiple pilots.


Okay, but how do you reconcile that with multiple pilot descriptions of the objects.

It's not stopped previous presidents blabbing about having a Stealth aircraft before the F-117 was introduced in the late 80's.

Because "floaters in camera equipment" Isn't a satisfactory or plausible explanation.
It is when you consider that you are not taking into account that that was a metaphor for any object inside the IR/Radar, like if it is a bug:

The best explanation of why this item could be internal can be found in this thread from a science forum:

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/...omment=1121813

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/...omment=1122529

Quote:
Here are two animations that Illustrate what we should see when the object is External, and when the object is Internal:

External: https://i.ibb.co/tpH1JQW/External-Object.gif

Internal: https://i.ibb.co/L943PJY/Internal-Object.gif
As for your insistence that we should take into account that this was confirmed by multiple pilots: where are their recordings of the incident? And IIRC even Hynek realized that pilots have to concentrate on many things while flying so they do not really make good witnesses when something outside their mission enters the picture.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-29-2020 at 12:50 PM.
  #61  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:51 PM
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Ever notice how, after the passage of time, the "evidence" for aliens doesn't get any stronger? Irving Langmuir said this was one characteristic of pseudoscience.

I have a large coffee-table style book, UFOs, the Best Evidence. The "best evidence" is fuzzy blobs of light and other undefinable or easily faked images. You would think by now, with cameras in everyone's pocket, the evidence would have improved somewhat, but it hasn't. XKCD said it best.
Amazingly, the proliferation of cell phone cameras has made all the UFOs and aliens go into hiding.
  #62  
Old 04-29-2020, 01:01 PM
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As for "It's not stopped previous presidents blabbing about having a Stealth aircraft before the F-117 was introduced in the late 80's." that is really a good point for this not being extraterrestrial, by now someone would had blabbed on that.

And that takes us to one overall point: Decades of looking at these phenomena end up being disappointing in the end as nothing new comes out from it, if no good explanations, we also do not get aliens nor time travelers.

It is a lot like the Tim Minchin rule:

“Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be... not magic.”

Nor aliens...
  #63  
Old 04-29-2020, 01:12 PM
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Okay, but how do you reconcile that with multiple pilot descriptions of the objects.
Well, the accounts do not really tally. Fravor's account describes something relatively nearby, while the FLIR clip shows something tens of kilometres away. And the radar accounts describe traces that descend from 80,000 feet to sea-level, which is nothing like Fravour's sighting, and nothing like the FLIR clip.

So we basically have three unrelated accounts. Note as well that the radar returns were reported on several days, so were likely to be part of an ongoing phenomenon that was not related to the other sightings.
  #64  
Old 04-29-2020, 01:19 PM
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I recommend this short video by Mick West. He has also produced much longer ones- but the results are the same; these clips can be explained by mundane objects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7jcBGLIpus
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Today the Navy officially released three videos of UFOs. They are called FLIR, GIMBAL and GOFAST. The internet immediately took this as meaning that aliens are real. But the videos are not actually new. They were internally declassified back in 2017, and immediately released by Tom DeLonge's To The Stars Academy. I started writing about them in December 2017. With the help of others, I quickly arrived at likely explanations for all three videos.
The FLIR video is most likely a distant plane. The video was taken well after the famous encounter with a hypersonic zig-zagging tic-tac by pilots from the NIMITZ. This object doesn't actually move on screen - except when the camera moves, and it resembles an out of focus low-resolution backlit plane. I don't know what the pilots saw, but this video does not show anything really interesting.
The GIMBAL video is also probably of a plane. .... It's not rotating. What you see is the infrared glare of the engines, larger than the plane. It looks like it is rotating because of an artifact of the gimbal-mounted camera system. This is all a bit confusing, so I made several videos explaining it. Oh, and the "AURA" around the plane, that's just image sharpening. It happens all the time in thermal camera footage. It's not an alien warp drive, it's just the unsharp mask filter.
The GO-FAST video probably shows a balloon. It's not moving fast, it's not skimming the water, and you can verify this yourself because all the information you need is in the numbers on screen. It's just an effect caused by parallax. Over the last few years, I've made a variety of videos explaining all this.
You can find the playlist here: Source: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...CVnqTx_c0P3O2t
  #65  
Old 04-29-2020, 02:55 PM
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Amazingly, the proliferation of cell phone cameras has made all the UFOs and aliens go into hiding.
Remember when that meteorite fell in Russia, it was recorded by a score of cameras. None seem to catch these things.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:14 PM
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It's all bullshit until I can kick the tires of one of the UFOs.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:30 PM
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It's all bullshit until I can kick the tires of one of the UFOs.
...or dissect an alien body, or have a beer with BigFoot.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:55 PM
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Dashboard cameras have a particularly good chance of capturing a UFO, if they exist. Even better are the all-sky meteor cams that record the sky all night.
Nothing.
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Old 04-29-2020, 04:36 PM
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...or dissect an alien body, or have a beer with BigFoot.
Hey, this was about aliens. If you think BigFoot isn't real you'll need a whole new thread.
  #70  
Old 04-29-2020, 06:29 PM
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Well, the accounts do not really tally. Fravor's account describes something relatively nearby, while the FLIR clip shows something tens of kilometres away. And the radar accounts describe traces that descend from 80,000 feet to sea-level, which is nothing like Fravour's sighting, and nothing like the FLIR clip.

