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Old 08-02-2018, 08:24 PM
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Jared's (and Donald's) Middle East Peace Plan


The AP says things are afoot:
Quote:
U.S. officials say the Trump administration is staffing up a Middle East policy team at the White House in anticipation of unveiling its long awaited but largely mysterious Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.

The National Security Council last week began approaching other agencies seeking volunteers to join the team, which will work for President Donald Trump’s Mideast peace pointmen Jared Kushner and Jason Greenblatt, according to the officials. The team, which is being set up to organize the peace plan’s public presentation and any negotiations that may ensue, will comprise three units: one concentrating on its political and security details, one on its significant economic focus and one on strategic communications, the officials said.

The creation of a White House team is the first evidence in months that a plan is advancing. Although Trump officials have long promised the most comprehensive package ever put forward toward resolving the conflict, the emerging plan has not been described with even a small amount of detail by Kushner, Greenblatt or any other official.

Timing on the release of the plan remains undecided. The State Department, Pentagon, intelligence agencies and Congress have been asked to detail personnel to the team for six months to a year, according to the officials, who were not authorized to publicly discuss the matter and spoke on condition of anonymity.

The agencies declined to comment but an NSC official said that Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, and Greenblatt, Trump’s special envoy for international negotiations, “are expanding their team and the resources available as they finalize the details and rollout strategy of the peace initiative.”

White House officials say the plan will focus on pragmatic details, rather than top-line concepts, that will be able to easier win public support.
Anyone got any inkling of what that means, exactly? Like: what do we think we'll see when they finally show us their plan?

And what is the likelihood of any of it being adopted by everyone involved?

I'll be surprised if this new plan offers any real, concrete details and I'll be even more surprised if any of them get adopted and/or enacted. The first doubt is because everything this administration does is half-assed, utterly unfounded and/or ignorant of history and usually completely ignorant regarding the law. The second is because of how entrenched things are in the Middle East. But hey, I'm always willing to be pleasantly surprised; I just don't think it's at all likely so I say, in my best Principal Skinner voice: "Prove me wrong, kids. Prove. Me. Wrong."

What do y'all think?
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:46 PM
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I'm pretty much in agreement. I'd love to see some progress being made towards peace in the Middle East and I genuinely hope this proposal succeeds in that. But it's a huge problem and this administration has failed in addressing far easier issues. Realistically, I'll be happy if whatever plan this administration presents doesn't make things worse.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 08-02-2018 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:04 PM
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I have zero expectation that any Trump-generated proposal will be acceptable to Palestinians or the Arab countries.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:10 PM
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I have zero expectations as well. Trump has almost no one with foreign policy experience and those that do, like Bolton, are mad.

Rex Tillerson screwed the State Department by not hiring. You need those Mid East policy wonks focusing on the issue 40 hours a week.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:20 PM
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I have zero expectation that any Trump-generated proposal will be acceptable to Palestinians or the Arab countries.
This administration has made it clear: the Palestinians are going to be completely rubbed out. There is no 2-state solution; there is a final solution, and it's going to be Palestinians who get put on trains out of their home country.

You wanna know why Alan Dershowitz and Joe Lieberman love Trump so much? Think about it.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:37 PM
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As of yet, Kushner has simply been following the guidance of Netanyahu.

I would presume that the plan will be whatever Netanyahu has been proposing before now, unless he's finally decided to strike his own path.

Here's one speech Netty gave on the topic:

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5064276

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-02-2018 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:54 AM
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I think Kushner's peace plan will be to hire KushCo Peace Partners Inc. for consulting services, along with Xi Border Solutions, and they'll have that whole Mideast thing settled by 2021, 2025 at the latest.
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:43 AM
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This administrations plans have two criteria: 1) Make rich richer and 2) Infuriate any friends of the United States (Sates).

Brining peace?? Real politicians have been unable to do so since before I was born. They'll probably praise Assad inSuria as the newest friend of the fat Orange.
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Old 08-03-2018, 03:08 AM
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Isn't this likely a lot of nothing? They say they're doing something to get ignorant domestic voters to think they're doing something?
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:53 AM
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I'd expect a Trump* to advocate the "cure the disease by killing the patient" approach. It would certainly be very peaceful after the bombs stopped dropping!





