Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:57 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,955
Is there any correlation between white liberals and feeling rejected from society

I know not all liberals are white, but around 3/4 of them are. Plus non-whites are already rejected from society if we are being honest so I can understand why non-whites lean leftist in politics.

The % of LGBT who identify as liberal is higher than among the general population. Again, expected.

What about white heterosexual men who are liberals? The % of the base of the conservative party, like the tea party, have a huge % who are heterosexual white men. And that is expected, there are certain privileges of being a hetero white men that conservatives want to guard and keep only to themselves.

According to this study, the tea party is 89% white and 59% male. That works out to 52% of the tea party as white men, when in the US in general I think only 30% of the public are white men. Among solid liberals, the gender roles are reversed. 59% female to 41% male. But at 73% white, that still means 30% of solid liberals are white men, which is about equal to the ratio among the general public (America as a whole is about 60% white, and about 50% male).

I expected white men to be under-represented among solid liberals, but they aren't. Their % pretty much matches the public. However both the tea party and solid liberals are more white than the US public in general, despite the gender ratios being 3:2 but reversed for both sides.

So from a psychological perspective, what motivates hetero white men who are liberals? Are they people who feel rejected from society for some other reason and identify with out-groups? Are they people who value fairness and justice more than the privileges of identity politics?

For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root. People who feel rejected from society want change and equality. People who benefit from inequality want to keep the unequal system. A hetero white male from an above average socioeconomic level benefits from the system as is.

But among people who benefit from the inequality (hetero white men, especially those from higher socioeconomic statuses, aka a lot of the liberals on this board), what motivates their liberalism? Has it been studied?

I guess, again, to me I assume it is one of two things.

1. Feeling rejected from mainstream society in some other way than gender, race or sexuality.

2. A moral or value system that rejects social hierarchies and believes in equality (the same way FDR rejected the greed and social darwinism of his economic class and believed in leftist economics).

If the first, what factors could those be? Poverty? Mental illness? Belief in a counterculture?

If point two, what distinguishes someone from a background of privilege who becomes a believer in social hierarchies vs someone who believes in egalitarianism?
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 01-09-2019 at 07:00 PM.
  #2  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:03 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,596
I'm a white heterosexual man and I'm liberal because while I'm selfish, I'm not stupid, and a rising tide raises all boats - including mine.

Plus I'm not a racist bigoted asshole. That too.
  #3  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:08 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 34,499
I question the OP's premise that "rejection from society" is a motive for liberalism. How about a desire for justice, fairness, and equality, even when that might be individually disadvantageous?
  #4  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:35 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,122
I hardly feel like I'm rejected from society. What an odd idea to have about liberals.
__________________
Tentatively and lightly dipping my toes back in the water.
  #5  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:37 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
I hardly feel like I'm rejected from society. What an odd idea to have about liberals.
Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 01-09-2019 at 07:38 PM.
  #6  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:46 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
What's the fallacy for assuming that everybody who acts the same has the same motivations?
  #7  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:40 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
On the subject, LGBTs are more democratic than average (about 75%) but 2x as liberal as the general public.

Blacks on the other hand are much more democratic than average (about 90%) but roughly just as liberal (25% or so) as the public at large.

So I don't know how the divisions work between in-groups and out-groups and how that affects political partisanship or ideological partisanship.

Blacks are more likely to be democrats, but less likely to be liberals than LGBT.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 01-09-2019 at 09:40 PM.
  #8  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:27 PM
JB99 JB99 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 802
Straight white cis male here:

I don’t feel “rejected” or excluded at all. I’m well aware that I’m in the most favored, protected, and privileged group on Earth. Being a military retiree is just the cherry on top of my big white male cake.

I’m a liberal because the Republicans are fucking stupid. Their policies are idiotic, their premises are lies, their outcomes are immoral, and their motivations are a combination of spite, hatred, and religious fanaticism. And the last two years have proven that in top of their stupidity, dishonesty, anti-intellectualism, and incoherent rage, they are just plain incompetent.