So we basically have three unrelated accounts. Note as well that the radar returns were reported on several days, so were likely to be part of an ongoing phenomenon that was not related to the other sightings.
That's a completely wrong synopsis, they initially tracked them coming down from 80,000ft, Fravour and co were on a training exercise and then they were directed to the area to investigate the anomaly.

The UAP then whizzed around Fravors aircraft, they eventually went back to the carrier, and another team was sent out as they were tracked on radar again.
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Old 04-29-2020, 06:44 PM
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...or dissect an alien body, or have a beer with BigFoot.
I've done the latter. They're partial to porters.
  #72  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:58 PM
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We obviously have Jews In Space. My experience modding a once-prominent paranormal-conspiracy-UFO forum showed that all Western conspiracy theories eventually blame Jews. Expect UFO images to resolve to 6-pointed stars, at least in some imaginations.

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What stands out to me is the utter impossibility of a bunch of Congressmen hearing convincing evidence of extraterrestrials and never blabbing about it to anyone.
Bingo!

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The logical conclusion, in the absence of any other evidence, is not "it's an alien craft that violates the laws of physics," but "it's a light image obeying the laws of physics." IOW, an illusion.
Bingo!

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..."floaters in camera equipment" Isn't a satisfactory or plausible explanation.
Have you ever handled film or worked a movie camera? Photo-floaters exist. Shutter, aperture, and lens artifacts intrude. Dust invades and wriggles. I especially distrust military small-format optical systems that aren't adequately maintained.

I have witnessed uncanny events revealed to be mundane. I have recorded real and faked images of such events. I know alien-abduction re-enactors; they're more fun than Civil War or Sherlock costume freaks. I have viewed Area 51's sky filled with odd lights - because gear gets test-flown there. I built an alien beacon; didn't work AFAIK although I suspect a certain neighbor...

If advanced aliens are around, they're too clever or invisible to be noticed. Our solar system is in a sparse cosmic neighborhood. ETs will find better pickings elsewhere.
  #73  
Old 04-29-2020, 11:02 PM
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I've done the latter. They're partial to porters.
How do they feel about redcaps?
  #74  
Old 04-30-2020, 01:55 AM
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We obviously have Jews In Space. My experience modding a once-prominent paranormal-conspiracy-UFO forum showed that all Western conspiracy theories eventually blame Jews. Expect UFO images to resolve to 6-pointed stars, at least in some imaginations.
We know this is true because of the Deneb Deli and the Betelgeuse Bagel store.
But if we Jews control the world, how come I get bupkus?
  #75  
Old 04-30-2020, 02:30 AM
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That's a completely wrong synopsis, they initially tracked them coming down from 80,000ft,
On several occasions, for at least a week before the event. These traces may have been meteors or some other natural phenomenon. Probably unconnected with the FLIR clip. Kevin Day, one of the radar operators, has admitted these returns may not have been connected.