*I know, in-law. Close enough.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 08-03-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:12 PM
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As of yet, Kushner has simply been following the guidance of Netanyahu.

I would presume that the plan will be whatever Netanyahu has been proposing before now, unless he's finally decided to strike his own path.
This American plan won't be pure Netanyahu. I'm sure Putin will have some input.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:32 PM
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Welcome to The Broken Triangle

Israel needs an enemy to cover their corruption. The Palestinians fill that role.

Arab Countries need a pathos-laden victim to cover their corruption (and provide a ready source near-slave workers). The Palestinians fill that role.

Palestinian "Leadership" can grift the international community far more effectively with a population in crisis rather than a population that is just getting by. The Palestinians fill that role.

If any of these three groups treated the Palestinian people as anything more than cannon-fodder for their cause this issue would be long resolved.
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:04 PM
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Welcome to The Broken Triangle

Israel needs an enemy to cover their corruption.
That doesn't appear to be working very well.

List of Israeli public officials convicted of crimes or misdemeanors
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:16 PM
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The AP says things are afoot:Anyone got any inkling of what that means, exactly? Like: what do we think we'll see when they finally show us their plan?
Who knows? Its pretty clear that they don't even know. All we've got so far is that some 17 months into Trumps presidency, the whitehouse feels the need to look busy and so is starting to put together a committee to study the mid-East peace problem. The conclusion would probably be, "Who knew that peace in the middle East could be so complicated." Followed by something cribbed from their predecessors but claimed by them to be revolutionary. Even if they do eventually come up with a road map and present it to the world, there is a very high likelihood that Trump will tweet something that totally contradicts the it. Leaving everyone confused as to what the whitehouse's actual position is.

Probability that their plan actually leads to Mid East Peace 10^-36 plus or minus 10^-35

Last edited by Buck Godot; 08-03-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 03:48 PM
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Those of you who think that Netanyahu will be in favor of some sort of drastic action against the Palestinians doesn’t know Bibi. If there’s something we’ve leaned in his 11 years as PM is that the man HATES drastic action, and will do anything to maintain the status quo. He won’t fight the Palestinians for the same readon he won’t make peace with them - because both involve risk, and risk might mean he won’t get reelected. Those who portray Netanyahu as some sort of a fanatic couldn’t be further than the truth.

So if Kushner does what Bibi wants, it’ll be to propose some bloodless plan that the Pals will reject, thus making Bibi look good. The worst case scenario, for him, is for Trump to rock the boat by actually doing anything, even something that ostensibly helps Israel.

Last edited by Alessan; 08-03-2018 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:20 PM
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Those of you who think that Netanyahu will be in favor of some sort of drastic action against the Palestinians doesn’t know Bibi. If there’s something we’ve leaned in his 11 years as PM is that the man HATES drastic action, and will do anything to maintain the status quo. He won’t fight the Palestinians for the same readon he won’t make peace with them - because both involve risk, and risk might mean he won’t get reelected. Those who portray Netanyahu as some sort of a fanatic couldn’t be further than the truth.

So if Kushner does what Bibi wants, it’ll be to propose some bloodless plan that the Pals will reject, thus making Bibi look good. The worst case scenario, for him, is for Trump to rock the boat by actually doing anything, even something that ostensibly helps Israel.
Maybe. The overall goal seems to be to slowly squeeze Iran, but that's pretty independent of the peace plan.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:08 PM
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I have zero expectation that any Trump-generated proposal will be acceptable to Palestinians or the Arab countries.
I am pretty sure the Palestinians have already said they were not open to any peace agreements involving the US based on the boneheaded embassy move.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:39 PM
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I am pretty sure the Palestinians have already said they were not open to any peace agreements involving the US based on the boneheaded embassy move.


