Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:59 PM
DrCube is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Caseyville, IL
Posts: 7,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
“No vehicles made by a company whose employees are not represented by a union.” Don’t see why that would be “infuriating” to you.
That's not at all what the sign said.
  #52  
Old 10-17-2019, 12:03 AM
GMANCANADA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 437
@Voyager - I think the reasons you suggest are very subjective: "overpriced", by what standard? A friend laughs at people who own Samsung phones and tells me they're idiots who pay too much for overpriced junk, he has a cheaper Oppo.

There is no such thing as "overpriced" - the price charged is what the market is willing to bear based on the features and benefits (real or perceived) they offer consumers and the return the company wants to achieve. This is true for Tesla, Apple, Rolex, Mercedes and every other premium / luxury brands. Do you "despise" all of them and their users as well?

Given that you seem to be pretty rational in general, but given the strength of your dislike, (which seems to be pretty subjective and irrational to me), you're in a unique position to answer the OP's question - what exactly triggers such anger?

@Joey P - I agree with you, but there is a big difference (as many people here seem to be missing) between saying "here's some thought out reasons why the brand makes no sense for me" versus "despising" it.

The OP's question is not "what are rational reasons people don't buy Teslas", but rather "what are the reasons people hate Tesla so much"? Big difference.
  #53  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:05 AM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
I don't think most acts of Tesla vandalism are really thought through at all, but pretending for the moment that they are, and ignoring that vandalism is never really justified--

Tesla is making a number of enemies as they go along. Among them:

Car dealerships: Tesla has no dealership network and sells cars either online or via their own showrooms. Many states have laws against this--laws which were set up nearly a century ago and which restrict automakers from selling their own cars. Tesla has successfully overturned these laws in some places and is working on others.

Dealerships rightfully fear that their relevance will decline if Tesla is successful. Of course there's no legitimate reason for the laws in this day and age, but that won't stop dealers from fighting every step of the way.

Auto worker unions: Never mind that Tesla isn't unionized--that ship has sailed and there are plenty of non-union auto plants in the US now. No, the problem here is that the switch to EVs is likely to reduce the overall amount of high-grade labor put into a car. EVs are simpler than ICEs and don't need as many well-paid machinists, etc. to build. They're more expensive to build still, but the cost is mostly from materials, not labor. The most expensive parts are the cells, which have totally automated production.

Existing automakers: This is pretty simple--Tesla's mere existence is a threat. The rise of EVs invalidates a big chunk of their experience base. Not all of it, of course (EVs still have bodies and interiors and the like), but the drivetrain is no small part, and a big chunk of the "secret sauce" (whereas things like seats are usually made by outside suppliers).

Oil companies: Also pretty obvious. Of course it's not Tesla alone that's the threat, but rather that Tesla has shown the way to widespread use of EVs. I'm sure they know the switch to EVs is inevitable at this point, but they will still slow things as much as possible.
  #54  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:20 AM
Isamu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Osaka
Posts: 6,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Car dealerships: Tesla has no dealership network and sells cars either online or via their own showrooms. Many states have laws against this--laws which were set up nearly a century ago and which restrict automakers from selling their own cars. Tesla has successfully overturned these laws in some places and is working on others.

Dealerships rightfully fear that their relevance will decline if Tesla is successful. Of course there's no legitimate reason for the laws in this day and age, but that won't stop dealers from fighting every step of the way.
Just curious -- why would it be illegal for manufacturers to sell their own cars?
  #55  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:12 AM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 47,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMANCANADA View Post
@Voyager - I think the reasons you suggest are very subjective: "overpriced", by what standard? A friend laughs at people who own Samsung phones and tells me they're idiots who pay too much for overpriced junk, he has a cheaper Oppo.

There is no such thing as "overpriced" - the price charged is what the market is willing to bear based on the features and benefits (real or perceived) they offer consumers and the return the company wants to achieve. This is true for Tesla, Apple, Rolex, Mercedes and every other premium / luxury brands. Do you "despise" all of them and their users as well?
I worked for AT&T when we tried to be in the computer business. Our stuff was overpriced. We knew it. We could justify it on the basis of perceived quality - quality which didn't exist.
That you are able to sell that martini to the rhino for $1,000 doesn't mean it isn't overpriced.

