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Old 09-22-2017, 02:08 PM
Buck Godot Buck Godot is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 4,504
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
No, not like that.

Right now, if you access Wikipedia via your data plan on your phone, the information you receive from Wikipedia counts against your data plan. I guess Wikipedia tried to make a deal with ISPs or something (I'm not sure of this), where any user that accessed Wikipedia via their data plan did not have the information from Wikipedia count against their data plan. But net neutrality prevented this deal. So, I guess that gets turned into "If you favor net neutrality, you are against free access to Wikipedia" or something like that.
Given that accessing wikipedia is one of the least data heavy usages I can imagine, and would be a rounding error in terms of most phone's data plans, I don't see why they would bother.

But if this sort of thing was deemed to be in the public good, the best way to handle it would seem to be to have generally Net Neutrality and then legislate certain carefully spelled out exceptions (say allowing deals with non-profits like Wikipedia) Rather than abolish net neutrality and then play to whack-a-mole trying to legislate all of the creative ways that ISPs might find to fleece their customers.
Old 09-22-2017, 07:35 PM
voltaire voltaire is offline
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,803
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Well iamthewalrus(:3='s post was firmly declarative ("Facebook comes in and makes a deal", "It definitely gives Facebook an advantage"), referencing this as something that has actually happened "in developing countries", so I'm curious about where and when it happened.
Facebook's "Free Basics" initiative is probably what was being referenced. Here's a description straight from the source.
Old 09-22-2017, 09:03 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is online now
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,246
Walrus, here's a legal way ISPs can give you what you want.

Let's suppose you subscribe to a 2 megabit connection from your ISP. You are playing a realtime game that consumes 1.5 megabits of UDP traffic. The ISP's network is becoming overloaded, which will happen at any consumer ISP some percentage of the time. (no consumer ISP can afford to purchase enough capacity for 100% of subscribers to all peg their connections at 100%. In theory, some very expensive business class connections offer such guaranteed bandwidth)

The ISP has several ways it can throttle when this happens. One valid way it can do it is throttle by percentage of subscribed connections. Say it has enough bandwidth where if every active user is throttled to a cap at 1/2 their max transmit speed, the ISP's network will be at 99% utilization instead of 100%. (and packets stop being dropped at the weak point)

So since your connection is throttled to 1 megabit from 2, you're hosed, and your game becomes unplayable.

You call the ISP and pay more money. Now you have a 20 megabit connection.

Next day, the ISP throttles everyone to 49%. You still have almost 10 megabits remaining, and are still only playing that game, and everything works smoothly.

This is a legal way for the ISP to support low latency connections but still maintain net neutrality. All traffic is being treated equally, but when not all traffic is being carried, all users are being throttled by a percentage of the service package they paid for, and any dropped data is done without any consideration of the destination.

The other way, which is not popular now but would also be legal, would be for ISPs to offer "guaranteed" bandwidth. They are promising that the first 2 megabits or whatever of packets you are sending will get top priority on their network and not be dropped on the ISP's portion of the network. Then you just need to set your router to prioritize your game traffic, always sending it first, and there you go.

Last edited by SamuelA; 09-22-2017 at 09:06 PM.
Old 09-23-2017, 09:35 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 10,823
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
And while you keep going on about efficiency you have not shown that the system is broken and needs this efficiency. Again, the system has been working fine till now. Not seeing how your efficiencies will improve things for me, the end user.
Ok. I don't think that the system with net neutrality is broken, so if that is your standard for considering other options, then I'm probably not going to convince you.

Is there anything that you think is over regulated, or not quite optimally regulated? If you were arguing for some changes that you thought might make that better, would the existing system have to be broken, or is it enough that it's just not as good as it could be?

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
I have never before heard of this happening and now I'm curious about it: where has this happened? When? How? How do you prevent free Wikipedia access? Why would net neutrality proponents shut down access to wikipedia?
Here you go: Wikipedia Zero. Active in a number of countries. Blocked in Chile, according to that page, and challenged by the EFF and other Net Neutrality advocates (for what it's worth, I donate money to the EFF and think they're great. I just don't see 100% eye-to-eye with them on this issue)

Facebook has a similar program in some countries for free access to Facebook.

As for why they challenge it, well, it clearly violates net neutrality. So, there you go. In my opinion, it violates a part of net neutrality that isn't that important, and that we could do without.

The first Kindle actually had access to the entire internet, although slow and through an awkward text-based browser. I remember using it on international trips to send email and check Facebook once upon a time.


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