Yeah, this. When step #1 in their plan was "Piss off everybody in the Middle East who isn't Israel", the hopes for an actual solution are pretty forlorn.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:31 PM
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I have full faith that Trump and his team will be able to come up with some plan that, in addition to pissing off the Palestinians, will also manage to piss off Israel.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:02 PM
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I have full faith that Trump and his team will be able to come up with some plan that, in addition to pissing off the Palestinians, will also manage to piss off Israel.

I did say it was step #1; that implies there's more steps to follow
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:05 PM
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I have zero expectation that any Trump-generated proposal will be acceptable to Palestinians or the Arab countries.
Agreed. But I'd put the caveat in that it won't make any progress because neither side's government - as opposed to the citizenry - actually wants a solution. Both have significant political motivation to maintain the status quo.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:48 PM
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It's here! Do we have peace in the Middle East yet?
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President Donald Trump unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan Tuesday, calling for the creation of a State of Palestine with its capital in portions of east Jerusalem. He declared it a “win-win” opportunity for both Israel and the Palestinians.

The plan ends speculation as to whether his administration, in preparing a proposal without input from Palestinian leaders, would abandon a “two-state resolution” to the conflict.
So what's in the plan?
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The plan more than doubles the territory currently under Palestinian control, although it also recognizes Israeli sovereignty over major settlement blocs in the West Bank, something to which the Palestinians will almost certainly object. The Palestinians have already rejected the proposal, accusing Trump of being biased in favor of Israel as he has adopted policies that bolster Israel at their expense.

The plan does call for a four-year freeze in new Israeli settlement construction, during which time details of a comprehensive agreement would be negotiated. However, it was not immediately clear if the freeze could be extended if a final deal is not concluded in the four years.

The 50-page political outline goes further in concessions to the Palestinians than many analysts had believed was likely. However, it would require them to accept conditions they have been previously unwilling to consider, such as accepting West Bank settlements. It builds on a 30-page economic plan for the West Bank and Gaza that was unveiled last June and which the Palestinians have also rejected,

Under the terms of the “peace vision” that Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner has been working on for nearly three years, the future Palestinian state would consist of the West Bank and Gaza, connected by a combination of above-ground roads and tunnels.

Netanyahu and his main political challenger in March elections, Benny Gantz, had signed off on the plan.
What say y'all? How likely is this to be approved by the Knesset? And how likely is this to be embraced by the Palestinians, after they've already publicly rejected it sight unseen?

And of course, the bottom line: will this plan bring peace to the Middle East?
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:05 PM
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It makes me long for the reasonableness and comparative success of Trump's infrastructure week(s).
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:35 PM
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The Knesset is facing it’s third election in a year. Right now, it couldn’t approve a turkey sandwich.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:35 PM
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Kushner already formed, acted upon, and nearly completed his Middle East Peace plan.

Then Trump announced that he was declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel and destroyed it.

That plan involved such moves as having Saudi Arabia kidnap (if I recall correctly) the President of Yemen and apply pressure to the Palestinians to suck it up and accept something. It looked like it was working, if I'm honest, even if it wasn't done in a nice and friendly manner.

While I haven't been following Middle Eastern news as deeply now as I was then, I strongly suspect that we effectively spent our load in that whole effort and, with Congress' actions against Saudi Arabia for Kashoggi and whatnot, they're unlikely to provide the same support as before.

And, similarly, Netanyahu is looking likely to go away, so any sort of arrangement with them is going to be hypothetical until he's back on firm ground or someone else has replaced him.

So, basically, this is just something to wave as evidence of work, heading into the election. But it doesn't have any more value than that.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-28-2020 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:39 PM
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And how likely is this to be embraced by the Palestinians, after they've already publicly rejected it sight unseen?
Well, it didn't take long to answer this question: "a thousand no's"
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Originally Posted by Mahmoud Abbas
After the nonsense that we heard today we say a thousand no’s to the Deal of The Century.
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Originally Posted by Mahmoud Abbas
We will not kneel and we will not surrender.
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The Islamic militant group Hamas rejected the “conspiracies” announced by the U.S. and Israel and said “all options are open” in responding to the Trump administration’s plan.

