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  #1  
Old 02-21-2018, 10:12 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Hey Bernie, go to hell and take all of your Bros with you

I voted for Bernie Sanders in my States primary, even though he was already out of the race and pissing me off by not conceding. But I still believed in much of what he was campaigning for. I also was very happy to see him move the party more to the left which was closer to where I am politically.

In all that time, it became harder to defend him. It was hard when all that shit went down in Nevada, and Jeff Weaver issued statements that inflamed the conspiracy theorists in his fan club.

It was difficult when I felt like he did not do all he could fast enough to back Hillary Clinton.

It was frustrating when he would be willing to sell everything out 4 single-payer healthcare, but didn't seem to mind looking very passive on guns. He seemed oblivious why black people in urban areas never warmed to him. Possibly because immediately after his civil rights accomplishments, he ran off to Lily white Vermont and proceeded to forget all about black people.

Even as recently as the elections in Virginia, when Bernie's candidate lost and he and other holier-than-thou, more Progressive than thou groups did all they could to sabotage those races that were so important. That infuriated me.

But now, I see this.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ference-420528

I am beyond done with this charlatan. For someone who claimed to be against everything Donald Trump stood for, he certainly fucking acts a lot like him.

I made a mistake putting my faith in Bernie Sanders. He is no different than anyone else, willing to sell out the entire country to save his own skin.

He won't get my vote ever again. And I hope the Democrats tell him he's not welcome to run as a democrat in 2020 because fuck him. He wants to be an independent so bad, let him have fun with that in a presidential election.

It really sucks that a bunch of people on the left, maybe enough that Democrats are unable 2 win national elections, are likely to follow him wherever he goes. But I can't control that. I can control me, and he's fucking dead to me.

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  #2  
Old 02-21-2018, 10:27 PM
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Who is Bernie?
  #3  
Old 02-21-2018, 10:41 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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Who is Bernie?
Bridget loved him back in the 1970s.
  #4  
Old 02-21-2018, 11:03 PM
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If you're mad now, wait'll you see the other candidates!

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  #5  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:33 AM
Ruken Ruken is online now
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Since the OP couldn't be bothered, link is to "Bernie blames Hillary for allowing Russian interference"
  #6  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:45 AM
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If we're still going to be complaining about the 2016 election in 2050, can someone stop the planet so I can get off of it?
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:56 AM
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I was never a big Bernie supporter, but I did admire him and was pleased with the new energy he brought to the Democratic Party(*). But this is ridiculous! F*ck Bernie Sanders!

(Speaking of Democrats, would it hurt the Big Baby Bernie so vewy vewy much to show support and join the Party?)
  #8  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:05 AM
Inbred Mm domesticus Inbred Mm domesticus is offline
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The last paragraph reads:

Quote:
Mueller's indictment provides further evidence that the Russian government interfered in 2016. It also shows that they tried to turn my supporters against Hillary Clinton in the primary and general election. I unequivocally condemn such interference.
First, Sanders probably doesn't understand much of anything about this interference.

Second, he got defensive in an interview. It's normal, and he is getting all of his information second-hand.

Third, by the time this story was posted, the above quote was issued on Sanders' Twitter account.

He's taken about 3 different positions in 4 days, but it's understandable given the statement and his honestly held beliefs about the purpose of his campaign.

I don't agree with you voting for him in the primary, but this is a reasonable mistake. I'll wait to see if he continues taken several positions on the topic before condemning him.

The article's headline is misleading.
  #9  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:21 AM
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He always struck me as a crackpot.
  #10  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:43 AM
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The article's headline is misleading.
A Politico headline misleading? Well, you could just knock me over with a feather.
  #11  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:39 AM
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Bernie is Barney Miller's bro?
  #12  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
But now, I see this.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ference-420528

I am beyond done with this charlatan. For someone who claimed to be against everything Donald Trump stood for, he certainly fucking acts a lot like him.
What, exactly, is the problem here? What do you think Sanders is saying?
  #13  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:34 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Doesn't seem like Bernie's finest performance, but that was one very slanted article.

