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  #51  
Old 01-02-2019, 10:54 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is online now
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There is nothing of Protestant (or even non-Catholic) Theology in the Novus Ordo, so making that reference indicates a misunderstanding of what it means.

Trent was a sixteenth century reaction to the Reformation. It got a lot of things right (when it corrected abuses) and a number of things wrong (when it declared that the sixteenth century expressions and interpretations of theology were cast in concrete as if the church could proceed and develop in its understanding of God for 1500 years and then come to a screeching halt). Most of the opposition to Vatican II has been the result of people who were ignorant of (the changes in expression) in the first 1500 years of church history believing that the pronouncements from Trent were carved in stone that expressed the church teachings going back to the first century. The desire to hold tightly to the Tridentine mass indicates a belief that Trent was the final way to view God. There is beauty in the Tridentine mass, but it does not communicate the actual message of the church, today.
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  #52  
Old 01-02-2019, 11:10 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Nah, there's nothing particularly special about Latin itself, other than for sentimental and traditional reasons (it was after all the language of the western church for many centuries until very recently).

The differences I have observed are that in Latin mass parishes, there is a reverence that is lacking in most Novus Ordo parishes. Examples would be the Priest being ad orientam, most women wearing chapel veils, many families that take Church teaching re: contraception seriously, etc. Also, communion at the altar rail while kneeling. There's just less opportunity for liturgical abuses in the old rite.

Those things can happen in NO parishes too, and sometimes do, but the Church clearly lost something in the switch.

I do believe the NO can be done well with utmost reverence, but for some reason it rarely happens.

I just want more for my children. I want them to learn to worship, to learn that the mass is not about them, but about giving God what is his due.

With all of the freedoms that Priests have in the NO, my experience has been that the Priest tends to be too concerned with pleasing everyone.
Fair enough point, but exactly the sort of stuff that drove me away from the Church.
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:45 PM
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It was certainly jarring to hear, but it is not heresy.
Oh yeah? Tell that to the Lollards.
  #54  
Old 01-03-2019, 03:02 PM
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This thread appears to have drifted from "Is the Church shifting back to Latin?" to "Should the Church be shifting back to Latin?". And while that's a perfectly fine topic for discussion, it's not a GQ topic.

Moving to Great Debates.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:07 PM
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EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:50 PM
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There's Catholic parishes that tolerate women and gays out there.
A couple of years ago, one of the kids my SiL got for First Communion Catechesis was the son of a married lesbian couple who attend Mass regularly, unlike several hundred different-sex-married couples I could mention. SiL started to protest and the priest told her "we'll be sorry to lose you as a catechist". That was the end of the protest.

The only times I've seen Latin Mass offered semi-regularly in Southern Europe, it has been in the kind of locations that have a bazillion tourists and offer Mass in half a dozen languages. I think that in general US Catholics tend to be on the conservative/retrograde side compared with those in Southern Europe because it acts as a specific marker; the same might apply to Canada. Conversely, in Latin America the Evangelicals are picking up a lot of the conservatives, thus leaving an RCC that's more lefty.




Chronos, a lot of people don't have the slightest idea why they're genuflecting/bowing towards the altar; many will do it so even if the box holding the Eucharist is to the side, or as you mention when the light is off or the box is open and showing clearly empty.
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2019, 03:51 PM
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EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
I'm not EscAlaMike, but I will venture to say that it's because they've always done it. In my experience these, the beloved Little Old Italian and Polish Ladies of my youth, are not people with deep theological educations. When they were young the Sisters told them to do that, saying it's Jesus' house, so they do it today.
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:20 PM
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EscAlaMike, I can see your argument that those practices are more reverent... but is that why the people in those parishes are doing it, or is it just because that's the way they've always done it?

By way of example, it's customary, among observant Catholics, to genuflect towards the Tabernacle when entering the Church, or passing in front of it. This is meant as a token of reverence for the Eucharist. But if you go to church on Good Friday and pay attention, you'll still see a lot of Catholics genuflecting towards the Tabernacle, even though, on that day, it doesn't contain the Eucharist. So what are they really showing reverence to on that day? And what are they really showing reverence to on all of the other days?
Regarding the genuflecting, I've noticed the same thing and don't have an answer except to agree that it's probably just habit mixed with ignorance.