The only way in which I feel marginalized or frustrated is the frequent reminders that I am surrounded by fuckwits who insist on stupid policies for stupid reasons.
  #9  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:07 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
There's a difference between feeling rejected by society and demanding that society serve the interests of every member of that society and not just white males.
__________________
Tentatively and lightly dipping my toes back in the water.
  #10  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:42 PM
Red Wiggler Red Wiggler is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,565
A just and fair society is the best kind to live in.
  #11  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:00 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pangolandia
Posts: 3,233
Liberals are distinguished by empathy for people who are victimized by the powerful group/s in our culture, even if those victims are not like them. At least, that is what I think of as the distinguishing trait. Some people who are oppressed are able to see that they have common cause with others who are oppressed, who are different from them. They would be liberals too.
  #12  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:23 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
Liberals are distinguished by empathy for people who are victimized by the powerful group/s in our culture, even if those victims are not like them. At least, that is what I think of as the distinguishing trait. Some people who are oppressed are able to see that they have common cause with others who are oppressed, who are different from them. They would be liberals too.
What he said.

Also sometimes it's just cool to be a hippie.
I'm betting the largest portion of those white male liberals are also college aged or at least under 30.
  #13  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:11 PM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,539
I'm a white male liberal- educated and employed in a good job. Largely I identify as liberal because I believe that's what Christ wants us to be. To sacrifice our own self-interest for the sake of others.
  #14  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:19 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pangolandia
Posts: 3,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by senoy View Post
I'm a white male liberal- educated and employed in a good job. Largely I identify as liberal because I believe that's what Christ wants us to be. To sacrifice our own self-interest for the sake of others.
Yeah, that.
  #15  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:12 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,622
I became more liberal over time when I had some life experience that challenged my sense of omnipotence and immortality. I realized even if we do our best, the majority of us will at some point be humbled by circumstances and need help. The best mechanism for that is history's best invention (insurance), which works best with large risk pools. So we need programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment. We could do even better by adding medical insurance and free college. Basically I'm all about not having a command economy, but having Nordic-style socialism.

I'm also anti-racism and anti-sexism. For the latter, equal rights amendment would be a good start. As for racism, I'm probably not the first person to say I don't have a solution. I don't think you can really compel people's hearts or minds, but hate crimes protection and police brutality protection would be a good start. And I think if we implemented the measures I mentioned above, it would make people feel less like they're fighting each other to hang onto the bottom rung of the economic ladder.
  #16  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:45 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I became more liberal over time when I had some life experience that challenged my sense of omnipotence and immortality. I realized even if we do our best, the majority of us will at some point be humbled by circumstances and need help. The best mechanism for that is history's best invention (insurance), which works best with large risk pools. So we need programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment. We could do even better by adding medical insurance and free college. Basically I'm all about not having a command economy, but having Nordic-style socialism.

I'm also anti-racism and anti-sexism. For the latter, equal rights amendment would be a good start. As for racism, I'm probably not the first person to say I don't have a solution. I don't think you can really compel people's hearts or minds, but hate crimes protection and police brutality protection would be a good start. And I think if we implemented the measures I mentioned above, it would make people feel less like they're fighting each other to hang onto the bottom rung of the economic ladder.
I am against racism and sexism and equal being the key word , there are a lot of things that ought to be worked on toward being equal.

For some reason a lot of legislation though seems only able to accomplish reversing privledge or just handing over certain benefits without also passing over the downsides that were traditionally associated with those benefits. To me legislation should be aimed at making such things more of a non-issue. Something that doesn't dis advantage anyone.

Idk it's nothing I feel real strongly about.... I guess it just is what it is.


