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Old 12-30-2018, 11:06 PM
installLSC installLSC is offline
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Latin in Catholic services--making a comeback?

My home Catholic church has been doing the "Lamb of God" prayer in Latin often in the last few months. Other Catholic churches I've been to recently have done either the "Holy Holy" or "Gloria" prayers in Latin--while the rest of the service is in English. Is there some push in the Catholic church, whether up high or at the parish level, to put more Latin in the modern mass? Are there any limits to how much of the service must be in the vernacular?

Last edited by installLSC; 12-30-2018 at 11:06 PM. Reason: puncuation
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:26 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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My wife has been leading the music at our parish for the past several years, and we have tried to incorporate more Latin. There has been a lot of pushback from the "old guard", and our Priest has been...less than fully supportive.

My wife recently resigned from that position due to family obligations, and we will be attending a Latin mass parish about an hour away for at least the next few months.

I think that as the baby boomer generation loses influence, we will see Latin make a resurgence. At least that's my hope.

It seems that younger people are tired of the Protestantization of the mass and want a more fully Catholic experience.
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:33 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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If there is, I haven't noticed it. My wife is the main person who goes to church in this family, but I go once every month or so with her, and we rotate through five or six parishes. I have not noticed any latinization at any of them. The parish I grew up in (in the 80s and 90s), would sometimes do the "Agnus Dei" Latin version of the Lamb of God. Personally, I don't like the idea of Latin mass, but, like I said, I'm not much of a Catholic anymore, so my opinion doesn't matter. (Back when I was a strong Catholic, understanding the mass fully was really important to me. I grew up speaking Polish in the house, but I wasn't very well versed in religious and other more "adult-conversation" level words, so I once went to Christmas mass twice, because I felt I didn't have the full experience with the Polish mass my family attended. I don't get why anybody wants a Latin mass again.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 12-30-2018 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:40 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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To answer your question...

This is by no means scientific, but my impression has been that most of the hierarchy is unsupportive or even somewhat hostile towards Latin.

My hope is that this will change as the "V2" generation ages out of power.

https://liturgyguy.com/2018/02/04/ti...-of-vatican-2/
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:00 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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To answer your question...

This is by no means scientific, but my impression has been that most of the hierarchy is unsupportive or even somewhat hostile towards Latin.
Latin is a dead language.
It died across the sea.
It killed the ancient Romans,
And now it's killing me.


MS found in a Boy's Life magazine at a Goodwill store c. 1965

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Old 12-31-2018, 04:25 PM
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On a slightly related note, my grandmother died somewhat recently and her funeral was the first time I attended Mass in quite some time. It probably was too for some other family members who are of a more scholastic bent. Anyway, we were somewhat surprised at how many of the English words had been changed to something more akin to their direct Latin translation than what they had been before, which was a translation that sounded better in English. Most prominently the priest saying "Dominus vobiscum" was replied with "Et cum spiritu tuo", which was "The Lord be with you"-"And also with you"; but now the response is the more literal "And with your spirit".
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:40 PM
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I'm pretty sure I remember the phrase "and with your spirit" being used in the mass when I was a kid in the 1960s.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:19 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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I am ever impressed with how hard American Catholics took and still take the whole Latin vs. Vernacular thing. I suppose it's one of those things that happens when you are conscious of not only not being the majority, but also of cultural pressures against you and fissures within the community, and if you grow up inmersed in a culture where Catholicism is taken for granted it's like, why make things harder?


As to my experience of traditional-language usages in the US English vernacular Mass, I recall as far back as my first exposures to it in 1979/80 sometimes when the Kyrie was sung, it was done so in the Greek, but that was it.


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I'm pretty sure I remember the phrase "and with your spirit" being used in the mass when I was a kid in the 1960s.
Y'see, some among those of us whose cradle language was not English did not have to deal with that particular bit of back-and-forthing. The Francis-era changes make Vernacular English Mass sound more like the Spanish version I grew with, where it was ALWAYS "y con tu espíritu".

OTOH I wonder who decided that we needed to port "consubstantial" raw and straight into the recitation of the Creed in English. I'm pretty sure this is a word no anglophone layperson had used in conversation in ages.

