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Old 01-09-2019, 06:57 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Is there any correlation between white liberals and feeling rejected from society

I know not all liberals are white, but around 3/4 of them are. Plus non-whites are already rejected from society if we are being honest so I can understand why non-whites lean leftist in politics.

The % of LGBT who identify as liberal is higher than among the general population. Again, expected.

What about white heterosexual men who are liberals? The % of the base of the conservative party, like the tea party, have a huge % who are heterosexual white men. And that is expected, there are certain privileges of being a hetero white men that conservatives want to guard and keep only to themselves.

According to this study, the tea party is 89% white and 59% male. That works out to 52% of the tea party as white men, when in the US in general I think only 30% of the public are white men. Among solid liberals, the gender roles are reversed. 59% female to 41% male. But at 73% white, that still means 30% of solid liberals are white men, which is about equal to the ratio among the general public (America as a whole is about 60% white, and about 50% male).

I expected white men to be under-represented among solid liberals, but they aren't. Their % pretty much matches the public. However both the tea party and solid liberals are more white than the US public in general, despite the gender ratios being 3:2 but reversed for both sides.

So from a psychological perspective, what motivates hetero white men who are liberals? Are they people who feel rejected from society for some other reason and identify with out-groups? Are they people who value fairness and justice more than the privileges of identity politics?

For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root. People who feel rejected from society want change and equality. People who benefit from inequality want to keep the unequal system. A hetero white male from an above average socioeconomic level benefits from the system as is.

But among people who benefit from the inequality (hetero white men, especially those from higher socioeconomic statuses, aka a lot of the liberals on this board), what motivates their liberalism? Has it been studied?

I guess, again, to me I assume it is one of two things.

1. Feeling rejected from mainstream society in some other way than gender, race or sexuality.

2. A moral or value system that rejects social hierarchies and believes in equality (the same way FDR rejected the greed and social darwinism of his economic class and believed in leftist economics).

If the first, what factors could those be? Poverty? Mental illness? Belief in a counterculture?

If point two, what distinguishes someone from a background of privilege who becomes a believer in social hierarchies vs someone who believes in egalitarianism?
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:03 PM
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I'm a white heterosexual man and I'm liberal because while I'm selfish, I'm not stupid, and a rising tide raises all boats - including mine.

Plus I'm not a racist bigoted asshole. That too.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:08 PM
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I question the OP's premise that "rejection from society" is a motive for liberalism. How about a desire for justice, fairness, and equality, even when that might be individually disadvantageous?
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:35 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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I hardly feel like I'm rejected from society. What an odd idea to have about liberals.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:37 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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I hardly feel like I'm rejected from society. What an odd idea to have about liberals.
Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:42 PM
Red Wiggler Red Wiggler is offline
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A just and fair society is the best kind to live in.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:46 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
What's the fallacy for assuming that everybody who acts the same has the same motivations?
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:00 PM
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Liberals are distinguished by empathy for people who are victimized by the powerful group/s in our culture, even if those victims are not like them. At least, that is what I think of as the distinguishing trait. Some people who are oppressed are able to see that they have common cause with others who are oppressed, who are different from them. They would be liberals too.
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:11 PM
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I'm a white male liberal- educated and employed in a good job. Largely I identify as liberal because I believe that's what Christ wants us to be. To sacrifice our own self-interest for the sake of others.
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:19 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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I'm a white male liberal- educated and employed in a good job. Largely I identify as liberal because I believe that's what Christ wants us to be. To sacrifice our own self-interest for the sake of others.
Yeah, that.
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:12 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
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I became more liberal over time when I had some life experience that challenged my sense of omnipotence and immortality. I realized even if we do our best, the majority of us will at some point be humbled by circumstances and need help. The best mechanism for that is history's best invention (insurance), which works best with large risk pools. So we need programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment. We could do even better by adding medical insurance and free college. Basically I'm all about not having a command economy, but having Nordic-style socialism.

I'm also anti-racism and anti-sexism. For the latter, equal rights amendment would be a good start. As for racism, I'm probably not the first person to say I don't have a solution. I don't think you can really compel people's hearts or minds, but hate crimes protection and police brutality protection would be a good start. And I think if we implemented the measures I mentioned above, it would make people feel less like they're fighting each other to hang onto the bottom rung of the economic ladder.
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:40 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Is it?

Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalized and see their civil and human rights threatened by conservatives in mainstream society.

non-whites are more leftist than whites, but I don't know if they are more liberal. blacks aren't necessarily more liberal than society at large, while LGBT are 2x as liberal as the public at large.
On the subject, LGBTs are more democratic than average (about 75%) but 2x as liberal as the general public.

Blacks on the other hand are much more democratic than average (about 90%) but roughly just as liberal (25% or so) as the public at large.

So I don't know how the divisions work between in-groups and out-groups and how that affects political partisanship or ideological partisanship.

Blacks are more likely to be democrats, but less likely to be liberals than LGBT.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:23 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
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Liberals are distinguished by empathy for people who are victimized by the powerful group/s in our culture, even if those victims are not like them. At least, that is what I think of as the distinguishing trait. Some people who are oppressed are able to see that they have common cause with others who are oppressed, who are different from them. They would be liberals too.
What he said.

Also sometimes it's just cool to be a hippie.
I'm betting the largest portion of those white male liberals are also college aged or at least under 30.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:27 PM
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Straight white cis male here:

I don’t feel “rejected” or excluded at all. I’m well aware that I’m in the most favored, protected, and privileged group on Earth. Being a military retiree is just the cherry on top of my big white male cake.

I’m a liberal because the Republicans are fucking stupid. Their policies are idiotic, their premises are lies, their outcomes are immoral, and their motivations are a combination of spite, hatred, and religious fanaticism. And the last two years have proven that in top of their stupidity, dishonesty, anti-intellectualism, and incoherent rage, they are just plain incompetent.

The only way in which I feel marginalized or frustrated is the frequent reminders that I am surrounded by fuckwits who insist on stupid policies for stupid reasons.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:45 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
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I became more liberal over time when I had some life experience that challenged my sense of omnipotence and immortality. I realized even if we do our best, the majority of us will at some point be humbled by circumstances and need help. The best mechanism for that is history's best invention (insurance), which works best with large risk pools. So we need programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment. We could do even better by adding medical insurance and free college. Basically I'm all about not having a command economy, but having Nordic-style socialism.

I'm also anti-racism and anti-sexism. For the latter, equal rights amendment would be a good start. As for racism, I'm probably not the first person to say I don't have a solution. I don't think you can really compel people's hearts or minds, but hate crimes protection and police brutality protection would be a good start. And I think if we implemented the measures I mentioned above, it would make people feel less like they're fighting each other to hang onto the bottom rung of the economic ladder.
I am against racism and sexism and equal being the key word , there are a lot of things that ought to be worked on toward being equal.

For some reason a lot of legislation though seems only able to accomplish reversing privledge or just handing over certain benefits without also passing over the downsides that were traditionally associated with those benefits. To me legislation should be aimed at making such things more of a non-issue. Something that doesn't dis advantage anyone.

Idk it's nothing I feel real strongly about.... I guess it just is what it is.


Btw I don't identify with or really fit into any party that I know of.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-09-2019 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:03 PM
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I’m a liberal because the Republicans are fucking stupid. Their policies are idiotic, their premises are lies, their outcomes are immoral, and their motivations are a combination of spite, hatred, and religious fanaticism. And the last two years have proven that in top of their stupidity, dishonesty, anti-intellectualism, and incoherent rage, they are just plain incompetent.
Wow, I'm stealing this. Maybe I'll put it in my sig. Or on a giant flag. Or write it in giant letters with cow poop on the local high school football field so it can be read from the sky when the grass grows in.

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Old 01-09-2019, 11:41 PM
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...the Republicans are fucking stupid. Their policies are idiotic, their premises are lies, their outcomes are immoral, and their motivations are a combination of spite, hatred, and religious fanaticism. And the last two years have proven that in top of their stupidity, dishonesty, anti-intellectualism, and incoherent rage, they are just plain incompetent....
Ok, but maybe the fact that you're non-stupid, honest, moral, unspiteful, unfanatical, coherent, calm and pro-competence is just leading to feelings of rejection?

Really, the OP is laughable. OP, you can't spot any objective reasons to be opposed to the clusterfuck that is Trumpism and the Tea Party right, liberalism must derive from some kind of psychological issue?

