Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:37 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,682
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I meant potlatch after all; basically the idea that you're SO rich that you can afford to effectively burn money buying an electric car vs. the less expensive conventionally powered luxury car.
Man, you don't understand electric cars today.
  #102  
Old 10-23-2019, 04:03 PM
Omar Little's Avatar
Omar Little is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Within
Posts: 13,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
Yeah, I guess the United Auto Workers would put some sort of prohibition on their parking lot.
  #103  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:47 PM
dtilque is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: My own private Nogero
Posts: 7,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I meant potlatch after all; basically the idea that you're SO rich that you can afford to effectively burn money buying an electric car vs. the less expensive conventionally powered luxury car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Man, you don't understand electric cars today.
True and also doesn't understand potlatch. Potlatch is not conspicuous consumption. It's giving away excess stuff to other people.

As far as EVs, when you figure the total cost of owning them, not just the sticker price, you'll find that a more expensive EV can be about the same as a less expensive ICE car. It has to do with electricity being less expensive than gas per mile driven and generally less maintainance required for an EV.
  #104  
Old 10-24-2019, 10:19 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
True and also doesn't understand potlatch. Potlatch is not conspicuous consumption. It's giving away excess stuff to other people.

As far as EVs, when you figure the total cost of owning them, not just the sticker price, you'll find that a more expensive EV can be about the same as a less expensive ICE car. It has to do with electricity being less expensive than gas per mile driven and generally less maintainance required for an EV.
I was meaning potlatch in the sense of destroying wealth to show off how wealthy you are.

From Dictionary.com:

Quote:
1. (among American Indians of the northern Pacific coast, especially the Kwakiutl) a ceremonial festival at which gifts are bestowed on the guests and property is destroyed by its owner in a show of wealth that the guests later attempt to surpass.
And it doesn't matter really if electric cars really are cheaper in total cost of ownership; a Model S is $71k. Even if it's cheaper than a gasoline car over its lifetime, few people can make the downpayment and monthly payments on a $71k car. And even the cheap Teslas are more expensive up front than the comparable Fords or Chevys.

Why people might key a Tesla is all about perception, not reality. That's what you're missing here- it's totally a case of sour grapes IMO, because someone has the cash to not only afford a nice car, but rather than buy the $55k Mercedes, they buy a $71k Tesla... presumably because they have money to burn. Some people get really torqued and bitter about that kind of thing.
  #105  
Old 10-24-2019, 11:14 AM
StraightTalk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Are you joking? He's being sued for defamation right now and in his defense, he said "I'm a fucking idiot" for calling some random dude a pedophile.

Of course he's a jerk. A huge jerk.
Not joking. I'm just not not up to date on everything Elon Musk.

I wasn't implying that he wasn't a jerk. I just didn't know why he was.
  #106  
Old 10-24-2019, 11:20 AM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,682
Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightTalk View Post
Not joking. I'm just not not up to date on everything Elon Musk.

I wasn't implying that he wasn't a jerk. I just didn't know why he was.
I should not have been presumptuous. Apologies.
  #107  
Old 10-24-2019, 11:39 AM
StraightTalk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
I should not have been presumptuous. Apologies.
Accepted! <thumbs up>
  #108  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:30 PM
PastTense is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 8,132
Updating this thread, look at this example of what Tesla did:
Tesla Remotely Removes Autopilot Features From Customer's Used Tesla Without Any Notice
Quote:
Let’s recap a little bit at this point: A Model S with Enhanced Autopilot (which includes the Summon feature) and FSD “capability” is sold at auction, a dealer buys it, after the sale to the dealer Tesla checks in on the car and decides that it shouldn’t have Autopilot or FSD “capability,” dealer sells car to customer based on the specifications they were aware the car had (and were shown on the window sticker, and confirmed via a screenshot from the car’s display showing the options), and later, when the customer upgrades the car’s software, Autopilot and FSD disappear.
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-...=1580941196331

So none of you would feel hostile toward Tesla if this happened to you?
  #109  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:37 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
So none of you would feel hostile toward Tesla if this happened to you?
What are you on about? The thread is about Tesla owners receiving hostility from non-Tesla owners.

Plenty of Tesla owners have every right to be angry at the company for whatever reason, just as every car owner has the right to be angry at the respective automaker. There's no automaker out there without some deeply unhappy customers.