“We are certain that our Palestinian people will not let these conspiracies pass. So, all options are open. The (Israeli) occupation and the U.S. administration will bear the responsibility for what they did,” senior Hamas official Khalil al-Hayya said as he participated in one of several protests that broke out across the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.

Protesters burned tires and pictures of President Donald Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 01-28-2020 at 04:40 PM. Reason: fixed coding (of course!)
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:59 PM
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Without digging into any archives, my first reaction is that this "new" plan sounds a heck of a lot like the two-state solutions that have been floating around since the Clinton administration. I never expected this administration to come up with anything workable, but at the very least I thought it would be radically bad. This is just rehashed meh.
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Old 01-28-2020, 06:38 PM
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The Knesset is facing it’s third election in a year. Right now, it couldn’t approve a turkey sandwich.
As likely for the Palestinians to approve a ham sandwich as Jared's plan.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:10 AM
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As likely for the Palestinians to approve a ham sandwich
Well, that’s some common ground at least. Maybe they can build something from that...

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Old 01-29-2020, 12:36 PM
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Well the NY Times opines that this is not a peace plan; it is reelect Bibi and reelect the orange monster plan. I could write a fair peace plan in 5 minutes, but both sides would reject it instantly. It would involve recognizing Israel's right to exist and withdrawal of all the settlements.

I spent a month in Israel in 1976 and there were demonstrations in favor of new settlements and I knew at the time that they would be fatal for any hopes of peace in the near future. I was right.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:41 PM
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I bet it has a really slick cover showing a guy wearing a keffiyeh smiling and shaking hands with a guy wearing a kippah.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:48 PM
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I bet it has a really slick cover showing a guy wearing a keffiyeh smiling and shaking hands with a guy wearing a kippah.
Does the kippah guy look like he just threw up a little in his mouth?
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Old 01-29-2020, 04:07 PM
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I wouldn't underestimate Kushner. He's actually a pretty artful diplomat. Speaking yesterday to a CNN reporter who asked whether he thought the Palestinians would accept the plan he said:

"If they don't, they're going to screw up another opportunity, like they've screwed up every other opportunity that they've ever had in their existence."

"It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians," Kushner said. "They have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past."
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Old 01-29-2020, 04:15 PM
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Without digging into any archives, my first reaction is that this "new" plan sounds a heck of a lot like the two-state solutions that have been floating around since the Clinton administration. I never expected this administration to come up with anything workable, but at the very least I thought it would be radically bad. This is just rehashed meh.
It also includes the ridiculous ideas that Israel gets to annex all of the settlements it's been building in violation of international law for these past few decades as well as the Jordan River Valley, geographically isolating any future Palestinian State. It also prevents the Palestinians from having any military or intelligence force. Not a chance any plan with that gets approved by any Palestinian group.

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Old 01-29-2020, 04:25 PM
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I wouldn't underestimate Kushner. He's actually a pretty artful diplomat. Speaking yesterday to a CNN reporter who asked whether he thought the Palestinians would accept the plan he said:

"If they don't, they're going to screw up another opportunity, like they've screwed up every other opportunity that they've ever had in their existence."

"It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians," Kushner said. "They have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past."
Understood by every single person remotely familiar with the history of the ME peace process and widely attributed to Abba Eban in 1973.

So Kushner is not saying anything new. I doubt very much he's ever had an original thought on the subject in his entire privileged, useless life.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:17 PM
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It also includes the ridiculous ideas that Israel gets to annex all of the settlements it's been building in violation of international law for these past few decades as well as the Jordan River Valley, geographically isolating any future Palestinian State. It also prevents the Palestinians from having any military or intelligence force. Not a chance any plan with that gets approved by any Palestinian group.
Oh, so maybe it is radically bad after all. Disappointment dissipated!
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:01 PM
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Understood by every single person remotely familiar with the history of the ME peace process and widely attributed to Abba Eban in 1973.

So Kushner is not saying anything new. I doubt very much he's ever had an original thought on the subject in his entire privileged, useless life.
I was making a joke. What he said is hardly artful diplomacy.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:54 PM
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I wouldn't underestimate Kushner. He's actually a pretty artful diplomat. Speaking yesterday to a CNN reporter who asked whether he thought the Palestinians would accept the plan he said:

"If they don't, they're going to screw up another opportunity, like they've screwed up every other opportunity that they've ever had in their existence."

