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  #2301  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
Yes, technically the House can change its own rules for this inquiry in particular. It would lose the semblance of bipartisanship, but it is still constitutional as far as I can tell.
It would probably do your future analysis good to realize that Trump has made it quite impossible to even feign bipartisanship nowadays. You are looking to some noble ideal, when everyone knows that the Republicans will only use an olive branch to poke the inquiry in the eye. I am no means a Democrat, I'm just not blind. If the Dems can present a case that looks honest, only the hard Rs will be crying about bipartisanship.

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Regarding the actual subpoena power, both the Nixon and Clinton impeachment inquiries the relevant committees allowed the minority party to issue subpoenas. The cites are in the letter and those resolutions were specifically adopted for the Judiciary committee's impeachment inquiries. If the general subpoena power has changed in the meantime, that does not diminish the fact that this inquiry would be breaking a pattern of deference to the minority party during presidential impeachment inquiries.
This is more silliness. Precedent is merely a guideline for all House procedures. There is no wisdom in following procedure from 45 years ago if the situation is different.
  #2302  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:11 PM
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The Clinton impeachment was bad enough, this is total bullshit!

There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail.

There were no grounds to impeach Clinton, and that was a colossal waste of time and taxpayer money. Now here go the "privileged" wanting to redeaux the same damn thing. It makes me mad.]

Trump's the best president in my lifetime, all these people are doing is looking like idiots that crave power.

Last edited by Marion Morrison; 10-09-2019 at 07:14 PM.
  #2303  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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Trump's the best president in my lifetime, all these people are doing is looking like idiots that crave power.
I agree with the second part of your sentence: Pompeo, Barr, Pence, and especially Trump are indeed looking that way.

The first part of your sentence makes me wonder exactly how old you'd have to be to make that sentence true.
  #2304  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:19 PM
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There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail. . .

It makes me mad. . .
Sixty percent of the US is mad, too (well, forty percent in another way, sure).

So I don't think that the people you'd like to see in jail are going to be the ones going there.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-09-2019 at 07:20 PM.
  #2305  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:27 PM
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There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail.
There's denial, and then there's DENIAL.
  #2306  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:38 PM
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It would probably do your future analysis good to realize that Trump has made it quite impossible to even feign bipartisanship nowadays. You are looking to some noble ideal, when everyone knows that the Republicans will only use an olive branch to poke the inquiry in the eye. I am no means a Democrat, I'm just not blind. If the Dems can present a case that looks honest, only the hard Rs will be crying about bipartisanship.
Yes. And we can be certain that Republican whining about House Democrats being "unfair" will continue at a remarkably consistent volume, completely independent of what concessions Democrats might make.

The remedy for a Congressional minority that wants to impose its wishes and desires on the majority, is to win the majority in the next election.





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This is more silliness. Precedent is merely a guideline for all House procedures. There is no wisdom in following procedure from 45 years ago if the situation is different.
Well said.
  #2307  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:57 PM
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The Clinton impeachment was bad enough, this is total bullshit!

There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail.

There were no grounds to impeach Clinton, and that was a colossal waste of time and taxpayer money. Now here go the "privileged" wanting to redeaux the same damn thing. It makes me mad.]

Trump's the best president in my lifetime, all these people are doing is looking like idiots that crave power.

Is this snark?
  #2308  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:59 PM
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There's no grounds to impeach Trump...
Have you heard that Trump withheld congressionally appropriated foreign aid to an ally who had been invaded unless they produced dirt on his political opponent?

Are you aware that Trump is actively refusing to abide by subpoenas and is instructing others to not participate in congressional investigations, which is usually regarded as obstruction of justice?
  #2309  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I agree with the second part of your sentence: Pompeo, Barr, Pence, and especially Trump are indeed looking that way.

The first part of your sentence makes me wonder exactly how old you'd have to be to make that sentence true.

Oh lawd, Orange Man Bad, amirite?

Older than you, and smarter.
  #2310  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:03 PM
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Have you heard that Trump withheld congressionally appropriated foreign aid to an ally who had been invaded unless they produced dirt on his political opponent?

Are you aware that Trump is actively refusing to abide by subpoenas and is instructing others to not participate in congressional investigations, which is usually regarded as obstruction of justice?
Are you aware you're falling for a line of bullshit?

