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  #151  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:11 PM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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Originally Posted by Penfeather View Post
Oh, you mean cultures that endorse dumping like this?




You know, you're allowed to look at your prejudices before you shoot your mouth off each time.
I object to that as much as the resident do, what has that got to do with me complaining about illegal dumping. Are you saying that the white man dumped hazardous material in a Latino neighborhood so it is ok for Latinos to dump waste in white neighborhoods?? Illegal dumping is illegal regardless of who the hell is doing it, no connection to the topic.
  #152  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:20 PM
wonky wonky is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I object to that as much as the resident do, what has that got to do with me complaining about illegal dumping. Are you saying that the white man dumped hazardous material in a Latino neighborhood so it is ok for Latinos to dump waste in white neighborhoods?? Illegal dumping is illegal regardless of who the hell is doing it, no connection to the topic.
From my POV, you keep calling out things that black people do, or immigrants do, and when it's pointed out that all people do these things (or that you do these things), you just shrug.

You: "Black people breathe. I have a problem with that."

Us: "All people breathe. You breathe."

You: "I never said we didn't!"
  #153  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:43 PM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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I am not calling it out as being so wrong and offensive as much as I am calling it out as being detrimental to an already challenging life scenario they are facing. They need every advantage they can get and there best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. I acknowledged earlier that it wasn't really fair but I don't feel fair is something we have a lot of control over. Once a group successfully integrates things get fairer but as a group it takes a little extra effort.
  #154  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:47 PM
Eonwe Eonwe is offline
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I'll repeat some questions I had earlier that might have gotten lost:

If what you say is true. How long has it been true? Have blacks just been their own worst enemy since the Civil War? Since they got the right to vote? Since the invention of rap music? Since they started getting good at (allowed to play) basketball? Did blacks always have bad role models, or did that problem happen at a moment in history. I'd honestly like to know when that was, and if you could describe what that transition looked like. When did black Americans turn their back on American culture and community to follow anti-leaders?
  #155  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:56 PM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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Originally Posted by Eonwe View Post
I'll repeat some questions I had earlier that might have gotten lost:

If what you say is true. How long has it been true? Have blacks just been their own worst enemy since the Civil War? Since they got the right to vote? Since the invention of rap music? Since they started getting good at (allowed to play) basketball? Did blacks always have bad role models, or did that problem happen at a moment in history. I'd honestly like to know when that was, and if you could describe what that transition looked like. When did black Americans turn their back on American culture and community to follow anti-leaders?
I can't answer that and I don't think it has been the same in all parts of the country. I know white attitudes have been steadily improving since the 1960's even in the deep south I have seen a huge improvement. This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks. Just when we start getting our side of the street cleaned up the other side starts getting messy. i am talking about a significant portion of the population but no where near the majority.
  #156  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:57 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Helena330 View Post
Well, aren't you noble? The personal choice of a lot of women is to not encumber themselves and their children with deadweight fathers. That's much better than making things worse for themselves and their families simply to have a man around.
It's been my observation, that the lives of the woman and the children are drastically improved, once the drunk abusive lazy "daddy" is told "either you disappear or we'll MAKE you disappear".

Last edited by SteveG1; 03-08-2018 at 03:58 PM.
  #157  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:15 PM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
They need every advantage they can get and there best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream.
What if they're happy in their stream. Why do they have to change streams? Who declares which stream is the main one?
  #158  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:25 PM
Corry El Corry El is offline
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Originally Posted by andros View Post
1. The only reason black male students are disproportionately suspended and expelled is institutional racism.

2. You say you're acknowledging the role systemic and historic racism (and generational poverty?) plays in peoples' lives, but then continue with the old "personal responsibility" thing as though individual choices are made in a vacuum without context. Or rather, without your own preferred context.
.
1. I doubt that. You can attribute my opinion to bad motives if you like. I don't assume yours is, but I don't think that statement is close to true, though I couldn't give a particular alternative %.