I can't really answer either for Latin mass attendees, but would venture to guess that there is less theological ignorance among that crowd for the simple reason that most people attend TLM intentionally, even driving over an hour every Sunday for it. Since Latin mass parishes are so rare, one has to seek them out to find one for the most part, and is not generally just the closest neighborhood parish.
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:59 PM
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I can't really answer either for Latin mass attendees, but would venture to guess that there is less theological ignorance among that crowd for the simple reason that most people attend TLM intentionally, even driving over an hour every Sunday for it. Since Latin mass parishes are so rare, one has to seek them out to find one for the most part, and is not generally just the closest neighborhood parish.
You ever try arguing with a babushka who wants to take Mass HER way? Anyway, I'm tempted to go so I can tell my kid, "I had that whole thing memorized."
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:05 AM
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I can't really answer either for Latin mass attendees, but would venture to guess that there is less theological ignorance among that crowd for the simple reason that most people attend TLM intentionally, even driving over an hour every Sunday for it.
The same is valid for "people who regularly attend an inconvenient* and out-of-parish Mass" regardless of language used. As you said yourself, there's nothing particularly magical about Latin; apparently there does be something magical in your perception of it, and in the perception of your Latinophile peers, since you seem to think that having to learn to pray in a foreign language will improve your children's theology and piety.



* Stuff such as attending at Mom's parish after spending the night at Mom's or before lunch with Mom doesn't count as much.
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  #61  
Old 01-04-2019, 06:40 PM
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As you said yourself, there's nothing particularly magical about Latin...
That's what I thought until some 30 years ago when 60 Minutes broadcast a Southern Baptist exorcism done in Latin. ""Exi ergo, transgressor. Exi, seductor, plene omni dolo et fallacia," etc. Old Scratch had a terrible time in Latin class, so it's still the go-to language to piss him off. I don't make this shit up. I have mass media to do it for me.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:36 PM
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That's what I thought until some 30 years ago when 60 Minutes broadcast a Southern Baptist exorcism done in Latin. ""Exi ergo, transgressor. Exi, seductor, plene omni dolo et fallacia," etc. Old Scratch had a terrible time in Latin class, so it's still the go-to language to piss him off. I don't make this shit up. I have mass media to do it for me.
That was an amusing article, had to double check to see it wasn't an Onion piece. Surprised at parts of it. Such as learning Pope Francis was caught on film doing an exorcism. Have other recent popes being doing that?

From your link, it said that in accordance with the 1999 update, a priest cannot perform an exorcism until the possessed person has consulted a psychiatric health professional to rule out the possibility of mental illness. So nothing mentally wrong, eh, just a bout of the devil, ain't that good to know. Seems psychosomatic to me. I guess it may some serve a purpose for a church to carry out such an affair to appease the person if he or she truly thinks he is possessed by the devil. Perhaps if they would quit giving reverence to such nonsense though, they wouldn't have these fits.

It appears the exorcism gives the afflicted some kind of a placebo to cure the nocebo, both of which they probably had a hand in though through their teachings and like-minded people sharing similar beliefs; and had the person not believed in such things to begin with, doubt would have needed this kind of attention. But who knows, people that are this susceptible are liable to get themselves into other situations.

Gotta hand it to ya, though, Latin does seem bad ass to do one of these exorcisms. I wonder if a Pentecostal speaking in tongues could give 'em a run for the money though, and maybe give equal results.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:46 PM
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According to Gary Gygax, Latin is the Lawful something alignment secret language.

I'm pretty sure Chaotic something is what you talk when completely smashed.
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:03 PM
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I'm pretty sure Chaotic something is what you talk when completely smashed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZJdil0_HI
  #65  
Old 01-05-2019, 11:13 AM
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If Latin was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for us.
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:19 AM
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What are you talking about, Icerigger? Everyone knows Jesus spoke Elizabethan English.
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:20 AM
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The same is valid for "people who regularly attend an inconvenient* and out-of-parish Mass" regardless of language used.
Yes, people attend different parishes based on what they prioritize. There could be any number of reasons.