"It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians," Kushner said. "They have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past."
Even ignoring any detail of the plan, don't these comments by Kushner reek of pretense, bias and disdain?

For me the elevation of this snotty and dim-witted twerp symbolizes the ignominy of this shameful Administration.
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:06 AM
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I wouldn't underestimate Kushner. He's actually a pretty artful diplomat. Speaking yesterday to a CNN reporter who asked whether he thought the Palestinians would accept the plan he said:

"If they don't, they're going to screw up another opportunity, like they've screwed up every other opportunity that they've ever had in their existence."

"It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians," Kushner said. "They have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past."
I thought you were making this up. I googled it and learned to my dismay that you weren't. I'm profoundly ignorant of the issues and complexities of Israel-Palestine peace negotiations, but I'm fairly confident in my assessment that you don't say shit like that when you're ostensibly trying to get people to sit down together. This assumes, of course, that the plan is an honest attempt to get people to sit down together, which I tend to doubt.

It hasn't been getting a lot of attention, but the plan also envisions a tunnel between the West Bank and Gaza. I believe this is meant to be a railway tunnel. The tunnel would need to be over 20 miles long (per my quick check on Google Maps). It wouldn't be the absolute longest tunnel in the world, but that's still a helluva long tunnel. I imagine it could be done, but it just seems like a peace plan that requires a massive engineering project might not be that realistic.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 01-30-2020 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:53 AM
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This does seem like a very Trump-ian plan because of his belief that in any given deal one party comes out ahead and the other party gets screwed.

How is this being received in Israel? The Israeli adoration of Trump is a disconcerting thing to me, considering Bible passages regarding false prophets.
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:33 AM
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How is this being received in Israel? The Israeli adoration of Trump is a disconcerting thing to me, considering Bible passages regarding false prophets.
It's a peace deal designed specifically for people who don't want a peace deal. Very few people here think it's a real, serious proposal; mostly, they're waiting to see how it impacts the elections. Nobody thinks that the Palestinians will touch it with a 10-foot pole. There are a few voices on the right crowing about American "concessions", as if that means something.

Regarding Trump... the adoration is disconcerting to me, too, although I'm much more knowledgeable about American politics than the average Israeli, to no small degree thanks to my presence on the SDMB. Israelis tend to be focused on their own problems and are largely ignorant of global politics. Israelis also, unfortunately, tend to suffer from low self esteem and are highly susceptible to flattery. Trump may be an idiot - most Israelis have figured that out, at least - but he's acting like he's OUR idiot, so we support him. Anything else would seem ungrateful.

Last edited by Alessan; 01-30-2020 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:50 AM
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Even ignoring any detail of the plan, don't these comments by Kushner reek of pretense, bias and disdain?

For me the elevation of this snotty and dim-witted twerp symbolizes the ignominy of this shameful Administration.
I thought my joke was obvious but apparently since you’re the second person who thought I was serious I should include /s in the future. 🙂
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
I thought you were making this up. I googled it and learned to my dismay that you weren't. I'm profoundly ignorant of the issues and complexities of Israel-Palestine peace negotiations, but I'm fairly confident in my assessment that you don't say shit like that when you're ostensibly trying to get people to sit down together. This assumes, of course, that the plan is an honest attempt to get people to sit down together, which I tend to doubt.

It hasn't been getting a lot of attention, but the plan also envisions a tunnel between the West Bank and Gaza. I believe this is meant to be a railway tunnel. The tunnel would need to be over 20 miles long (per my quick check on Google Maps). It wouldn't be the absolute longest tunnel in the world, but that's still a helluva long tunnel. I imagine it could be done, but it just seems like a peace plan that requires a massive engineering project might not be that realistic.
Note to self: third failure to signify sarcasm. Use winky face in future.