Tesla seems to be in the wrong here; not for disabling Autopilot but for mistakenly advertising to the intermediary that the car was supposed to have it. Had that not been the case, Tesla would have been in the right to disable AP, and the dealer would have been on the hook for compensating the final purchaser. It really does look like Tesla screwed up here, though I suppose it depends on the exact terms of the auction.
  #110  
Old 02-08-2020, 04:03 PM
BrickBat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: US
Posts: 606
Just heard about this one a few days ago from a Tesla owner at work:

He said he started seeing clear residue blotches on on it that, when he tried to scrape it off with his fingernail, felt like tree sap. but as there were no trees, he thought....spit? He reviewed the in-car camera records, and sure enough, another employee was seen spitting on his car over a several day period. He grabbed a police officer and they proceeded to find said spitter. They did, and he was confronted. The man's answer as to why he spit on the car... "I don't like Teslas". No charges pressed. Guy never apologized but was given notice that next time will land him in dutch.

We ( there were a few of us as he told us of the events ) asked who was the spitter? He just replied something like "I won't say who, but....Angry old white guy"
  #111  
Old 02-10-2020, 11:14 AM
Kovitlac is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka View Post
I have no idea what planet the people in this topic are living on but ANYTIME I see anti-Tesla stuff anywhere on the news or on the internet it's always from left-wing people who just hate Elon Musk and his massive wealth and see him as a modern day robber baron. It's like saying the only people who hate on Uber are Republicans angry it's reducing pollution by taking cars off the road.
But, but if I can't blame Republicans for everything under the sun, who CAN I blame??…
  #112  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:35 PM
BrotherCadfael is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 10,433
There was a time when the cell phone was the hallmark of the "rich" yuppie. There was a similar hatedom for the phones and their users.



That time is long gone. It will happen for Teslas (and other EVs) as well in a few years.



(Priuses went through a similar evolution - remember the "Toyonda Pious" from South Park, emitting great clouds of Smug?)
  #113  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:07 PM
MacTech is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 6,668
As a diesel driver (VW Golf TDI) I think “rolling coal” is stupid, diesel is too expensive to waste on Teslas, I like Teslas, priuses? Yes I find them bloody annoying, but it’s easier just to laugh at the bloody pathetic things
__________________
Freakazoid> dumb, Dumb, DUMB!, NEVER tell the villain how to trap you in a cage!
Gutierrez> You probably shouldn't have helped us build it either...
F!> I know, DUMB!
  #114  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:10 AM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrickBat View Post
Just heard about this one a few days ago from a Tesla owner at work:
That story makes me happy and sad. It really is amazing how the mere existence of something can drive people to such anger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael View Post
It will happen for Teslas (and other EVs) as well in a few years.
Maybe in the more backwards parts of America. Elsewhere, we already passed through that phase years ago. Teslas are just normal cars now, suitable for just about anyone. They're still a little expensive, but not outrageously so in moderately high cost-of-living areas.
  #115  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:18 AM
RioRico is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 1,656
Tesla-hate thoughts:

I've never seen a Tesla in this conservative county though I'm sure the two superchargers near the county seat (pop. 4500) serve visitors to the casino, wineries, and uphill resorts. None will "hate" them, because they leave money here. The most commonly-seen EVs are NEVs (fancy golf carts). Their usually gimpy owners are not despised so long as they courteously stay in their lanes. Apple hate is something else - a tradition for us since the Apple II.

Tesla echoes history. Until Ford's Model T, personal motor vehicles were rightly seen as elitist toys. Woodrow Wilson warned in 1906 that cars would provoke unrest: “Nothing has spread socialistic feeling in this country more than the use of automobiles. To the countryman they are a picture of arrogance of wealth, with all its independence and carelessness.” But I don't see Tesla inciting socialist revolution.

Should Big Oil fear Teslas and other EVs? Yes, much petrol goes to fuel personal vehicles. Yes, zero or minimal emission vehicles will be mandatory in the industrialized world soon. No, Big Oil won't stop that. To keep fuel station pumps ringing-up sales, it's in Big Oil's interest to push development of cheap, quiet, minimal-emission steam cars burning any petrol product, even charcoal lighter fluid if WalMart is open and Shell isn't.

When will Tesla offer as much driver legroom (I'm 6'5") as our Kia Sorrento or Mercedes Sprinter? Wee little cars are OK for wee little folk. Prius? Ha.

Last edited by RioRico; 02-11-2020 at 03:22 AM.
  #116  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:43 AM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
When will Tesla offer as much driver legroom (I'm 6'5") as our Kia Sorrento or Mercedes Sprinter? Wee little cars are OK for wee little folk.
You seem to be under the impression that Teslas are small cars. They aren't. The Model 3 is only a few inches shorter than your Sorento (185" vs. 189"). It has a trunk, but no third row, so it's likely that it has more legroom than the Sorento. Certainly my 6'4" friend does not complain. Even in the back seat he's reasonably comfortable.

