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  #151  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:02 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Several of you have made this claim in this thread. I don't think anyone has provided any evidence to support it. What's your cite?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/..._on_portl.html

https://www.msnbc.com/david-gura/wat...19822?v=railb&

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewi...st-lynch-obama

And that's not including the dozens of assaults and deaths from right wing "lone wolves".

That you continue to use Maxine Waters as proof of violence when she specifically said NOT to touch anyone is...educating. Incivility in the age of Trump is hardly a mob, and if that's what you have to whine about when righties are literally shooting people, well, be glad you're not a Democrat. We have real shit to worry about.
  #152  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:14 AM
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Anybody else thinking this whole "mob rule" shit is because the tighty rightys just figured out that they are outnumbered?
  #153  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
That you continue to use Maxine Waters as proof of violence when she specifically said NOT to touch anyone is...educating. Incivility in the age of Trump is hardly a mob, and if that's what you have to whine about when righties are literally shooting people, well, be glad you're not a Democrat. We have real shit to worry about.
Don't forget "running people over" and, of course, the numerous times Donald Trump has praised and encouraged violence.
  #154  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:16 AM
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Anybody else thinking this whole "mob rule" shit is because the tighty rightys just figured out that they are outnumbered?
Nah; that has nothing to do with it. They're always the real victim, see.
  #155  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:33 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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You should have stuck with the senior citizen phobia. Only one of the three senior citizen statements you linked to comes even close to urging violence / incivility / mob-like actions. One out of the three is vaguely in the ballpark.
Which one are you thinking of? "... kick them", "You cannot be civil ...", or "You get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them."?
  #156  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:41 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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None of these are evidence for "Democrats produce fewer mobs". I readily concede there are anecdotes of mob-like actions on both sides, but 'the plural of anecdote is not data'. These don't tell us which side has more or which side has fewer. I was looking for you to provide some data related to "fewer mobs". Do you have any? If not, why would you claim "fewer"?
  #157  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:47 AM
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Why are you only viewing republicans under the "create jobs" banner,and only democrats under the "create mobs" moniker?

Your disingenuousness doesn't seem to indicate a willingness to debate in good faith.
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  #158  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:06 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Why are you only viewing republicans under the "create jobs" banner,and only democrats under the "create mobs" moniker?

Your disingenuousness doesn't seem to indicate a willingness to debate in good faith.
I don't think I've claimed in this thread that "only" democrats create mobs. Earlier RitterSport said this:

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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
... I'm willing to concede that there are lefties and Democrats that sometimes gather and sometimes get unruly. Are you willing to concede the same is true on the right? ...
He indicated he wasn't coming back, so I didn't respond, but if it would help you, I'll concede "the same is true on the right".

The same is also true of "produce jobs". The White House has been occupied by both R's and D's while jobs have been created in this country. Ditto for control of Congress.

As I said, I hoped the discussion would focus on the political effects of the slogan. Nobody (or very few) seemed interested in that.
  #159  
Old 10-22-2018, 03:33 AM
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What effects? Anyone can objectively show that his slogan is just as meaningless as any other sound bite he offers. The people who love him will believe it. More will view it as the partisan bullshit that it is.
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  #160  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post

As I said, I hoped the discussion would focus on the political effects of the slogan. Nobody (or very few) seemed interested in that.
What's there to discuss? It's a phenomenally stupid, dishonest slogan that true believers will lap up without any critical thinking. What effect is it supposed to have? It's more red meat for the base, but the base is not exactly in doubt as to who to vote for because they're the kind of people who would buy into a slogan this stupid, even after people have explained at length why it's a dishonest mess.
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  #161  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:25 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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What's there to discuss? It's a phenomenally stupid, dishonest slogan that true believers will lap up without any critical thinking. What effect is it supposed to have? It's more red meat for the base, but the base is not exactly in doubt as to who to vote for because they're the kind of people who would buy into a slogan this stupid, even after people have explained at length why it's a dishonest mess.
If you want to threadshit, or tread as close to the "personal insults" line as you possibly can, why don't you go do it elsewhere?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-22-2018 at 04:25 AM.
  #162  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If you want to threadshit, or tread as close to the "personal insults" line as you possibly can, why don't you go do it elsewhere?
Don't ask the question if you don't want an answer. The slogan is blatantly and obviously bullshit, as has been explained at length here (has anyone brought up major conservative figures inviting the Proud Boys, an actual violent neo-nazi mob who have very explicitly called for more violence, to speak for them?). The only effect it will have is as red meat for people too ill-informed to know better. And if you personally find yourself in that group, well, that's really not my fault or my problem.

"Everyone in group A is demonstrably ignorant for reasons x, y, and z."
"Hey, I'm in group A! Stop insulting me!"