2. Related to a history of racism, obviously yes IMO. 'Systemic racism' now, I'd probably put that as a much lesser factor than you would. But anyway some weight on the first two doesn't exclude bad choices and behavior which individuals could take personality responsibility (no scare quotes required) for and correct.

I do agree with the previous statements by various people that at least in terms of rate of change in measures of social decay (*increase* in fatherless upbringings, increase in non-participation in the workforce at prime working age etc) 'whites' are arguably in worse shape lately than non 'whites' or African-Americans specifically. But that's not something to cheer from any pro-American POV. If it was African American stats in those areas getting a lot better when white stats stayed the same, OK.

But IMO the complex mechanism of race relations is affected by a feedback mechanism related to real issues like educational achievement and crime rate differentials in absolute terms which tend to sustain anti-black feeling. I don't believe those are just bad faith arguments by people who need any excuse to not like black people, nor that are they just illusions caused by a prism of systemic racism now.

I do reject the construction of 'it's up to X as a whole to fix their problem'. I think that's consistent with rejecting the scare quoting of individual responsibility. I can see a complaint about claiming to promote individual responsibility then in the same breath talking about some special responsibility of all members of a social group to control the actions of other individuals. That's a contradiction, unless it's their own kids.
  #159  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:33 PM
mikecurtis mikecurtis is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
. . . there [sic] best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. . .
No. That's the least disruptive strategy for you. The BEST strategy is for us all to come together and adapt the "mainstream" so that nobody has to "find their way into" it!

mc
  #160  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:33 PM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
What if they're happy in their stream. Why do they have to change streams? Who declares which stream is the main one?
If they are happy that's fine with me.
  #161  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:48 PM
Crazy Canuck Crazy Canuck is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
It's been my observation, that the lives of the woman and the children are drastically improved, once the drunk abusive lazy "daddy" is told "either you disappear or we'll MAKE you disappear".
It's been my observation that threatening abusive people only improves your chances of being the victim of an assault or a homicide.
  #162  
Old 03-08-2018, 05:05 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
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Originally Posted by Penfeather View Post
Yes, imagine a decent God-fearing American town like The Angels or Saint Francis being overwhelmed by hordes of immigrants looking to make a quick buck, and being forced to change its culture and even language. I mean, you do know that California was FUCKING MEXICAN before it was FUCKING ANNEXED by the United States, right?
For all of 27 years.
  #163  
Old 03-08-2018, 05:42 PM
Penfeather Penfeather is online now
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I object to that as much as the resident do, what has that got to do with me complaining about illegal dumping. Are you saying that the white man dumped hazardous material in a Latino neighborhood so it is ok for Latinos to dump waste in white neighborhoods?? Illegal dumping is illegal regardless of who the hell is doing it, no connection to the topic.
HB: I hate cultures that dump their shit illegally.

Pf: You mean like white culture? {cites egregious example}

HB, moving goalposts frantically: no, when white people dump shit it's because it's a few thoughtless individuals; when brown people do it, it's because they're feckless and dirty.
  #164  
Old 03-08-2018, 05:58 PM
Helena330 Helena330 is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I am not calling it out as being so wrong and offensive as much as I am calling it out as being detrimental to an already challenging life scenario they are facing. They need every advantage they can get and there best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. I acknowledged earlier that it wasn't really fair but I don't feel fair is something we have a lot of control over. Once a group successfully integrates things get fairer but as a group it takes a little extra effort.
They don't need "advantage" they need equality. It's not up to them to "integrate", it's up to white people to recognize the institutional racism WE'VE perpetrated and fix it.

And to whatever dumbass said that black people now don't suffer because of slavery, this is just one example: Capital punishment in this country can be pretty convincingly traced to lynchings of slaves and random black people.