Vernacular Mass always sounded to me just fine; even more so in my childhood's Spanish, not to a small degree because the common latinate roots allowed some of the phrases to retain a resemblance of the cadences, and modern Spanish retains the thou/thee/thy second-person-intimate form of address (which is how the classic liturgy addresses God) and can fit itself better to some of the turns of phrase.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 12-31-2018 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:30 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Y'see, some among those of us whose cradle language was not English did not have to deal with that particular bit of back-and-forthing. The Francis-era changes make Vernacular English Mass sound more like the Spanish version I grew with, where it was ALWAYS "y con tu espíritu".
Same here. Pretty much all the changes that happened recently made the English version closer to the Polish mass I grew up with. In Polish, it was "i z duchem twoim," also meaning "and with your spirit." Why English ended up with "and also with you" I don't know. Somebody got just a little too casual, I guess! Another one I remember is the Penitential Rite, in the beginning of the mass, the one that starts with "I confess to Almighty God." The Polish version had this lovely poetic repetitive phrase, where everyone bows their head and strikes their chest with their hand, moja wina, moja wina, moja bardzo wielka wina. The previous English version of this completely skipped it, but now it follows what's in the Polish mass with the lines "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. "

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Old 12-31-2018, 06:51 PM
WernhamHogg WernhamHogg is offline
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
I am ever impressed with how hard American Catholics took and still take the whole Latin vs. Vernacular thing. I suppose it's one of those things that happens when you are conscious of not only not being the majority, but also of cultural pressures against you and fissures within the community, and if you grow up inmersed in a culture where Catholicism is taken for granted it's like, why make things harder?


As to my experience of traditional-language usages in the US English vernacular Mass, I recall as far back as my first exposures to it in 1979/80 sometimes when the Kyrie was sung, it was done so in the Greek, but that was it.




Y'see, some among those of us whose cradle language was not English did not have to deal with that particular bit of back-and-forthing. The Francis-era changes make Vernacular English Mass sound more like the Spanish version I grew with, where it was ALWAYS "y con tu espíritu".

OTOH I wonder who decided that we needed to port "consubstantial" raw and straight into the recitation of the Creed in English. I'm pretty sure this is a word no anglophone layperson had used in conversation in ages.

Vernacular Mass always sounded to me just fine; even more so in my childhood's Spanish, not to a small degree because the common latinate roots allowed some of the phrases to retain a resemblance of the cadences, and modern Spanish retains the thou/thee/thy second-person-intimate form of address (which is how the classic liturgy addresses God) and can fit itself better to some of the turns of phrase.
Nice of you to bring in this enlightened viewpoint, from a place with such a storied history of religious tolerance.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:32 PM
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Latin is a dead language.
It died across the sea.
It killed the ancient Romans,
And now it's killing me.


MS found in a Boy's Life magazine at a Goodwill store c. 1965
rident stolidi verba Latina -- Ovid


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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
modern Spanish retains the thou/thee/thy second-person-intimate form of address (which is how the classic liturgy addresses God)
Latin does not have any intimate form of address. Any intimate/distant aspect would be purely a function of the Spanish.

Last edited by DPRK; 12-31-2018 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 05:23 PM
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Most of the push towards Latin, such as it is, is from the old-timers who are starting to die out. And every generation from here on is a "V2 generation", at least until such time as there's a new Ecumenical Council.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:07 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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Most of the push towards Latin, such as it is, is from the old-timers who are starting to die out.
My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite.

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And every generation from here on is a "V2 generation", at least until such time as there's a new Ecumenical Council.
I was referring to the generation that influenced the implementation of V2.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:15 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite.
Must be regional or perhaps you just run in very conservative Catholic circles. I know not of a single person my generation (X) or younger who want a Latin mass. I think a Latin mass would just further alienate people like me and other on-thee-cusp Catholics from ever attending mass again.