Shouldn't really be much of a defense, in my opinion. Just for example: every republican who seriously believes the republicans campaigning on fixing health care is demonstrably being fooled and falling for a very obvious, very stupid con. The fact that you can probably find someone here like that is hardly grounds to accuse me of personal insults.
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Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 10-22-2018 at 04:41 AM.
  #163  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:38 AM
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(Has anyone brought up major conservative figures inviting the Proud Boys, an actual violent neo-nazi mob who have very explicitly called for more violence, to speak for them?)
In case someone is wondering what I'm talking about...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/republ...the-proud-boys
Nine members of the far-right Proud Boys group and three protesters are facing riot and assault charges after a street brawl between them Friday night in New York.

The fight wasn’t a random clash, though: The Proud Boys were in Manhattan thanks to an invite from the Metropolitan Republican Club.

[...]

Representatives Mario Diaz-Balart and Devin Nunes have posed for pictures with Proud Boys on the campaign trail. Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson posed in a Fox green room with two Proud Boys and Republican operative Roger Stone earlier this year.
And of course, as usual, we find ourselves looking back to early 20th century europe for parallels:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-fascists.html
Some argue that the best way to deal with groups like the Proud Boys, which thrive off the oxygen of publicity, might be to ignore them. But was last weekend’s incident a turning point in the relationship between establishment Republicanism and alt-right neofascists? Shouldn’t we be paying attention on those grounds alone? The Daily Beast’s Kelly Weill and Will Sommer argue that it was, and that the success of the Proud Boys in gaining entrée into places like the Metropolitan Republican Club (as well as past public support from Republican figures like Roger Stone, Tucker Carlson, and Devin Nunes) is reminiscent of the way fascism gained power in Europe between World Wars I and II.

Weill and Sommer quote historian Robert Paxton, who wrote in 2004 that if you take 20th-century European history as a guide, any publicly recognized relationship between the conservative elite and neo-Nazi skinheads (the most fascist-adjacent faction the American fringe had to offer at the time Paxton was writing) would be a warning sign that American fascism was on the rise. So here we are, for the millionth time in the last two years, looking back at the history of interwar European fascism for some lessons.
And in case anyone doubts that the Proud Boys are a violent mob, let's listen to their founder, Gavin McInnes:
McInnes has a well documented and long-running record of blatantly promoting violence and making threats. “We will kill you. That’s the Proud Boys in a nutshell. We will kill you,” he said on his Compound Media show in mid-2016. His followers often repeat his calls for violence and seemed especially emboldened this past summer as they participated in a number of large-scale “free speech” rallies across the country.
The whole thing is yet another horrifying sign of things gone horribly wrong in America.
  #164  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:52 AM
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Personally, I think it's rather catchy, and a sadly-accurate reflection of the current state of affairs in American politics, but I'm curious what my fellow Dopers think. Have any of you (I'm particularly curious what the leftists think, but the couple of other conservatives are welcome to opine as well) been turned off by leftist incivility, vandalism, destruction of property, violence, mob actions, etc? Even if you personally approve, do you worry that it might be turning off moderates / independent voters? Or do you think this sort of thing will be a great electoral boon for Dems?
This may be the most trifling thread ever started in Elections.

Catchy? Sure: rhyming couplets are catchy.

Sadly-accurate? Given your apparent agreement that "Democrats create jobs, Republicans create mobs" is just as accurate, I don't see why you'd start this thread. Given any normal and reasonable reading of the statement--in which a clear contrast is implied--no, of course it's not accurate.

Have I been turned off by vandalism? I wasn't sexually aroused in the first place, but if you're speaking metaphorically, listen close: I don't favor vandalism or violence.

But your list of examples is some trifling shit. You know, of course, that I can come up with a list of grosser calls for violence, and actual violence, on the right, even if I limit myself to Trump's own words and rallies, right? So why don't you spend some time asking yourself the more important reflections of the questions you ask leftists?
  #165  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:53 AM
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If you want to threadshit, or tread as close to the "personal insults" line as you possibly can, why don't you go do it elsewhere?
You should report it, then.
  #166  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:24 AM
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In terms of violent rhetoric, would you say what Holder said was more or less explicitly violent than
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Well, Gov. Wolf, let me tell you, between now and November 6, you better put a catcher's mask on your face. Because I'm going to stomp all over your face with golf spikes because I'm going to win this for the state of Pennsylvania.
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  #167  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:43 AM
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This thread needs a second amendment solution.
  #168  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:58 AM
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Then:

Democrats: "Republicans are a bunch of xenophobic, homophobic racists."

Republicans: "THIS IS WHY TRUMP WON, WE'RE SICK OF BEING ATTACKED."

Now:

Republicans: "Democrats are a bunch of evil, America-hating extremists who want nothing more than the end of the free republic as we know it."

