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Old 02-14-2020, 02:26 PM
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Adult Woman Has Sex With Teen Boy, Charged With Statutory Sodomy - What Does That Mean?


(Don't need answer fast)

Missouri woman charged with statutory sodomy for sex act with teenage boy.

In this case, does that mean that he penetrated her anally? Or that she penetrated him (presumably with a strap-on or something)? Or does the law not specify?
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:28 PM
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Could just be oral sex.

He he penetrated her anally.

Or, what you said.


Quote:
Definition of sodomy

: anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:28 PM
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Oral sex is usually included in "Sodomy". My guess is she gave him a BJ.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:29 PM
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From your link

"Giesler was accused of a having three sexual encounters with a 16-year-old boy, including performing a sex act on him and engaging in sexual intercourse twice in her home in Ste. Genevieve County, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported."

Sodomy, in this context, usually refers to oral sex.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
(Don't need answer fast)

Missouri woman charged with statutory sodomy for sex act with teenage boy.

In this case, does that mean that he penetrated her anally? Or that she penetrated him (presumably with a strap-on or something)? Or does the law not specify?
It depends on the state. Each state has specific legal definitions in their code. It could mean oral sex. Or in the case of the age difference being the factor and not consent it could be acts done to her.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:38 PM
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According to Missouri law sodomy is deviate sexual intercourse which is defined as
Quote:
Deviate sexual intercourse: any act involving the genitals of one person and the hand, mouth, tongue, or anus of another person or a sexual act involving the penetration, however slight, of the penis, female genitalia, or the anus by a finger, instrument or object done for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of any person or for the purpose of terrorizing the victim.
My state does not have a separate sodomy law. It’s either sexual assault (rape) or it’s not.

Last edited by Loach; 02-14-2020 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:41 PM
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Missouri law on "statutory sodomy":

Quote:
566.062. Statutory sodomy and attempt to commit, first degree, penalties. — 1. A person commits the offense of statutory sodomy in the first degree if he or she has deviate sexual intercourse with another person who is less than fourteen years of age.
Missouri legal definition of "deviate sexual intercourse":

Quote:
566.010 (3). Deviate sexual intercourse: any act involving the genitals of one person and the hand, mouth, tongue, or anus of another person or a sexual act involving the penetration, however slight, of the penis, female genitalia, or the anus by a finger, instrument or object done for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of any person or for the purpose of terrorizing the victim.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:54 PM
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So Missouri has outlawed foreplay as deviate sexual intercourse.
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Old 02-14-2020, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazpacho View Post
So Missouri has outlawed foreplay as deviate sexual intercourse.
Essentially, the entirety of "third base," as well as any penetration other than PIV.

I wouldn't be surprised if most old-school sodomy laws are like that.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-14-2020 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:10 PM
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So Missouri has outlawed foreplay as deviate sexual intercourse.
I mean, if you're with a kid 14 and under, yeah.
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gazpacho View Post
So Missouri has outlawed foreplay as deviate sexual intercourse.
No, Missouri hasn't outlawed deviate sexual intercourse at all, except in specific circumstances. That section is just the definitions; "sexual intercourse" is defined a few paragraphs down.

The specific circumstances in which sexual intercourse (deviate or otherwise) is illegal are defined later in the chapter. For example, RSMo 566.060 criminalizes deviate sexual intercourse if the other party "is incapacitated, incapable of consent, or lacks the capacity to consent" or is forcibly compelled.
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
According to Missouri law sodomy is deviate sexual intercourse [...]
This is such a weird usage of the word “deviate.” I think of that word as a verb, but here it’s clearly being used in the MO statutes as an adjective. I’d expect the verb to be “deviant” rather than “deviate.”

I’m aware that legal terms often deviate from both colloquial and formal English (in non legal contexts) with terms like “monies” and “ejectment.”

I’m curious: is “deviate” as an adjectival form of “deviate” an example of legal jargon or simply a usage error by some Missouri legislator that became enshrined as law? Or is there some other explanation?

(If it’s legal jargon, I’d imagine one of he attorneys on the board could answer off the top of their head. But I’m definitely not trying to hijack the thread or ask anyone to take on a research project).
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:27 PM
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Missed the edit window. The second sentence in my post should read:

I’d expect the adjective to be “deviant” rather than “deviate.”
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by EdelweissPirate View Post
This is such a weird usage of the word “deviate.” I think of that word as a verb, but here it’s clearly being used in the MO statutes as an adjective. I’d expect the verb to be “deviant” rather than “deviate.”
Dictionary.com says it can be used as an adjective, and even a noun:
Quote:
adjective
characterized by deviation or departure from an accepted norm or standard, as of behavior.

noun
a person or thing that departs from the accepted norm or standard.
a person whose sexual behavior departs from the norm in a way that is considered socially or morally unacceptable.
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:55 PM
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If the boy in question is 16 years old, how do the Missouri statutory sodomy laws (which apply to a child under 14) apply? Or does that just mean that he's 16 now, but the acts occurred several years ago? If so, the writing is sloppy: If the story hadn't come out until four years from now, nobody would say that she was accused of "sex acts with a 20-year-old".