Apparently not.
  #2311  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:04 PM
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Is this snark?

No, it's reality knocking dude. Sorry.
  #2312  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:05 PM
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There's denial, and then there's DENIAL.
What reason is there to impeach Trump?
Do elaborate.
  #2313  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:07 PM
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Are you aware you're falling for a line of bullshit?

Apparently not.
We’re going to need something more sophisticated than that sophistry.

Did Trump not make a request for dirt on Biden of a foreign government?

Is he not refusing to cooperate with an investigation?

Please explain why not. Evidence and argument is appreciated.
  #2314  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:08 PM
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Trump said Wednesday that it would be “easy” for the United States to form new alliances if Syrian Kurds leave the fight against the Islamic State to fend off a Turkish attack, noting that That's gold, Jerry!! Gold!

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-09-2019 at 08:09 PM.
  #2315  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:12 PM
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Goodness, that is truly the dumbest thing to come out of that moron’s pie-hole — and that’s saying something.

Where were the Kurds at the Battle of Bunker Hill? Well? Well?

Goodness gracious.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-09-2019 at 08:12 PM.
  #2316  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:14 PM
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From noted leftie-socialist site Fox News:

P
Quote:
ENTAGON – A member of U.S. Special Forces serving alongside the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in Syria told Fox News on Wednesday they were witnessing Turkish atrocities on the frontlines.

“I am ashamed for the first time in my career,” said the distraught soldier, who has been involved in the training of indigenous forces on multiple continents. The hardened service member is among the 1,000 or so U.S. troops who remain in Syria.

“Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It’s horrible,” the military source on the ground said. “We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement [with the Turks]. There was no threat to the Turks -- none -- from this side of the border."
I'm thinking this latest atrocity - triggered by a tweet from the very stable genius - should most definitely be rolled into the impeachment inquiry...
  #2317  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
We’re going to need something more sophisticated than that sophistry.

Did Trump not make a request for dirt on Biden of a foreign government?

Is he not refusing to cooperate with an investigation?

Please explain why not. Evidence and argument is appreciated.
The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?
  #2318  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:19 PM
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Hey, that's good!
Agreed, but when did Nostradamus get into hextraines? Or are those from the I Ching?
  #2319  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:24 PM
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The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?
Soliciting foreign interference in an American election is impeachable for the same reason that campaign finance violations regarding Stormy Daniels are impeachable: it’s illegal.

As for obstruction of justice? Wells, that’s just tradition, since it served as grounds in Clinton’s impeachment and was also part of the charges against Nixon.
  #2320  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:35 PM
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Maybe because the House rules change that effectively squashed subpoena participation by the minority party were implemented by then-majority Republicans in 2015 during the last years of the Obama administration, over objections by the Democrats.
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Oh.
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She's not "afraid" of anything, she's operating within the rules that as YamatoTwinkie pointed out were rules that Republicans made when they were in charge.

It occurs to me that, given the fact that the America-hating fuckstick is more a symptom than a syndrome, the most effective remedy for the prior lawlessness of the GOP legislators would be to reverse the rules changes that they made (as soul-satisfying as it would be to put them on the receiving end of their own fuckwittery).

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 10-09-2019 at 08:39 PM.
  #2321  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:48 PM
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Trump said Wednesday that it would be “easy” for the United States to form new alliances if Syrian Kurds leave the fight against the Islamic State to fend off a Turkish attack, noting that

That's gold, Jerry!! Gold!
Just wait until he finds out what Japan did!
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  #2322  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:53 PM
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The rebuttal at the bottom of page 8 and the top of page 9 is also convincing. In short, the House does have an oversight authority to request the very same documents, but the current requests were clearly made without exercising that authority.
In what way does the request NOT constitute an exercise If the authority to make the request?

Did you perhaps mean that the request did not explicitly invoke the authority to demand that the request be honored (and complied with)?
  #2323  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:57 PM
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Oh lawd, Orange Man Bad, amirite?
Most of us would have phrased it "The President has broken numerous laws and committed numerous impeachable offenses" but you can use whatever wording you're comfortable with. Although maybe you should avoid trying to sound like Stepin Fetchit.
  #2324  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:58 PM
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The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?
It says so in the Constitution.
  #2325  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Donald
[The Kurds] didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us in Normandy” and were only interested in fighting for “their land".