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Old 01-09-2019, 11:49 PM
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I'll hazard a guess that many more LGBT people would be conservative if other conservatives weren't so determined to reject them for being LGBT.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:00 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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I expected white men to be under-represented among solid liberals, but they aren't. Their % pretty much matches the public. However both the tea party and solid liberals are more white than the US public in general, despite the gender ratios being 3:2 but reversed for both sides.

So from a psychological perspective, what motivates hetero white men who are liberals? Are they people who feel rejected from society for some other reason and identify with out-groups? Are they people who value fairness and justice more than the privileges of identity politics?

For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root. People who feel rejected from society want change and equality. People who benefit from inequality want to keep the unequal system. A hetero white male from an above average socioeconomic level benefits from the system as is.
This seems weirdly at odds with the actual data on liberal and conservative attitudes. AFAICT, feeling "rejected from society" is more likely to push hetero white men towards conservatism than liberalism, as this article describes:
Quote:
According to several recent analyses, about half of men feel American culture has become too soft and feminine, and they feel men are suffering as a result. Many seem to find comfort in Trump’s talk of male dominance and success.

Trump supporters are more likely than Clinton supporters to feel that society punishes men just for acting like men, while Clinton supporters are far more likely to “completely disagree” with that statement [...]

[...] education level and gender played a role in whether respondents felt men are punished unfairly by society. Men—and less-educated men in particular— were more likely than women to agree. [...]

The education gap seems even more striking when pollsters asked people if they think “society as a whole has become too soft and feminine.” White, working-class Americans—a crucial part of Trump’s base—were more likely to agree with that statement than white, college-educated respondents were. [...]

Meanwhile, an analysis published in the Harvard Business Review by Dan Cassino, a political science professor at Fairleigh Dickinson University, showed that Republican men increasingly feel discriminated against. [...]
Quote:
If we add in those men who say that men face “a moderate amount” of discrimination, 41 percent of Republican men now say that men are being discriminated against.
According to Cassino, the more independent and Republican men support Trump, the more likely they are to feel discriminated against. And the more marginalized they feel, the more negatively they view Hillary Clinton [...]

The problem, Cassino writes, is that many men see social gains as zero-sum. Women have notched progress toward equality in the workplace, parenting, and other domains in recent decades, and men see these advances as coming at their expense. [...]

In a separate study, Cassino found that even asking men whether they made “more, less, or about the same as their spouses” before asking them about the election increased their support for Trump—even among those who earned more than their wives. The question simply primed them to think about how good women supposedly have it.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:07 AM
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I'm not a fan of his methods but I think the Unabomber was correct about some of the things he said about Leftists and feelings of inferiority and identifying with minority movements because of this, to be fair I also agree with points he made against conservatives as well. He seemed pretty prescient of things that are happening now.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:19 AM
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There's a fundamental flaw in the OP's thinking. Just because the adoption of liberal values may be a response to a personal experience of exclusion, alienation or disempowerment does not mean that this is the only possible reason, or even the dominant reason, for adopting liberal values.

We can see this easily if we apply the same reasoning to a more specific example. Jews may oppose antisemitism because they themselves have been injured or affected by antisemitic attitudes, or because they are a member of a community so injured or affected. But this does not mean that, to account for non-Jews who also oppose antisemitism, we need to postulate that they, too, have been in some way personally affected or injured by antisemitism, or that they are members of a community injured or affected.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:27 AM
ITR champion ITR champion is offline
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Plus non-whites are already rejected from society if we are being honest
Oh? Do you have a cite for that?
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark
Women are more liberal than men, LGBT are more liberal than heterosexuals. Both groups are marginalize
And that?
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:03 AM
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I'll offer myself up as an anecdote. I'm an older straight white man from a rural Christian Western European background who's retired from a career in law enforcement. I'm so far inside the conservative demographic, it's scary.

But I'm not a conservative. Mainly because I disagree with many of the things they stand for.

I don't feel it's an issue of self-interest. I can't think of any way in which conservative policies would be targeting me personally. In fact, many conservative policies would benefit me personally because I'm on the inside, as I said above. The only way in which I can see conservative policies harming me are when those policies harm all of society.
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:08 AM
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Oh? Do you have a cite for that?