Quote:
Sanders and his former campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, presented a series of self-serving statements that were not accurate, and that track with efforts by Trump and his supporters to undermine the credibility of the Mueller probe.
"Self-serving" is an extremely subjective and highly uncharitable description.
And comparing Sanders' and Weaver's responses to the behaviour of Trump et al is a ludicrous stretch.

Quote:
In the interview, Sanders repeatedly said that the attention should be on Trump’s denials of Russian activity — an assertion he's made repeatedly since Friday's indictment.

But in doing so, he floated his own conspiracy theory.
“You have a president of the United States not saying that [Russians meddled in the election]. What exactly is going on? And you have speculation: ‘Do the Russians really own him?’” Sanders said. When pressed by the host if he believed that the Russians do have something compromising on the president, Sanders said, “I don’t know. But something [is] very weird.”
That is not Sanders "floating his own conspiracy theory". That is something that has been speculated about openly and broadly since before Trump was elected.

The quotes taken from Sanders and Weaver actually don't seem all that bad if you care to parse them in an unbiased way, but the way they are framed, and the way the article is structured, and the well-poisoning title make me suspect the author's primary intent is to cast Sanders in an unfavorable light.

Quote:
Footnote to the article: CLARIFICATION: An earlier version of this story did not include Bernie Sanders' statement that his own campaign needs to be among those that condemn Russian activity.
That was quite a significant omission.
  #14  
Old 02-22-2018, 12:13 PM
Thing Fish Thing Fish is offline
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Yeah, this article appears to be a severely biased anti-Bernie hit job. Not Carlson, above, points out some of the more egregious examples of its distortions. Here is an article looking at the issue with the opposite bias.

From this, we can learn that the following two paragraphs from the Politico article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Politico
Mueller’s indictment states that the 13 Russians indicted “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.”

Among the evidence the indictment cites is a message from the day after Sanders and Trump won their New Hampshire primaries. "Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on ‘politics in the USA’ and to ‘use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump — we support them.),” the document read.
quote the ONLY TWO MENTIONS OF BERNIE SANDERS IN THE 37,000 WORD INDICTMENT. There is no evidence presented that the Russians were actively helping Sanders, except to the extent that they weren't actively trying to hurt him. Moreover, the vast majority of the anti-Clinton propaganda with which the Russians targeted pro-Sanders FB groups and the like happened AFTER Clinton had clinched the nomination. This makes it appear that they weren't "supporting" a candidate who had already dropped out, they were trying to discourage Bernie supporters from voting at all, thus helping the candidate who they WERE actively supporting, Donald Trump.

This article's claim that Sanders is somehow mirroring Trump's efforts to discredit the Mueller probe, and implications that the Russians were "supporting" Sanders in the same way they were supporting Trump, are simply false and despicable.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:21 PM
cuauhtemoc cuauhtemoc is offline
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The right way to respond to all this would have been "I have come to understand that the Russians were interfering with American politics on my behalf in order to hurt Hillary Clinton. I reject their support and condemn their interference in the strongest possible terms." And that's it. There was no need to blame the Clinton campaign for anything. Plus, he's all over the place on whether he even believes the Russians supported his campaign.

And "No, they weren't supporting me, they were just trying to hurt my opponent" is a weasel thing to say, because in this case they're the same thing.

No, I don't like this at all.

Last edited by cuauhtemoc; 02-22-2018 at 12:24 PM.
  #16  
Old 02-22-2018, 12:25 PM
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Like Bernie Sanders, who I strongly supported in 2016 and will likely support again if he runs again, I identify as an independent rather than a Democrat. Also like Bernie Sanders, I will absolutely vote for whoever the Democrats nominate, because stopping Trump has to be our first priority. Too bad that the OP, whom I am guessing does identify strongly as a Democrat, appears to feel that expressing his personal animosity is more important than preventing Trump's re-election.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Who is Bernie?
A washed up "has been" who has shit the bed, as far as I'm concerned. The OP is not the only one who has a hearty "fuck you" for him.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:34 PM
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The right way to respond to all this would have been "I have come to understand that the Russians were interfering with American politics on my behalf in order to hurt Hillary Clinton. I reject their support and condemn their interference in the strongest possible terms." And that's it. There was no need to blame the Clinton campaign for anything. Plus, he's all over the place on whether he even believes the Russians supported his campaign.

