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  #201  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:13 PM
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BTW, perhaps you can answer a question for me. I graduated high school in 1984 and when I was contemplating college choices, the guidance counselor advised me which schools were "stretches", which were safety schools and which were in the middle. Meanwhile, my brother's kids graduated high school in 2012 and 2016 and didn't get that kind of advice. So I was touring schools that my nephew had no chance of getting into (good grades but a terrible SAT score). (Although it's a lot of fun to tour these schools. The really elite ones are amazing places. I wish I was 18 again and could go to school for the first time all over again.)

So do high school counselors still advise students which schools to consider?
Yes, IME. My oldest daughter is a freshman in college, and received extensive advice from her guidance counselors, including dreams, reaches & safety schools. My second daughter is a junior in high school and has recently this process with the counselors. Suburban public high school BTW.
  #202  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:16 PM
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For a good laugh on the subject, check out post 64611 in the Baker's Dozen thread here: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...3445&page=1293
  #203  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:28 PM
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So do high school counselors still advise students which schools to consider?
It varies by institution. There are lots of public schools where there's one counselor for 500 kids (that's what we have), which is insane. It's even more insane than it looks because counselor duties have expanded significantly over the years--for example, as standardized tests explode, they end up as testing coordinators. And everything requires more paperwork every year, much of which MUST be completed by a counselor. So in lots of schools, counselors just don't have time.

In other cases, even where they do have time, they don't have expertise. College admissions is one of those fields that requires being an expert on an esoteric and rapidly changing body of knowledge. You can't learn in in college, but rather as you go. And you stay current mostly by staying active--having a network of people you talk to so you know which schools offer good aid, what trends in admissions are, etc. And there's a LOT of knowing people, too.

So the counselors at most schools try, but it's not always good and there's never enough of it.

Because of this, there's been an explosion in private college admissions counseling, like in the current scandal. Hiring a private admissions counselor is absolutely normal in upper-middle class/professional circles now, and it's becoming increasingly common in middle class circles as well. These people charge $85-$200 an hour (or $2-20K for a "package"). This is separate from private test prep, though it may be through the same person. Furthermore, good college counseling is a perk a lot of expensive private schools offer: it's a big part of their advertising. Even then, a lot of wealthy parents go with a professional.

It really does take a lot of knowledge to find a kid a school that 1) Matches their personal and professional goals 2) will take them 3) will be affordable. It has to be personalized because, for example, a kid with a household income of $100,000 might well find the State Flagship program to be the most affordable, best option: a kid with a household income of $75,000 and similar stats might be best off with in the honors program of a regional public school; and the kid with the same stats and a household income of $10k might find both those totally unaffordable but a more elite LAC might be free. And Kid A might be able to get into THAT school and rejected from THIS one when Kid B would get into THAT school but be rejected from THIS school. You can't just put grades and test scores into a computer and it spits out a list.

I work at a public magnet where most of our kids are first generation college students (many are first-generation high school students). We strive to provide the same sort of advising elite private counselors provide. It's a TON of work. We've been really successful, but only because we've really made it the focus of our whole program and we have several individuals willing to donate a lot of their time. When other schools don't do what we do, it's not that they are lazy.
  #204  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:39 PM
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OK, in that case, thank you for your service. People usually say that to those in the military but it sounds like you deserve it as well. Getting kids, particularly first-generation college students, into college is a great thing to be doing. You can really change lives.
  #205  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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It varies by institution.
Manda JO, your posts in this thread have been outstanding and incredibly illuminating. Thank you.
  #206  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:17 PM
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Our sons have all gone to the same very good suburban public high school and have each gotten pretty useful college counseling, including guidance in figuring out dream, reach and safety schools.
  #207  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:42 PM
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It varies by institution. There are lots of public schools where there's one counselor for 500 kids (that's what we have), which is insane. It's even more insane than it looks because counselor duties have expanded significantly over the years--for example, as standardized tests explode, they end up as testing coordinators. And everything requires more paperwork every year, much of which MUST be completed by a counselor. So in lots of schools, counselors just don't have time.
When I was in high school there was one counselor per 500 kids, assuming you only counted the senior class. I worked in the College Office as a student volunteer so I was up on this.
They only allowed 3 applications per student, plus the generic application for CCNY. I did one safety school, one school I had high confidence in, and one stretch school. I think most people did something similar.
Perhaps this problem could be reduced if there was some sort of a limit on applications countrywide. Acceptance rates would increase, there could be more time spent vetting colleges and students, and students might get a bit less frantic.
I suppose the colleges would hate higher acceptance rates.
What do you think? It would be hard to implement, I understand.
  #208  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:47 PM
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other students are suing because they were not told the admission process was rigged

