Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:12 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 415
All right, since this thread has died down a bit I would like to take this opportunity to ask a hypothetical:

If I am present during a situation like this and in possession of a legally owned firearm can I pull my gun out and defend Arbury? I'm not 100% sure what I mean by "defend" here so I will ask the question in a few parts.

If I see 3 (white) guys in pickups harassing and attempting to corral a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood can I pull out my gun and demand that they stop? At what point can I legally start shooting?

If I see 2 (white) guys with guns about to gun down a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood can I legally shoot them first? Should I wait to start shooting until after they start shooting?

If I see 2 (white) guys shoot and kill a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood while I am standing there with my gun in my hand, can I legally shoot them? In this situation I would assume I would need to fear for my life to make this legally justified. And I assure you, as a black man in America, if I just saw 2 rednecks gun down a brotha for no discernable reason I would most definitely be afraid for my life.

I don't ever want to be in a situation like this but I have often wondered about what I legally could do...

Last edited by BeagleJesus; 05-26-2020 at 11:16 AM.
  #152  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:58 AM
Whack-a-Mole's Avatar
Whack-a-Mole is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 21,759
The YouTube channel LegalEagle has just posted a video looking at the Abery shooting.

While it is certainly not the final word on this it does do a good job of laying out the facts as they are known (so far) and pointing out some of the legal issues surrounding this case.

WARNING: The video does show the clip of the altercation and Arbery getting shot and killed.
__________________
"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it." ~John Stuart Mill
  #153  
Old 05-26-2020, 12:19 PM
Whack-a-Mole's Avatar
Whack-a-Mole is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 21,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
All right, since this thread has died down a bit I would like to take this opportunity to ask a hypothetical:

If I am present during a situation like this and in possession of a legally owned firearm can I pull my gun out and defend Arbury? I'm not 100% sure what I mean by "defend" here so I will ask the question in a few parts.

If I see 3 (white) guys in pickups harassing and attempting to corral a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood can I pull out my gun and demand that they stop? At what point can I legally start shooting?

If I see 2 (white) guys with guns about to gun down a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood can I legally shoot them first? Should I wait to start shooting until after they start shooting?

If I see 2 (white) guys shoot and kill a (black) guy jogging through the neighborhood while I am standing there with my gun in my hand, can I legally shoot them? In this situation I would assume I would need to fear for my life to make this legally justified. And I assure you, as a black man in America, if I just saw 2 rednecks gun down a brotha for no discernable reason I would most definitely be afraid for my life.

I don't ever want to be in a situation like this but I have often wondered about what I legally could do...
According to the video I linked in my last post "self defense" can be used, according to Georgia law, when:

Quote:
...a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

SOURCE: Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-21
So yes, you can use force to "prevent death or great bodily injury" to someone else (or yourself) in Georgia.

Of course, you will probably need to convince a DA and possibly a court that you acted appropriately in the situation. That may be hard to do (e.g. when did you know what was happening was no longer a minor scuffle and was life threatening...how did you know...how did you know who needed to be shot...etc.?).

Most times just call the police.
__________________
"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it." ~John Stuart Mill
  #154  
Old 05-27-2020, 05:30 AM
I Love Me, Vol. I's Avatar
I Love Me, Vol. I is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SF
Posts: 4,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Georgia Rules of Engagement.
From page 9:
Quote:
A police officer shall be authorised to use firearms and special means only if he/she has undergone special training.
...

Before using physical force, special means and firearms, a police officer shall warn a person and give a reasonable period of time to carry out the lawful order except if the delay may cause encroachment on life and health of a person and/or of a police officer, or other severe consequences, or if such warning is unjustifiable or impossible in a given situation.
From page 10:
Quote:
Passive use of a firearm refers to demonstration of a firearm by a police officer to achieve a legitimate objective.
...
A police officer may use a firearm as a last resort:
...
based on prior information, to prevent the escape of a person who has been detained for having committed a violent act or extremely grievous crime;

...
The active use of a firearm against a person shall be preceded by the following verbal warning:‘Police!Freeze or I will shoot!’ followed by a warning shot. In the case of necessity, a warning shot might not be fired.
So, yeah. The passive use of the firearm wouldn't have been justified for an actual cop, because the person hadn't been detained for a violent act or extremely grievous crime.