Btw I don't identify with or really fit into any party that I know of.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-09-2019 at 10:48 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:03 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 34,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB99 View Post

I’m a liberal because the Republicans are fucking stupid. Their policies are idiotic, their premises are lies, their outcomes are immoral, and their motivations are a combination of spite, hatred, and religious fanaticism. And the last two years have proven that in top of their stupidity, dishonesty, anti-intellectualism, and incoherent rage, they are just plain incompetent.
Wow, I'm stealing this. Maybe I'll put it in my sig. Or on a giant flag. Or write it in giant letters with cow poop on the local high school football field so it can be read from the sky when the grass grows in.

Last edited by Acsenray; 01-09-2019 at 11:04 PM.
  #18  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:49 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,254
I'll hazard a guess that many more LGBT people would be conservative if other conservatives weren't so determined to reject them for being LGBT.
  #19  
Old 01-12-2019, 08:48 PM
snoe snoe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
I'll hazard a guess that many more LGBT people would be conservative if other conservatives weren't so determined to reject them for being LGBT.
There seems to be strong social-scientific evidence that an analogue is true of African Americans.
Quote:
This suggests that most black voters view a Democratic vote as a heuristic for supporting strong federal civil rights protections and support for a Republican presidential candidate as a vote against group well-being. And this also helps explain why political diversity within the black community remains below the surface, while their monolithic voting behavior is widely noted in every election cycle.
  #20  
Old 01-12-2019, 09:00 PM
snoe snoe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
I'll hazard a guess that many more LGBT people would be conservative if other conservatives weren't so determined to reject them for being LGBT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoe View Post
There seems to be strong social-scientific evidence that an analogue is true of African Americans.
I did conflate "be conservative" with "vote Republican." I mean, one can argue that it's actions which count, so you can't really be conservative and vote for Democrats. But the point is that members of these two groups show higher-than-average loyalty to the Democratic party while also exhibiting ideological diversity. And that's because, back to the OP (ha!), of the actions (and words) of the other party.
  #21  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:00 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
I expected white men to be under-represented among solid liberals, but they aren't. Their % pretty much matches the public. However both the tea party and solid liberals are more white than the US public in general, despite the gender ratios being 3:2 but reversed for both sides.

So from a psychological perspective, what motivates hetero white men who are liberals? Are they people who feel rejected from society for some other reason and identify with out-groups? Are they people who value fairness and justice more than the privileges of identity politics?

For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root. People who feel rejected from society want change and equality. People who benefit from inequality want to keep the unequal system. A hetero white male from an above average socioeconomic level benefits from the system as is.
This seems weirdly at odds with the actual data on liberal and conservative attitudes. AFAICT, feeling "rejected from society" is more likely to push hetero white men towards conservatism than liberalism, as this article describes:
Quote:
According to several recent analyses, about half of men feel American culture has become too soft and feminine, and they feel men are suffering as a result. Many seem to find comfort in Trump’s talk of male dominance and success.

Trump supporters are more likely than Clinton supporters to feel that society punishes men just for acting like men, while Clinton supporters are far more likely to “completely disagree” with that statement [...]

[...] education level and gender played a role in whether respondents felt men are punished unfairly by society. Men—and less-educated men in particular— were more likely than women to agree. [...]

The education gap seems even more striking when pollsters asked people if they think “society as a whole has become too soft and feminine.” White, working-class Americans—a crucial part of Trump’s base—were more likely to agree with that statement than white, college-educated respondents were. [...]

Meanwhile, an analysis published in the Harvard Business Review by Dan Cassino, a political science professor at Fairleigh Dickinson University, showed that Republican men increasingly feel discriminated against. [...]
Quote:
If we add in those men who say that men face “a moderate amount” of discrimination, 41 percent of Republican men now say that men are being discriminated against.
According to Cassino, the more independent and Republican men support Trump, the more likely they are to feel discriminated against. And the more marginalized they feel, the more negatively they view Hillary Clinton [...]

The problem, Cassino writes, is that many men see social gains as zero-sum. Women have notched progress toward equality in the workplace, parenting, and other domains in recent decades, and men see these advances as coming at their expense. [...]