Yeah, when did the Kurds ever fight for America?

Okay, against the Ayatollah in 1979. And against Saddam Hussein in 1983. And against Saddam Hussein a second time in 1991. And against Saddam Hussein a third time in 2003. And against the Taliban. And against Al Qaeda. And against ISIS. And against Assad.

But the point is they didn't fight in Normandy!
  #2326  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:12 PM
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The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?
Remember that whole "collusion" business from a couple of years ago, and how strenuously they denied the charges? And yes, it was never proven.

Well, this Ukraine business is the same thing all over again more or less, only Trump and Pence have both admitted it and released the evidence of it. Soliciting foreign interference in an election is just about the creme de la creme of "high crimes", since there is no America without free elections and foreign countries will only screw us for their benefit if they get involved.

"We the People" is NOT foreign governments or oligarchs. Make sense?
  #2327  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Donald
[The Kurds] didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us in Normandy” and were only interested in fighting for “their land".


Yeah, when did the Kurds ever fight for America?

Okay, against the Ayatollah in 1979. And against Saddam Hussein in 1983. And against Saddam Hussein a second time in 1991. And against Saddam Hussein a third time in 2003. And against the Taliban. And against Al Qaeda. And against ISIS. And against Assad.

But the point is they didn't fight in Normandy!
Come on, man. Is this thread the Trump dumping ground in Elections? Not singling you out but every news story with Trump in the title doesn't have to be reported in the impeachment thread, does it?

Last edited by CarnalK; 10-09-2019 at 09:15 PM.
  #2328  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:17 PM
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The Clinton impeachment was bad enough, this is total bullshit!
18 USC 201(b)
18 USC 201(c)
18 USC 1951
18 USC 1001
18 USC 1961
52 USC 30121

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Trump's the best president in my lifetime, all these people are doing is looking like idiots that crave power.
This would imply that you're aware of something intelligent that he has said or done at some point during his presidency.

And note that, by that, it should be made clear that doing what people want him to do isn't smart. Nor is even doing the right thing. If we all want to kill a single mosquito known to be infected with malaria, that's in the same small room with us, the guy who says, "I know, let's light the room on fire!", is both working on what everyone wants and that is in fact the right thing to work on. But, he's still an idiot.

Going about the right things in the humanly worst way possible doesn't make someone great, that anyone thinks so just demonstrates how little the average man understands the world.

Feel free to suggest something that you think he has done, as President, that you think is being done in a reasonable fashion that is liable to succeed. I believe that you will find that it won't bear much scrutiny. And note that I say this as someone who is almost completely on board with Trump's overall policy platform.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 10-09-2019 at 09:20 PM.
  #2329  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:45 PM
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Come on, man. Is this thread the Trump dumping ground in Elections? Not singling you out but every news story with Trump in the title doesn't have to be reported in the impeachment thread, does it?
Mea culpa.

But I figured that in a 47-page thread, with 2000+ posts many of which were one- or two-liners, and the recent appearance of John Wayne in the red corner, a little humour wouldn't be out of place.
  #2330  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:31 PM
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Agreed, but when did Nostradamus get into hextraines? Or are those from the I Ching?
I foresee that in the future, I still won't know what a hextraine is. It was free verse that coincidentally appeared to have meter of some sort. Or if you prefer, a tumor-ridden haiku

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 10-09-2019 at 10:33 PM. Reason: ...My God! I don't know why!
  #2331  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:48 PM
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The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?

I’m not really interested in arguing that with you, as others are handling it fine. I’m just stunned by “the best president in your lifetime” bit. Assuming you don’t like Democrats at all, you really like him better than the other Republicans who have been president in recent decades? Someone who uses vulgar insults, lies constantly, doesn’t read briefings, says he will hire “the best people” but then keeps firing everyone and talking shit about how stupid they are on the way out?

Last edited by SlackerInc; 10-09-2019 at 10:48 PM.
  #2332  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:07 PM
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Goodness, that is truly the dumbest thing to come out of that moron’s pie-hole — and that’s saying something.