As for Apple, I base it on functionality for the money. Given declining sales, I'm not the only one who considers the new iPhones overpriced.
As for me I buy two generations back on Amazon, pop into the Verizon store and get a new card and have them load an app to transfer my data and apps, and I'm good to go. Apple isn't the only overpriced company out there.
  #56  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:15 AM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 47,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
So? Tesla employees are not UAW-represented.



as far as I know, the locals have the freedom to do this if they want. They're not going to do something like that if they want to try to organize Tesla employees. and it's not universal; I work for one of the "Detroit" car companies, and the majority of facilities I go to have no such restrictions.
And they are not foreign. Not that I'm saying Tesla is great - I've talked to people who have worked in the Tesla plant at parties and they all hate it. And Tesla does nothing for the community.
  #57  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:40 AM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
Just curious -- why would it be illegal for manufacturers to sell their own cars?
Back in the old, old days, when automakers were just getting started, they needed some means of distributing their cars. The country is big and communication and transportation were slow back then. They set up agreements with private distributors around the country to sell the cars.

But it was an asymmetrical arrangement, since the automakers could easily pull the rug out from some particular dealer if they didn't like them. The dealers recognized this imbalance and lobbied for legal protections.

These legal protections evolved into an outright ban (in many places) on automakers selling their product except through a dealer. They also couldn't own their own dealers.

The laws vary widely per state. Some states didn't have such strong protections. Some had effective loopholes--an automaker could sell their own cars as long as they never used a third-party dealer. Some have given special permission to Tesla to open a few outlets because they are so new. Some allow ordering online. Some allow Tesla to operate a showroom where they can show you a car without giving you any way to buy it. The remaining allow importing a car from out of state (always allowed due to the Interstate Commerce Clause).

So it's just been an immense ongoing battle. The dealer lobbies are quite powerful, particularly at the state level which is all that matters here. Tesla does seem to be slowly making ground, though. The laws aren't defensible today and so I think it's just a matter of time.
  #58  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:49 AM
Isamu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Osaka
Posts: 6,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Back in the old, old days, ....
Thank you. fascinating.
  #59  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:57 AM
GMANCANADA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 437
Example of Teslaís challenges: Ongoing legal battles with Texas on selling and now servicing.

https://qz.com/1574917/texas-may-pas...-its-own-cars/

If I was Texan, Iíd be embarrassed by this sort if shit in 2019. They look like a bunch of backward idiots. But oil money speaks loud down there.
  #60  
Old 10-17-2019, 07:14 AM
Machine Elf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Challenger Deep
Posts: 12,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Holy crap! That's infuriating!

How are they even defining "foreign vehicle"? Lots of Fords are made overseas, and Toyotas are made in Tennessee. Is it actually "cars with foreign sounding names" or "cars not made by GM or Ford" which are banned?
Meh. Their place, their rules. "Owners of foreign vehicles" is not a protected class, so they're free to make a rule against such vehicles parking on their premises.

I suspect the term 'foreign vehicle" was a lot more clear 30-40 years ago, when that sign was probably first put up and when any given car was made entirely inside or entirely outside the US. But you're right, "foreign vehicle" is a much more ambiguous term lately.
  #61  
Old 10-17-2019, 08:05 AM
Shoeless's Avatar
Shoeless is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Sunflower State
Posts: 7,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkVader View Post
Some of it may be back splash from the holier than thou attitude that many prius drivers are commonly reported to have (which I've never encountered) and the style of driving that some prius drivers employ trying to get every last possible linear inch out of a charge, starting slow, driving slow, decelerating lÚooong before you have to. This I havr encountered. Asshole gave me the finger as I went around him the first chance I could and I imagine that finger got a good workout during that morning rush hour. So yeah, ev drivers have a bad rep thanks to rumors and bad driving practices during the busiest times of day for traffic
I passed a Prius yesterday that was going about 50 on a 70 mph stretch of highway, causing traffic to back up as everyone going the "normal" speed was trying to get around. The license plate on the Prius read "SLOWDWN". I yelled "Speed up!" as I passed it.

As for Teslas, I saw one of those as well on my drive yesterday and thought it was pretty cool. They're still a rare enough sight around here that I get kind of excited when I see one.
__________________
"We can all sink or we all float
'Cuz we're all in the same big boat"

- The Police, "One World"
  #62  
Old 10-17-2019, 09:30 AM
jz78817 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Under Oveur & over Unger
Posts: 12,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
The rise of EVs invalidates a big chunk of their experience base.
I don't know why people keep asserting this as though it's gospel. I only ever hear it from Tesla fans who claim it's true because of course it is.
  #63  
Old 10-17-2019, 10:48 AM
Really Not All That Bright is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 68,519
It also doesn't make sense because the major automakers have been experimenting with electric vehicles since long before Tesla was a thing. The Nissan Leaf has sold better than every Tesla model combined. Tesla is just the most successful electric-only manufacturer.