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As you said yourself, there's nothing particularly magical about Latin; apparently there does be something magical in your perception of it, and in the perception of your Latinophile peers, since you seem to think that having to learn to pray in a foreign language will improve your children's theology and piety.
It's not the Latin. It's the whole atmosphere of worship. In TLM, the Priest is rarely talking to or facing us, but God. He is not cracking jokes or singing happy birthday to parishioners. He's not giving communion to parishioners living in public adultery. There are many families with lots of children unlike our local parish where my wife and I are freaks for adhering to Catholic teaching and constantly get asked about our sex life (so are you done having children?).
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Old 01-05-2019, 12:01 PM
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Seen some youtube clips, doesn't appear to me Pope Francis is actually doing an exorcism here, but the guy in the wheelchair seemed to be playing his part like it was. The man still says he is possessed.
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Old 01-05-2019, 12:06 PM
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It's not the Latin. It's the whole atmosphere of worship. In TLM, the Priest is rarely talking to or facing us, but God. He is not cracking jokes or singing happy birthday to parishioners. He's not giving communion to parishioners living in public adultery. There are many families with lots of children unlike our local parish where my wife and I are freaks for adhering to Catholic teaching and constantly get asked about our sex life (so are you done having children?).
Maybe it's just you or the two congregations you know. I'm not old enough to remember when every Mass was a Latin Mass- but I am old enough to remember the old ladies saying the Rosary instead of paying attention and participating in the English Mass. Presumably, that was a habit they carried over from when Mass was in Latin and they couldn't follow what the priest was saying, at least not during the readings. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "public adultery" , but I imagine it involves a presumption of some sort on your part that a necessary annulment was not obtained. I've known many people who were done having their one or two children before 1965 and I've never seen a priest singing " Happy birthday" at Mass.

Or maybe you referred to 'theological ignorance" and "reverence" when you really meant something else.
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Old 01-05-2019, 07:40 PM
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "public adultery" , but I imagine it involves a presumption of some sort on your part that a necessary annulment was not obtained.
Yeah, the definition of adultery has been stretched over the millenia.
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Or maybe you referred to 'theological ignorance" and "reverence" when you really meant something else.
I've been told that people stop being able to hear high frequencies when we get older, so maybe someone can explain why the dogs are barking and I'm feeling insulted. I sometimes need threads like this to remind me why I fell away from the Mother Church.
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Old 01-05-2019, 09:34 PM
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Maybe it's just you or the two congregations you know. I'm not old enough to remember when every Mass was a Latin Mass- but I am old enough to remember the old ladies saying the Rosary instead of paying attention and participating in the English Mass. Presumably, that was a habit they carried over from when Mass was in Latin and they couldn't follow what the priest was saying, at least not during the readings. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "public adultery" , but I imagine it involves a presumption of some sort on your part that a necessary annulment was not obtained. I've known many people who were done having their one or two children before 1965 and I've never seen a priest singing " Happy birthday" at Mass.

Or maybe you referred to 'theological ignorance" and "reverence" when you really meant something else.
No, of course things were not all sunshine and roses before V2.

As for public adultery, I guess fornication would have been more appropriate. The two specific examples from my experience are a man living in a publicly homosexual "marriage" (maybe they are celibate ), and a young unmarried cohabitating couple who are obviously not celibate as they had a child together. This woman was also incidentally a CCD teacher for one of my children. These things might be tolerable if it were just me, but I want better for my children.

This priest definitely sings happy birthday at mass.

Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't know what you're trying to imply by your last sentence, so I'll just leave it be.

Having left Protestantism for the Catholic Church, I just want better than Protestantism + the Eucharist. If I could find that in the NO then great; but at least near me TLM seems to be the only option.
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Old 01-05-2019, 09:36 PM
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...So, the parishes where people are being denied communion for adultery are not the ones where everyone's paying attention to each others' sex lives?
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Old 01-05-2019, 09:58 PM
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But EscAlaMike, if everyone started doing mass in Latin, wouldn't the guy who sings "happy birthday" keep doing it, just tuck it in between Latin prayers? I think you are enjoying the Latin Mass near you specifically because it's an unusual collection of people looking for a more traditional experience, and they express that in language as well as in other ways.

(And "happy birthday"? Really? I enjoy attending other people's religious services, and I've been to lots of services in lots of denominations, and I've never come across anyone singing "happy birthday" during services.)
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Old 01-05-2019, 10:04 PM
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Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't know what you're trying to imply by your last sentence, so I'll just leave it be.
The only thing I meant was that maybe you meant something more like "traditional" or "conservative" when you referred to "reverence" and "theological ignorance". Because it's not "theological ignorance" for a priest not to make assumptions about people's sex lives. or whether they are married or not. When my kids were in Catholic school, I could not have told you which of their classmates' parents were married in accordance with the rules of the Catholic church. For the most part, the priests wouldn't have known either- it's not as though I had to present my marriage certificate to register the kids for school. People made all sorts of assumptions- most of which were wrong. They assumed my husband and I were not married because we didn't have the same last name. When my husband registered for RCIA , it was a big deal because the priests and everyone else had assumed he was Catholic for the 4 years our kids had attended the school.