Where were the Kurds at the Battle of Bunker Hill? Well? Well?

Goodness gracious.
People are telling me the Kurds stood idly by during the Bowling Green Massacre as well.
  #2333  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:20 PM
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I was and am interested in pointing out to you that you didn't understand what the word "evidence" meant, and to point out that despite your assertion that no evidence was posted, evidence actually was posted.
I know what evidence is. And I say this honestly and forthrightly: you have convinced me. I was wrong. Evidence was indeed posted. Of something. IMO though, none of it was evidence of blackmail. If only someone had wanted to discuss that evidence in detail. Maybe they could have convinced me. No one has in my other thread as of yet, but it's been a good discussion so far.
  #2334  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:22 PM
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I’m not really interested in arguing that with you, as others are handling it fine. I’m just stunned by “the best president in your lifetime” bit...
You're being ageist. You're clearly talking down to someone because they're less than two and a half years old.
  #2335  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:28 PM
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LOL, my bad.
  #2336  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:37 PM
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There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail.
Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm.

I recommend you familiarize yourself with the rules of the board and each forum you post in. This post was made and unfortunately I missed the thread report at the time or else I would have offered you the same advice.
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Nuke Mecca! Fuck the Sauds.
I recommend toning down your rhetoric in order to participate civilly in these forums.

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  #2337  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:09 AM
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Wait, we can advocate killing millions of people in Elections now and not get so much as warned for it? Sweet. Or is this one of those special privileges that only special people who belong to the same party as Bone get?
  #2338  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:10 AM
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Come on, man. Is this thread the Trump dumping ground in Elections? Not singling you out but every news story with Trump in the title doesn't have to be reported in the impeachment thread, does it?
You're right. A discussion of Trump's recent policy on the Kurds isn't really relevant to the topic of this thread and would be more appropriate in a different more general Trump thread.
  #2339  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:46 AM
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Wait, we can advocate killing millions of people in Elections now and not get so much as warned for it? Sweet. Or is this one of those special privileges that only special people who belong to the same party as Bone get?
Meh, gotta nuke something. [/Nelson muntz]
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  #2340  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:58 AM
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I’m not really interested in arguing that with you, as others are handling it fine. I’m just stunned by “the best president in your lifetime” bit. Assuming you don’t like Democrats at all, you really like him better than the other Republicans who have been president in recent decades? Someone who uses vulgar insults, lies constantly, doesn’t read briefings, says he will hire “the best people” but then keeps firing everyone and talking shit about how stupid they are on the way out?
They can impeach him on the technicality that he's under age--no one seemed to realize that the country elected a six-year old.

Last edited by guizot; 10-10-2019 at 01:58 AM.
  #2341  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:24 AM
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It says so in the Constitution.
Trump is exactly the kind of scam artist they were thinking about when they wrote the impeachment clause. In the future, the illustrated version will have his picture next to it.

Even back then they knew that a lot of Americans are like your elderly parents--someone has to be able to come in and disconnect the phone before "Microsoft" gets their credit card number, or the before the Nigerian prince gets his hands on their bank account.

Yeah -- impeachment was made for Trump.
  #2342  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:02 AM
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There's no grounds to impeach Trump, and those people need to do their jobs or be hanged or go to jail.
As other people have already noted, he broke the law and he is obstructing justice. Pointing out these facts is not treasonous, indeed, wannabe John Wayne, they are examples of true patriotism.

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The reason that's grounds for impeachment is-?
He broke the law and is obstructing justice.

I am happy to repeat that a third time if you require it.