And that?
Are you seriously asking for a cite that black people haven't done as well in American society as white people? And that gay people haven't done as well as straight people? And that women haven't done as well as men?
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:21 AM
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Are you seriously asking for a cite that black people haven't done as well in American society as white people? And that gay people haven't done as well as straight people? And that women haven't done as well as men?
No. The OP said that "non-whites are already rejected from society" and "both groups are marginalized". I'm asking for a cite for what he said.
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:48 AM
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No. The OP said that "non-whites are already rejected from society" and "both groups are marginalized". I'm asking for a cite for what he said.
Are you for fucking real?

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Old 01-10-2019, 02:09 AM
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I'd argue it's your self-interested model that is wrong. Remove that, and look at our common interests. Could it be that all of us care about the ostracized and discriminated against?

I've said before that it didn't even occur to me to be self-interested in the 2016 election. There was just such a clear right and wrong, and it was just so clear how harmful Trump would be to those others, that it didn't even occur to me until after he was elected how it could affect me.

All of this said, I do think there may be some sort of trigger that helps people care about others. I think that, if you don't face hardships yourself, it can be really hard to care. I also think you have to be able to see others as real people, and not as people to blame for what hardships you have.

But, still, that's not self interest. Yes, my mental illness and being poor are probably a part of why I can empathize. But that doesn't mean I'm actually thinking about my own self-interest.

To me, morality is actually what separates humans from animals. My morality is part of how I value myself as a human being. When I do mess up, it hurts. Don't get me wrong--I learned long ago not to beat myself up over it, and to realize I can only just do what I can to be better in the future. But if I ever gave up and stopped trying, I would hate myself.
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Old 01-10-2019, 03:58 AM
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Both of my brothers are heterosexual, married white males, with children. Both in their first marriage. Middlebro is much more conservative than Littlebro, but he's also much worse at getting out of his own skin: his even more conservative wife, more so. Littlebro is better than Middlebro at negotiations among other things because he's better at seeing the other person's point of view... heck, because he actually tries from the start, while Middlebro doesn't until you spell things out for him. The same ability to think himself in another person's shoes makes Littlebro more liberal. That doesn't mean he's some sort of "kumbayah softie": he has no problem pointing out when someone is shooting himself in the foot, but when he does it's always something that's real and fixable. Littlebro is capable of seeing that something which favors him by hurting other people close to him end up in a total loss; Middlebro has problems seeing why something that bothers him should be put in place until you spell out that it favors the group; Middlebro's wife rejects any changes even if they favor her just because they are changes and attempts at explaining that they favor [whomever, which again may even include her] meet with a blank stare.

These three people are just examples, but the same traits appear to be common in many people when looking at these three traits: socially liberal, resistant to change and empathic. The more empathic and less resistant to change, the more liberal, with empathy usually being dominant over resistance to change.

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Old 01-10-2019, 05:34 AM
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For the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root.
Well, there's your problem. Even if this were true for people overall, you can't assume this holds for all groups regardless of politics. Liberals may, in fact, be the set of people for whom this is not true.

But I'm not a liberal, so won't speak for them.

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Old 01-10-2019, 05:43 AM
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IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:03 AM
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You might find this chart about how the right perceive how the left see them (from this article) of interest.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it's how they see it. As advertisers say, the perception is the reality.

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Old 01-10-2019, 06:56 AM
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IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:03 AM
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You might find this chart about how the right perceive how the left see them (from this article) of interest.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it's how they see it. As advertisers say, the perception is the reality.
Can you help us out with a hint of what we might find interesting about this? Is it political or philosophical? It mostly seems like a psychological/psychiatric issue to me.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:23 AM
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Can you help us out with a hint of what we might find interesting about this? Is it political or philosophical? It mostly seems like a psychological/psychiatric issue to me.
It is clearly a chart of what conservative White men are frightened of based on variation from themselves.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:45 AM
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Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Then why did most liberal people I know have liberal parents?

My son, hopefully, will be a liberal when he grows up, and to a large degree, it will be because we raised him right. I don't think we "indoctrinated" him, but I don't think that most conservative parents indoctrinate their children, either. They just expose them to their own opinions during their formative years, the same way we did.

And children are achingly aware of their parents' beliefs; after all, we're the most important people in their worlds.