I literally thought I was reading the Borowitz Report when I initially read those quotes.
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:31 AM
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Creating peace requires at least positivity, optimism and goodwill. An absence of hostility and pessimism, the lack of a sense of competitive victory or loss. With both sides hopeful, a dialog begins...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
...
"If they don't, they're going to screw up another opportunity, like they've screwed up every other opportunity that they've ever had in their existence."

"It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians," Kushner said. "They have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past."
Who let a fuckin Trump in here???

(Yeah, by marriage, whatever.)
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:58 AM
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bobot:

Quote:
Creating peace requires at least positivity, optimism and goodwill..(snip)..the lack of a sense of competitive victory or loss.
I disagree. The sense of loss is the one thing that has prolonged the conflict this long. The Israelis have won every actual war they fought against Arab nations, but the unwillingness of those nations (except Egypt and Jordan) to acknowledge their loss in the military arena has them continuing to commit acts of violence in the hopes of absolute victory, which in turn leads the Israelis to conclude that peace is not yet possible. If the Palestinians (and Syrians, and Lebanese, and Iraqis, etc) would ever be willing to accept that Israel will not be defeated through violence and adopt an attitude of surrender, they'd be amazed at just how well peace might actually work out for them.
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Old 01-30-2020, 07:22 AM
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For sure Israel has won (and hopefully will win) all conflicts with her aggressive/violent neighbours, but the Palestinian occupation isn't one that can be won. Palestinians, like Israelis, are there. Nothing will change the fact that both Israelis and Palestinians are there, living.

Last edited by orcenio; 01-30-2020 at 07:22 AM.
  #47  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
The Israelis have won every actual war they fought against Arab nations, but the unwillingness of those nations (except Egypt and Jordan)
"Except Egypt and Jordan" - yeah, the two neighbors that abut something like 85-90% of Israel's land borders. That's "other than that, Mrs. Lincoln" territory.

Without Egypt or Jordan, nobody's going to start a conventional war with Israel.
Quote:
to acknowledge their loss in the military arena has them continuing to commit acts of violence in the hopes of absolute victory
Not to understate the consequences of terrorist attacks, but they do not threaten Israel's hold on its territory. There is no route to "absolute victory" over Israel that way, and I'd be curious to know which nations are fooling themselves into believing there is.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
Note to self: third failure to signify sarcasm. Use winky face in future.

I literally thought I was reading the Borowitz Report when I initially read those quotes.
Oh, I knew you were being sarcastic about the "artful diplomat" thing, but I thought the quotes were exaggerated paraphrases of something he said, the way people "quote" Trump by mocking his speech patterns. Especially since there wasn't a cite, my immediate reaction was that you were satirizing him. But then I remembered satire is dead and I checked the quote. Good lord he's a piece of shit.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
I thought my joke was obvious but apparently since you’re the second person who thought I was serious I should include /s in the future. 🙂
You'd fessed up to the sarcasm before I posted, so I had no chance to be deceived.

I thought of editing off your initial paragraph, but that leaves Kushner's name off the quotes. Then I thought of stripping part of your first paragraph, but that seemed overly autistic ... and under-appreciative of your attempt at humor! So I went for broke and quoted yours in entirety.

(BTW, AIM or did you used to play Mafia on the ungulate's board? If so, plz jump in to Pleonast's latest!)
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:54 AM
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RTFirefly:

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"Except Egypt and Jordan" - yeah, the two neighbors that abut something like 85-90% of Israel's land borders. That's "other than that, Mrs. Lincoln" territory.
Not sure what you mean here. Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with Israel, no other Arab nation (or quasi-national entity) has. I don't see how the land borders comes into play on this subject.

Quote:
Not to understate the consequences of terrorist attacks, but they do not threaten Israel's hold on its territory. There is no route to "absolute victory" over Israel that way, and I'd be curious to know which nations are fooling themselves into believing there is.
While you and I and likely most the world believe that to be true, what do you think the end-game of the Palestinian leadership (don't call it a nation if you don't wish to) is? Their strategy forward clearly involves violence, what's the point of that if they don't think it's their path to some sort of victory? They may be deluded, but I don't see any other logic to it.
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