Building a car is not difficult, and doesn't require an "experience base." Pretty much everyone is building the same two-liter direct-injection four-cylinder turbo engine now. If you wanted to start building one yourself, you just need a couple of engineers from Ford or VW or Fiat or Honda or whoever, or you could just source one from one of those companies, or a third party seller like Ricardo. Almost nobody builds their own transmissions; Borg-Warner and Getrag and Xtrac and Aisin do it for them. Automakers' experience base is in building very large products to low tolerances and efficiently as possible. That's it. Building very large consumer goods in high volumes is difficult, and not coincidentally that's the part that Tesla isn't very good at.
__________________
This can only end in tears.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 10-17-2019 at 10:50 AM.
  #64  
Old 10-17-2019, 11:51 AM
saucywench is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: The road to Shambala
Posts: 892
I don't believe it's a Tesla thing. Look at the culprits,..it's almost invariably a fat-assed slob of a white woman vandalizing cars, stealing Christmas decorations, stealing packages, etc. Once in a while it's a black woman, or an hispanic woman, or a pudgy/fat dude, but they are the exceptions. I've also noticed that in the past the most aggressive, rude drivers tended to be white men in big trucks, now it's mostly fat-assed white women in vans or suvs.

Last edited by saucywench; 10-17-2019 at 11:52 AM.
  #65  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:09 PM
MacTech is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 6,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
I passed a Prius yesterday that was going about 50 on a 70 mph stretch of highway, causing traffic to back up as everyone going the "normal" speed was trying to get around. The license plate on the Prius read "SLOWDWN". I yelled "Speed up!" as I passed it.

As for Teslas, I saw one of those as well on my drive yesterday and thought it was pretty cool. They're still a rare enough sight around here that I get kind of excited when I see one.
I haven't yet encountered the stereotypical "smug" prius driver, however, every prius I have encountered (sadly far, far too many) have had a problem in achieving the speed limit, it's like they were genetically designed to be the slowest modern vehicle on the road, and I have had the unfortunate experience of driving one of those anemic, sluglike transportation appliances....

over the summer, a local electric car club had a "meet and greet" where we could get up close and personal with various electric cars, at first I thought i'd experience hostility driving into the parking lot in my *DIESEL* Golf TDI...Ö

nope, they were pleasant, and actually curious about the TDI, and actually startled that the tailpipe of a diesel car with 50,000+ miles had no carbon or soot on it, it was completely clean...

they had a smattering of Tesla 3's, a couple Bolts, an E-Golf, and a couple Model S's, I was quite impressed and actually pleasantly surprised to discover the Model S was basically a big hatchback and I *love* hatchbacks..., if I had the disposable income, i'd consider a model S

I wasn't as impressed with the 3 as it was a sedan, and I hated the "lets stick an iPad in the dash" style instrument cluster, the S had the MFD integrated more smoothly into the cabin.

My area doesn't have the proper infrastructure for electric cars, otherwise i'd seriously consider one, my local VW dealer does have an E-Golf for sale for around $12K with around 23K on the odometer, so they are getting more affordable, the e-Golf just doesn't have the range I need, my TDI generally can get around 510 miles per tank, the E-golf get around 90-100 miles per charge, a rather drastic difference....

...once the new VW ID series come to the US, it may be an option for me....
__________________
Freakazoid> dumb, Dumb, DUMB!, NEVER tell the villain how to trap you in a cage!
Gutierrez> You probably shouldn't have helped us build it either...
F!> I know, DUMB!
  #66  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:41 PM
CrimeThink is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
The Nissan Leaf has sold better than every Tesla model combined. Tesla is just the most successful electric-only manufacturer. .
The leaf is the best selling car still and your point still stands, but the "every Tesla model combined" part is no longer true. Worldwide Leaf sales are in the 400,000's and Tesla sales are now past 700,000.
  #67  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:42 PM
YamatoTwinkie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
I don't know why people keep asserting this as though it's gospel. I only ever hear it from Tesla fans who claim it's true because of course it is.
Do you disagree that a big chunk of detroit automaker design experience is in categories of engine, ignition system, oil supply, fuel supply, transmission, and exhaust system, or that these experience areas may not transition over cleanly to their EV equivalents?
  #68  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:00 PM
jz78817 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Under Oveur & over Unger
Posts: 12,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Do you disagree that a big chunk of detroit automaker design experience is in categories of engine, ignition system, oil supply, fuel supply, transmission, and exhaust system, or that these experience areas may not transition over cleanly to their EV equivalents?
No, I disagree with the implication that this somehow "threatens" their existence.
  #69  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:04 PM
scr4 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
I don't know why people keep asserting this as though it's gospel. I only ever hear it from Tesla fans who claim it's true because of course it is.
From one article about the GM strike:

