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  #51  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Lamoral View Post
I think Trump is way too afraid of bungling a war, to try to get involved in one. He has enough of a sense of self-preservation to know that it's too risky for him to attempt when the consequences of it backfiring are so severe.
I've never seen any signs that Trump worries about the possibility of him doing anything wrong. Even after he's done something wrong. He's very self-confident.
  #52  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:25 PM
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Some people have a strangely low or paranoid view of the average American voter. That despite somehow all those military adventures in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, and war fatigue, and 4,000 American troops dead, and thousands more wounded, and trillions of dollars spent, and all that PTSD, and all that negative media coverage, and Trump's low approval rating, ................that somehow Trump launching a war to seize Venezuelan or Iranian oil would lead to millions of voters being like "Aw YEAHH" and enthusiastically vote him into reelection.
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:26 PM
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Trump is effectively a draft dodger with no real military support. A war won't help him much against a moderate Dem. Bush carried a more military air and had a Hawk leader for his VP puppetmaster. FDR was a very different time and a very different war.



The crime spree by illegal immigrants would have to be real and not just a Fox News pushing an agenda, but if for some reason an illegal immigrant crime spree really materialized, that would end up helping Trump.

You don’t think the military industrial complex finds Trump a “useful idiot” in the respect that the republicans in the senate do?



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  #54  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:27 PM
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Some people have a strangely low or paranoid view of the average American voter.
I used to have a low opinion of the average American voter. I now have an abysmally low opinion. Like through the Earth's mantle, heading for the core.
  #55  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:36 PM
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You don’t think the military industrial complex finds Trump a “useful idiot” in the respect that the republicans in the senate do?
Why do they need a useful idiot? There are plenty of competent people who are happy to promote military spending. They're probably more reliable than somebody like Trump and less likely to get involved in some public scandal.
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:41 PM
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Why do they need a useful idiot? There are plenty of competent people who are happy to promote military spending. They're probably more reliable than somebody like Trump and less likely to get involved in some public scandal.
If anything, Trump's mercurial nature makes him a greater threat to the military-industrial complex. He's likelier to say crazy things like "Let's cut our defense budget by $300 billion next year" than any mainstream D or R. Even Democrats like Obama promoted slow, steady increases in defense spending year on year by year.
  #57  
Old 12-21-2019, 08:08 PM
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Man, if the U.S. is so full of suckers and chumps that ideas as simple as this would work, how the hell did you keep your country going for as long as it has? It sounds like you should have devolved into Civil War II decades ago.
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  #58  
Old 12-21-2019, 08:59 PM
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Man, if the U.S. is so full of suckers and chumps that ideas as simple as this would work, how the hell did you keep your country going for as long as it has? It sounds like you should have devolved into Civil War II decades ago.
There was at least enough faith in 'the system' that the smart guys - aka the elites - more or less knew what they were doing in government. People these days probably believe that Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson could be president, or their local bartender. More and more people believe that the system is hopelessly corrupt. There have always been, and always been, a health population of morons participating in a democracy, but it's the cynicism and detachment from reality that makes their ignorance that much more potent.
  #59  
Old 12-21-2019, 09:42 PM
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Which would be far more than offset by the number of swing/light-red voters who would be repelled by such a war.
Let us hope so.
I believe the testosterone poisoned Southern voters would go for him if he were "kickin' A-rab ass".
  #60  
Old 12-21-2019, 09:48 PM
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Let us hope so.
I believe the testosterone poisoned Southern voters would go for him if he were "kickin' A-rab ass".
I agree with Velocity: I think Trump is a shit talker, but I think he wants no part of war. He understands that he will get blamed for dead troops -- say what you want about his intelligence and his sanity at times, but he understands that much.

Besides, I've never gotten the sense that Trump was into remaking the world into America's image; he's more into remaking America into his image.
  #61  
Old 12-21-2019, 09:52 PM
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I agree with Velocity: I think Trump is a shit talker, but I think he wants no part of war. He understands that he will get blamed for dead troops -- say what you want about his intelligence and his sanity at times, but he understands that much.

Besides, I've never gotten the sense that Trump was into remaking the world into America's image; he's more into remaking America into his image.
I hope that you and Velocity are correct.
  #62  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:10 PM
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I hope that you and Velocity are correct.
The danger with Trump isn't deliberately getting into a conflict; it's getting into a conflict with a major power unexpectedly, such as with North Korea and Iran. I don't think Trump wants to get into a conflict with either, but there are some unique and real dangers with Trump at the helm:

* Trump has effectively neutered the diplomatic corps.

* Trump has hired and relies on 'Yes men' for input.

* Trump believes that being unpredictable is an advantage (in reality, it's dangerous as hell)

* With North Korea, he has built up expectations of possible successes, but since he has fundamentally failed to understand what Kim wants, there is a real risk that he gets embarrassed in a big way, which will put pressure on him to do something 'impressive' in response. I only see escalation from there.

