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Old 12-29-2018, 06:45 PM
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Atlantis meme

When did Atlantis start to mean "undersea civilization", not "totally destroyed, extinct civilization"?
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:23 PM
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Stories of the island sinking were already in Plato's dialogues, so sometime before then....
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:32 PM
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Stories of the island sinking were already in Plato's dialogues, so sometime before then....
Plato didn't talk about a civilization of merfolk did he?
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:00 PM
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Stories of the island sinking were already in Plato's dialogues, so sometime before then....
Plato's use of Antlantis was clearly allegorical and in no way indicated an earlier myth or oral tradition.
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:30 PM
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Stories of the island sinking were already in Plato's dialogues, so sometime before then....
No, Plato, that well known liar, invented Atlantis. And in fact, it wasn't supposed to be taken as fact, it was a parable.

Atlantis was Athens, and it was supposed to tell them not to be so arrogant.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:29 PM
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No, Plato, that well known liar, invented Atlantis. And in fact, it wasn't supposed to be taken as fact, it was a parable.

Atlantis was Athens, and it was supposed to tell them not to be so arrogant.
I was under the impression that Plato based the tale of Atlantis on the Thera Eruption and the subsequent collapse of the Minoan civilization on Crete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:58 PM
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I was under the impression that Plato based the tale of Atlantis on the Thera Eruption and the subsequent collapse of the Minoan civilization on Crete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

Maybe, but that was 1200 years prior, as far as we know the greeks had no records going back that far (and neither did the Egyptians, really, except lists of Kings). But even if he had the glimmer from Thera it was possible, the whole idea of the tale is that Atlantis was Athens and Athenians better get their shit together or they will be destroyed... which oddly enough- they were, but not in any way Plato thought.

Plato was telling a moral tale about arrogance and avarice, having watched Socrates being forced to drink Hemlock. The Old Athens was great, and beat Atlantis, but Athens (as did Atlantis) was falling into a decline :

"For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them."
However, the Atlanteans became corrupt as:

"...when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power."


It's a metaphor. Athens was great when it beat Darius at Marathon, but it has slid into decline. Plato couldnt speak openly, as he didnt want to have to drink hemlock.

Last edited by DrDeth; 01-04-2019 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:41 PM
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Atlantis started being a "hidden civilization still existing" at the beginning of the 20th century, although in most it was seen as being in the middle of the Sahara, or in South America, on some lost island, or elsewhere.


As far as I know, the first "sunken empire of Atlantis still alive" was David M. Parry's 1906 The Scarlet Empire, in which Atlantis is under a dome at the bottom of the ocean. I have to admit that I've never read it.

Here's an essay I wrote about Atlantis, with special emphasis on the George Pal movie:


https://srichardwilkcom.wordpress.co...ost-continent/
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:43 PM
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Atlantis started being a "hidden civilization still existing" at the beginning of the 20th century, although in most it was seen as being in the middle of the Sahara, or in South America, on some lost island, or elsewhere.


As far as I know, the first "sunken empire of Atlantis still alive" was David M. Parry's 1906 The Scarlet Empire, in which Atlantis is under a dome at the bottom of the ocean. I have to admit that I've never read it.

Here's an essay I wrote about Atlantis, with special emphasis on the George Pal movie:


https://srichardwilkcom.wordpress.co...ost-continent/
Thank you, that essay is a wonder.
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Old 12-30-2018, 12:39 AM
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Thank you, that essay is a wonder.
Thanks
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:05 PM
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Atlantis started being a "hidden civilization still existing" at the beginning of the 20th century, although in most it was seen as being in the middle of the Sahara, or in South America, on some lost island, or elsewhere.


As far as I know, the first "sunken empire of Atlantis still alive" was David M. Parry's 1906 The Scarlet Empire, in which Atlantis is under a dome at the bottom of the ocean. I have to admit that I've never read it.

Here's an essay I wrote about Atlantis, with special emphasis on the George Pal movie:


https://srichardwilkcom.wordpress.co...ost-continent/
Ignatius Donnelly's book precended it by 24 years, though he didn't suppose it was "still alive," he was the first to mount the hypothesis that Atlantis was a real place and a lost super-advanced civilization. Atlantis really begins with Donnelly, not Plato (at least as the OP puts it). Edit: I've since followed your link and see you write extensively about this book.

Donnelly was also the first to suggest Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's plays. He was a prolific crackpot and theorist.

Last edited by WernhamHogg; 12-30-2018 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:23 PM
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Ignatius Donnelly's book precended it by 24 years, though he didn't suppose it was "still alive," he was the first to mount the hypothesis that Atlantis was a real place and a lost super-advanced civilization. Atlantis really begins with Donnelly, not Plato (at least as the OP puts it). Edit: I've since followed your link and see you write extensively about this book.