And "No, they weren't supporting me, they were just trying to hurt my opponent" is a weasel thing to say, because in this case they're the same thing.

No, I don't like this at all.
From the Politico article:
Quote:
Sanders issued a lengthy statement calling the Russian involvement a “direct assault on the free democratic systems that stand in contrast to the autocratic, nationalistic kleptocracy of Vladimir Putin and his backers in the Russian oligarchy” which “deserves unconditional condemnation.” He said that goes for “any candidate or active opposition to any candidate,” and listed most other candidates and campaigns whose support by Russians was detailed in the indictment — including "my own."

"Mueller's indictment provides further evidence that the Russian government interfered in 2016. It also shows that they tried to turn my supporters against Hillary Clinton in the primary and general election. I unequivocally condemn such interference," he wrote.
How exactly do these statements fall short of what you would like him to say? Is "unequivocally condemn" too equivocal for you? And I would like to see any cites that Sanders said anything which could reasonably be interpreted as "blaming" the Clinton campaign for Russian interference.

And of course there is a meaningful difference between supporting a candidate and attacking their opponent, once the election is over. At the time that the vast majority of the Russian propaganda was disseminated, Bernie had already dropped out, so it's ridiculous to say that they were "supporting" him. Rather, they were trying to turn his former supporters against Clinton.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:36 PM
Thing Fish Thing Fish is offline
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A washed up "has been" who has shit the bed, as far as I'm concerned. The OP is not the only one who has a hearty "fuck you" for him.
I was going to try to craft some witty reply to this that wouldn't violate board rules, but instead I just decided to donate $10 to Bernie's PAC in your honor.
  #20  
Old 02-22-2018, 12:48 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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I was going to try to craft some witty reply to this that wouldn't violate board rules, but instead I just decided to donate $10 to Bernie's PAC in your honor.
That's nice, that's very nice
  #21  
Old 02-22-2018, 12:52 PM
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I was going to try to craft some witty reply to this that wouldn't violate board rules, but instead I just decided to donate $10 to Bernie's PAC in your honor.
+1


and the OP who feels the need to pit Bernie at this point, go to hell.
  #22  
Old 02-22-2018, 12:53 PM
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I'm glad to see all of the acrimony from the last Democratic presidential primary has been put behind us.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:32 PM
cuauhtemoc cuauhtemoc is offline
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Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
From the Politico article:


How exactly do these statements fall short of what you would like him to say? Is "unequivocally condemn" too equivocal for you?
I want him to specifically say that Russian efforts to raise his profile and rally his supporters are unwelcome, whether they happened during his campaign or after it was over. He doesn't seem to understand that he has nothing to defend himself from here. The Mueller indictment does not accuse him of anything, and yet he seems to resent the fact that it mentions him at all. It's not a good look for him. It kinda reminds me of somebody else.

Quote:
And I would like to see any cites that Sanders said anything which could reasonably be interpreted as "blaming" the Clinton campaign for Russian interference.
Nice. You're pretending I said that Bernie blames Clinton for Russian interference, which makes me look stupid, and draws attention away from this, which he actually did say, quoted in the article:
Quote:
The real question to be asked is what was the Clinton campaign [doing about Russian interference]? They had more information about this than we did.
What was the purpose of this? Why is that "the real question to be asked?" Lock Her Up much?

Quote:
And of course there is a meaningful difference between supporting a candidate and attacking their opponent, once the election is over. At the time that the vast majority of the Russian propaganda was disseminated, Bernie had already dropped out, so it's ridiculous to say that they were "supporting" him. Rather, they were trying to turn his former supporters against Clinton.
Okay, fine, there's a meaningful difference, I concede this point.
  #24  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:49 PM
Thing Fish Thing Fish is offline
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If you don't think that what he said meets your expectations, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders, again, with emphasis added
It also shows that they tried to turn my supporters against Hillary Clinton in the primary and general election. I unequivocally condemn such interference.
And you did say "There was no need to blame the Clinton campaign for anything". So you didn't explicitly agree with the OP's cited article that Sanders "blamed Clinton for Russian interference", but I thought it was a reasonable inference from that that you did agree with it. Apologies if I was mistaken.