Quote:
Not only is the industry grappling with falling consumer demand for cars, its shift to EVs will also cost even more jobs. EVs are simply easier to build and require fewer parts without an engine. The UAW expects the move away from gas engines could cut 35,000 jobs over the next several years, according to a research study conducted by the union last year.

Also see this Wired article.

Last edited by scr4; 10-17-2019 at 02:07 PM.
  #70  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:52 PM
Machine Elf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Challenger Deep
Posts: 12,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Do you disagree that a big chunk of detroit automaker design experience is in categories of engine, ignition system, oil supply, fuel supply, transmission, and exhaust system, or that these experience areas may not transition over cleanly to their EV equivalents?
This is a pretty big one. Tesla's driveline is just a VFD-controlled electric motor and a single-speed gear reduction unit. IC Engines and transmissions require a huge amount of R&D to make them civilized (quiet and smooth), clean (EPA-compliant), and durable, and it takes a huge amount of labor and parts to build them. Hybrid vehicles - even plug-in hybrids - wouldn't have been a cause for concern about job security during the past couple of decades, since they were at least as complex as conventional drivetrain vehicles, but now that pure EVs are on the rise, I'm not surprised to hear that jobs in the auto industry are going to dry up even further.
  #71  
Old 10-17-2019, 03:07 PM
Really Not All That Bright is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 68,519
But nobody is correcting for other factors. Electric vehicles are (at least at the moment) mostly small cars. The US auto market is now mostly dominated by large trucks. Small cars take less manpower to build. Granted, as the plug-in vehicle market expands, it will start to include more large-segment vehicles, but that won't happen overnight.
__________________
This can only end in tears.
  #72  
Old 10-17-2019, 04:17 PM
YamatoTwinkie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
No, I disagree with the implication that this somehow "threatens" their existence.
I think that any industry that undergoes a major upheaval (such as internal combustion -> EV ) such that a large chunk of all the legacy titan's core competencies become obsolete, there's going to be some growing pains from the transition. New competitors are going to enter the market, as the previously insurmountable "head start" that the legacy titans maintained (due to all of that built up institutional knowledge) starts to evaporate, all of those highly paid, specialized engineers and technicians either need to get retrained from scratch or laid off, and all of the specialized infrastructure and tooling is swapped out. This is obviously a threat.

It may not be much of one, depending on how flexible the company is, how well they've planned for the eventual transition, and how much money they have to throw at the problem to shore up any shortcomings. The threat still exists.
  #73  
Old 10-17-2019, 04:36 PM
Machine Elf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Challenger Deep
Posts: 12,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
I think that any industry that undergoes a major upheaval (such as internal combustion -> EV ) such that a large chunk of all the legacy titan's core competencies become obsolete, there's going to be some growing pains from the transition. New competitors are going to enter the market, as the previously insurmountable "head start" that the legacy titans maintained (due to all of that built up institutional knowledge) starts to evaporate, all of those highly paid, specialized engineers and technicians either need to get retrained from scratch or laid off, and all of the specialized infrastructure and tooling is swapped out. This is obviously a threat.
See disruptive innovation.

The advent of MP3s was a disruptive innovation for the music industry.

The advent of streaming video was a disruptive innovation for the brick-and-mortar movie rental industry.

And yes, EVs are a disruptive innovation for the auto industry.
  #74  
Old 10-17-2019, 04:38 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
That's the one I was going to link to. The unions themselves are worried about the transition and think it will cost tens of thousands of jobs. It's hardly just Tesla fanboys.
  #75  
Old 10-17-2019, 05:29 PM
swampspruce's Avatar
swampspruce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Cool Pool
Posts: 4,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
But nobody is correcting for other factors. Electric vehicles are (at least at the moment) mostly small cars. The US auto market is now mostly dominated by large trucks. Small cars take less manpower to build. Granted, as the plug-in vehicle market expands, it will start to include more large-segment vehicles, but that won't happen overnight.
Rivian/Ford/GM and Bollinger have that base covered.