Assumptions can be wrong- maybe that homosexual couple is celibate. And maybe the couple with the baby got married last month and didn't feel the need to inform you.

Last edited by doreen; 01-05-2019 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 01-05-2019, 10:26 PM
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When I usher I practically drag the newbies (especially those who came for a niece's Baptism--I know uncomfortable Catholics when I see them) up for the Eucharist. We don't get into discussions of Trans vs Cons vs True Presence--I'm an agnostic Memorialist but avoid the topic--and a blessing is good, wherever you find it.

Shit oh dear, Pope Frankie has been dancing on a blanket "we're co-communicants" since taking over, held back by stick in the muds who can't accept that things are different than in 1955. My parish is growing from the young end. Is yours, EscAlaMike?

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  #76  
Old 01-06-2019, 01:45 AM
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As for public adultery, I guess fornication would have been more appropriate. The two specific examples from my experience are ... and a young unmarried cohabitating couple who are obviously not celibate as they had a child together.
Speaking of ignorance...

That couple are married or not depending on which definition you use.
Married naturally: yes.
Married according to your local government: no.
Married theologically: you don't know. Requirements for a marriage to be theologically valid do not include a wedding. They're about commitment, not about paperwork.
Married according to Canon law: yes. In fact, before Trent's recommendation that all weddings include a priest (i.e., a person who was sure to be able to read and write and who had access to a stable building where records could be kept) as a witness, and that said witness keep written records, "shacking up" was the usual method. Note that a wedding witnessed by a priest is a recommendation, not a requirement. Before Trent, the immense majority of non-royal marriage cases coming in front of the Rota involved a woman suing a husband who had decided to do something that as a married man he could not do (join a convent or marry another woman were the most frequent ones): having a document eliminates the possibility of such cases, as the piece of paper is proof of marriage.
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  #77  
Old 01-06-2019, 02:31 AM
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(And "happy birthday"? Really? I enjoy attending other people's religious services, and I've been to lots of services in lots of denominations, and I've never come across anyone singing "happy birthday" during services.)
Must have been the solemn prayer "felicem diem natalem", followed by a variant of "gaudeamus igitur" and "omnia dicta fortiora si dicta latina"
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Old 01-06-2019, 08:09 AM
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The Catholic view of marriage is very very strange, they really never know if their marriage is valid or not, a marriage tribunal would have to decide.


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Old 01-06-2019, 05:26 PM
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I can't really answer either for Latin mass attendees, but would venture to guess that there is less theological ignorance among that crowd for the simple reason that most people attend TLM intentionally, even driving over an hour every Sunday for it.
This would fly in direct contradiction to my experience where the few people who sought out a mass in Latin would be a mixture of sedevacantists, people who grew up being told (pre-Vatican II) that the church was perpetually unchanging (being unaware of even the changes that occurred between Trent and Vatican II) who were frightened by the changes, and some who were angry that they could now eat meat on Friday without going to hell. I have only met two people who were strong proponents of the Latin mass who could even discuss theology without falling back on the Baltimore Catechism Volume I.

As for your comments regarding reverence, I reject them. What you are describing is not reverence, (i.e. demonstrating respect), but a specific form of comportment. There is nothing wrong with avoiding the familiar when in church; it is one form of reverence. However, it is a specific form that is hardly the only form. What is irreverent, (i.e. failing to show respect), to celebrating a birthday?
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:01 PM
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I think you are enjoying the Latin Mass near you specifically because it's an unusual collection of people looking for a more traditional experience, and they express that in language as well as in other ways.
This may very well be true.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:08 PM
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This would fly in direct contradiction to my experience where the few people who sought out a mass in Latin would be a mixture of sedevacantists, people who grew up being told (pre-Vatican II) that the church was perpetually unchanging (being unaware of even the changes that occurred between Trent and Vatican II) who were frightened by the changes, and some who were angry that they could now eat meat on Friday without going to hell. I have only met two people who were strong proponents of the Latin mass who could even discuss theology without falling back on the Baltimore Catechism Volume I.
Fair enough for you, but that's not my experience at all.