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  #209  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:48 PM
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Loughlin should have made a legal contribution to USC. Maybe setup up an endowment or scholarship in the Arts? It's beyond stupid to let your kids use athletic scholarshipswhen they aren't athletes.
quid pro quo contributions are not legal. And if you make admission for dollars too obvious, the school would likely lose more money from alumni giving than they would make up in money for admissions.

There are smart rich kids. When I was at MIT there was a du Pont and a Thai princess there - neither of whom had any problem with the work. There was also a du Pont athletic facility, but from long before she got there.
  #210  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:49 PM
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cases like what's mentioned above are why CA is an open enrollment state .....
  #211  
Old 03-14-2019, 05:01 PM
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as expected the Hallmark channel axed Loughlin and Sephora canned her daughter
  #212  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:47 PM
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When I was in high school there was one counselor per 500 kids, assuming you only counted the senior class. I worked in the College Office as a student volunteer so I was up on this.
They only allowed 3 applications per student, plus the generic application for CCNY. I did one safety school, one school I had high confidence in, and one stretch school. I think most people did something similar.
Perhaps this problem could be reduced if there was some sort of a limit on applications countrywide. Acceptance rates would increase, there could be more time spent vetting colleges and students, and students might get a bit less frantic.
I suppose the colleges would hate higher acceptance rates.
What do you think? It would be hard to implement, I understand.
I think that would hurt the neediest kids the worst. The reason kids apply to 20 schools is that it's quite possible to apply to be rejected by 19 and get a full-ride to the one you get in. This isn't true for all kids, but if you really, really need financial aid and you're kind of an edge case, the only way for it to work is shotgun style. I don't know how I'd fix the current system, but drastically limiting applications isn't it. How does a kid whose never even been out of state pick three schools to apply to?

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quid pro quo contributions are not legal. And if you make admission for dollars too obvious, the school would likely lose more money from alumni giving than they would make up in money for admissions.

There are smart rich kids. When I was at MIT there was a du Pont and a Thai princess there - neither of whom had any problem with the work. There was also a du Pont athletic facility, but from long before she got there.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, most "development cases" are exceptionally well qualified. But lots of exceptionally well qualified kids get rejected. It's not "take my idiot son" money, it's "take my impressively accomplished student over other impressively accomplished students".
  #213  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:49 PM
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OK, in that case, thank you for your service. People usually say that to those in the military but it sounds like you deserve it as well. Getting kids, particularly first-generation college students, into college is a great thing to be doing. You can really change lives.
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Manda JO, your posts in this thread have been outstanding and incredibly illuminating. Thank you.
Thanks to both of you for your kind words. I am pretty deep in this world!

(For example, the last two hours have been the whirlwind of MIT decisions being released)
  #214  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:18 PM
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as expected the Hallmark channel axed Loughlin and Sephora canned her daughter


that sort of stinks as garage series mysteries was one of their better movie series ...

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  #215  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:25 PM
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as expected the Hallmark channel axed Loughlin and Sephora canned her daughter
She's also lost TRESsemmť and Estee Lauder brands Too Faced and Smashbox Beauty. Plenty of sponsorship deals still out there, though, including Amazon, Marc Jacobs, Dolce & Gabbana and Clinique. Amazing how being the child of someone semi-famous can be leveraged to bring in big money for very little effort.