For an example of "deviate" used as a noun, by the way, a table of random numbers will often also include a table of "normal deviates".
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
No, Missouri hasn't outlawed deviate sexual intercourse at all, except in specific circumstances. That section is just the definitions; "sexual intercourse" is defined a few paragraphs down.

The specific circumstances in which sexual intercourse (deviate or otherwise) is illegal are defined later in the chapter. For example, RSMo 566.060 criminalizes deviate sexual intercourse if the other party "is incapacitated, incapable of consent, or lacks the capacity to consent" or is forcibly compelled.
Missouri did criminalize any act of "deviate sexual intercourse" by same-sex couples until 2006 (just a Wikipedia cite). I don't know for sure, but based on the wording of the statute, Missouri may have originally criminalized "deviate sexual intercourse" generally, then later decided to restrict that criminalization to same-sex couples only, before finally (in the wake of Lawrence v. Texas) re-writing its laws to comply with U.S. Supreme Court precedent. (Which not all states have done; my own home state of Georgia still has a law "on the books" but unenforceable--Georgia Code 16-2-2 (a) (1)--which purports to criminalize "sodomy", defined as "any sexual act involving the sex organs of one person and the mouth or anus of another").


EdelweissPirate: "Deviate" as opposed to "deviant" does seem wrong to me, too, but it seems to be used in various states (Pennsylvania; Texas). But on the other hand, Oregon, to give one example, apparently uses "deviant".
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
If the boy in question is 16 years old, how do the Missouri statutory sodomy laws (which apply to a child under 14) apply?
If the boy in question was 16 (and the other person was at least 21), then the offense allegedly committed would be statutory sodomy in the second degree (566.064):
Quote:
A person commits the offense of statutory sodomy in the second degree if being twenty-one years of age or older, he or she has deviate sexual intercourse with another person who is less than seventeen years of age.
Whereas if the boy was under fourteen, it would be statutory sodomy in the first degree (566.062).
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazpacho View Post
So Missouri has outlawed foreplay as deviate sexual intercourse.
It seems to me that this post (if not the OP) and the following replies are equally "about" if and why when beyond oral sex, actual intercourses took place, that with an adult man and juvenile girl the word/crime/charge of "rape" would be used, and is not here.

I believe, but do not know, if oral sex on a woman (and/or the crime of consensual sex with a minor) without vaginal or anal penetration is a different act (even if in sentencing it is on a par with rape.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
Missouri did criminalize any act of "deviate sexual intercourse" by same-sex couples until 2006 (just a Wikipedia cite). I don't know for sure, but based on the wording of the statute, Missouri may have originally criminalized "deviate sexual intercourse" generally, then later decided to restrict that criminalization to same-sex couples only, before finally (in the wake of Lawrence v. Texas) re-writing its laws to comply with U.S. Supreme Court precedent. (Which not all states have done; my own home state of Georgia still has a law "on the books" but unenforceable--Georgia Code 16-2-2 (a) (1)--which purports to criminalize "sodomy", defined as "any sexual act involving the sex organs of one person and the mouth or anus of another").


EdelweissPirate: "Deviate" as opposed to "deviant" does seem wrong to me, too, but it seems to be used in various states (Pennsylvania; Texas). But on the other hand, Oregon, to give one example, apparently uses "deviant".
Correct. Those laws, in one form or another, have been on the books since the founding and in ye olde common law and were used to make homosexuality illegal.

All Lawrence did was hold that they could not be enforced against consenting adults acting in private in a non-commercial way. Nothing says that they cannot be enforced when done with minors or when it is non-consensual or in an act of prostitution.

And yes, it is "deviate" as in it deviates or is different from normal sexual intercourse.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:41 PM
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I believe, but do not know, if oral sex on a woman (and/or the crime of consensual sex with a minor) without vaginal or anal penetration is a different act (even if in sentencing it is on a par with rape.
Well, in my state at least, oral sex on a woman is considered penetration as a person's tongue penetrates the vagina.

My state has no crime of "rape." There is sexual assault and sexual abuse and varying degrees of each. Sexual assault is all forms of penetration, "however slight."