I'm not sure what to make of his "real question" comment, or on what grounds he claims that the Clinton camp had more information about the Russian interference than he did. I suppose this could be construed as blaming the Clinton campaign for not having more effectively addressed the Russian interference, which is hugely different from blaming them for the interference itself.

It wasn't the most artfully phrased thing he could have said, but I don't think it comes close to justifying the OP's tantrum.

Last edited by Thing Fish; 02-22-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 02-22-2018, 01:54 PM
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I don't see how anything along the lines of "but Hillary" was necessary, and bringing her up just serves to reopen the wounds that we really need to let heal up if we want any chance to beat Trump and the GOP in 2018 and 2020. It's not helpful and seems to be the kind of thing a child would do, attempt to deflect the attention to someone else. Especially unnecessary since he wasn't even being accused of anything. Why do you think he threw in the "but Hillary" remark? Do you think it was a helpful thing to do?
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Last edited by Airbeck; 02-22-2018 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:11 PM
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Not sure if you're addressing me, Airbeck, but, no, I agree that it seems unhelpful and I would have preferred he just leave that bit out. So if your standard of purity is "I will never vote for any politician who has ever said anything in his or her life that wasn't directly on point during an interview", then the OP's reaction is entirely justified and not...well, not the sort of thing a child would do. Not sure who you're going to be able to vote for, though.

Also, I'm basing my judgment of Sanders' statement on it being quoted out of context in a sleazy, biased hit piece. It might well be that it would make more sense in context.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:34 PM
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I'm not defending the OP, but I do think that he should not have made the "but Hillary" remark since the point of the whole thing is that the Russian trolls were trying to exacerbate the fissure between Bernie and Hillary supporters. So why continue the Russian trolls' work for them. I would have definitely voted for Bernie had he won the nomination, and I will certainly vote for him if he ends up being the nominee in 2020. He really needs to let the Hillary thing go though. We need to be united going into 2018 and 2020. Someone trying to be a leader for us all should know that and act accordingly.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 02-22-2018 at 02:35 PM.
  #28  
Old 02-22-2018, 03:33 PM
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I'm not defending the OP, but I do think that he should not have made the "but Hillary" remark since the point of the whole thing is that the Russian trolls were trying to exacerbate the fissure between Bernie and Hillary supporters. So why continue the Russian trolls' work for them. I would have definitely voted for Bernie had he won the nomination, and I will certainly vote for him if he ends up being the nominee in 2020. He really needs to let the Hillary thing go though. We need to be united going into 2018 and 2020. Someone trying to be a leader for us all should know that and act accordingly.
I was for Bernie, but he lost. He is trying to "clarify" or walk back his statements now, but they were uncalled for to begin with.


"I would say that the real question to be asked was, what was the Clinton campaign [doing]? They had more information about this than we did, and at this point we were working with them."

"I did not know Russian bots were promoting my campaign." ... The real question to be asked is why the Clinton campaign didn't do something"


... blaming Clinton, who was the main victim of the Russian meddling.


So ummm yeah.
  #29  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:31 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Since the OP couldn't be bothered, link is to "Bernie blames Hillary for allowing Russian interference"
I was posting with my phone. Sorry that I didn't feel like fucking around with making a link. Here's a link since you like them so much.
  #30  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:33 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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If we're still going to be complaining about the 2016 election in 2050, can someone stop the planet so I can get off of it?
I agree. It sure would be nice if Bernie didn't rekindle his animosity towards the woman who beat him by several million votes and whose inaction and sometimes direct action assisted her opponent in the general election. You should tell him to stop doing that.
  #31  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:36 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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What, exactly, is the problem here? What do you think Sanders is saying?
I am sorry that you are unable to either click links or understand the language on the links. What do you think he's saying with this direct quote:
Quote:
The real question to be asked is what was the Clinton campaign [doing about Russian interference]? They had more information about this than we did.
  #32  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:39 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Like Bernie Sanders, who I strongly supported in 2016 and will likely support again if he runs again, I identify as an independent rather than a Democrat. Also like Bernie Sanders, I will absolutely vote for whoever the Democrats nominate, because stopping Trump has to be our first priority. Too bad that the OP, whom I am guessing does identify strongly as a Democrat, appears to feel that expressing his personal animosity is more important than preventing Trump's re-election.
You contradict yourself, Bro. Much like the rest of the bros and Bernie himself. Because there is a huge list of things that Bernie has done or said or not done that have done nothing but help Trump up to and including these comments that prompted my thread. Yet you continue to lick at the anus of your god. Well, bros gotta bro I guess.

