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  #151  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:37 AM
Kable Kable is offline
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Not many people want to outlaw shotguns. So I don't see how that's in the least bit relevant.
Also I think this one bears repeating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pY...pH-4MyqCdd0I_H

The lady was saved with a handgun, and this very thread indicates that the general public does not like people to carry long arms in public. What's also relevant is that this lady was saved by a 72 year man, who I have to think would have been physically unable to stop the assailant had he not been armed and most likely would have been killed himself. Agree?
  #152  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:38 AM
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Actually I think a number of people on the gun-control side want exactly that. Here's a recent admission posted on this very forum just yesterday.



It seems pretty clear to me that they know they can't get what they want now so they are going for a little at a time. I think the preferred term for that is incrementalism, and I do think incrementalism is their best shot towards their ultimate goal. A number of gun rights advocates know this and that's why they oppose it.

Also if you look up the proposals of the 1994 assault weapon ban, you will see that some shotguns, very suitable for home defense, were in fact banned. I forget though, did that have a measurable effect on crime?
Which shotguns? Also I fail to see how not many isn't congruent with your, a number.

Most gun control advocates don't want to ban shotguns. I'm pretty sure more people want to ban handguns.
  #153  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:39 AM
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Also I think this one bears repeating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pY...pH-4MyqCdd0I_H

The lady was saved with a handgun, and this very thread indicates that the general public does not like people to carry long arms in public. What's also relevant is that this lady was saved by a 72 year man, who I have to think would have been physically unable to stop the assailant had he not been armed and most likely would have been killed himself. Agree?
I don't know. But I do know that specific anecdotes are a profoundly stupid way to argue this issue.

If ten people are murdered for every one saved from assault, then it's not good argument that the one person is saved. Surely you are able to understand that?
  #154  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:40 AM
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Also if you look up the proposals of the 1994 assault weapon ban, you will see that some shotguns, very suitable for home defense, were in fact banned. I forget though, did that have a measurable effect on crime?
Devil's Advocate: The guys who went on a B&E spree in the Little Rock Hillcrest neighborhood had a shotgun.
  #155  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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If ten people are murdered for every one saved from assault, then it's not good argument that the one person is saved. Surely you are able to understand that?
Rather selfishly, it depends to me upon whether I or someone I care for is the one person saved.
  #156  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:56 AM
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Rather selfishly, it depends to me upon whether I or someone I care for is the one person saved.
If you accept those numbers (hypothetically) then statistically it is more likely they'll be one of the murdered.
  #157  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:08 AM
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If you accept those numbers (hypothetically) then statistically it is more likely they'll be one of the murdered.
However slim the odds, I'd still like to stack them in my favor.
  #158  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:33 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/op...yths.html?_r=0

"In the 1990s, a team headed by Arthur Kellermann of Emory University looked at all injuries involving guns kept in the home in Memphis, Seattle and Galveston, Tex. They found that these weapons were fired far more often in accidents, criminal assaults, homicides or suicide attempts than in self-defense. For every instance in which a gun in the home was shot in self-defense, there were seven criminal assaults or homicides, four accidental shootings, and 11 attempted or successful suicides. "

1:22. Ouch.

Last edited by Ca3799; 02-03-2013 at 11:33 AM.
  #159  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:41 AM
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However slim the odds, I'd still like to stack them in my favor.
If you accept the hypothetical, banning guns would stack the odds in your favor.
  #160  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:43 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/op...yths.html?_r=0

"In the 1990s, a team headed by Arthur Kellermann of Emory University looked at all injuries involving guns kept in the home in Memphis, Seattle and Galveston, Tex. They found that these weapons were fired far more often in accidents, criminal assaults, homicides or suicide attempts than in self-defense. For every instance in which a gun in the home was shot in self-defense, there were seven criminal assaults or homicides, four accidental shootings, and 11 attempted or successful suicides. "

1:22. Ouch.
Most gun enthusiasts don't count suicides. Even though having a gun increases the chance you'll commit suicide. Everyone has been at low emotional points and people who have a gun handy when that happens are more likely to impulsively turn the switch.
  #161  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:44 AM
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http://americablog.com/2013/02/walma...dismember.html