---

I hope you enjoy Speaker Pelosi, I have a bunch of 2 year old talking points to dust off when it's time.
  #169  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:00 AM
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Democrats stop crimes, Republicans commit them.

I find this statement sadly accurate. Conservatives, how do you feel about it? Do the crimes committed by your fellow conservatives turn you off? Does it bother you that Democrats are out there stopping crime while Republicans are out there committing crime? Even if you personally approve of criminal Republican activity, do you worry that moderates will see Republicans committing crimes and decide to vote for Democrats instead? Or do you think it'll be a boon for Republicans in the elections?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 10-22-2018 at 09:01 AM.
  #170  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:42 AM
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Democrats stop crimes, Republicans commit them.

I find this statement sadly accurate. Conservatives, how do you feel about it? Do the crimes committed by your fellow conservatives turn you off? Does it bother you that Democrats are out there stopping crime while Republicans are out there committing crime? Even if you personally approve of criminal Republican activity, do you worry that moderates will see Republicans committing crimes and decide to vote for Democrats instead? Or do you think it'll be a boon for Republicans in the elections?
Hey, Trump's Cabinet isn't representative of Republicans! They're just 'a few bad apples,' y'know?
  #171  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If you want to threadshit, or tread as close to the "personal insults" line as you possibly can, why don't you go do it elsewhere?
Don't give other posters instructions on how to behave. If you feel something's gone wrong, feel free to report the post. Do not feel free to junior mod. Such irritates actual moderators.

Now, speaking of instructions...

This thread is getting overheated and pointless. If y'all can't play well I'll close it. I hope that's clear.
  #172  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:56 AM
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Democrats display wit, republicans eat shit. Gee, this is fun. The "president" is dimwitted chimp who inherited a healthy economy. He's created nothing.
I had a conversation with my FIL who is a veteran, lives in rural Ohio, and is retired. He INSISTS the economy was horrible when Trump took office and the Great One has reversed the nightmare Obama economy. I showed him unemployment rates, NASDAQ, DOW, S&P numbers, etc., all with positive trends through most of the Obama administration and continuing through the first 18 months of the Trump administration. He just could not believe it. I mean literally, could not allow himself to believe it because it was completely counter to the last 8 years of 10 hours a day of Fox News coverage. He implied the numbers I was showing him were absolutely biased, "fake news" so to speak.
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  #173  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:57 AM
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This thread is getting overheated and pointless.
"Getting"?

A thread which starts out with a debate over which side of the political spectrum has more angry mobs than the other is already heading off the edge of the cliff.

Last edited by Gyrate; 10-22-2018 at 11:02 AM.
  #174  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:06 AM
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To paraphrase OP when he was applauding the patriotic gesture of Tim McVeigh, I'm not entirely sure that Mr. Ditka is entirely ...
SPOILER:
[deleted]

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Originally Posted by guizot View Post
"It must be true if it rhymes."

Words of an intellectual giant.
I'm not entirely sure this comment, however much it makes me laugh, is entirely ingenuous.

If you need a con, then call on Don.
When you over-slurp, you'll want to burp.
I'll take a dump, and vote for Trump.
The birds don't chirp, we chose a perp.

Last edited by septimus; 10-22-2018 at 11:07 AM.
  #175  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:12 AM
Lance Turbo Lance Turbo is online now
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Which one are you thinking of? "... kick them", "You cannot be civil ...", or "You get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them."?
While the idea that concealed within every old person there is a violent waiting to come out is completely bonkers, it, at least, has an internal consistency that your current position lacks.
  #176  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:32 AM
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Before this thread gets closed, let me post some fake news as Trump would call it: the full actual words of Eric Holder.

Quote:
"When I say we, you know, ‘We kick ‘em,’ I don’t mean we do anything inappropriate. We don’t do anything illegal,” Holder said. “But we got to be tough, and we have to fight for the very things that John Lewis, Martin Luther King, Whitney Young – you know, all those folks gave to us.”
What description should we apply to posters who deliberately take partial quotes out of context when the full account is available on every news site?
  #177  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:38 AM
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I don't think I've claimed in this thread that "only" democrats create mobs. Earlier RitterSport said this:
...
He indicated he wasn't coming back, so I didn't respond, but if it would help you, I'll concede "the same is true on the right".

The same is also true of "produce jobs". The White House has been occupied by both R's and D's while jobs have been created in this country. Ditto for control of Congress.