Bro.
  #33  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:40 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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I was going to try to craft some witty reply to this that wouldn't violate board rules, but instead I just decided to donate $10 to Bernie's PAC in your honor.
He still won't fuck you.
  #34  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:41 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Originally Posted by JackieLikesVariety View Post
+1


and the OP who feels the need to pit Bernie at this point, go to hell.
Donald Trump appreciates your compliance, comrade.
  #35  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:42 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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I'm glad to see all of the acrimony from the last Democratic presidential primary has been put behind us.
Bernie's direct quotes might have something to do with it continuing. You should bring it up with him.
  #36  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:18 PM
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I'm terrified he's going to run in 2020 as an independent, split the democratic/liberal ticket and we'll end up with 4 more years of... Republicans. However, I have reason to hope much will change between now and 2020.
  #37  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:19 PM
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Bernie's direct quotes might have something to do with it continuing. You should bring it up with him.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. He really shouldn't have brought up the "but Hillary" thing. Not helpful.

I was just commenting on the tone of the thread up to that point reminding me of the campaign all over again, was being sarcastic.
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  #38  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:34 PM
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I like Senator Bernie Sanders very much and in another year, I would have been fine with an insurgency candidacy. The problem was that too many people mistook an insurgency candidacy as a real candidacy for president, and it just wasn't. A real presidential candidate can't just run on "I'm going to disrupt the system" - I mean sure, he can, and a lot of people will vote for that guy, but that guy would be a shitty general candidate and, if by chance elected, an infinitely shittier president - and saying he'd be better than Trump is stepping over a very, very low bar.

The other problem with Sanders is that his populism cast doubt on what was the lesser of two evils. No of course I don't blame all of Hillary Clinton's failures on Bernie Sanders or his supporters, but they were a factor in Trump's success on election night. For those who were cynical about the system, he appeared credible and he enabled others to help discredit Clinton...who admittedly was a flawed candidate but wasn't this monster that everyone made her out to be.

All of that being said, I have to confess that it's hard to imagine how she would have been effective at governing knowing that the Russians would have thrown their right wing propaganda machine into overdrive and the right wing in this country would have sided with a foreign adversary over our own elected president. That's something I didn't quite see coming on November 8th, 2016 and nobody can blame the Bern for right wing treason.
  #39  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
You contradict yourself, Bro. Much like the rest of the bros and Bernie himself. Because there is a huge list of things that Bernie has done or said or not done that have done nothing but help Trump up to and including these comments that prompted my thread. Yet you continue to lick at the anus of your god. Well, bros gotta bro I guess.

Bro.
For fucks sake, you might as well be calling him a cuck or a snowflake. I used to wonder why uninformed idiots claim to see no difference between the left and the right, or between Democrat and Republican. This stupid namecalling shit is a big part of it. Grow the fuck up.
  #40  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:47 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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I'm terrified he's going to run in 2020 as an independent, split the democratic/liberal ticket and we'll end up with 4 more years of... Republicans. However, I have reason to hope much will change between now and 2020.
I think it would be worse if the Democrats let him run as one again, but I might very well be wrong. I'm done with him regardless. If it came down to a vote between him and Trump I would have to vote for him. And unlike way too many Bernie Bros, I'd do what I could to stop Trump. But man, would I hate it.

I also don't think it will get nearly that far and he'd never get my vote as an independent, so... I'll worry about that probably never.
  #41  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
I wasn't disagreeing with you. He really shouldn't have brought up the "but Hillary" thing. Not helpful.

I was just commenting on the tone of the thread up to that point reminding me of the campaign all over again, was being sarcastic.
I actually agree with you, oddly enough. I am just placing the blame where it belongs: That geriatric motherfucker's feet.
  #42  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:59 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Originally Posted by andros View Post
For fucks sake, you might as well be calling him a cuck or a snowflake. I used to wonder why uninformed idiots claim to see no difference between the left and the right, or between Democrat and Republican. This stupid namecalling shit is a big part of it. Grow the fuck up.
Sorry but if the Bro fits...