I'm not sure it really takes much less manpower to build a small car vs a larger one. In some cases it's easier to get stuff put together when you have more room to work.
__________________
Life is an economy. Where everything must be traded for something else and the value of all things rise and fall with the amount of attention and effort you put into them. -Mark Manson

Last edited by swampspruce; 10-17-2019 at 05:30 PM.
  #76  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:47 AM
steadicam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17

tesluh


[QUOTE=echoreply;21918716]I tell people the Tesla is an American muscle car. That is usually met with skepticism, but the only things it's missing are a V8 rumble and smokey donuts.

And, Musk is a smug ass.[/QUOTE
It is not a muscle it is a technologic wonder that is fast due to the electric motors but has the panache of a cafeteria tray. Still I don't cotton to people vandalizing anyone's car for their political beliefs or their aesthetic choices...

I think Tesla are way over blown for what you get and many of us think they are butt ugly especially the 35k one. The also use no union labor, which cracks me up thatmy brethren in the left will abandon their Union sisters and brothers for a cool car and status. Hurray for me and f you. There are loads of great electric and hybrid cars out there. Tesla aint one of them. They had the highest worker injury rate in 2017 <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwij_pOIkKblAhVDKH0KHealAw8QFjAGegQ IBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2017%2F5%2F24%2F15681472%2Ftesla-model-3-electric-car-factory-injury-rate-worker-safety&usg=AOvVaw13zmEKFtS2QDGA7veO2LKg> And have among the highest warranty costs (due to poor quality and part to a non union workforce.) <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-warranty/high-warranty-costs-reflect-teslas-struggle-with-quality-idUSKCN0XO1M3>
Meanwhile for less than a third of the cost, I purchased a Volt which I have almost 80k trouble free miles. Greater range and I am not limited to where there are plug in stations nor am I concerned that my car will be vandalized for being boosh wah. Meanwhile I can still keep my 2005 Jag in the garage with 105k of trouble free miles. Which is faster, sexier and handles away better than a Tesla.
Oh btw is Tesla making money yet? I was supposed to be profitable um like 3 years ago. Just sayin'
  #77  
Old 10-18-2019, 02:45 PM
Capn Carl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 316
[QUOTE=steadicam;21923894]
Quote:
Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
I tell people the Tesla is an American muscle car. That is usually met with skepticism, but the only things it's missing are a V8 rumble and smokey donuts.

And, Musk is a smug ass.[/QUOTE
It is not a muscle it is a technologic wonder that is fast due to the electric motors but has the panache of a cafeteria tray. Still I don't cotton to people vandalizing anyone's car for their political beliefs or their aesthetic choices...

I think Tesla are way over blown for what you get and many of us think they are butt ugly especially the 35k one. The also use no union labor, which cracks me up thatmy brethren in the left will abandon their Union sisters and brothers for a cool car and status. Hurray for me and f you. There are loads of great electric and hybrid cars out there. Tesla aint one of them. They had the highest worker injury rate in 2017 <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwij_pOIkKblAhVDKH0KHealAw8QFjAGegQ IBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2017%2F5%2F24%2F15681472%2Ftesla-model-3-electric-car-factory-injury-rate-worker-safety&usg=AOvVaw13zmEKFtS2QDGA7veO2LKg> And have among the highest warranty costs (due to poor quality and part to a non union workforce.) <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-warranty/high-warranty-costs-reflect-teslas-struggle-with-quality-idUSKCN0XO1M3>
Meanwhile for less than a third of the cost, I purchased a Volt which I have almost 80k trouble free miles. Greater range and I am not limited to where there are plug in stations nor am I concerned that my car will be vandalized for being boosh wah. Meanwhile I can still keep my 2005 Jag in the garage with 105k of trouble free miles. Which is faster, sexier and handles away better than a Tesla.
Oh btw is Tesla making money yet? I was supposed to be profitable um like 3 years ago. Just sayin'
Which model 2005 Jag? I canít think of one that could outperform the AWD Teslas.
  #78  
Old 10-18-2019, 02:51 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. •
Posts: 12,857
[QUOTE=Capn Carl;21924328]
Quote:
Originally Posted by steadicam View Post