* With Iran, he has forced Iran to commit to a path toward nuclearization, which is probably the opposite of what he thought his intense sanctions would achieve. What happens when, despite his pressure, Iran achieves a fully operational nuclear bomb or missile? Moreover, what if Israel preempts us and just attacks Iran because they're not waiting around for us to stop them?

Last edited by asahi; 12-21-2019 at 10:10 PM.
  #63  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:29 PM
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* With Iran, he has forced Iran to commit to a path toward nuclearization, which is probably the opposite of what he thought his intense sanctions would achieve.
I thought his goal was to get cheers at his rallies by shitting on an accomplishment of Obama and to that end, it was a success. I doubt Trump cares at all how Iran responds. What have they done for him lately?
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  #64  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:21 PM
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Keeping in mind that since his name first popped up as a possible candidate people have been underestimating what the Asshole-In-Chief is willing to do and say to stay in the headlines, the same way they have underestimated what the Russians have been willing to do to stir the shit, I can see where the Russians set up a third party as an aggressor using just enough evidence to give Trump the excuse to play PATRIOTIC HERO!, but just iffy enough to not quite convince others. Trump gets his PR, and the Russians have stirred the political shit once again.

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  #65  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:36 PM
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I thought his goal was to get cheers at his rallies by shitting on an accomplishment of Obama and to that end, it was a success. I doubt Trump cares at all how Iran responds. What have they done for him lately?
He may not care, but his party has staked out the claim that Iran must not have nukes, and so has Israel. It doesn't matter if he cares about Iran or not - others care.
  #66  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:01 AM
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He may not care, but his party has staked out the claim that Iran must not have nukes, and so has Israel. It doesn't matter if he cares about Iran or not - others care.
Great, so we can count on Republicans to abandon Trump in large numbers, then, considering how important this issue is to them. Why, he might even be challenged in the primaries.
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  #67  
Old 12-22-2019, 07:36 AM
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Trump can send cruise missiles to Iran without any US casualties. I suppose dropping bombs would be more risky but he could do that too.
  #68  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:33 AM
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Sorry, I don't follow. I think we're talking about Hurricane Maria? That was a natural disaster that he fumbled, it isn't a terrorist strike.

Letting down the US citizens of PR doesn't touch his base or those ignorant and not knowing PR residents are US citizens. It barely moved his support at all and in no lasting way. I can't figure out how that equates to a terrorist strike.

I don't believe a terrorist strike will favor him.
He didn't just "bungle" PR. He maliciously abandoned it, blamed its people for the disaster, criticized its elected officials who WERE trying to help people, and wound up causing the deaths of thousands of American citizens. He demonstrated that he can't or won't handle a disaster even with the full resources of the United States of America at his fingertips. He spent weeks disparaging PR, its citizens, and its efforts to save itself.

He demonstrated that he is beyond useless, he is actively destructive and vicious, and a natural disaster is not nearly as bad as a war. It's terrifying to imagine how he would freak out at a war, but I bet he thinks a war would save him.
  #69  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:50 AM
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Great, so we can count on Republicans to abandon Trump in large numbers, then, considering how important this issue is to them. Why, he might even be challenged in the primaries.
I don't mean his party's voters, but the party itself has staked out that claim, and he's going to look weak if it NK and Iran end up becoming fully nuclear powers.

Could he and the GOP find a way to spin out of it? Sure, I mean, the GOP used to be the party of free trade and Trump forced them into becoming the party of trade barriers. Go figure.

I don't think there's necessarily a single issue that can hurt Trump -- except for Jesus and the economy, that is. I don't think a nuke-tipped NK or Iran would do him in, but I think it would make him look weak, which is not a position an American position wants to be in, especially considering how they banged on the "Obama's a pussy" drum for all these years.

Last edited by asahi; 12-22-2019 at 09:51 AM.
  #70  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:52 AM
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I've never seen any signs that Trump worries about the possibility of him doing anything wrong. Even after he's done something wrong. He's very self-confident.
There's an article in the NYT, I think, where Trump is booed at Trump Tower in the presence of several people, and he just brushes it off by saying he heard cheers, not boos. I think that was pure bravado. He's an odd combination of raging insecurity and jaw-dropping arrogance, but he has a whole bunch of obvious tells when he's lying. The big question is, Is he lying to himself and does he believe those lies? or is he just a common con man, lying to his marks? His fans don't care about the lies because they want them to be true, and they feel it's an injustice that they're not true. But what does Trump believe? If he thinks he's telling what he feels should be true were it not for whatever imaginary conspiracy Fox has dreamed up that day, then it's entirely possible that makes him feel he's. All that self-pitying claptrap about "witch hunts" certainly suggests it.

(And how did "witch hunt" switch from "innocent women being falsely accused by evil men and then being executed" into "Probably guilty men being accurately accused by (at least some) women they've hurt but whining to the high heavens about getting hoist by their own petard"? Plus, Trump whines about "lynching" but the closest he'll get to that is if that long, long tie of his gets slammed in the door of Air Force One.)