Walmart thought it was OK to sell this dude a rifle. Guess what happened?
  #162  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:01 PM
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If you accept the hypothetical, banning guns would stack the odds in your favor.
No, I'm 5' and weigh 110 Lbs. A Junior High football player can beat the hell out of me.
I'd be an easy mark for B&E.
  #163  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:06 PM
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No, I'm 5' and weigh 110 Lbs. A Junior High football player can beat the hell out of me.
I'd be an easy mark for B&E.
Yeah, but you are still much likelier to accidentally be shot, purposely be shot, or kill yourself as an unplanned impulse than to use a gun to fend off that JV Footballer at the prom.
  #164  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:14 PM
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I apologize, I took you as one of the anti-gunners who only focus on the bad and ignore the good that guns are used for, and I am perhaps a bit oversensitive given the already poisoned title of this thread. As for reading, I've been talking about these articles in some other posts of mine which I think are well done.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...about-violence

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...dle-of-the-gun

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/faq-on-violence

Going forward though my counter-offensive plan is to post a good news story for every bad news story I see, and I think with the videos are harder for people to just explain away than are statistics that on this subject nobody seems to trust and don't seem to sway anyone. With a video or 911 transcript my hope is that seeing/hearing is believing.
As the OP, I don't think the title is as poisoned as the "Stupid Republican/Democrat" threads I took the title from.

My intent (foolishly, in respect) was to see 'stupid' news rather than endless advocacy. Stupid things like nut jobs in Kroger or in the Senate proposing bills like Feinstein. Lots to poke fun at without debate. The stupid is strong on both sides of this national debate...

Carry on.

Last edited by jasg; 02-03-2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Typo
  #165  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:15 PM
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Yeah, but you are still much likelier to accidentally be shot, purposely be shot, or kill yourself as an unplanned impulse than to use a gun to fend off that JV Footballer at the prom.
I don't have an argument with him at the prom, it's when he breaks down my door that I have an argument.
  #166  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:46 PM
YogSothoth YogSothoth is offline
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I don't have an argument with him at the prom, it's when he breaks down my door that I have an argument.
The point is that you're more likely to have killed or harmed yourself with that gun than used it on the off chance he breaks down your door. You're essentially holding on to a time bomb that could go off at any minute hoping that it will only blow up when you throw it. Its much more likely to go off in your hands.
  #167  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:10 PM
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The point is that you're more likely to have killed or harmed yourself with that gun than used it on the off chance he breaks down your door. You're essentially holding on to a time bomb that could go off at any minute hoping that it will only blow up when you throw it. Its much more likely to go off in your hands.
I've made it to 56 so far.
Dad had a gun at the house, and I've had one all the time I've lived alone.
I've so far only shot a raccoon that may have been rabid and a copperhead that was in my Wife's parking space.
If I had a concealed carry permit, and had I driven my Wife to work when the guy crawled in her car window, saying, "I have a gun and I'm going to kill you", I'd have used it a third time.
  #168  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:19 PM
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I've made it to 56 so far.
Dad had a gun at the house, and I've had one all the time I've lived alone.
I've so far only shot a raccoon that may have been rabid and a copperhead that was in my Wife's parking space.
If I had a concealed carry permit, and had I driven my Wife to work when the guy crawled in her car window, saying, "I have a gun and I'm going to kill you", I'd have used it a third time.
So you are unable to understand very basic questions of probability?

You can smoke every day of your life and die at a 100 from exhaustion after sexing a pair of 19 year old twins. That doesn't mean smoking isn't bad, and isn't detrimental to society.

I wonder how common it is to be utterly unable to separate anecdote from reality. Seems more common on the right.
  #169  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:49 PM
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So you are unable to understand very basic questions of probability?
Well, I don't buy lottery tickets.
  #170  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:53 PM
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Well, I don't buy lottery tickets.
At last common ground!
  #171  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:05 PM
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In an effort to conform to the OP, I thought there was a story where the deer shot the hunter, but here is the next best.
  #172  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:08 PM
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I wonder how common it is to be utterly unable to separate anecdote from reality. Seems more common on the right.
Wait a minute, I'm left wing save for this particular issue!
  #173  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:29 PM
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In an effort to conform to the OP, I thought there was a story where the deer shot the hunter, but here is the next best.
Cue Aerosmith:

Bambi's got a gun...chicka wang wang
Hunters on the run...chicka wang wang
What are they gonna do?
When the deer can shoot you too?
  #174  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:42 PM
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A former Navy SEAL sniper and author of books about sniping was shot at a gun range today.