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Fravor and co were on a training exercise and then they were directed to the area to investigate the anomaly. The UAP then whizzed around Fravors aircraft, they eventually went back to the carrier,
Whatever Fravor saw, it does not resemble anything 'coming down from 80,000 feet' and it does not resemble the object seen in the FLIR clip, which is a fuzzy, apparently stationary blob tens of kilometres away. The object Fravor saw was between him and the sea, so was only a few thousand feet away, and was probably a large seabird or perhaps a balloon or drone. He circled around the object, and probably fell victim to the same parallax effect that occurs in the GOFAST video, which made the object appear to be circling opposite him, whereas it was merely stationary (or nearly so). But we don't have much data to analyse in this sighting, apart from a 16 year-old testimony.

Quote:
and another team was sent out as they were tracked on radar again.
We do, however, have data to analyse in this case; the FLIR clip, which does not show the rapid manoeuvrability described by Fravor, but instead shows a distant aircraft that is probably moving almost directly away from the camera. The crew in this case were directed towards a possible radar contact, but the thing they filmed was many kilometers away from the radar return, so was probably not connected.

The Nimitz was using a relatively new radar system at this time, and they were probably detecting a lot of false returns that they didn't know how to identify yet. The FLIR system is also deceptive, since it can detect and lock on to targets that look impressive but are in fact entirely innocuous, and display them in ways that can be confusing.
  #76  
Old 04-30-2020, 05:12 AM
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Maybe it's aliens, maybe it's Jesus, or maybe it's a hoax or some mundane explanation that results in an illusion of high-speed flying objects.

The latter seems a lot more likely than the former explanations.
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:41 AM
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It is common to hear observers express surprise at how fast the "object" moves, or the impossible maneuvers it makes. Sudden turns, appearing to disregard gravity, etc. This is a strong suggestion that what is being observed is not an object, but an image formed by light, such as a reflection. Reflections have no problems with gravity and inertia; physical objects do, whether they're Earth-sourced or otherwise.

The logical conclusion, in the absence of any other evidence, is not "it's an alien craft that violates the laws of physics," but "it's a light image obeying the laws of physics." IOW, an illusion.
I don't have a cite but remember someone claiming a similar statement was made in an unofficial interview with a member of the UAP investigation team. The investigation team determined the UAPs were not physical objects so they shut down the investigation. Might be complete B.S. but it made sense to me.
  #78  
Old 05-01-2020, 06:09 PM
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I'm not seeing any "proof" or even disturbing anomalies. Looks like separate events mashed together. Made worse by the time and memory gaps.

Show me something easily discernible, physical evidence, and multiple corroborating accounts and I'll waste some of my limited time on earth looking/reading. Until then; it's just another drunk in a gorilla suit.
  #79  
Old 05-01-2020, 06:20 PM
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Until then; it's just another drunk in a gorilla suit.
"Say...what's a drunk in a gorilla suit doing way up here in a cloud bank?"
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Old 05-01-2020, 08:48 PM
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He was launched from our super secret submarine riding on a stealth drone also equipped with helium weather balloons.
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Old 05-02-2020, 09:23 AM
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Here's Astronomer Phil Plait's take on the subject.
  #82  
Old 05-03-2020, 06:26 AM
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Radar contacts, infrared detections, and visual sightings by the pilots and weapon systems officers have been reported with Lt. Accoin stating that "multiple sensors [were] reading the exact same thing." Lt. Graves stated that the objects were showing up at 30,000 feet as well as sea level and could accelerate, slow down and hit hypersonic speeds with manoeuvres "beyond the physical limits of a human crew."
Lt. Graves has publicly stated that these things didn't start showing up until they upgraded their radar systems from the AN/APG-73 to the AN/APG-79. I wonder why the aliens waited for that.
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