Also, he is president, not king or dictator for life. Please review the differences, thank you.
  #2343  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:34 AM
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You're right. A discussion of Trump's recent policy on the Kurds isn't really relevant to the topic of this thread and would be more appropriate in a different more general Trump thread.
I'm not so sure. It very well may end up relevant to this thread.
  #2344  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:39 AM
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People are telling me the Kurds stood idly by during the Bowling Green Massacre as well.
And don't forget, they did nothing to aid the poor citizens of Alabama after the devastating breeze.
  #2345  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:40 AM
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House Rule XI, clause 2

If the Democrats are not allowing Republican committee members equal questioning time or the ability to call their own witnesses, that would appear to violate Rule XI, clause 2(j). Yes, technically the House can change its own rules for this inquiry in particular. It would lose the semblance of bipartisanship, but it is still constitutional as far as I can tell. But the relevant rules haven't changed with the incoming 116th Congress, so if the Republican minority is being denied equal questioning time and the ability to call their own witnesses, not only are Democrats appearing partisan, they are also violating their own rules.
First, Max, and I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I'm not being paid by the hour to respond to your posts. There's certainly value behind being complete--but at a certain point, overwhelming other posters with 16 paragraphs in a post gets to be more than I can handle as a volunteer. If you're willing to try for a little more brevity in your posts, it'd be appreciated.

I'll respond to one point you're raising repeatedly: whether the house is violating its own rules. Again, and with feeling: this is none of the president's business. The executive branch has zero say in how the House follows its rules. Their constitutional rights in this arena are exactly the same as mine. Any point the president is raising about impeachment that hinges on whether the house follows its own rules is constitutionally irrelevant.
  #2346  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:59 AM
RTFirefly is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm thinking this latest atrocity - triggered by a tweet from the very stable genius - should most definitely be rolled into the impeachment inquiry...
I agree. In fact, I called up my Representative yesterday to tell him that.

While it breaks no law for the President to decide on his own to throw an ally under the bus and let another nation slaughter its people, it's obviously a tremendous abuse of Executive power.

And the Republicans are treating this like another mass shooting: agreeing that it's a Bad Thing that this is happening, and offering up thoughts and prayers, but making no effort to do anything about the problem.

It's time for Trump to be impeached and removed as a preventive measure, because who knows what destructive thing he will do next.
  #2347  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:31 AM
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This morning on NPR I heard a former White House Counsel saying that the President has certain rights (confronting witnesses, for example) during the inquiry. The host repeated the common grand jury analogy, noting and that accused have no rights to confront witnesses during such hearings. The guest said that comparing the inquiry to a grand jury/indictment was not accurate but I missed or didn't understand why. The guest further said that in order to give the inquiry legitimacy the House should agree to some of the WH demands. One one hand I've heard//read that the letter from Cipollone was utterly lacking from a legal standpoint and now this guest was implying that he has a point(s). What's the straight dope? Is there such a thing or is all dependent on they eyes of the beholder?
  #2348  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:46 AM
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As I've heard it explained: the House sets all the rules for an impeachment (source: the Constitution). An impeachment inquiry is not a trial; there is no right of the accused, because there *is* no accused. It's an inquiry.

To Marion Morrison: think of it this way, if it helps:

Trump used taxpayer money to advance his election. That's embezzlement.
Trump used the power of the office of the President to extort a foreign power to help his campaign. That's abuse of power.
Trump perverted US foreign policy for his own ends. That's a violation of his oath.
Trump solicited election help from a foreign power. That's a violation of federal campaign laws.
Trump tried to cover up all the above by burying the phone records, and is stonewalling legitimate congressional inquiry. That's obstruction of justice.

So, take your pick. What the hell, let's go with all the above.
  #2349  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
As I've heard it explained: the House sets all the rules for an impeachment (source: the Constitution). An impeachment inquiry is not a trial; there is no right of the accused, because there *is* no accused. It's an inquiry.

To Marion Morrison: think of it this way, if it helps:

Trump used taxpayer money to advance his election. That's embezzlement.
Trump used the power of the office of the President to extort a foreign power to help his campaign. That's abuse of power.
Trump perverted US foreign policy for his own ends. That's a violation of his oath.
Trump solicited election help from a foreign power. That's a violation of federal campaign laws.
Trump tried to cover up all the above by burying the phone records, and is stonewalling legitimate congressional inquiry. That's obstruction of justice.

So, take your pick. What the hell, let's go with all the above.
A useful summary but alas, The Duke is now with the banned and thus will be unable to further opine upon it.
  #2350  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:01 AM
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AIUI, just purposely holding up the money is an illegal act. The "power of the purse" belongs to Congress - if they assign money to something that's not for the President to second guess. Along those lines, releasing those funds is directly part of his job and he's asking for a favour before doing so. That's asking for a bribe.
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