In a separate study, Cassino found that even asking men whether they made “more, less, or about the same as their spouses” before asking them about the election increased their support for Trump—even among those who earned more than their wives. The question simply primed them to think about how good women supposedly have it.
  #22  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:07 AM
pool pool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Inside
Posts: 4,174
I'm not a fan of his methods but I think the Unabomber was correct about some of the things he said about Leftists and feelings of inferiority and identifying with minority movements because of this, to be fair I also agree with points he made against conservatives as well. He seemed pretty prescient of things that are happening now.
__________________
"You can do anything you set your mind to...But money helps"
  #23  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:19 AM
UDS UDS is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,450
There's a fundamental flaw in the OP's thinking. Just because the adoption of liberal values may be a response to a personal experience of exclusion, alienation or disempowerment does not mean that this is the only possible reason, or even the dominant reason, for adopting liberal values.

We can see this easily if we apply the same reasoning to a more specific example. Jews may oppose antisemitism because they themselves have been injured or affected by antisemitic attitudes, or because they are a member of a community so injured or affected. But this does not mean that, to account for non-Jews who also oppose antisemitism, we need to postulate that they, too, have been in some way personally affected or injured by antisemitism, or that they are members of a community injured or affected.
  #24  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:27 AM
ITR champion ITR champion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Plus non-whites are already rejected from society if we are being honest
Oh? Do you have a cite for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark
Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalize
And that?
  #25  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:03 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,645
I'll offer myself up as an anecdote. I'm an older straight white man from a rural Christian Western European background who's retired from a career in law enforcement. I'm so far inside the conservative demographic, it's scary.

But I'm not a conservative. Mainly because I disagree with many of the things they stand for.

I don't feel it's an issue of self-interest. I can't think of any way in which conservative policies would be targeting me personally. In fact, many conservative policies would benefit me personally because I'm on the inside, as I said above. The only way in which I can see conservative policies harming me are when those policies harm all of society.
  #26  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:08 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITR champion View Post
Oh? Do you have a cite for that?

And that?
Are you seriously asking for a cite that black people haven't done as well in American society as white people? And that gay people haven't done as well as straight people? And that women haven't done as well as men?
  #27  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:21 AM
ITR champion ITR champion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Are you seriously asking for a cite that black people haven't done as well in American society as white people? And that gay people haven't done as well as straight people? And that women haven't done as well as men?
No. The OP said that "non-whites are already rejected from society" and "both groups are marginalized". I'm asking for a cite for what he said.
  #28  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:48 AM
Miller's Avatar
Miller Miller is online now
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 43,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITR champion View Post
No. The OP said that "non-whites are already rejected from society" and "both groups are marginalized". I'm asking for a cite for what he said.
Are you for fucking real?

Last edited by Miller; 01-10-2019 at 01:49 AM.
  #29  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:09 AM
BigT's Avatar
BigT BigT is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 35,540
I'd argue it's your self-interested model that is wrong. Remove that, and look at our common interests. Could it be that all of us care about the ostracized and discriminated against?

I've said before that it didn't even occur to me to be self-interested in the 2016 election. There was just such a clear right and wrong, and it was just so clear how harmful Trump would be to those others, that it didn't even occur to me until after he was elected how it could affect me.

All of this said, I do think there may be some sort of trigger that helps people care about others. I think that, if you don't face hardships yourself, it can be really hard to care. I also think you have to be able to see others as real people, and not as people to blame for what hardships you have.

But, still, that's not self interest. Yes, my mental illness and being poor are probably a part of why I can empathize. But that doesn't mean I'm actually thinking about my own self-interest.