And of course by concentrating on that little three-letter word you miss the whole point: Someone who claims to be all about Bernie but also all about wanting to stop Trump has a level of cognitive dissonance that would spin Satan himself back into heaven because there is a long, long list of things Bernie did which actively assisted Trump.

And I am not even including the Russians touting Bernie because I don't blame him for that. I do blame him for the way he reacted to the news, however - another thing the right wing will pick up on. Oh yeah, they already are. (Warning: Wing Nut Daily link nobody should click)

The person I responded to is allowing his lapdog-like devotion to Bernie to ignore the fact that Bernie is helping Trump and has helped Trump, far more than he hurt him. As I said, I one supported Bernie too. I even defended him from those who slammed him. But unlike some bros (tee, hee) I was able to quit the fan club and realize that Bernie isn't helping.

You can either be a Bernie cheerleader or you can do everything you can to take Trump out. At this point the evidence says you cannot be both unless you're not paying attention.

He should appreciate the fucking wake up call and pay attention. Bernie is helping Trump. He should not be encouraged to continue to do so. Those who do are also helping Trump. If you, he or anyone else doesn't like that, too bad but don't take it up with me, take it up with Bernie.
  #43  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:26 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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People need to wake up and drop their illusions about political candidates. They're human beings not secular saints. And if they didn't have a strong sense of personal ambition, they wouldn't be running for office. Nobody just happens to wake up one morning and find themselves elected President.

Bernie Sanders is no different. He wants to be elected. And now that he knows he has a shot at getting elected, he's going to work for it. And that means knocking other candidates down if they're in his way.

I supported Hillary Clinton in both 2008 and 2016. But when she lost the nomination in 2008, I switched my support to Obama. If Sanders had received the nomination in 2016, I would have switched my support to him. If Sanders gets nominated in 2020 and he's running against Trump, I will support Sanders.

You have to support the best candidate who's available even if it's not the candidate who was your first choice.
  #44  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:48 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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The difference is that when Hillary lost to Obama she, after a very tough contentious campaign and one that was a hell of a lot closer than Bernie ever was to Hillary (did you know that they were essentially tied with raw votes?), she got to work and fully endorsed Obama. In fact, she was actually criticized at the time for taking too long. Here's an NBC News article from June 2, 2008 that goes into this. A whole three days later, she did.

Meanwhile in 2016, as early as early March, outlets such were showing, using past results, math and demographics, that he was essentially eliminated from the race. (Cite) (Cite) (Cite)

His response? Appeal to superdelegates!

Never mind that early in the race Bernie and his backers screamed about superdelegates thwarting the will of the people. When the will of the people were for Hillary Clinton, suddenly that will was far less important.

No, Bernie despite math and despite going against his own ethics, didn't concede. He dragged things out. While Donald Trump cleared away the Republican nomination, there was Hillary still dealing with Weekend At Bernie's, a dead man who didn't know he was dead but who still caused Clinton to spend money and time and energy she could have used to start against Trump. Only after he got unprecedented representation in the Democratic platform, in mid July (!) did he finally give his endorsement.

There is literally zero comparison to how Bernie handled losing to Hillary compared to how Hillary lost to Obama. Bernie's endgame sucked, it helped Trump, and he still continues to help Trump today. Fuck him.
  #45  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:55 PM
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Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
I think it would be worse if the Democrats let him run as one again, but I might very well be wrong. I'm done with him regardless. If it came down to a vote between him and Trump I would have to vote for him. And unlike way too many Bernie Bros, I'd do what I could to stop Trump. But man, would I hate it.

I also don't think it will get nearly that far and he'd never get my vote as an independent, so... I'll worry about that probably never.
The reason he's so much more dangerous as an independent is because no one can knock him out of the race. In 2016, Hillary -- though not elected -- won the primary. Bernie did eventually step aside, though I agree he took too long to do it. But I'll give him some credit for moving behind her and strongly urging his supporters to do the same.