Shall we discuss mass incarceration now?
  #165  
Old 03-08-2018, 06:18 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks. Just when we start getting our side of the street cleaned up the other side starts getting messy.
Seriously?
  #166  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:30 PM
Stonebow Stonebow is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I can't answer that and I don't think it has been the same in all parts of the country. I know white attitudes have been steadily improving since the 1960's even in the deep south I have seen a huge improvement. This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks. Just when we start getting our side of the street cleaned up the other side starts getting messy. i am talking about a significant portion of the population but no where near the majority.
I will try to help you out. White attitudes about black behavior have NEVER tracked with actual black behavior. Ever. Virtually every sterotype was invented as a means to control the conduct of slaves/freedment and continued from there. As with any population you can find individuals that match the type, and if those are the ones you choose to see to the exclusion of all others, you can maintain your woldview and do as you like.
  #167  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:48 AM
Monty Monty is online now
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Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
Seriously?
I think he meant to say wrong side of the tracks, but thought that might just be a bit too much.
  #168  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:54 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks.
And I feel you're a cowardly jackass racist shitbag. Show me on the doll where the bad black man touched you.
  #169  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:28 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I can't answer that and I don't think it has been the same in all parts of the country. I know white attitudes have been steadily improving since the 1960's even in the deep south I have seen a huge improvement. This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks. Just when we start getting our side of the street cleaned up the other side starts getting messy. i am talking about a significant portion of the population but no where near the majority.
So often, I think that people who are really afraid to confront their own prejudices try to take credit for the improvements made by those who aren't too afraid.

If attitudes are getting better, it's not because of thinking like yours. You haven't cleaned up your side of the street. You are sitting in a lawn chair in a pile of litter pointing over at your neighbors and demanding they do something.

Listen, we all have biases. If you read that and recoil, or if you want to yell at me for saying it, I bet people in this thread can provide lots of interesting reading. We all have biases. If we want to approach the world fairly, to approach people fairly, we need to confront those biases. We need to challenge our world views, even if that makes us uncomfortable or makes us realize we've been a jerkface.

And this isn't to say you can't hate when a person does something. But when a black person does something, she isn't her whole race. You know this when it comes to white people. You know white people are individuals. But I don't think you really get that about people of other races. You want to use cognitive shorthand and, well, much of our cognitive shorthand is really fucking racist.

If I don't say this to you, or you don't read it, or you ignore it, it's still true. I'm not creating your biases by speaking of them. You wouldn't be creating your biases by investigating them. We can think about our thinking and we can challenge it every day. We don't need to act on instinct and we don't need to defend a lack of intellectual effort.
  #170  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:00 AM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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Originally Posted by wonky View Post
So often, I think that people who are really afraid to confront their own prejudices try to take credit for the improvements made by those who aren't too afraid.

If attitudes are getting better, it's not because of thinking like yours. You haven't cleaned up your side of the street. You are sitting in a lawn chair in a pile of litter pointing over at your neighbors and demanding they do something.

Listen, we all have biases. If you read that and recoil, or if you want to yell at me for saying it, I bet people in this thread can provide lots of interesting reading. We all have biases. If we want to approach the world fairly, to approach people fairly, we need to confront those biases. We need to challenge our world views, even if that makes us uncomfortable or makes us realize we've been a jerkface.

And this isn't to say you can't hate when a person does something. But when a black person does something, she isn't her whole race. You know this when it comes to white people. You know white people are individuals. But I don't think you really get that about people of other races. You want to use cognitive shorthand and, well, much of our cognitive shorthand is really fucking racist.