If you want something larger, the Model X is 198". Sorry, nothing Sprinter-sized yet.
  #117  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:41 AM
Mallard is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 421
If a person wants to own a Tesla or any other odd ball car, that's up to them, IMHO. I don't know why anyone should be "upset" about it, it's not hurting anyone else.
  #118  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:50 AM
gregorio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
Tesla-hate thoughts:

To keep fuel station pumps ringing-up sales, it's in Big Oil's interest to push development of cheap, quiet, minimal-emission steam cars burning any petrol product, even charcoal lighter fluid if WalMart is open and Shell isn't..
Or, roll out charging stations to the vast real estate holdings they already own. Seems almost forward thinking.

https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/perso...charge-network
  #119  
Old 02-11-2020, 04:19 PM
BrickBat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: US
Posts: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
That story makes me happy and sad. It really is amazing how the mere existence of something can drive people to such anger.
I think it's the culmination of being so hyper-partisan that one's own identity is shaped by what they hate.

I remember a phone conversation I had with my father not too long ago. He's a hard-right, tea party conservative living in a crimson red area. I told him my 17 year old gasoline lawn mower has reached the end of it's usefulness, despite all the repairs I've done to it, and that I pulled the trigger and bought an electric mower. He groaned and scoffed in disappointment, and I knew where he was going with this. To lighten the mood ( and bust his balls a little ) I said "Easy there...it's not as if I've traded my Camaro in for a Prius!" It was almost as if he needed me to reassure him I wasn't going to dress in tie-dye and sandals, and eat granola as well. I was just using hyperbole, but I don't think he knew that.

Having a partisan filter from which to view everything seems exhausting, but some seem to thrive on it.
  #120  
Old 02-11-2020, 04:27 PM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 13,484
They just want to be happy like everyone else.

Failing that, they're willing to settle for making as many other people as possible be just as miserable as they are, if only for a moment.
  #121  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:25 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrickBat View Post
Having a partisan filter from which to view everything seems exhausting, but some seem to thrive on it.
That one seems straightforward: a partisan filter gives you easy answers for any problem you throw at it, no matter how difficult or subtle. The only downside is some modest cognitive dissonance, which is avoidable if you simply choose not to think through anything at depth. And it's very easy to avoid deep thinking if you're willing to watch Fox News for 14 hours a day.

Fortunately, defending Tesla is also pretty easy. They aren't slow, ugly, weenie mobiles. And they aren't imports. My car was built about 15 miles from where I live. And my parents have learned the value of plug-in vehicles via their PHEV Fusion, which they only bought due to a cheap lease, but now brag about how they only buy gas every couple of months.

They still claim that anthropogenic climate change is a librul hoax, but do see the value in not paying for gas. So I guess that's something.
  #122  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:31 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrickBat View Post
I pulled the trigger and bought an electric mower.
Don't run over the extension cord.
  #123  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:35 AM
RioRico is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 1,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Don't run over the extension cord.
Our lawnmower, weedwhacker, and snowblower are all electric. Avoiding extension cords is old habit now. None are rideable so I won't gain EV hatred taking them on roads.
  #124  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:53 AM
BrickBat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: US
Posts: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Don't run over the extension cord.
No worries. It's battery powered and the battery still has plenty left over after mowing my 1/4 acre. I love it: It's got enough balls to much through thick grass, and it's quiet, quiet, quiet.
  #125  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:09 PM
Machine Elf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Challenger Deep
Posts: 12,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrickBat View Post
I told him my 17 year old gasoline lawn mower has reached the end of it's usefulness, despite all the repairs I've done to it, and that I pulled the trigger and bought an electric mower.
This is about to be me. My mower is 18 years old, and the wheels are literally about to fall off. Corded leaf blower and trimmer have always been a pain in the ass, and I'm tired of mower noise and breathing small-engine exhaust. Planning to buy a battery mower, trimmer, and leaf blower this spring, and looking forward to better health and sanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove
They still claim that anthropogenic climate change is a librul hoax, but do see the value in not paying for gas. So I guess that's something.
Hard-core conservatives ought to appreciate EVs for their ability to reduce national dependence on imported petroleum, allowing us to send less money to countries that may be funding terrorist activities.
  #126  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:20 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
Hard-core conservatives ought to appreciate EVs for their ability to reduce national dependence on imported petroleum, allowing us to send less money to countries that may be funding terrorist activities.
How is the electricity generated? There are two nuclear reactors in central Arkansas.
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l

Last edited by carnivorousplant; 02-12-2020 at 01:20 PM.
  #127  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:25 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 8,177
Question on electric cars.

Is there an electrocution hazard if a person is charging their car and its raining or the area around the charging station has about 1-3 inches of standing water?
  #128  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:41 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Question on electric cars.