Honestly, that's when I started to get a real sense that something was seriously wrong in the 2016 election. In every other election I've lived through (and at my age that's been a fair few), there was a good contest, then one person prevailed in the primary and amid much grumbling, everyone moved to support the victorious candidate. That didn't happen in 2016. The Bernie folks just hated Hillary with a passion that was entirely outsized for any real or perceived flaw or action on her part. They simply wouldn't budge, and it was one of the factors in her loss.

We now know that Russian intervention had a lot to do with that, based on Mueller's indictments filed against Russians last Friday.

I wonder how many Bernie supporters have taken an honest look at the extent to which they may have been influenced by that intervention. Based on some comments made in this thread, I'd wager precious few. And so the Russians continue to influence the elections going forward.
  #46  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:10 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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We now know that Russian intervention had a lot to do with that, based on Mueller's indictments filed against Russians last Friday.

I wonder how many Bernie supporters have taken an honest look at the extent to which they may have been influenced by that intervention. Based on some comments made in this thread, I'd wager precious few. And so the Russians continue to influence the elections going forward.
Bingo.

I'll admit I made a mistake. It's a shame that others cannot even in the face of all of the evidence.
  #47  
Old 02-23-2018, 12:00 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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To be cynical, Sanders must have known that he would benefit more from a Trump victory in 2016 than a Clinton victory. A Trump victory makes Sanders the de facto front runner who will be campaigning against an idiot. A Clinton victory would have made her the incumbent and Sanders would have had to wait until 2024.
  #48  
Old 02-23-2018, 12:27 AM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
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Even without being cynical, the guy has been a politician for decades and has been successful at it despite not aligning with a political party. You don't do that unless you have some political savvy. So you have to wonder how a skilled politician who claims to be against Donald Trump has done so many things that actually helped Trump.

And the dumbest of all? If he really cared about his ideals and positions, he desperately would have wanted Clinton in the White House. They might have sparred a la when Bill Clinton was in the White House and the more liberal Barney Frank was in congress holding his feet to the fire. But at the end of the day we're not discussing raising the minimum wage, we're getting the biggest tax breaks for the wealthy. We're not discussing helping those with crippling student loans, Democrats have to fight Trump from ending student loan forgiveness programs. Instead of beinh closer to universal healthcare, millions of Americans are going to be dropped from the rolls when Obamacare is choked to death.

None of his "issues" are getting any better. They are actually getting worse. It's one thing for his supporters to not see that coming; they're dumb. But a guy in politics as long as he has been? He really didn't foresee that all of the things he fought so hard for are gone and likely will be in his lifetime because Trump won? How can that be explained?

Last edited by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear; 02-23-2018 at 12:30 AM.
  #49  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:16 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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I don't think Bernie ran to win, I think he ran to make a point. And that was to demonstrate the numerical strength of the progressive wing of the party. And there is no real way to do that but to amass votes, to demonstrate popular support. A negotiation, properly conducted, has no losers. This is what we have, this is what we bring, listen to us, and we will listen to you.

I don't like Hillary, never have, but I have to admit to myself I don't perzackly know why. Just don't. But I would have crawled on my hands and knees for a hundred yards of broken glass if it would have meant her for President rather than Trump. I have little doubt the Bernie would have done much the same.

Bernie made his point, and good for him, we needed that. I know lots of Bernie supporters, even several otherwise sane people who said, early on, Bernie or Bust. Until the dark clouds of a turd storm rose over the horizon, and then they sobered up, nine out of ten. I think it was that tenth that the Russians were aiming at, but we have no real way of calculating the effectiveness.

Our coalition is a herd of cats, to be sure. But at least we don't have to hitch our wagon to be pulled by a Bible thumper, a gun nut and a greed freak.
  #50  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:38 AM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Do you really think the title of this OP is helping?

Maybe it is. Maybe the Sanders campaign needed a cutesy dismissive term for the Clintonistas, so they could hate them openly while begging for their votes. That might have been smart, somehow.

I don't know what that name would be, and it sounds kind of counterproductive to me, but someone should tell Mother Clinton that if she's going to wake up her Little Kittens and send them screaming, that at this point the entire galaxy has heard them and we're developing an immunity.
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