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Old 12-31-2018, 09:12 PM
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I think a Latin mass would just further alienate people like me and other on-thee-cusp Catholics from ever attending mass again.
They're welcome down the street with me. Liturgy's the same, but more tolerance of women and the gays so it's a better environment for children. However Swedish, Norwegian, and German food sucks, so go back for the St Joseph's Table.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:19 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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They're welcome down the street with me. Liturgy's the same, but more tolerance of women and the gays so it's a better environment for children. However Swedish, Norwegian, and German food sucks, so go back for the St Joseph's Table.
There's Catholic parishes that tolerate women and gays out there. I got married in the Church. I won't name the parish, but I told the priest that I wasn't exactly a believer and did the whole "culturally Catholic" thing and said something about respecting the religion and not taking Communion. He said something to the effect of Jesus can handle it, and said, go ahead, take Communion. I've attended mass over a hundred times over the last 20 years, but have never taken Communion except for that time.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:45 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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They're welcome down the street with me. Liturgy's the same, but more tolerance of women and the gays so it's a better environment for children. However Swedish, Norwegian, and German food sucks, so go back for the St Joseph's Table.


Huh? Have you tried Swedish meatballs? Or sauerbraten? You must have gotten to the lutefisk table first, and it ruined everything for you.

Check out Ćbleskiver. You'll be back.
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:24 PM
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Quoth pulykamell:

The Polish version had this lovely poetic repetitive phrase, where everyone bows their head and strikes their chest with their hand, moja wina, moja wina, moja bardzo wielka wina. The previous English version of this completely skipped it, but now it follows what's in the Polish mass with the lines "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. "
And which in Latin is "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa". Which is how that particular Latinism made its way into English usage.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:19 PM
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Some notes:
The bureaucracy of the Vatican would like all the vernacular translations to agree as closely as possible with the Latin version (which itself is post Vatican II). Some languages (such as Spanish) turned out to be closer to the Latin, some farther away. Thus in English, for example, the Nicene Creed underwent some significant changes a couple years ago. Instead of beginning "We believe" it now is supposed to be "I believe", which is the direct Latin translation of "Credo". All these language changes are decided upon by committees of old geezers in robes.

There is a small group of Catholics devoted to the Mass being said in Latin not the vernacular. There is no issue with this per the Church. But it is always a small group, because, duh, nobody understands what is being said. Some but not all of these folks want the Church to repeal all the Vatican II reforms. They are not all old by any means. But they are all very very conservative.

I spent 25 years doing liturgical singing under the watchful eye of the diocesan director of liturgy and music. I learned a whole lot about how liturgy in the Church changes and who changes it. The short answer is, it's a huge church with many disparate and conflicting strands and many opinions. There is a huge amount of top-down control but even so, the flavor of each parish is going to be created by the pastor, ministers, and congregation's collective cultures.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:14 PM
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There is a small group of Catholics devoted to the Mass being said in Latin not the vernacular. There is no issue with this per the Church. But it is always a small group, because, duh, nobody understands what is being said.
I'm not sure I would describe it as a small group (link 1, link 2). And that's just the U.S.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:22 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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I'm not sure I would describe it as a small group (link 1, link 2). And that's just the U.S.
That is, really, a tiny group. I see four parishes there in Chicago. The Archdiocese has something like 300+ parishes.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:31 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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That is, really, a tiny group. I see four parishes there in Chicago. The Archdiocese has something like 300+ parishes.
ETA: Sorry, I was only counting Chicago proper. So like 11 masses out of 336 parishes in the Archdiocese, or just over 3% that have Latin masses, and one of them is discontinued, and three of them, if I'm reading right, are just once a month.
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:06 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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I'm not sure I would describe it as a small group (link 1, link 2). And that's just the U.S.
Well, the U.S. plus Canada. And given that it appears to run about four to eight parishes per diocese and there are often over a thousand parishes in a diocese and that most of those parishes provide only a single Latin mass per week, (with quite a few offering one only on special occasions while a much tinier number offer it daily), I would say that "small" adequately identifies the group.
I would not claim that the demand is marginal, but it hardly rises to the level of large.

And in terms of "resurgence," when some of its advocates indicate a serious misunderstanding, using such terms as "protestantization," I really see no indication of a resurgence.