Which model 2005 Jag? I canít think of one that could outperform the AWD Teslas.
Let me add a shout out for my 2019 Jaguar iPace AWD EV. I'm not sure it can match a Tesla down to the split second, but I think it's pretty close.
  #79  
Old 10-18-2019, 02:58 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 23,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by steadicam View Post
Oh btw is Tesla making money yet? I was supposed to be profitable um like 3 years ago. Just sayin'
Yup. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/24/...e-value-report
  #80  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:30 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
Let me add a shout out for my 2019 Jaguar iPace AWD EV. I'm not sure it can match a Tesla down to the split second, but I think it's pretty close.
If I ever decided to abandon my obsession with the feel and sound of my ICE cars, I'd go with the iPace before a Tesla. But 'refueling' logistics would have to improve dramatically.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #81  
Old 10-18-2019, 03:43 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. •
Posts: 12,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
If I ever decided to abandon my obsession with the feel and sound of my ICE cars, I'd go with the iPace before a Tesla. But 'refueling' logistics would have to improve dramatically.
I get that. For me refueling on the road is something I have to think about once or twice a year. I've done it only once since I bought it and it wasn't a big deal (30 minute pit stop, which I used to catch up on my email and stretch my legs). I can imagine if your driving habits are different than mine, it could be an issue.

As for obsessions, over 40 years of driving, I've never been as obsessed (or delighted) with a car like I am with my iPace.
  #82  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:47 PM
Corry El is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
“No vehicles made by a company whose employees are not represented by a union.” Don’t see why that would be “infuriating” to you.
Though that's not what the sign in the Google streetview pictures says, and would also be pretty ambiguous since the assembly plants of the Japanese, German and Korean domiciled manufacturers in their home countries are mainly unionized.

It probably really means cars not branded as GM or Ford (or by some strange convolution considering Fiat to be 'American'), whether it's union workers assembling them (in US/Canada) or not (in Mexico where many Detroit brand cars are assembled and few other places), also not counting parts (a lot non union). Seems kind of silly at this point, but whatever. Anyway I wonder what % of parking lot space in the US signs like that account for, how many 0's after the decimal point in the %?

Back to Tesla, I'd challenge the premise. If you're not going by 'I can find a link' but an actually larger number of cases, I'm not sure I buy a significant wave of vandalism vs. Telsa's because they are Tesla's or EV's (rather than cars or expensive cars). I've never heard of it by word of mouth in real life (in the NY area) nor as a frequent story in non-clickbait non-recreational outrage news outlets.

I find Tesla fanbois on the internet to be pretty annoying sometimes. I admire Musk to some degree but he's a pretty flawed hero overall I think. I'm strongly capitalist but that doesn't mean I'm into CEO cults of personality. I wouldn't absolutely never buy a Tesla. But EV's aren't a practical proposition for me now (at home I'd have to run an extension cord across the sidewalk *when* I can get a space in front of my house; on the long road trips I like an EV would be a PITA, no matter what the fanbois say, lots of out of way routes I've taken have no charging stations, and I don't want to wait the better part of an hour to charge). Also Tesla is not quite a real car company yet in terms of build quality, reliability and product support, though I don't wish them ill in getting there eventually. But obviously (I hope) I don't vandalize people's cars.

Last edited by Corry El; 10-18-2019 at 10:49 PM.
  #83  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:08 PM
Corry El is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
I haven't yet encountered the stereotypical "smug" prius driver, however, every prius I have encountered (sadly far, far too many) have had a problem in achieving the speed limit, it's like they were genetically designed to be the slowest modern vehicle on the road, and I have had the unfortunate experience of driving one of those anemic, sluglike transportation appliances....
Maybe it's just what one notices more, but I generally notice Prius' going fast and wonder about the implications of 'saving the planet' while driving at speeds where air resistance proportional to V^2 lowers the efficiency of any car. Not that people who buy a Prius necessarily believe they are saving the planet, and they can go slow or fast as they please as far as I care, as long as safely.