Very little effort seems to be the theme here.
  #216  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:27 PM
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that sort of stinks as garage series mysteries was one of their better movie series ...
As "comfort food" mysteries go, they were fairly satisfying. If you're looking for a similar fix, try the Alison Sweeney series, the one were she's a librarian and the one that just started up where she's a podcaster. (until we find out she's running a human trafficking ring shipping Irish clog dancers to bars and nightclubs throughout the Midwest )
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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They should do a movie about this case. I have a title "The Verdict was Mail Fraud". Who can we get to star in it?
Lol Get Macy
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  #218  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:12 PM
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While we're all taking a certain pleasure from Lori Laughlin being hung out to dry, remember that Felicity Huffman just wrapped production on an indie film that's critical to Amy Jo Johnson's attempt to shift from over-the-hill Power Ranger to serious director. AFAICT the film hasn't found a distributor yet, and not being able to get the film out could derail Johnson's career. That's some serious collateral damage.
  #219  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:52 PM
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I've been wondering how students who got into college via bribes and/or cheating fare academically. After all, someone with a low GPA and an unimpressive SAT score is likely entering college at a disadvantage. Turns out that may be the deciding factor in whether those students are allowed to continue at that school or get kicked out.

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Some schools might be willing to look at whether the students in question had so far proven whether they could stand at the institution on their own merits, Helwick said, to decide if they would be allowed to stay.

"How far have they progressed?" she asked. "How well have they done? Have they demonstrated they really were capable of performing at a level of someone who got in under normal circumstances?"

A student could otherwise be asked to leave the university and attend another institution to prove their academic merit on their own, Boland said, which is "a very common practice," often for a student who might have failed out or partied too much and didn't take their education seriously enough.

And, Helwick said, "community colleges are available for all manner of people."
That seems fair, unless, of course, the student's acceptable grades are due to cheating on tests and/or hiring someone to write their essays. One reason this whole debacle angers me is that I can't imagine how these students contribute to the quality of education for other students. Do they make constructive contributions to discussions? Ask relevant questions in class? Carry their own weight on team projects?
  #220  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:03 PM
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While we're all taking a certain pleasure from Lori Laughlin being hung out to dry, remember that Felicity Huffman just wrapped production on an indie film that's critical to Amy Jo Johnson's attempt to shift from over-the-hill Power Ranger to serious director. AFAICT the film hasn't found a distributor yet, and not being able to get the film out could derail Johnson's career. That's some serious collateral damage.
Good point, and I hope Huffman is aware of how her actions affect others. Same for Loughlin, whose Hallmark series "Garage Sale Mysteries" has been canceled, undoubtedly putting others out of work. And the same for the less famous parents involved. Younger children in all those families, kids who aren't yet college age, suffer by association. If one of those younger kids DOES make it into college on his or her own merit, who'll believe it?

I imagine there are all sorts of people suffering because of this. The effects of unethical behavior may not always be foreseen, but it makes them no less painful and the culprits no less culpable.
  #221  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:33 PM
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Both of Loughlinís daughters have dropped out of USC.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/lori...221700968.html
  #222  
Old 03-15-2019, 12:57 AM
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While we're all taking a certain pleasure from Lori Laughlin being hung out to dry, remember that Felicity Huffman just wrapped production on an indie film that's critical to Amy Jo Johnson's attempt to shift from over-the-hill Power Ranger to serious director. AFAICT the film hasn't found a distributor yet, and not being able to get the film out could derail Johnson's career. That's some serious collateral damage.
Unfortunately that happens a lot. Kevin Spaceyís last film was at least OK by accounts and had a good cast. It was already in the can but the company killed it. They released it in theaters probably because they had to by contract. With zero marketing and a quick exit it made a couple hundred bucks. Most people probably donít even know it exist. No sympathy for Spacey of course but there are 105 people listed in the cast alone.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:17 AM
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There was also a du Pont athletic facility, but from long before she got there.
I've heard that tactics is taking flowers to your first date with a girl, whereas strategy is sending her flowers three days before your first date.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:26 AM
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Unfortunately that happens a lot. Kevin Spacey’s last film was at least OK by accounts and had a good cast. It was already in the can but the company killed it. They released it in theaters probably because they had to by contract. With zero marketing and a quick exit it made a couple hundred bucks. Most people probably don’t even know it exist. No sympathy for Spacey of course but there are 105 people listed in the cast alone.