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As for your comments regarding reverence, I reject them. What you are describing is not reverence, (i.e. demonstrating respect), but a specific form of comportment. There is nothing wrong with avoiding the familiar when in church; it is one form of reverence. However, it is a specific form that is hardly the only form. What is irreverent, (i.e. failing to show respect), to celebrating a birthday?
I would just say it draws attention away from what we are at mass to do (I.e. participate in the divine mysteries) and instead focuses on an individual person. It's the same idea as the Priest calling a choir member up to the front for applause, something I have also seen happen. Mass is not the place to celebrate personal accomplishments or milestones. Save it for the fellowship hall afterwards.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:52 PM
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The Catholic view of marriage is very very strange, they really never know if their marriage is valid or not, a marriage tribunal would have to decide.
*shrug* You get used to it. They've had loads of time making it more complex.

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But EscAlaMike, if everyone started doing mass in Latin, wouldn't the guy who sings "happy birthday" keep doing it, just tuck it in between Latin prayers?
We do it during announcements, after Communion.
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I think you are enjoying the Latin Mass near you specifically because it's an unusual collection of people looking for a more traditional experience, and they express that in language as well as in other ways.
My older brother married a Siberian woman and they went Russian Rite, him because even the Latin Massers were too progressive and her to have people who speak her language.
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:21 AM
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Yeah, the definition of adultery has been stretched over the millenia.
True enough.

Maybe I was brought up real sheltered, but my first definition of "adultery" was sexual relations between partners who are not married to one another. Even if neither one of the participants in the sexual relations had ever been married (which, istm, does violence to the meaning of the term that spawned the name of the "sin").
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:19 PM
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Yeah, the definition of adultery has been stretched over the millenia.
Yes it has, starting with Jesus' "stretching" of the definition.

Matthew 5:27-28
  #85  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:21 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is online now
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Originally Posted by Icerigger View Post
The Catholic view of marriage is very very strange
Or - the Catholic view is normative while the rest of the world's view descends into chaos and confusion - depending on one's perspective of course.
  #86  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:20 PM
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dropzone dropzone is offline
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Or - the Catholic view is normative while the rest of the world's view descends into chaos and confusion - depending on one's perspective of course.
No offense intended, friend, but you were born to be Catholic! Like how my brother was born to be Eastern Rite and my wife, originally Methodist, was a born Lutheran ("Full Bible but not crazy about it"). You found a home and you embraced it fully and want to spread the Word. I, an Evangelical Lutheran because they are insanely tolerant/hopeful, admire people who can do that, unlike my father who said of enthusiastic converts, "There's nothing worse than a reformed whore."

No, really, God (or whoever) bless you, and I'm cool with your beliefs as long as you don't call for the return of Torquemada.
  #87  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:41 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is online now
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No offense intended, friend, but you were born to be Catholic!
None taken, and I appreciate your perspective.

May God bless you as well.
  #88  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:11 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
No, of course things were not all sunshine and roses before V2.

As for public adultery, I guess fornication would have been more appropriate. The two specific examples from my experience are a man living in a publicly homosexual "marriage" (maybe they are celibate ), and a young unmarried cohabitating couple who are obviously not celibate as they had a child together. This woman was also incidentally a CCD teacher for one of my children. These things might be tolerable if it were just me, but I want better for my children.

This priest definitely sings happy birthday at mass.
I understand that lots of parishes have adopted the practice of incorporating the services of a "cantor" in the Mass. The priest should really leave the "Happy Birthday"s to him.

And they should try using the Happy Birthday songs that the restaurants use, just in case the Supreme Court reverses the outcome of the Hill sisters' version. Not that Warner Chappell Music Inc, is likely to initiate a lawsuit against the RCC, but, it would be a little unseemly to defy that copyright after rolling over and submitting to F.E.L. over the mimeographed song sheets.
  #89  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:02 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "public adultery" ,
He means "living in sin".

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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
The only thing I meant was that maybe you meant something more like "traditional" or "conservative" when you referred to "reverence" and "theological ignorance".
I think he meant judgementalism and guilt.

Quote:
Assumptions can be wrong- maybe that homosexual couple is celibate. And maybe the couple with the baby got married last month and didn't feel the need to inform you.
And maybe it's none of his business if they are banging each other silly.
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