Clearly, this never would have happened if only the snipers and gun range attendees had been allowed to have guns to defend themselves with.
  #175  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:45 PM
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Wait a minute, I'm left wing save for this particular issue!
I know, that's why I was confused!
  #176  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:46 PM
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A former Navy SEAL sniper and author of books about sniping was shot at a gun range today.

Clearly, this never would have happened if only the snipers and gun range attendees had been allowed to have guns to defend themselves with.
More guns is surely the answer. If he had been under a pile of guns, the bullets may have deflected.

Also, it's really shitty that a hyper-competent soldier was killed by some dipshit run amok.
  #177  
Old 02-03-2013, 03:19 PM
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I don't know. But I do know that specific anecdotes are a profoundly stupid way to argue this issue.

If ten people are murdered for every one saved from assault, then it's not good argument that the one person is saved. Surely you are able to understand that?
Well then, the Newtown Conn. school shooting is just one specific anecdote about a deranged young criminal with stolen weapons. Isn't it?
  #178  
Old 02-03-2013, 03:21 PM
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How long do you plan to keep us in suspense before you tell us what your point is?
  #179  
Old 02-03-2013, 03:30 PM
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More guns is surely the answer. If he had been under a pile of guns, the bullets may have deflected.

Also, it's really shitty that a hyper-competent soldier was killed by some dipshit run amok.
Initial reports are that said dipshit was also a military-trained sniper himself.
  #180  
Old 02-03-2013, 04:15 PM
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Initial reports are that said dipshit was also a military-trained sniper himself.
I guess he's Pat Garret then.
  #181  
Old 02-03-2013, 04:19 PM
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Well then, the Newtown Conn. school shooting is just one specific anecdote about a deranged young criminal with stolen weapons. Isn't it?
Sure. 30 thousand people a year is data. The 26 are just a point.
  #182  
Old 02-03-2013, 05:35 PM
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I know they recommend that if you fall off a horse you should get back on him, but I don't recall the treatment for PTSD included taking the sufferers out shooting. In fact, I seem to recall that back in the Seventies folks would try to keep those guys away from guns. It being, y'know, sensible.

Is this a part of the belief that more guns fix everything? And is that based on, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail?" 'Cuz they need a larger took kit.

Last edited by dropzone; 02-03-2013 at 05:36 PM.
  #183  
Old 02-03-2013, 05:40 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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More guns is surely the answer. If he had been under a pile of guns, the bullets may have deflected.
A good effort my friend. But let's not get silly here.

The sniper who was shot was clearly well trained with weapons. But this was just as clearly not enough. We have to ask ourselves "why?". Well, when shooting at a range, there is a time when you have expended all the ammunition in your particular weapon, be that 5, 10 or 30 shots. It is at this time you are most vulnerable. And the folks who know your vulnerability best are your fellow shooters who are (you know they are!) counting your shots. How many does he have left before he's out?

The solution is clear. All gun ranges should have trained armed guards, standing well behind the customers. They will never be out of ammo. They can keep a sharp eye on the folks to the left and to the right of you, and make sure that they do not get out of line and kill you. Any move by them to swing a weapon your way and fire? BLAM! Down they go.

More guns. Armed guards. Really, the solutions is so simple, I don't see why it are not implemented immediately.
  #184  
Old 02-03-2013, 05:48 PM
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A good effort my friend. But let's not get silly here.

The sniper who was shot was clearly well trained with weapons. But this was just as clearly not enough. We have to ask ourselves "why?". Well, when shooting at a range, there is a time when you have expended all the ammunition in your particular weapon, be that 5, 10 or 30 shots. It is at this time you are most vulnerable. And the folks who know your vulnerability best are your fellow shooters who are (you know they are!) counting your shots. How many does he have left before he's out?

The solution is clear. All gun ranges should have trained armed guards, standing well behind the customers. They will never be out of ammo. They can keep a sharp eye on the folks to the left and to the right of you, and make sure that they do not get out of line and kill you. Any move by them to swing a weapon your way and fire? BLAM! Down they go.

More guns. Armed guards. Really, the solutions is so simple, I don't see why it are not implemented immediately.