When push comes to shove it is quite rare in Hollywood for anyone to give a rat's ass about anyone else.

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:02 PM
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Loughlin has been fired from Fuller House, too.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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Both of Loughlin’s daughters have dropped out of USC.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/lori...221700968.html
I’m imagining the daughters’ reaction is the reaction that Homer has after Monty Burns insists he step down as head of the union in order to get the dental plan.

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  #227  
Old 03-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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When push comes to shove it is quite rare in Hollywood for anyone to give a rat's ass about anyone else.
I donít think itís a matter of not caring. Iím sure everyone involved wanted to make money off of it. But the producers knew that if they tried to distribute and market the film they would be crucified in the press and on social media and still lose money. It was a no win situation for everyone involved.

On the other hand they could have listened to the decades worth of stories and not hired him in the first place.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:05 PM
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I donít think itís a matter of not caring. Iím sure everyone involved wanted to make money off of it. But the producers knew that if they tried to distribute and market the film they would be crucified in the press and on social media and still lose money. It was a no win situation for everyone involved.

On the other hand they could have listened to the decades worth of stories and not hired him in the first place.
Mainly I meant the stars, Loughlin, Huffman, but in Spacey's case the producers are questionable.

This is no surprise in Hollywood, productions shut down in a hurry all the time, it's not like a business going under that tries to struggle through for a while, shows get cancelled, ba-bam!, it all shuts down overnight. So all the people who are out of work knew there was a chance of this for some reason or another. But I doubt these stars and producers thought for a moment about the effect of crimes being revealed.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:19 PM
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Mainly I meant the stars, Loughlin, Huffman, but in Spacey's case the producers are questionable.

This is no surprise in Hollywood, productions shut down in a hurry all the time, it's not like a business going under that tries to struggle through for a while, shows get cancelled, ba-bam!, it all shuts down overnight. So all the people who are out of work knew there was a chance of this for some reason or another. But I doubt these stars and producers thought for a moment about the effect of crimes being revealed.
I'll actually defend Loughlin and Huffman a little. I serious doubt they thought what they were doing would be serious enough to get them fired from their jobs and their productions cancelled. After all, nepotism runs rampant in Hollywood so why should they be singled out for ostracization. Personally I think Hallmark is overreacting and it would not surprise me at all if they rehire her after this whole scandal blows over.
  #230  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:25 PM
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I'll actually defend Loughlin and Huffman a little. I serious doubt they thought what they were doing would be serious enough to get them fired from their jobs and their productions cancelled. After all, nepotism runs rampant in Hollywood so why should they be singled out for ostracization. Personally I think Hallmark is overreacting and it would not surprise me at all if they rehire her after this whole scandal blows over.
They didn't do it to punish her. They did it because she is an untouchable PR disaster right now and they didn't want to lose their sponsors. A goody two shows operation like the Hallmark channel likely won't use her ever again.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:45 PM
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I don't know that Hallmark necessarily won't use her again, but I'm not sure they have that much incentive to. There are likely a good number of actresses of similar age/fame that would be willing to make the same sorts of mystery movies.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:26 PM
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I don't know that Hallmark necessarily won't use her again, but I'm not sure they have that much incentive to. There are likely a good number of actresses of similar age/fame that would be willing to make the same sorts of mystery movies.
Heck, Hallmark already has a bunch of other actresses whom they regularly employ, including Candace Cameron Bure (who also happens to be another Full House alum), Lacey Chabert, Kimberly Williams-Paisley, Kellie Martin, Danica McKellar, etc., etc.