I'm a little sensitive too probably to 'X brand drivers' stereotypes as a BMW owner. In either local congested traffic or multi-lane highways I drive relatively slowly in my M2, and Prii pass me all the time. And I think I could prove with video I'm a more courteous than average driver. On two lane curvy roads where it's worth going fast, I sometimes go pretty fast.
  #84  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:00 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 47,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
Maybe it's just what one notices more, but I generally notice Prius' going fast and wonder about the implications of 'saving the planet' while driving at speeds where air resistance proportional to V^2 lowers the efficiency of any car. Not that people who buy a Prius necessarily believe they are saving the planet, and they can go slow or fast as they please as far as I care, as long as safely.

I'm a little sensitive too probably to 'X brand drivers' stereotypes as a BMW owner. In either local congested traffic or multi-lane highways I drive relatively slowly in my M2, and Prii pass me all the time. And I think I could prove with video I'm a more courteous than average driver. On two lane curvy roads where it's worth going fast, I sometimes go pretty fast.
I have a Prius, and I have no problem going 80 (which is keeping up with traffic) down I5 on the way to LA. And I still get great gas mileage doing it.
What I do notice is that some people think I will go slowly, but they learn otherwise pretty quickly.
Someday I'm going to finish my song "Hot Rod Prius" to the tune of "Hot Rod Lincoln."

Now I live in a place with so many Prii that in 2008 someone said that they were going to put a McCain sticker on their silver Prius to distinguish it from all the Silver Prii with Obama stickers in just about every parking lot. I know what he was talking about.
  #85  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:51 PM
dtilque is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: My own private Nogero
Posts: 7,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Someday I'm going to finish my song "Hot Rod Prius" to the tune of "Hot Rod Lincoln."
You need to find a word that rhymes with Prius, to replace "Lincoln" in the best line of that song.

Quote:
Now I live in a place with so many Prii that in 2008 someone said that they were going to put a McCain sticker on their silver Prius to distinguish it from all the Silver Prii with Obama stickers in just about every parking lot. I know what he was talking about.
I used to look at license plates of cars, but a few months ago I changed to looking at logos. I soon noticed that in most parts of town, there were more Prii on the road than all models of Chevy cars; in some areas, even more than all Chevys combined including trucks.
  #86  
Old 10-19-2019, 03:22 PM
Ike Witt's Avatar
Ike Witt is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lost in the mists of time
Posts: 15,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Few buckets of Tesla hate here, some justified:

1. Teslas are seen as luxury vehicles with luxury pricetags (conspicuous consumption), and are targeted accordingly.

2. Teslas are perceived as being driven by smug, holier-than-thou, leftie environmental types.

3. "Tesla fans" often have major superiority complexes, and rabidly attack any perceived criticism of vehicle performance, manufacturing quality, or prophet Elon Musk, and there is a predicable counter-reaction to that.

4. Tesla, and EV's in general are new and different, and people are scared of new and different. And the media especially likes to cover failures of anything new and different, hence why a single Tesla vehicle fire will make national news.

5. Tesla's CEO is someone that is impulsive, eccentric, and self-promoting, and tends to make promises that are not delivered upon or are years late.

6. Tesla, as a company, seems to have some shady accounting practices, lots of employee burnout, and its stock price is crazy overvalued relative to its actual production.

7. Teslas benefit from government subsidies, even though they are essentially luxury vehicles.
Are you saying Elon Musk should run for President?
  #87  
Old 10-21-2019, 10:50 AM
Capn Carl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
Maybe it's just what one notices more, but I generally notice Prius' going fast and wonder about the implications of 'saving the planet' while driving at speeds where air resistance proportional to V^2 lowers the efficiency of any car. Not that people who buy a Prius necessarily believe they are saving the planet, and they can go slow or fast as they please as far as I care, as long as safely.

I'm a little sensitive too probably to 'X brand drivers' stereotypes as a BMW owner. In either local congested traffic or multi-lane highways I drive relatively slowly in my M2, and Prii pass me all the time. And I think I could prove with video I'm a more courteous than average driver. On two lane curvy roads where it's worth going fast, I sometimes go pretty fast.
Couldnít one extend that argument, and expect all M2 owners to use all 365hp, at all times?
  #88  
Old 10-21-2019, 11:55 AM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pork Rind View Post
Icing on the cake is that my solar panels produce more electricity than we use.
Where do you live that the A/C doesn't pull more than the solar cells produce?
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l
  #89  
Old 10-22-2019, 07:45 AM
Capn Carl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Where do you live that the A/C doesn't pull more than the solar cells produce?
I donít know where Pork Rind lives, but here in Phoenix, itís not hard to fit enough panels on a roof to cover your electrical bill. We have 22 panels, and our annual cost for electricity is about zero. If we buy an EV, we expect to add panels to make up the electricity used to charge the car.