Look, I know we all want to think of ourselves as great independent thinkers, but in the end, we're all largely products of our environment. Ask any psychologist, sociologist or anthropologist - the vast majority of them will agree with me.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:15 AM
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It is clearly a chart of what conservative White men are frightened of based on variation from themselves.
It is how they perceive matters. And, far from the equality Liberals profess to preach, they find themselves at the bottom of the heap. One only has to look at threads like this one and this one to validate that.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
It is how they perceive matters. And, far from the equality Liberals profess to preach, they find themselves at the bottom of the heap. One only has to look at threads like this one and this one to validate that.
The chart is how the fantasy liberals that live in Sean Hannity's head characterize the world. It has little to do with the real world. That sometimes one can find random anonymous liberals screaming obscenities at conservatives does nothing to support this fantasy.
  #38  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:37 AM
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Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Of course not. Normal people let the public schools indoctrinate their children.

Liberals will usually get quizzical stares when encountering non-political folks. They won’t argue with them. They just internalize that the liberal rejects human nature and keep it moving. I wouldn’t say liberals are outcasts in society but I would guess they go through life feeling a bit alienated.

This is probably why they sequester themselves in like-minded communities and institutions. I see no problem with that, but the problem comes in when they try to control the rest of society and wield power through the various institutions they control.

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently. They permit different clothing, music (in some cases), and food, but that is about it. Everyone must engage in a stilted and managed social democracy or else there is oppression and inequality.

Many liberals are also against fun. This is the wowzer Mencken talked about. Uptight progressive types. This sets them apart from society to a degree.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-10-2019 at 08:41 AM.
  #39  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:43 AM
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Of course not. Normal people let the public schools indoctrinate their children.

Liberals will usually get quizzical stares when encountering non-political folks. They won’t argue with them. They just internalize that the liberal rejects human nature and keep it moving. I wouldn’t say liberals are outcasts in society but I would guess they go through life feeling a bit alienated.

This is probably why they sequester themselves in like-minded communities and institutions. I see no problem with that, but the problem comes in when they try to control the rest of society and wield power through the various institutions they control.

“Live and let live” is the most bizarre phrase in the English language for most liberals. They cannot imagine allowing anyone anywhere to live differently. They permit different clothing, music (in some cases), and food, but that is about it. Everyone must engage in a stilted and managed social democracy or else there is oppression and inequality.

Many liberals are also against fun. This is the wowzer Mencken talked about. Uptight progressive types. This sets them apart from society to a degree.
Your psychic abilities (or maybe they're fantasies about millions of strangers that have nothing to do with reality?) continue to delight and amaze!
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:49 AM
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Your psychic abilities (or maybe they're fantasies about millions of strangers that have nothing to do with reality?) continue to delight and amaze!
Based on actions not thoughts.

I did guess they are a bit alienated based on personal anecdotal observation, but that’s as far as I go.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Nah. Political indoctrination happens mainly in conservative families. Most of those children will go on to become conservative. When they meet people who aren't conservative, they assume those people have been indoctrinated like them, just in an opposite way. Or, some people (like me) will go heterodox when life experience intrudes on the imagined worldview.

In reality, normal people don't run their households like a political education camp. Some children of those households will become liberals, some will be conservative, and they might take hints from their parents beliefs (if they are aware of them).
Do you have a cite that children raised by liberals are more likely to become conservative than children raised by conservatives are to become liberal? I would think the exact opposite largely because younger people tend to skew liberal. That would imply to me (though it's not a guarantee) that children of conservatives are more likely to become liberal than vice versa.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:50 AM
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Then why did most liberal people I know have liberal parents?
You seem to subscribe to the "tabula rasa" theory, in that a child is a blank slate to be filled in by their upbringing and environment. Could it be just as likely an inherited trait?

While I agree that upbringing and environment are a factor, I also strongly believe that there is a "born that way" factor. This is supported for me by brain science.

https://www.businessinsider.com/psyc...iberals-2018-2

So, I reject many premises of the OP. I don't agree that many people "develop" a political leaning based on experiences, instead they find reinforcement in ideas that align with their innate propensities. The notion that some definable percentage of white people feel rejected from society and therefore "adopt" liberal philosophies suggests a causation, whereas it is more likely that this is a case of correlation is not causation. Moreover, does the OP have any evidence to suggest that this portion of white people has reported that they feel rejected by society?
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Based on actions not thoughts.
The actions of these fantastical creations certainly sound terrible, and I stand with you against these fictional creatures. We will fight them together!