Sexual abuse is the touching of specified areas of the body (including female breasts, but not male breasts) "with the intent to gratify or arouse the sexual desire of any person."

The degrees of the crime are whether it was forcible, done when incapacitated, done with minors.
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:46 PM
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First: thanks to all those who responded to my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbh View Post
Dictionary.com says it can be used as an adjective, and even a noun:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
And yes, it is "deviate" as in it deviates or is different from normal sexual intercourse.
I didn’t ask whether “deviate” could ever be used as an adjective, nor did I wonder what such a word could possibly mean. I asked whether such a usage was legal jargon, a mishearing of “deviant” or something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
For an example of "deviate" used as a noun, by the way, a table of random numbers will often also include a table of "normal deviates".
Thanks for the counterexample!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
EdelweissPirate: "Deviate" as opposed to "deviant" does seem wrong to me, too, but it seems to be used in various states (Pennsylvania; Texas). But on the other hand, Oregon, to give one example, apparently uses "deviant".
Thanks for pointing that out!

Based on the responses thus far, it seems that the use of “deviant” for “deviate” is primarily (but not always) legal jargon.

But wait! A comparative literature professor has addressed this explicitly (if glibly). To wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brians
deviant / deviate
The technical term used by professionals to label someone whose behavior deviates from the norm is “deviate,” but if you want to tease a perv friend you may as well call him a “deviant”—that’s what almost everybody else says. In your sociology class, however, you might want to stick with “deviate.”
It seems to me that he adjectival/noun form of ”deviate” is non-colloquial professional jargon, but not exclusively legal jargon (as Chronos’ example suggests).

It seems a bit like “obligate,” which is usually a verb but can also be used as an adjective in technical contexts, such as a wildlife biologist describing an obligate carnivore.

The difference is that there’s no common-usage word “obligant.” Ironically, the word exists, but (AFAIK) seems to be primarily legal jargon (in the UK and maybe elsewhere).

Again, thanks to all who responded.

Last edited by EdelweissPirate; 02-15-2020 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
If the boy in question is 16 years old, how do the Missouri statutory sodomy laws (which apply to a child under 14) apply? Or does that just mean that he's 16 now, but the acts occurred several years ago? If so, the writing is sloppy: If the story hadn't come out until four years from now, nobody would say that she was accused of "sex acts with a 20-year-old".

For an example of "deviate" used as a noun, by the way, a table of random numbers will often also include a table of "normal deviates".
She was his assistant principal. In most states if the adult is in a position of authority (like teacher, school administrator, paraeducator, etc) statutory rape laws apply even if the student is over 18.
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:52 PM
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I don't get the rationale for making a deal. Much is made of preventing future victims by making her give up her teaching credentials, but wouldn't that have happened when she was convicted?

But last September a principal named Matt Lindsey got a similar deal (3 years probation) for an affair with a 16 year-old in the 1990s. So this doesn't seem to be a big issue in Missouri as far as judges are concerned.
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:49 AM
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Strictly speaking, I think the -ate suffix comes from the Latin past participle, while the -ant (or -ent) suffix comes from the present participle. So, sticking with deviation as our theme:

“Deviant” is from devians, meaning “deviating”; while

“Deviate” is from deviatus, meaning “deviated”.

So, to call someone a deviant implies that he is deviating at this moment, or (more usually) that he regularly or habitually deviates, while to call him a deviate implies that he deviated at a particular point in the past.

Both in the legal context, where we are prosecuting a specific crime which is necessarily a past event, and in the academic context, where we are frequently considering a study conducted in the past, or data which refers to past events. “deviate” might therefore find favour.

And the same goes for the adjectival use. What you are doing now, or what you habitually do, might be a deviant sexual practice, but a single specific sex act that is the subject of a trial or similar scrutiny might be deviate.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:42 AM
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I don't get the rationale for making a deal. Much is made of preventing future victims by making her give up her teaching credentials, but wouldn't that have happened when she was convicted?
I don't know Missouri's laws, but no, in most states there is nothing automatic about the revocation, and the state's licensing authority would have to go through an extensive and expensive process to revoke her credentials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epbrown01 View Post
But last September a principal named Matt Lindsey got a similar deal (3 years probation) for an affair with a 16 year-old in the 1990s. So this doesn't seem to be a big issue in Missouri as far as judges are concerned.
One thing to keep in mind is that the laws aren't ex post facto; the punishments available now for a crime committed in the 1990s are still what they would have been if he had been convicted back then, which isn't necessarily what he would face for the same crime committed in 2019.
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