To me, morality is actually what separates humans from animals. My morality is part of how I value myself as a human being. When I do mess up, it hurts. Don't get me wrong--I learned long ago not to beat myself up over it, and to realize I can only just do what I can to be better in the future. But if I ever gave up and stopped trying, I would hate myself.
  #30  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:58 AM
Nava Nava is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 40,228
Both of my brothers are heterosexual, married white males, with children. Both in their first marriage. Middlebro is much more conservative than Littlebro, but he's also much worse at getting out of his own skin: his even more conservative wife, more so. Littlebro is better than Middlebro at negotiations among other things because he's better at seeing the other person's point of view... heck, because he actually tries from the start, while Middlebro doesn't until you spell things out for him. The same ability to think himself in another person's shoes makes Littlebro more liberal. That doesn't mean he's some sort of "kumbayah softie": he has no problem pointing out when someone is shooting himself in the foot, but when he does it's always something that's real and fixable. Littlebro is capable of seeing that something which favors him by hurting other people close to him end up in a total loss; Middlebro has problems seeing why something that bothers him should be put in place until you spell out that it favors the group; Middlebro's wife rejects any changes even if they favor her just because they are changes and attempts at explaining that they favor [whomever, which again may even include her] meet with a blank stare.

These three people are just examples, but the same traits appear to be common in many people when looking at these three traits: socially liberal, resistant to change and empathic. The more empathic and less resistant to change, the more liberal, with empathy usually being dominant over resistance to change.

Last edited by Nava; 01-10-2019 at 04:03 AM.
  #31  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:34 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 24,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root.
Well, there's your problem. Even if this were true for people overall, you can't assume this holds for all groups regardless of politics. Liberals may, in fact, be the set of people for whom this is not true.

But I'm not a liberal, so won't speak for them.

Last edited by MrDibble; 01-10-2019 at 05:38 AM.
  #32  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:43 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 23,786
IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
  #33  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:56 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
  #34  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:45 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 23,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Then why did most liberal people I know have liberal parents?

My son, hopefully, will be a liberal when he grows up, and to a large degree, it will be because we raised him right. I don't think we "indoctrinated" him, but I don't think that most conservative parents indoctrinate their children, either. They just expose them to their own opinions during their formative years, the same way we did.

And children are achingly aware of their parents' beliefs; after all, we're the most important people in their worlds.

Look, I know we all want to think of ourselves as great independent thinkers, but in the end, we're all largely products of our environment. Ask any psychologist, sociologist or anthropologist - the vast majority of them will agree with me.
  #35  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:50 AM
Icarus's Avatar
Icarus Icarus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In front of my PC, y tu?
Posts: 4,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Then why did most liberal people I know have liberal parents?
You seem to subscribe to the "tabula rasa" theory, in that a child is a blank slate to be filled in by their upbringing and environment. Could it be just as likely an inherited trait?

While I agree that upbringing and environment are a factor, I also strongly believe that there is a "born that way" factor. This is supported for me by brain science.

https://www.businessinsider.com/psyc...iberals-2018-2

So, I reject many premises of the OP. I don't agree that many people "develop" a political leaning based on experiences, instead they find reinforcement in ideas that align with their innate propensities. The notion that some definable percentage of white people feel rejected from society and therefore "adopt" liberal philosophies suggests a causation, whereas it is more likely that this is a case of correlation is not causation. Moreover, does the OP have any evidence to suggest that this portion of white people has reported that they feel rejected by society?
  #36  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:39 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Then why did most liberal people I know have liberal parents?
Your experience is different from mine. The parents of most liberal people I know are a mix of liberal, conservative, and apolitical. In cases where I know the parents have been strong liberals, the children are mildly liberal or apolitical. (Anecdotes, I know, but you brought yours).

Personally, my environment was conservative and I feel like the direct exposure made me run in the opposite direction. I tried on a number of political identities including libertarianism before I decided I was a plain old liberal or maybe a social democrat. Perhaps a liberal environment would have made me rebel toward conservatism. But I don't think so. I just don't have the meanness in my soul it takes to be a conservative.