And, yeah, as hajaro notes, Hallmark is an extremely conservative company. I don't see them bringing Loughlin back any time soon, if ever.

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Old 03-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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From reading all the posts, I got the impression that USC is not a highly selective school, but their admissions requirements say otherwise:
USC has done a lot in the past decade or two to improve their bona fides in undergraduate academics. A generation ago, with the exception of its film and dentistry programs, it was primarily a school for wealthy, but academically ungifted kids, and was often mocked as the University of Spoiled Children.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:36 PM
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I don't know that Hallmark necessarily won't use her again, but I'm not sure they have that much incentive to. There are likely a good number of actresses of similar age/fame that would be willing to make the same sorts of mystery movies.
The first Garage Sale Mysteries movie had a different actor playing her husband Jason. And the actors playing the kids were different in the beginning too. Maybe now they can get a different actress to play Jennifer. I'd rather see that than see it axed altogether.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:39 PM
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The first Garage Sale Mysteries movie had a different actor playing her husband Jason. And the actors playing the kids were different in the beginning too. Maybe now they can get a different actress to play Jennifer. I'd rather see that than see it axed altogether.
I can understand that. I may have watched the first, not sure. Haven't followed the movie series, though. Do watch Aurora Teagarden with Cadance Cameron Bure, though.
  #236  
Old 03-15-2019, 04:10 PM
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I'll actually defend Loughlin and Huffman a little. I serious doubt they thought what they were doing would be serious enough to get them fired from their jobs and their productions cancelled. After all, nepotism runs rampant in Hollywood so why should they be singled out for ostracization. Personally I think Hallmark is overreacting and it would not surprise me at all if they rehire her after this whole scandal blows over.
Hallmark's reaction is entirely proportionate. The entertainment industry is a PR industry, and Lori Loughlin's escapades won't play well with the ordinary folks who watch Hallmark films. She's a serviceable actor, but can be replaced with any number of reliable professionals. They have no reason to hire her back.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:20 PM
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I'll actually defend Loughlin and Huffman a little. I serious doubt they thought what they were doing would be serious enough to get them fired from their jobs and their productions cancelled. After all, nepotism runs rampant in Hollywood so why should they be singled out for ostracization. Personally I think Hallmark is overreacting and it would not surprise me at all if they rehire her after this whole scandal blows over.
This isn't nepotism. This is paying bribes under the table. I think it's a lot more likely that they just never once thought they'd get caught.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:15 PM
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Hallmark's reaction is entirely proportionate. The entertainment industry is a PR industry, and Lori Loughlin's escapades won't play well with the ordinary folks who watch Hallmark films. She's a serviceable actor, but can be replaced with any number of reliable professionals. They have no reason to hire her back.
As several articles have pointed out over the past couple of days, she is more than one actor out of a stable of actors, she's become a major part of the Hallmark brand, with the mystery series, a romance series, a ton of Christmas movies, and a bunch of side businesses. I suspect this means that after a suitable amount of time has passed, she'll go on a redemption tour of talk shows followed by a return to Hallmark (in show business, in the end if's all about the benjamins). It helps that the Hallmark audience demographic loves a good redemption story.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:38 PM
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I think it’s her besmirched Christian values that will keep her from doing so, and from her getting hired back.

That ship has kinda sailed now!
  #240  
Old 03-15-2019, 05:54 PM
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I've heard that tactics is taking flowers to your first date with a girl, whereas strategy is sending her flowers three days before your first date.
But if you do it before she was born, that's just weird.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:45 PM
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I think itís her besmirched Christian values that will keep her from doing so, and from her getting hired back.

That ship has kinda sailed now!
Sheís Catholic. One trip to confession and sheís good to go.
  #242  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:14 PM
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https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...319-story.html

Quote:
College admissions scandal: Wealthy parents told to make deal or face more charges

Federal prosecutors are seeking potential deals with some of the wealthy parents charged in the sweeping college admissions scandal as investigators continue to broaden the case, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation.