If I don't say this to you, or you don't read it, or you ignore it, it's still true. I'm not creating your biases by speaking of them. You wouldn't be creating your biases by investigating them. We can think about our thinking and we can challenge it every day. We don't need to act on instinct and we don't need to defend a lack of intellectual effort.
I am hardly sitting in a lawn chair, I have spent the past 28 years doing volunteer work with ex cons and addicts of all races. When I had my business for 10 years I went out of my way to support local black run businesses and start ups as well as hiring black employees in a snow white commercial complex. I put up with a lot of racist customers comments and even some lost accounts over this. I also went out of my way to employ and nurture black employees throughout my decades of running diesel repair shops. So I have and continue to be in the trenches on this issue because I believe in equality. I just get very angry at that 20 percent or whatever it is that continues to reinforce negative stereo types and the people that make excuses for them.
  #171  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:07 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I am hardly sitting in a lawn chair, I have spent the past 28 years doing volunteer work with ex cons and addicts of all races. When I had my business for 10 years I went out of my way to support local black run businesses and start ups as well as hiring black employees in a snow white commercial complex. I put up with a lot of racist customers comments and even some lost accounts over this. I also went out of my way to employ and nurture black employees throughout my decades of running diesel repair shops. So I have and continue to be in the trenches on this issue because I believe in equality. I just get very angry at that 20 percent or whatever it is that continues to reinforce negative stereo types and the people that make excuses for them.
Why do you make excuses for the people who have and cherish those negative stereotypes? Why do you make excuses for your own use of them?
  #172  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:15 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
I am hardly sitting in a lawn chair, I have spent the past 28 years doing volunteer work with ex cons and addicts of all races. When I had my business for 10 years I went out of my way to support local black run businesses and start ups as well as hiring black employees in a snow white commercial complex. I put up with a lot of racist customers comments and even some lost accounts over this. I also went out of my way to employ and nurture black employees throughout my decades of running diesel repair shops. So I have and continue to be in the trenches on this issue because I believe in equality. I just get very angry at that 20 percent or whatever it is that continues to reinforce negative stereo types and the people that make excuses for them.
Part of what reinforces stereotypes is attitudes like yours. You're not hateful, but you're still lumping together all the bad behavior by any black person as if it reflects on the whole race, but not doing so for white people. You shouldn't do that for anyone. A black person behaving poorly says no more about black people as a group than a white person behaving badly does about white people as a group.
  #173  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:25 AM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Part of what reinforces stereotypes is attitudes like yours. You're not hateful, but you're still lumping together all the bad behavior by any black person as if it reflects on the whole race, but not doing so for white people. You shouldn't do that for anyone. A black person behaving poorly says no more about black people as a group than a white person behaving badly does about white people as a group.
You are not making one distinction. I am lumping them together only to the extent that I am looking for a best outcome strategy. I believe that good outcomes are self reinforcing. I would love to see things always be fair but it doesn't appear that will ever be a driving force.
  #174  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:29 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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You are not making one distinction. I am lumping them together only to the extent that I am looking for a best outcome strategy. I believe that good outcomes are self reinforcing. I would love to see things always be fair but it doesn't appear that will ever be a driving force.
You are making things less fair. You are doing that.
  #175  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:03 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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You are not making one distinction. I am lumping them together only ... .
emph. mine.

Don't you see what you're doing? Lumping "THEM" together?
Because "them" is different than "us?"

Using words like "you people" and "them" while describing other ethnic groups makes any point you may be about to make far less valid. It's like you're standing on the outside looking at "them" on the inside. Think about this.

Then you say; "I would love to see things always be fair but it doesn't appear that will ever be a driving force."

You know, I believe you really do, but that will never happen until everyone start thinking "one society, one goal."
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  #176  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:17 PM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is online now
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Originally Posted by Biggirl View Post
So, according to you here, I can finally hang out in mixed company having learned the way to comport myself after generations of being, well, too black. It only took a president and some athletes to show me how to act more like a white person.



I wonder how many will come in here and claim that calling this bullshit racist is going too far. Especially since he can't be a racist since he's dated quite a few blacks (although, heaven forbid, not AMERICAN blacks).



No, your head isn't in the sand, it is wedged far up your tightly puckered white anus. Because it isn't racist AT ALL to claim black people don't act right unless they act the way you think is correct. Thanks for the advice on how to succeed. That was mighty white of you.
I don't think he cares.
  #177  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:04 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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My city has a Little Sweden neighborhood. It's a crack-ridden hellhole.
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  #178  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:36 PM
Nava Nava is online now
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I'm so confused. Why are racists so fixated on the bad blacks, when it is obvious to me that bad whites are the ones who are fucking this country up right now.