Donnelly was also the first to suggest Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's plays. He was a prolific crackpot and theorist.
But Donnelly never said that Atlantis was an inhabited underwater city, which is the reason I brought that up (to answer the OP's question). As you see from my essay, there's a LOT about Donnelly's book in it, including its central role in raising the modern interpretation of Atlantis (and the way that this is absent from, for instance, Jules Verne's work).
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Old 12-30-2018, 05:24 PM
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Donnelly was also the first to suggest Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's plays. He was a prolific crackpot and theorist.
Actually, Shakespeare's authorship had been questioned by quite a few writers, most notably Delia Bacon, for several decades before Donnelly wrote on the subject. Not that this makes him any less of a crackpot.
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Old 12-30-2018, 05:57 PM
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It's interesting that Atlantis being advanced meant that they were advanced in technology doesn't seem to arise until modern times.

I guess in the old days "advanced" meant things like being learned, having a well developed religion, etc.

By the 1800s, the effect of new technology on the rapid progress of civilization became apparent.
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Old 12-30-2018, 03:32 PM
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Wait, there's a classic formative work of science fiction that CalMeacham hasn't read? Next you'll be telling me that Santa isn't real!
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:10 PM
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I guess I'll add that my understanding of the Atlantis myth is pseudohistorical advanced civilization that has been destroyed at the bottom of the ocean; I have seen fantasy/sci-fi treatments where Atlantis is still there under a dome or whatever but it feels different to me where people actually believe the advance/destroyed civilization but know the "Atlantis still there under a dome" is pure make believe. Don't mean to split hairs, I just haven't encountered anyone who believes Atlantis is there but have known people who sort of believed in Atlantis, the same kinds of people who believe aliens helped build the pyramids and "know" ghosts are real and so forth.
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Old 01-02-2019, 10:49 AM
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I pulled out my copy of George Pal's Atlantis, the Lost Continent over the weekend and watched it again. It's the same wonderful mixture of pretty good and really awful stuff I remember, and I can't help wishing it was a lotbetter. as it is, I've never been satisfied with any movie or novel about Atlantis. One of these days somebody ought to give it another shot.


One of the problems is that none of the people doing this have a sense of scale. They can't cope with an entire continent. Heck, most of them would have trouble coping with a lost island. Most of what is done could be satisfied by simply having a lost City. And they often don't have a coherent idea of what Atlantis really is, and what its history was, and why or how it "sank". I think too much Atlantis fiction coasts along on the romance of a lost, probably high-tech civilization without asking the question about why someone with high tech either couldn't sustain themselves, or move somewhere else. I may have to write this one myself.
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:07 PM
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I think too much Atlantis fiction coasts along on the romance of a lost, probably high-tech civilization without asking the question about why someone with high tech either couldn't sustain themselves, or move somewhere else. I may have to write this one myself.
Not Atlantis, but cf. "At the Mountains of Madness"
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:11 PM
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Not Atlantis, but cf. "At the Mountains of Madness"
thanks. read it many times, including two different annotated versions.

I've read lost of "Lost World" stories But I expect something different from an Atlantis yarn.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:57 PM
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Not Atlantis, but cf. "At the Mountains of Madness"
Not to get too far off track, but the collapse of the Old Ones' civilization was explained by the revolt of the shoggoths, no? And the the culture of the Old Ones themselves had already become degenerate by this point, at least according to the interpretation of Lovecraft's protagonist.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:12 AM
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Not to get too far off track, but the collapse of the Old Ones' civilization was explained by the revolt of the shoggoths, no? And the the culture of the Old Ones themselves had already become degenerate by this point, at least according to the interpretation of Lovecraft's protagonist.
Basically, yes. The Decline of the West stuff is quite deliberate on the part of Lovecraft, and the Old Ones were into the process of decadence and degeneration long before the second, successful, shoggoth revolt. By that time they had lost most of their superior ancient art and technology, and it was climate change that ultimately led to the abandonment of their cities and colonies and forced them underground and underwater. Indeed, at that point mere shoggoths were able to rise up and do for them, whereas the original Old Ones were able to hold their own against the spawn of Cthulhu. But note that the thing glimpsed in the Cold Waste, the brief sight of which drove Danforth insane, wasn't no shoggoth

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Old 01-03-2019, 02:27 PM
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If you want to tell arrogant people not to be so arrogant, maybe a parable isn't quite direct enough.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:37 PM
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If you want to tell arrogant people not to be so arrogant, maybe a parable isn't quite direct enough.
Hemlock is sooo bitter, not tasty at all.
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:43 PM
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In modern times hippie folk singer Donovan might have contributed to the myth.

Hail Atlantis!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAMYGzwUTK4

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:43 PM
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https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.p...r_Stories.html

Just for fun.
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:17 PM
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One of the best quotes I've ever read:
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“It was concentrated happiness distilled out of the little supply distributed to billions of ordinary folk"
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