As I said, I hoped the discussion would focus on the political effects of the slogan. Nobody (or very few) seemed interested in that.
(All bolding mine.)
If that’s what you were hoping for, you should have a word with the other HurricaneDitka who started this thread.
That person presented an “argument” that insinuated Republicans were better at job creation, and that Democrats were more prone to thoughtless violence.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
President Trump appears to have settled on his closing argument for the 2018 campaign season: "Democrats produce mobs, Republicans produce jobs"
And then expressed personal satisfaction and agreement with that (very baseless) “argument”.
Quote:
Personally, I think it's rather catchy, and a sadly-accurate reflection of the current state of affairs in American politics, ...
And then proceeded to invite discussion on the presumption that this “argument” was true.
Quote:
... but I'm curious what my fellow Dopers think. Have any of you (I'm particularly curious what the leftists think, but the couple of other conservatives are welcome to opine as well) been turned off by leftist incivility, vandalism, destruction of property, violence, mob actions, etc?
And asked not for our opinion of the impact of this “catchy” slogan, but the impact of the presumedly rampant violent tactics of the Democrats.
Quote:
Even if you personally approve, do you worry that it might be turning off moderates / independent voters? Or do you think this sort of thing will be a great electoral boon for Dems?
Perhaps you weren’t hoping for people to challenge your assumptions, but you certainly didn’t appear to be asking for opinions on the political effect of Trump’s more-than-dubious slogan.

My wag on the topic you didn’t ask for opinions on but apparently wanted to discuss:
  • It’s a trite and largely baseless claim for which there is clear evidence of its antithesis.
  • It will offer Trump’s base another easy-to-remember, thought-numbing mantra to further divert their attention from reality. (A gram is better than a Damn!)
  • It will briefly help to rally the faithful and draw back some of those in danger of realizing they’ve been duped.
  • It will piss off the Leftists and thereby gain news coverage and publicity.
  • It will almost certainly become the basis for Trump’s new bumper-sticker business venture.
  #178  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:48 AM
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If that’s what you were hoping for, you should have a word with the other HurricaneDitka who started this thread.
I had a post (#86) along these same lines. Maybe he'll respond to yours; he ignored mine.
  #179  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:13 PM
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"Getting"?

A thread which starts out with a debate over which side of the political spectrum has more angry mobs than the other is already heading off the edge of the cliff.
That's giving the original post entirely too much credit: HD has explicitly disavowed the idea that which side has more mobs is at issue, claiming instead that the statement is trivially true and therefore worth responding to. It's the most absurd bait-and-switch I've ever seen, and is super ultra pointless from the get-go.
  #180  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Before this thread gets closed, let me post some fake news as Trump would call it: the full actual words of Eric Holder.

What description should we apply to posters who deliberately take partial quotes out of context when the full account is available on every news site?
Reported.

Some people — of course this includes no one at SDMB! — lack the mental wherewithal to process paragraphs or even long sentences. That's why the six-word soundbite had to be invented.

It sounds like you are disparaging the many fine Americans who need facts reduced to soundbites of six words or less. Shame on you!
  #181  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:04 PM
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Is this the line NPR is taking now?
Willy thinks the NPR is leftist media. How cute.
  #182  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:04 PM
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I had a post (#86) along these same lines. Maybe he'll respond to yours; he ignored mine.
Well, he did at least offer you this in response to a different post.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'm confused by your post, so back at ya.
So, there's that I guess.
  #183  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:24 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
That's giving the original post entirely too much credit: HD has explicitly disavowed the idea that which side has more mobs is at issue, claiming instead that the statement is trivially true and therefore worth responding to. It's the most absurd bait-and-switch I've ever seen, and is super ultra pointless from the get-go.
I said that my point in starting the thread wasn't to discuss it, but if that's what everyone wants to discuss, I'm fine with it (as I indicated in post #156). Does anyone have any data on which side has "more" mobs?
  #184  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:35 PM
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I said that my point in starting the thread wasn't to discuss it, but if that's what everyone wants to discuss, I'm fine with it (as I indicated in post #156). Does anyone have any data on which side has "more" mobs?
To eliminate multiple "No-that doesn't count" responses, how would you define "mobs"?
  #185  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:43 PM
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People carrying signs: mobs.
People carrying tiki torches: not mobs.
  #186  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:10 PM
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Does anyone have any data on which side has "more" mobs?
Do you think Trump or any other Republicans came up with data to back up this slogan before sending it out into the world? Do you think Trump or any other Republicans even care about any objective truth behind it?

Generally the side making a claim is responsible for providing evidence for that claim, but I'm guessing the lack of evidence isn't going to stop anyone from repeating it.

Last edited by steronz; 10-22-2018 at 02:10 PM.
  #187  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:24 PM
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People carrying signs: mobs.
People carrying tiki torches: not mobs.
Well, maybe not. What little I saw of the tiki-torches parade, I couldn't get any kind of fix as to the numbers. We saw a crowd of marchers going past the camera, maybe twenty, thirty. A glimpse, perhaps, not representative of their actual massive numbers? Or did it give the appearance of a Big Hairy Ass Deal when, in truth, it wasn't?

And where'd they go, the Beige Shirts? Did the nationwide call to action just turn out a couple hundred flaming assholes, who then faded into the background?
  #188  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:41 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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