There will always be folks who prefer the beauty of the sung version, (I really love Gregorian Chant and Organum), and some who simply want to indicate displeasure with Vatican II, and a miniscule number who actually understand enough Latin to desire to worship in that language, but there is no great surge of people who wish to take the whole church back to 1960. (I have no problem with the mass in Latin as long as it follows the Novus Ordo of 1972 and does not fall back into the errors to which the Tridentine mass tends to encourage some.)
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:30 PM
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there are often over a thousand parishes in a diocese
Not sure how I typed that. The figures usually run in the low hundreds, not thousands.
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:55 PM
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And in terms of "resurgence," when some of its advocates indicate a serious misunderstanding, using such terms as "protestantization," I really see no indication of a resurgence.

(snip)

... (I have no problem with the mass in Latin as long as it follows the Novus Ordo of 1972 and does not fall back into the errors to which the Tridentine mass tends to encourage some.)
Please explain how describing the Novus Ordo as "Protestantization" indicates a misunderstanding.

Also, what errors does the Tridentine mass encourage?
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:07 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Please explain how describing the Novus Ordo as "Protestantization" indicates a misunderstanding.

Also, what errors does the Tridentine mass encourage?
There is nothing of Protestant (or even non-Catholic) Theology in the Novus Ordo, so making that reference indicates a misunderstanding of what it means.

Trent was a sixteenth century reaction to the Reformation. It got a lot of things right (when it corrected abuses) and a number of things wrong (when it declared that the sixteenth century expressions and interpretations of theology were cast in concrete as if the church could proceed and develop in its understanding of God for 1500 years and then come to a screeching halt). Most of the opposition to Vatican II has been the result of people who were ignorant of (the changes in expression) in the first 1500 years of church history believing that the pronouncements from Trent were carved in stone that expressed the church teachings going back to the first century. The desire to hold tightly to the Tridentine mass indicates a belief that Trent was the final way to view God. There is beauty in the Tridentine mass, but it does not communicate the actual message of the church, today.
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:45 PM
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I'm not sure I would describe it as a small group (link 1, link 2). And that's just the U.S.
Checking the St. Louis archdiocese website (and St. Louis Catholics are generally a pretty conservative bunch) I count five parishes out of nearly 200 that offer any Latin service at all.

And as for the Nicene Creed, my local Lutheran church uses both the Apostle's and Nicene creeds. Our version of the Nicene is "We believe." I suspect it's more a quirk of translation than it is any specific theology.

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As it is, I seem to be becoming an Episcopalian. Most of the ritual, little of the misogyny and homophobia.
You could go Lutheran, although you won't get the High Mass ritual still sends shivers down my spine. Choose your synod carefully, though, otherwise you may lose the ritual but still get misogyny and homophobia.

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Old 12-31-2018, 10:52 PM
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Some notes:
The bureaucracy of the Vatican would like all the vernacular translations to agree as closely as possible with the Latin version (which itself is post Vatican II). Some languages (such as Spanish) turned out to be closer to the Latin, some farther away. Thus in English, for example, the Nicene Creed underwent some significant changes a couple years ago. Instead of beginning "We believe" it now is supposed to be "I believe", which is the direct Latin translation of "Credo". All these language changes are decided upon by committees of old geezers in robes.

There is a small group of Catholics devoted to the Mass being said in Latin not the vernacular. There is no issue with this per the Church. But it is always a small group, because, duh, nobody understands what is being said. Some but not all of these folks want the Church to repeal all the Vatican II reforms. They are not all old by any means. But they are all very very conservative.
Uhh, I think the word you're looking for is reactionary.

And when did the English version of the Nicene Creed begin with "WE believe?"
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:24 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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And when did the English version of the Nicene Creed begin with "WE believe?"
This is an interesting question to me, because it came up within the last month here on the Dope (in re: the Apostles' Creed), and it's always been "We believe" for the Nicene as far as I remember (and "I believe" for the Apostles'), since my church-going years in ths 80s onward. But Wikipedia seemed to suggest that a lot of Catholic parishes say "I believe." Not here, as far as I remember.