Is there an electrocution hazard if a person is charging their car and its raining or the area around the charging station has about 1-3 inches of standing water?
It is low voltage direct current, much less dangerous that higher voltage alternating current. Thomas Edison favored DC, and made a big deal that Westinghouse favored AC. Speaking about the AC powered electric chair, Edison was fond of saying, "The prisoner was Westinghoused to death this morning."
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l
  #129  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:42 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 12,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
It is low voltage direct current, much less dangerous that higher voltage alternating current. Thomas Edison favored DC, and made a big deal that Westinghouse favored AC. Speaking about the AC powered electric chair, Edison was fond of saying, "The prisoner was Westinghoused to death this morning."
just don't lick the terminals.
  #130  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:43 PM
Machine Elf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Challenger Deep
Posts: 12,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
How is the electricity generated? There are two nuclear reactors in central Arkansas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr..._United_States

Electricity in the US is generated by a number of methods: coal, wind, nuclear, solar, hydroelectric, natural gas all come to mind.

Petroleum combustion accounts for just 0.6% of US electricity production.
  #131  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:26 PM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
It is low voltage direct current, much less dangerous that higher voltage alternating current.
Only fast chargers (L3) use DC, and it's certainly not low-voltage. The Tesla superchargers are 480v fast DC chargers.

EVs can also charge directly of AC via the an on-board rectifier (most have them). Most EV charging is done by plugging into an ordinary 240v AC receptacle.

All charging connectors have some kind of digital handshake system that does not allow the charging current to flow until the connector is fully inserted and locked. The cables are quite beefy and designed for outdoor use. Of course, there should be GFCI protection on the circuit as well.
  #132  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:25 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr..._United_States

Electricity in the US is generated by a number of methods: coal, wind, nuclear, solar, hydroelectric, natural gas all come to mind.

Petroleum combustion accounts for just 0.6% of US electricity production.
Much less than I thought, but coal generates 30% of electrical power in the USA, and natural gas, better for the environment, another 30%.

Friedo, what is the voltage of ev batteries?
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l
  #133  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:55 PM
Scoobysnax is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Much less than I thought, but coal generates 30% of electrical power in the USA, and natural gas, better for the environment, another 30%.

Friedo, what is the voltage of ev batteries?
Teslas operate at 350-375V DC. The new Porsche Taycan operates at 800V DC. the higher voltage lets them use thinner wiring.
  #134  
Old 02-12-2020, 04:17 PM
dtilque is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: My own private Nogero
Posts: 7,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Much less than I thought, but coal generates 30% of electrical power in the USA,
Coal power plants have been retiring left and right over the past 20 years and virtually no new ones have been built to replace them. That's going to continue for the next ten years or so until we're down to a few that will be difficult to get rid of.

Quote:
and natural gas, better for the environment, another 30%.
Gas isn't actually that much better, environment-wise. It doesn't produce ash and release heavy metals like mercury, so that's good. But because some of the gas (which is mostly methane) escapes before being combusted, it's not that much better in terms of carbon equivalent. And it's not like they can make the combustion more efficient and thus reduce the methane. The gas escapes at various places along the path before it gets to the burner.
  #135  
Old 02-12-2020, 04:25 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobysnax View Post
Teslas operate at 350-375V DC. The new Porsche Taycan operates at 800V DC. the higher voltage lets them use thinner wiring.
Thanks.
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l
  #136  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:01 PM
carrps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I have a Prius, and I have no problem going 80 (which is keeping up with traffic) down I5 on the way to LA. And I still get great gas mileage doing it.
What I do notice is that some people think I will go slowly, but they learn otherwise pretty quickly.
Someday I'm going to finish my song "Hot Rod Prius" to the tune of "Hot Rod Lincoln."

Now I live in a place with so many Prii that in 2008 someone said that they were going to put a McCain sticker on their silver Prius to distinguish it from all the Silver Prii with Obama stickers in just about every parking lot. I know what he was talking about.
I had an Insight and used to regularly make the trip from LA to SF (actually, Marin) on I5. I could usually do it in about 5.5 hours (excluding the hour or so I spent having a nice big steak at Harris Ranch). I can still remember refueling in a gas station in Vallejo and having a local coming over and checking out my car. He was so excited when I told him I still had about a quarter tank left, and I hadn't had to stop and refuel at all on the road. It was kinda cute.
  #137  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:45 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
Updating this thread, look at this example of what Tesla did:
Tesla turned Autopilot back on for the guy. As best I can tell, the only real mistake here was in how Tesla advertised the car to the intermediary. It's in their right to disable AP if the car wasn't supposed to have it, but they should restore it or reimburse the dealer if it was advertised as a feature for the auction.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017