One source said some of the parents are being given a short window to consider a deal or potentially face additional charges.

Itís unclear which parents prosecutors hope to seek out for cooperation, but sources said authorities were interested in getting a better picture of how the scam worked.
  #243  
Old 03-20-2019, 10:37 PM
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Perhaps these wealthy parents will have to cough up enough to pay for Chump's border wall.
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The two most interesting things in the world: Other people's sex lives and your own money.
  #244  
Old 04-08-2019, 03:19 PM
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Felicity Huffman to plead guilty:

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1115331012651835394
  #245  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:11 AM
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Lori Loughlin and her husband are in a way worse position than Felicity Huffman ... because the huge amount they allegedly paid in bribes to get their daughters into USC could land them in prison for 2 YEARS MINIMUM ... TMZ has learned. Sources connected to the case tell us ... all of the parents in the college cheating scandal have been offered plea deals, but prosecutors will only accept pleas with prison time attached. As we reported, Felicity copped a plea Monday, along with 12 other parents. The remaining 37 individuals charged -- including Lori and her husband, Mossimo Giannulli -- have been offered plea deals, with varying recommendations for prison sentences, largely determined by the amount they paid in bribes and whether they accept responsibility for what they did. Felicity's plea would enable her to serve as little as 4 months in prison. The problem for Lori and Mossimo is that they paid $500,000 to allegedly bribe the crew coach, and the amount raises the MINIMUM PRISON SENTENCE IN A PLEA DEAL TO A RANGE OF 2 TO 2 1/2 YEARS. Our sources say prosecutors have given all defendants an ultimatum ... reach a plea deal QUICKLY or else they will go to a Federal Grand Jury and add charges, including money laundering, which significantly raises the low end of prison time.
https://www.tmz.com/2019/04/09/lori-...bribery-money/

This surprises me: I expected the plea deals to be fines/community service/probation--with no prison sentence.

Last edited by PastTense; 04-09-2019 at 10:13 AM.
  #246  
Old 04-09-2019, 11:57 AM
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Personally, I'm happier if they go to jail for at least a little while - what are fines to the filthy rich? Just the cost of doing business. Jail time, though, that's an actual inconvenience. AND they have to sit elbow-to-elbow with the impoverished masses at meal time. Although that might be a little unfair to the impoverished who have to put with Their Specialness.
  #247  
Old 04-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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Caitlin Flanagan pens a masterpiece on this for The Atlantic. It is practically a film treatment

"They Had It Coming" -- https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...eveals/586468/
  #248  
Old 04-09-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Jail time, though, that's an actual inconvenience. AND they have to sit elbow-to-elbow with the impoverished masses at meal time. Although that might be a little unfair to the impoverished who have to put with Their Specialness.
We are talking federal prisons here: they get a better class of criminal (white collar crime, tax evaders...) than state prisons.
  #249  
Old 04-09-2019, 02:29 PM
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When you have a Full House and the opponent calmly raises 3 yrs of your life... it's Deal or No Deal


Looks like Lori Loughlin might be going to the Fuller House: LORI LOUGHLIN AND HUBBY JUST INDICTED FOR ADDITIONAL CHARGE OF MONEY LAUNDERING

As breathlessly reported,

Quote:
This means if Lori and her husband now want to plea bargain their cases, instead of a minimum range of 2 to 2 and a half years in prison ... prosecutors would recommend to the judge a MINIMUM RANGE OF 4 YEARS AND 9 MONTHS UP TO 5 YEARS AND 11 MONTHS.

There's also a very technical rub. Theoretically by charging CONSPIRACY to money launder, the minimum sentence could go even higher -- way higher.
This is from TMZ, America's most trusted source for news.

Last edited by JohnT; 04-09-2019 at 02:32 PM.
  #250  
Old 04-09-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Caitlin Flanagan pens a masterpiece on this for The Atlantic. It is practically a film treatment

"They Had It Coming" -- https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...eveals/586468/
That was a thing of beauty.
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