Quote:
Look, I know we all want to think of ourselves as great independent thinkers, but in the end, we're all largely products of our environment. Ask any psychologist, sociologist or anthropologist - the vast majority of them will agree with me.
Eh... there's a raging battle over nature vs. nurture and I think the current consensus is that it's about half and half.

I'm not out to deny the effects of environment. Far from it. I am suggesting that conservative people are often raised by strongly opinionated conservative parents who actively push their ideology. Maybe there are liberal parents like that, but I think most liberals were raised in an apolitical or mildly liberal environment.

If you think conservatives households aren't indoctrination camps, here are 3 conservative childrens books titles, 2 of which I have seen displayed unironically on coffee tables:

Truax (a satire of The Lorax, and a defense of logging)
Help! Mom! There are liberals under my bed! (self-explanatory)
My Parents Open Carry

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 01-11-2019 at 04:42 PM.
  #37  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:37 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 4,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Of course not. Normal people let the public schools indoctrinate their children.

Liberals will usually get quizzical stares when encountering non-political folks. They won’t argue with them. They just internalize that the liberal rejects human nature and keep it moving. I wouldn’t say liberals are outcasts in society but I would guess they go through life feeling a bit alienated.

This is probably why they sequester themselves in like-minded communities and institutions. I see no problem with that, but the problem comes in when they try to control the rest of society and wield power through the various institutions they control.

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently. They permit different clothing, music (in some cases), and food, but that is about it. Everyone must engage in a stilted and managed social democracy or else there is oppression and inequality.

Many liberals are also against fun. This is the wowzer Mencken talked about. Uptight progressive types. This sets them apart from society to a degree.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-10-2019 at 08:41 AM.
  #38  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:43 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Of course not. Normal people let the public schools indoctrinate their children.

Liberals will usually get quizzical stares when encountering non-political folks. They won’t argue with them. They just internalize that the liberal rejects human nature and keep it moving. I wouldn’t say liberals are outcasts in society but I would guess they go through life feeling a bit alienated.

This is probably why they sequester themselves in like-minded communities and institutions. I see no problem with that, but the problem comes in when they try to control the rest of society and wield power through the various institutions they control.

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently. They permit different clothing, music (in some cases), and food, but that is about it. Everyone must engage in a stilted and managed social democracy or else there is oppression and inequality.

Many liberals are also against fun. This is the wowzer Mencken talked about. Uptight progressive types. This sets them apart from society to a degree.
Your psychic abilities (or maybe they're fantasies about millions of strangers that have nothing to do with reality?) continue to delight and amaze!
  #39  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:51 PM
JB99 JB99 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Of course not. Normal people let the public schools indoctrinate their children.

Liberals will usually get quizzical stares when encountering non-political folks. They won’t argue with them. They just internalize that the liberal rejects human nature and keep it moving. I wouldn’t say liberals are outcasts in society but I would guess they go through life feeling a bit alienated.

This is probably why they sequester themselves in like-minded communities and institutions. I see no problem with that, but the problem comes in when they try to control the rest of society and wield power through the various institutions they control.

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently. They permit different clothing, music (in some cases), and food, but that is about it. Everyone must engage in a stilted and managed social democracy or else there is oppression and inequality.

Many liberals are also against fun. This is the wowzer Mencken talked about. Uptight progressive types. This sets them apart from society to a degree.
Jesus Christ, this is wrong in every way.

We absolutely want to “live and let live.” That is why we become so angry when conservatives use their religion to dictate policy.
  #40  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:11 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 34,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently.
Can you offer 10 examples of what you're talking about? Actually, just five. Okay, just one will do for now.

Last edited by Acsenray; 01-10-2019 at 01:12 PM.
  #41  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:49 AM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Do you have a cite that children raised by liberals are more likely to become conservative than children raised by conservatives are to become liberal? I would think the exact opposite largely because younger people tend to skew liberal. That would imply to me (though it's not a guarantee) that children of conservatives are more likely to become liberal than vice versa.
  #42  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:28 AM
Nava Nava is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 40,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
My brothers and I were raised in the same household and exist in three different points of the political spectrum.