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Old 12-31-2018, 11:49 PM
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This is an interesting question to me, because it came up within the last month here on the Dope (in re: the Apostles' Creed), and it's always been "We believe" for the Nicene as far as I remember (and "I believe" for the Apostles'), since my church-going years in ths 80s onward. But Wikipedia seemed to suggest that a lot of Catholic parishes say "I believe." Not here, as far as I remember.
It was "We believe from 1973 to 2011 according to the Wiki article. I know that it was "We believe" for as long as I can remember, but I'm also not sure how well I remember that sort of detail from before the age of 10.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:35 AM
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It was "We believe from 1973 to 2011 according to the Wiki article. I know that it was "We believe" for as long as I can remember, but I'm also not sure how well I remember that sort of detail from before the age of 10.
Then that sounds about right. My biggest Catholic-church go-every-week years were from 1980 to about 1993.
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:16 PM
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Uhh, I think the word you're looking for is reactionary.

<snip>
Sorry, that was the word I was looking for all right. However some people who go for the Latin Mass seem to be more into the aesthetics of it than any other reason. They are the same people who wish for more Gregorian chant, incense, soaring churches made of stone, and a lot of kneeling. There is something to that. If it wasn't so connected to rigidity and punitiveness I myself might be on board.

As it is, I seem to be becoming an Episcopalian. Most of the ritual, little of the misogyny and homophobia.
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:42 PM
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...

As it is, I seem to be becoming an Episcopalian. Most of the ritual, little of the misogyny and homophobia.
About twenty percent of my Episcopal congregation came to us from Catholicism. A handful are divorced and remarried, but for most the move was about the treatment of women and gays. You'd be in good company.

Meant to add as a data point that in Rite 2 of the Episcopal tradition, which I believe dates from the Book of Common Prayer issued in 1979, the correct response to "The Lord be with you" is "And also with you." In Rite 1, prior to that, it was "And with thy spirit." At any parish gathering people can get everyone's attention by bellowing "THE LORD BE WITH YOU" whereupon everybody instantly stops talking long enough to say "AND ALSO WITH YOU" except a couple of eight o'clockers who say "AND WITH THY SPIRIT"

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Old 01-02-2019, 09:01 PM
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Sorry, that was the word I was looking for all right. However some people who go for the Latin Mass seem to be more into the aesthetics of it than any other reason. They are the same people who wish for more Gregorian chant, incense, soaring churches made of stone, and a lot of kneeling. There is something to that. If it wasn't so connected to rigidity and punitiveness I myself might be on board.

As it is, I seem to be becoming an Episcopalian. Most of the ritual, little of the misogyny and homophobia.
Ha, I still recall a bit of dialogue from a St. Elsewhere episode one year at Christmas time. Dr. Westphall's daughter and her boyfriend were planning to go to Midnight Mass and decided to go to the Episcopal instead of the Catholic church because you'd get "all of the pageantry and none of the guilt."

I was an altar boy while the Mass was still in Latin and then through high school (it was a seminary even!) during the changes. These days, I guess I'm completely devoid of any religious faith. Still, I don't understand the folks who want the Latin Mass. It just makes no sense. They must be clinging to ritual and pomp over any kind of actual meaningful worship.
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Old 01-02-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by I. Dunno View Post
Still, I don't understand the folks who want the Latin Mass. It just makes no sense.
Indeed. The only sense it makes to me is that people of many languages can join into a common mass. But that really only makes sense if Latin was a true lingua franca today. Very few people understand it. I was going to make a comment about the homily, but I actually have no idea. Were pre-Vatican II homilies at least in the native language of the congregation? I would assume and hope so.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:22 PM
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Also, the Kyrie is very often sung in Greek. It is the only part of the Mass of which this is true. If you listen to Mass settings from the Baroque or Classical eras, they are all in Latin except the Kyrie. Even when everything else is in the vernacular, the Kyrie may be spoken or sung in Greek.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Must be regional or perhaps you just run in very conservative Catholic circles. I know not of a single person my generation (X) or younger who want a Latin mass. I think a Latin mass would just further alienate people like me and other on-thee-cusp Catholics from ever attending mass again.
This. And as jrd mentioned in the next post, everyone I talk with would like the word consubstantial and the "under my roof" changes to go back to something easier to say and understand.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:58 PM
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I'm pretty sure I remember the phrase "and with your spirit" being used in the mass when I was a kid in the 1960s.
Altar Boy 1: What's the Pope's phone number?