Iíll bet the AC, when running, uses more than the panels produce, but the AC isnít on all day, and not at all from ~Oct-April.
  #90  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:05 AM
YamatoTwinkie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
on the long road trips I like an EV would be a PITA, no matter what the fanbois say, lots of out of way routes I've taken have no charging stations
Not doubting you, there are substantial holes in the supercharger map for the US, especially around the dakotas, montana, central wyoming, eastern nevada, northern arkansas, and the OK panhandle, but these are gradually getting filled in.
  #91  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:16 AM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. •
Posts: 12,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Not doubting you, there are substantial holes in the supercharger map for the US, especially around the dakotas, montana, central wyoming, eastern nevada, northern arkansas, and the OK panhandle, but these are gradually getting filled in.
I know of at least four superchargers near me that are not on that map. While Iím sure there are still gaps, for most people there wouldnít be a problem. On the other hand, EVs are not right for everyone.
  #92  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:36 AM
Nava is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 43,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampspruce View Post
I'm not sure it really takes much less manpower to build a small car vs a larger one. In some cases it's easier to get stuff put together when you have more room to work.
What manpower? It's mainly bots on the assembly line, the humans are managing and maintaining the bots.
__________________
Some people knew how to kill a conversation. Cura, on the other hand, could make it wish it had never been born.
  #93  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:39 AM
StraightTalk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
I'm on the same planet you're on.

I've described the reports of Tesla vandalism that I've seen.

As to left-wingers hating Musk, I have no idea. I'm about as left-wing as you can get. While Musk seems to be a bit of a jerk personally, I really like what he's doing with Tesla, and I admire anyone who can get something like that off the ground and turn it into reality.

Uber is another story. I do hate Uber.
Why do you think he is a bit of a jerk?
  #94  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:02 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,682
Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightTalk View Post
Why do you think he is a bit of a jerk?
Are you joking? He's being sued for defamation right now and in his defense, he said "I'm a fucking idiot" for calling some random dude a pedophile.

Of course he's a jerk. A huge jerk.
  #95  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:31 PM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
This. Pretty sure it's a class-related thing. The Model S was the first Tesla to really make it big, and it was known to be an expensive and unique car. Expensive+unique = "that asshole thinks he's better than me, and ima take him down a notch."
I'm guessing that having an electric/hybrid car like a Tesla adds a certain... potlatch(?) style element to the car to some people suffering the sour grapes that a regular gas engine might not.

I mean, I can see someone being bitter and pissy that they're driving a shitty 2003 Sentra, while you're driving a late model luxury car, and I can see it infuriating them even more that you have chosen to get the electric model because you have money to burn on that sort of (frivolous, in their minds) environmental thing, while they're having problems making ends meet.

I don't see too many people having such political animosity that electric cars would anger them- that seems too stupid to be believable.
  #96  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:41 PM
Grey is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 6,854
Panache - flamboyant style. A potlatch is a first nations/indigenous american ceremony.
__________________
"When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it." : Bernard Bailey
  #97  
Old 10-23-2019, 01:20 PM
Ludovic is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: America's Wing
Posts: 30,824
Maybe the jealous think that Tesla owners should instead be competitively giving them away and even destroying them in an ostentatious display of wealth.
  #98  
Old 10-23-2019, 01:33 PM
Mallard is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 421
Here in Western Canada we have cattle producers fighting fast food restaurants over the sale of veggie burgers. Same silly mentality.
  #99  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:00 PM
swampspruce's Avatar
swampspruce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Cool Pool
Posts: 4,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
What manpower? It's mainly bots on the assembly line, the humans are managing and maintaining the bots.
Exactly. I'm sure Balthizar or jz would know more but AIUI building an F-150 takes roughly the same amount of time as (to stay with Ford, a Focus or Fiesta). I was addressing RNATB's point that despite America's obsession with large trucks, building costs aren't really a contributing factor.
__________________
Life is an economy. Where everything must be traded for something else and the value of all things rise and fall with the amount of attention and effort you put into them. -Mark Manson
  #100  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:28 PM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Panache - flamboyant style. A potlatch is a first nations/indigenous american ceremony.
I meant potlatch after all; basically the idea that you're SO rich that you can afford to effectively burn money buying an electric car vs. the less expensive conventionally powered luxury car.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017