Wrong Georgia.



From page 17
Quote:
[snip]

...Articles 1-59 and Article 61(1) of this Law shall come into force as from 1 January 2014.

President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili

Kutaisi

4 October 2013
  #155  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:33 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 42,854
That is the most embarrassing thing ever. My deep apologies.
  #156  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:00 AM
I Love Me, Vol. I's Avatar
I Love Me, Vol. I is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SF
Posts: 4,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
That is the most embarrassing thing ever. My deep apologies.
I think it's sort of amusing and not in a horrible "YER AN IDJIT!" kinda way. There was something just a little off with that document... the phrasing and word choice seemed not quite right. But I knew for sure it didn't refer to the State of Georgia, U.S.A when I read Article 53:

Quote:
Article 53 - Leave of a police officer

1. The length of annual paid leave of a police officer shall be 30 calendar days.
2. The length of annual paid leave shall be 35 calendar days for a police officer with working experience of more than five years at the Ministry, and 40
calendar days for a police officer with working experience of more than 10 years.
Six weeks paid vacation to start, seven weeks after five years experience, and eight weeks after ten years on the job!!!!


No way you're ever gonna see that anywhere in the Greatest Country on Earth. Not in Georgia, not in Alaska, not Vermont or California, not nowhere.
  #157  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:11 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 42,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
I think it's sort of amusing and not in a horrible "YER AN IDJIT!" kinda way. There was something just a little off with that document... the phrasing and word choice seemed not quite right. But I knew for sure it didn't refer to the State of Georgia, U.S.A when I read Article 53:



Six weeks paid vacation to start, seven weeks after five years experience, and eight weeks after ten years on the job!!!!


No way you're ever gonna see that anywhere in the Greatest Country on Earth. Not in Georgia, not in Alaska, not Vermont or California, not nowhere.
Yeah, even with the use of force guidelines, I was pleasantly surprised with how reasonable they sounded. That should've clued me in.

I've done a little more digging this morning, looking for something for the State of Georgia, and have been unsuccessful. Either the English-language version of the Nation of Georgia's police procedural manner has better search-engine-optimization, or else the State of Georgia doesn't have a statewide, publicly-available set of procedures for cops. The Georgia localities I could find are super vague in their use-of-force guidelines, which is super fucked up.
  #158  
Old 05-27-2020, 08:22 AM
Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 8,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
That is the most embarrassing thing ever.
If that is true, then you're doing pretty damn well at life.
  #159  
Old 05-27-2020, 10:18 AM
ASL v2.0's Avatar
ASL v2.0 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Various
Posts: 1,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, even with the use of force guidelines, I was pleasantly surprised with how reasonable they sounded. That should've clued me in.

I've done a little more digging this morning, looking for something for the State of Georgia, and have been unsuccessful. Either the English-language version of the Nation of Georgia's police procedural manner has better search-engine-optimization, or else the State of Georgia doesn't have a statewide, publicly-available set of procedures for cops. The Georgia localities I could find are super vague in their use-of-force guidelines, which is super fucked up.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that much of it is covered by local regulations and based on common law. There was, IIRC, a Supreme Court case some time in the nebulous past (but inside the last century, definitely) on use of force by police at least in situations involving a fleeing suspect not wanted for a violent felony (or something like that).

I believe the case was ostensibly in whether or not said officer could be sued, though... maybe in Tennessee? Hmmm...

ETA: Tennessee v. Garner

But, again, that’s specific to police, and technically I guess Arbery wasn’t fleeing when they put themselves in his path, provoked a physical altercation, and shot him. Still...

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 05-27-2020 at 10:22 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017