Altar Boy 2: Et cum spiritu tuo.

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And which in Latin is "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa". Which is how that particular Latinism made its way into English usage.
And several times into my posts. Gotta use it or you'll lose it.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:32 PM
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And which in Latin is "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa". Which is how that particular Latinism made its way into English usage.
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
And several times into my posts. Gotta use it or you'll lose it.
Reading columns by Ann Landers and/or Dear Abby was also a common way of getting the phrase into your lexicon.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:01 PM
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This. And as jrd mentioned in the next post, everyone I talk with would like the word consubstantial and the "under my roof" changes to go back to something easier to say and understand.
But Consubstantiation is heresy! I miss things being heretical. It made going to a Lutheran church feel daring.

Last edited by dropzone; 12-31-2018 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:39 PM
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But Consubstantiation is heresy! I miss things being heretical. It made going to a Lutheran church feel daring.
Word. I miss blasphemy being a real thing, too.

Oh, wait, it's the other thing. I don't miss blasphemy being a real thing.
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:24 PM
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But Consubstantiation is heresy! I miss things being heretical. It made going to a Lutheran church feel daring.
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Word. I miss blasphemy being a real thing, too.

Oh, wait, it's the other thing. I don't miss blasphemy being a real thing.
Not quite.

Consubstantiation was word assigned (not by Luther) to the Platonic Luther's description of the Eucharist in opposition to the Aristotelian Transubstantiation. The words contrast the philosophical identification of the bread and wine that has been consecrated with Transubstantiation indicating that the the (Aristotelian) substances of bread and wine become (note the trans-) the Body and Blood while Consubstatiation holds that the they remain bread and wine in which the Body and Blood are joined with (con-) bread and wine.

In the newer formulation of the Creed, Consubstantial has no relation to the Eucharist, but indicates that the Father and Son are of one divine substance.

It was certainly jarring to hear, but it is not heresy.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:14 PM
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This. And as jrd mentioned in the next post, everyone I talk with would like the word consubstantial and the "under my roof" changes to go back to something easier to say and understand.
Yeah, that's one change that really puzzled me. The other ones I noticed, I understand. But changing "one in being with" to "consubstantial with" I don't understand. It's just such a huge swing in diction that it sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:30 PM
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I learned it as "I believe". Chicago, 1960s.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:57 PM
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Heck, my parish offers a mass in Swahili a couple of times a month (we have a number of African immigrants in the parish, including our pastor). It doesn't mean that the Church is going to move to Swahili as its official language.
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:32 PM
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Nothing more to contribute than an anecdote.

Back when I was forced to go to church, I recall attending a few masses where at least some part of the proceedings were spoken in Latin - I think these were special occasions though, like Christmas or Easter Mass. I remember being even more annoyed than I normally was at attending since the priest, of course, used church pronunciation, or faux Italian. I had been taking Latin since freshman year of high school and man did this annoy me.

My mom is still Catholic, despite her dabbling with just about every other Religion on the planet, and she says none of the Masses she has attended featured Latin, she doesn't go very often though, but she does go to both Spanish and English language mass.

Last edited by Kinthalis; 01-02-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:02 PM
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[Moderating]
This thread appears to have drifted from "Is the Church shifting back to Latin?" to "Should the Church be shifting back to Latin?". And while that's a perfectly fine topic for discussion, it's not a GQ topic.

Moving to Great Debates.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:07 PM
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[Not moderating]
EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
I'm not EscAlaMike, but I will venture to say that it's because they've always done it. In my experience these, the beloved Little Old Italian and Polish Ladies of my youth, are not people with deep theological educations. When they were young the Sisters told them to do that, saying it's Jesus' house, so they do it today.
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
[Not moderating]
EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
Regarding the genuflecting, I've noticed the same thing and don't have an answer except to agree that it's probably just habit mixed with ignorance.

I can't really answer either for Latin mass attendees, but would venture to guess that there is less theological ignorance among that crowd for the simple reason that most people attend TLM intentionally, even driving over an hour every Sunday for it. Since Latin mass parishes are so rare, one has to seek them out to find one for the most part, and is not generally just the closest neighborhood parish.
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