Get your own fucking house in order before you start talking about mine.
Since it's the Pit, can I be sizeist? The ones in the "will rise again" pic made me think "not without help they won't".


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For all of 27 years.
I am reasonably sure that the Independence of Mexico didn't change the language or the laws as much as the Blue Boys did.
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Last edited by Nava; 03-09-2018 at 09:37 PM.
  #179  
Old 03-10-2018, 05:56 AM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC View Post
You are not making one distinction. I am lumping them together only to the extent that I am looking for a best outcome strategy. I believe that good outcomes are self reinforcing. I would love to see things always be fair but it doesn't appear that will ever be a driving force.
HBDC -
- You offer up what you are seeing, and your explanation for it.
- Others, many of them African American, are sharing MANY other perspectives for how to regard the situation.
- You stand firm on your POV based on the fact that you are a Practical Realist and just calling out the Truth about the hard choices that people of color have to make.

You have not listened. You have not sought connection and common ground. You have sought to portray yourself as Correct and sympathetic to the fact that others canít see things as plainly as you.

Can you see how you come across as a closed-minded insufferable white guy who is Ďsplaining to people who have lived their own version of that reality and gained different POVs?

What makes you Correct-er than anyone else?
Is there anything you should be learning from this?
  #180  
Old 03-11-2018, 10:23 AM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Hmm, I didnít mean to kill your perfectly cromulent Pitting, Biggirl. Sorry.
  #181  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:33 AM
Kearsen Kearsen is offline
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I wonder how ending the war on drugs would affect the disparity in racial criminality?

If the only reason black folks are over represented are the drugs laws 1 of 2 things needs to happen:

1. Eliminate the war on drugs
2. Get the folks dealing/doing drugs to actually stop (ya know because it is against the law)
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  #182  
Old 03-13-2018, 11:22 AM
Crazy Canuck Crazy Canuck is offline
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2. Get the folks dealing/doing drugs to actually stop (ya know because it is against the law)
Bwahaha! Thanks, I needed a great laugh today.
  #183  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:21 PM
Skinnybones Lampshade Skinnybones Lampshade is offline
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I am very late to this thread but, for what it's worth, I'd like to add my hearty cheer for Biggirl for this excellent pitting.

Last edited by Skinnybones Lampshade; 03-13-2018 at 08:21 PM.
  #184  
Old 03-16-2018, 06:31 PM
gigi gigi is offline
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I have a college right down the street from my house. On any given day you might have a few hundred students milling around on the surrounding main streets and businesses. The vast majority are all behaving themselves and they are all races but the few who are acting like idiots are usually some rowdy black kids. They don't represent the other black kids that are obviously doing the right thing but they are never the less making an impression that sticks with people who are not so familiar with other races besides the ones they grew up with.
You have got to be shitting me. There's no way in a college town that all kinds of kids aren't acting "rowdy" at any given time.
  #185  
Old 03-16-2018, 10:39 PM
raventhief raventhief is online now
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You have got to be shitting me. There's no way in a college town that all kinds of kids aren't acting "rowdy" at any given time.
No, obviously it's just the black kids.
  #186  
Old 03-17-2018, 08:35 PM
Great Antibob Great Antibob is offline
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Yeah, when the rowdy college kids are black, they're the few bad apples making the rest look bad.

When the rowdy college kids aren't black, they're clearly just 'kids being kids' and not actually making trouble.

Very clear and not racist at all. Nosirree, not at all.
  #187  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:37 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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Originally Posted by Great Antibob View Post
Yeah, when the rowdy college kids are black, they're the few bad apples making the rest look bad.
When the rowdy college kids are black, it just goes to show that black kids are rowdy, obviously. And dangerous. I'd better carry a gun because I've heard that pepper spray and mace doesn't even work on them!
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