This is entirely sensible. While it is sad this man died, I think all future school, theater, grocery store and random restaurant shooters should commit their future crimes at the gun range. It would be much more challenging and keep all the gun afficianodos all together in one place making the rest of us safer!
  #185  
Old 02-03-2013, 05:48 PM
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I think that, because Kyle was a sniper, he never expected a shot from less than a kilometer away to do him in. I mean, if you can't trust a guy you barely knew but whom you knew had serious mental problems to not shoot you, who can you trust?
  #186  
Old 02-03-2013, 05:49 PM
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I know they recommend that if you fall off a horse you should get back on him, but I don't recall the treatment for PTSD included taking the sufferers out shooting. In fact, I seem to recall that back in the Seventies folks would try to keep those guys away from guns. It being, y'know, sensible.

Is this a part of the belief that more guns fix everything? And is that based on, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail?" 'Cuz they need a larger took kit.
There exists the possibility that Kyle wasn't actually a licensed trauma therapist.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:56 PM
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"Just back from 'Nam? C'mon man, come with me tonight to the fireworks show in the swamp."
  #188  
Old 02-03-2013, 06:02 PM
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There exists the possibility that Kyle wasn't actually a licensed trauma therapist.
Likelihood, is what I think you are saying, but he and his foundation were dedicated to helping emotionally wounded veterans. Treatment is not a job for amateurs, no matter how good-hearted.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:07 PM
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"Just back from 'Nam? C'mon man, come with me tonight to the fireworks show in the swamp."
Oh, Jesus, I would hear news stories about guys who reacted poorly to Asian ladies in black pants suits because they looked too much like the VC, then see MORE Asian ladies in black pants suits at the mall. I could only think, "Sometimes it's best to not be stylish."
  #190  
Old 02-03-2013, 06:29 PM
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Here's one of the 'dog shoots man' stories.
Very stupid to have a loaded gun in the car.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:43 PM
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Here's one of the 'dog shoots man' stories.
Very stupid to have a loaded gun in the car.
I think we can all agree that this tragic situation could have been avoided by the simple solution of having more guns.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:05 PM
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I think we can all agree that this tragic situation could have been avoided by the simple solution of having more guns.
Well, yes. If the dog had to dig through a pile of unloaded guns to get to the loaded one, this tragedy would have been prevented.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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Well, yes. If the dog had to dig through a pile of unloaded guns to get to the loaded one, this tragedy would have been prevented.
Again, so close...

This poor man had only one gun in his vehicle. This was likely due to the gun-grabbers in his area that have made it so very, very difficult to obtain firearms. If only he had several guns, do you think he would have left them on a pile on the car seat? No, he would have had a proper gun rack installed in his vehicle, preventing this unfortunate, unforseeable accident.

You see? It is all the fault of the gun-grabbers. They are just like Hitler.
  #194  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:21 PM
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No, he would have had a proper gun rack installed in his vehicle, preventing this unfortunate, unforseeable accident.
The guy was a moron, having a loaded gun in the car, a poster child for You Guys.
  #195  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:25 PM
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Top Conservative Cat ‏@TeaPartyCat
Wayne LaPierre says the power outage at the #SuperBowl was caused by "violent video games."
  #196  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:34 PM
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I would like to take a moment to extend my condolences to the entire gay community for today's Super Bowl outcome.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:40 PM
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Top Conservative Cat ‏@TeaPartyCat
Wayne LaPierre says the power outage at the #SuperBowl was caused by "violent video games."
Oh come on, no link?
  #198  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:41 PM
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I would like to take a moment to extend my condolences to the entire gay community for today's Super Bowl outcome.
This is a Sporting Event, right?
I'm not into watching grown men play children's games.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:20 PM
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Again, so close...

This poor man had only one gun in his vehicle. This was likely due to the gun-grabbers in his area that have made it so very, very difficult to obtain firearms. If only he had several guns, do you think he would have left them on a pile on the car seat? No, he would have had a proper gun rack installed in his vehicle, preventing this unfortunate, unforseeable accident.

You see? It is all the fault of the gun-grabbers. They are just like Hitler.
He should have just kept his gun with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction, and certainly had his safety on.

For something else funny, check out this old man popping rounds off inside city limits:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e487pIVPWO4
  #200  
Old 02-03-2013, 09:28 PM
Kable Kable is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobohan View Post
Sure. 30 thousand people a year is data. The 26 are just a point.
That's all I'm doing too. Just making a point.
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