And I'm sure you were only judging these non-existent apparitions based on actions -- otherwise why would you use phrases like "They cannot imagine..."? That's definitely a description of an action.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-10-2019 at 08:57 AM.
  #44  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
You seem to subscribe to the "tabula rasa" theory, in that a child is a blank slate to be filled in by their upbringing and environment. Could it be just as likely an inherited trait?

While I agree that upbringing and environment are a factor, I also strongly believe that there is a "born that way" factor. This is supported for me by brain science.

https://www.businessinsider.com/psyc...iberals-2018-2
That's just another way of saying "people who disagree with me are genetically inferior". As a liberal, I refuse to endorse such an theory. When you say that people are physically incapable of changing their opinions or their behavior, then the only way to solve the problem they pose is to eliminate them.

Last edited by Alessan; 01-10-2019 at 09:00 AM.
  #45  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:13 AM
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... I'm assuming many, if not most, people's politics are motivated by self interest at root. ...
Likely true not only for politics but for all behavior, but of course how our actions impact how we feel about ourselves (proud, satisfied, embarrassed, disgusted, whatever) is part of that self-interest.

I see more evidence that current conservatives are more motivated by a sense of rejection by society. That's the motivation/appeal behind the the drive to take it "back" to make it "great again" ... they feel they have been rejected by the mainstream which previously embraced them. Rejection leads less to empathy and compassion than to resentment and anger. Empathy comes not from being in a state but from being able to imagine the world from that state's perspective.

It is when one is afraid for one's own future and one's own status in the future, when one feels rejected by society at large, that empathy for others is often in shortest supply. A person who is hurting from rejection is not the best person to go to for empathy about your feeling rejected. OTOH that secure white cis hetero male who does not perceive any rejection and who feels secure in his status can more easily afford the self-interest of feeling good about himself, or at least not bad about himself, by doing the right things for others as well. The marginal cost of a few more dollars in taxes is less than the marginal gain in reduced self-disgust at not having a good answer to the question of "If I am only for myself then what am I?"
  #46  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:28 AM
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That's just another way of saying "people who disagree with me are genetically inferior". As a liberal, I refuse to endorse such an theory. When you say that people are physically incapable of changing their opinions or their behavior, then the only way to solve the problem they pose is to eliminate them.
Not at all. It is saying "people who disagree with me are different, and here is why". It is recognizing that I am as equally incapable of changing as someone who is different (not saying I am totally incapable, but that I am incapable TO THE SAME DEGREE.)
  #47  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:28 AM
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IMHO, people in this thread are overthinking things - most people are liberals for the exact same reason that most people are conservatives: because they were raised that way.
My brothers and I were raised in the same household and exist in three different points of the political spectrum.

My mother is a definite unionist. Her sister is a Catexist.

My father and his siblings ranged from conservative independentist (married to a rabidly leftist independentist, daughter to a conservative independentist) to anarchoid to retrograde.

And I'm reasonably sure each of those groups was raised in the same house, by the same parents, attended the same schools...
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Last edited by Nava; 01-10-2019 at 09:30 AM.
  #48  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:51 AM
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My brothers and I were raised in the same household and exist in three different points of the political spectrum.

My mother is a definite unionist. Her sister is a Catexist.

My father and his siblings ranged from conservative independentist (married to a rabidly leftist independentist, daughter to a conservative independentist) to anarchoid to retrograde.

And I'm reasonably sure each of those groups was raised in the same house, by the same parents, attended the same schools...
I specifically said "most", not "all". Obviously I know plenty of families like yours, too, but they're still the minority - like, 25%? No more than that.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:54 AM
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Most of the families I know are of the varied type; those who are not tend to falll into the "apathetic" basket. Maybe it's linked to that reaction I had when I first heard the line about "two Jews, three opinions": "you guys need two for that?" Cultural differences.

Last edited by Nava; 01-10-2019 at 09:55 AM.
  #50  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:55 AM
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As to the OP, remember that there were plenty of white guys in 1920s Germany who also felt like they were rejected from society (whether they actually were is debatable). Liberals, they weren't.
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