My mother is a definite unionist. Her sister is a Catexist.

My father and his siblings ranged from conservative independentist (married to a rabidly leftist independentist, daughter to a conservative independentist) to anarchoid to retrograde.

And I'm reasonably sure each of those groups was raised in the same house, by the same parents, attended the same schools...
__________________
Evidence gathered through the use of science is easily dismissed through the use of idiocy. - Czarcasm.

Last edited by Nava; 01-10-2019 at 09:30 AM.
  #43  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:51 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 23,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
My brothers and I were raised in the same household and exist in three different points of the political spectrum.

My mother is a definite unionist. Her sister is a Catexist.

My father and his siblings ranged from conservative independentist (married to a rabidly leftist independentist, daughter to a conservative independentist) to anarchoid to retrograde.

And I'm reasonably sure each of those groups was raised in the same house, by the same parents, attended the same schools...
I specifically said "most", not "all". Obviously I know plenty of families like yours, too, but they're still the minority - like, 25%? No more than that.
  #44  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:55 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 23,786
As to the OP, remember that there were plenty of white guys in 1920s Germany who also felt like they were rejected from society (whether they actually were is debatable). Liberals, they weren't.
  #45  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:51 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 34,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Catexist.
What?

Google doesn't help
  #46  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:59 AM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
What?

Google doesn't help
It was a typo. She meant Catexit. It's a movement that wants Catalonia (a region in North Eastern Spain bordering France whose largest city is Barcelona) to become independent from Spain. They speak a different language than the rest of Spain and have a different cultural tradition. The roots of it stretch way back to the days of Castille and Aragon, so it would be burdensome to get into the history of the movement, but it is widely supported in Catalonia with somewhere in the vicinity of half of the population supporting it in some sense (whether that be autonomy within Spain or as its own state.) The Catexit movement is widely accused of being racist or classist since much of the current beef is due to the fact that they are wealthier and have closer ties to Northern Europe than their southwestern compatriots and have been subsidizing the rest of the Spanish economy for quite a while. They would deny that assertion, but most people would probably place them as more right of center than left of center.

Last edited by senoy; 01-10-2019 at 11:03 AM.
  #47  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:03 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 30,137
You might find this chart about how the right perceive how the left see them (from this article) of interest.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it's how they see it. As advertisers say, the perception is the reality.

Last edited by Quartz; 01-10-2019 at 06:03 AM.
  #48  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:03 AM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
You might find this chart about how the right perceive how the left see them (from this article) of interest.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it's how they see it. As advertisers say, the perception is the reality.
Can you help us out with a hint of what we might find interesting about this? Is it political or philosophical? It mostly seems like a psychological/psychiatric issue to me.
  #49  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:48 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
You might find this chart about how the right perceive how the left see them (from this article) of interest.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it's how they see it. As advertisers say, the perception is the reality.
Who died and put the advertisers in charge?

It matters a lot whether your perception of reality is right or wrong. If your perception of reality is wrong then you will face difficulties in your interactions with reality. You make choices and take actions which you are confident will succeed based on your perception. And those choices and actions will fail if there's a significant difference between your perceived reality and actual reality.

A lot of people perceive the reality that vaccinations are unnecessary and dangerous. So they don't get their children vaccinated. Then actual reality steps in and gives their children measles. Their perception wasn't the reality.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 01-10-2019 at 12:50 PM.
  #50  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:23 AM
DrFidelius's Avatar
DrFidelius DrFidelius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 12,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Can you help us out with a hint of what we might find interesting about this? Is it political or philosophical? It mostly seems like a psychological/psychiatric issue to me.
It is clearly a chart of what conservative White men are frightened of based on variation from themselves.
__________________
The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not represent any other persons, organizations, spirits, thinking machines, hive minds or other sentient beings on this world or any adjacent dimensions in the multiverse.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017