Well, THAT was a new record. Log in, get logged out, log in AGAIN, get logged out, and so on.
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Last edited by margin; 12-22-2019 at 09:53 AM. Reason: you tell me
  #71  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:56 AM
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You don’t think the military industrial complex finds Trump a “useful idiot” in the respect that the republicans in the senate do?
You don't think the military industrial complex finds any Republican President "useful"? They're not beholden to Trump over other Repubs, just over Dems and they won't mind a Biden all that much, though Sanders & Warren probably worry them.
  #72  
Old 12-22-2019, 10:57 AM
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There's an article in the NYT, I think, where Trump is booed at Trump Tower in the presence of several people, and he just brushes it off by saying he heard cheers, not boos. I think that was pure bravado. He's an odd combination of raging insecurity and jaw-dropping arrogance, but he has a whole bunch of obvious tells when he's lying. The big question is, Is he lying to himself and does he believe those lies? or is he just a common con man, lying to his marks? His fans don't care about the lies because they want them to be true, and they feel it's an injustice that they're not true. But what does Trump believe? If he thinks he's telling what he feels should be true were it not for whatever imaginary conspiracy Fox has dreamed up that day, then it's entirely possible that makes him feel he's. All that self-pitying claptrap about "witch hunts" certainly suggests it.

(And how did "witch hunt" switch from "innocent women being falsely accused by evil men and then being executed" into "Probably guilty men being accurately accused by (at least some) women they've hurt but whining to the high heavens about getting hoist by their own petard"? Plus, Trump whines about "lynching" but the closest he'll get to that is if that long, long tie of his gets slammed in the door of Air Force One.)

Well, THAT was a new record. Log in, get logged out, log in AGAIN, get logged out, and so on.
Everything that I recall reading about his childhood suggests that Trump is someone who grew up palpably terrified of disappointing his father (i.e. failing, losing). I think Donald Trump learned not to love people, and instead came to view people as transactions or means of transactions. He was conditioned to be a raging sociopath. Under the tutelage of Roy Cohn, he developed a predator or prey, live or die, kill or be killed psyche. His pathological lying - to the point of lying to himself and living in an alternative reality - is symptomatic of this conditioning. It's a reflex: "Wait, they just booed -- no, fuck, they didn't, they praised me, and fuck them if they did boo me because my people will cheer louder than they boo, so there!"
  #73  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:41 PM
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Man, if the U.S. is so full of suckers and chumps that ideas as simple as this would work, how the hell did you keep your country going for as long as it has? It sounds like you should have devolved into Civil War II decades ago.
It doesn't have to work per se, it just has to work with a relative handful of voters because, these days that's enough to tip an election. I would expect anything to be done is the final days of October so people won't have the time to process it intellectually, just viscerally.
  #74  
Old 12-22-2019, 01:39 PM
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Well seeing how Putin's last 9/11 went...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...tment_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tment_bombings

I wonder though. If this exact attack was carried out today, with the same bumbling done by people related to trump rather than the FSB, would it be swept under the rug just as easily? I'd like to think that the presence of the internet would make such a thing impossible.
We might be at the point that the GOP is so far in lalaland that such an attack could simply be blamed on the Democrats.
  #75  
Old 12-23-2019, 11:05 AM
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Keeping in mind that since his name first popped up as a possible candidate people have been underestimating what the Asshole-In-Chief is willing to do and say to stay in the headlines, the same way they have underestimated what the Russians have been willing to do to stir the shit, I can see where the Russians set up a third party as an aggressor using just enough evidence to give Trump the excuse to play PATRIOTIC HERO!, but just iffy enough to not quite convince others. Trump gets his PR, and the Russians have stirred the political shit once again.
I think Conservatives were intrigued by having a non-politician running for office. Then, when the primaries were over they turned out in droves to vote for not-Hillary. Hatred of Hillary was the primary factor, not Trump-magic.
  #76  
Old 12-24-2019, 09:40 PM
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Real life has kept me away from posting for a while. I did not intend to post and run.

I am relieved to see that many people think that my Reichstag Fire scenario is unlikely.

But what about how a unified USA would not be in Putin's interests? If the USA were unified in a way that they (we) implemented policies favorable to Putin, would that not be the best possible outcome (from his perspective)? Sherrerd pointed out that a war in Venezuela could cause the USA to pull assets from Europe. Putin would undoubtedly like that. If the USA's attention is suitably diverted, then Putin and his Russia could get away with all sorts of things. Ukraine would likely be invaded. Who is going to stop him?

Is there any doubt that GWBush benefited from the actual 9/11 attacks? He was able to use that event as the justification to go to Iraq. Trump is even more willing to lie about all manner of things and he has an audience already primed to believe whatever BS he shovels at them.
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  #77  
Old 12-24-2019, 10:34 PM
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Real life has kept me away from posting for a while. I did not intend to post and run.

I am relieved to see that many people think that my Reichstag Fire scenario is unlikely.

But what about how a unified USA would not be in Putin's interests? If the USA were unified in a way that they (we) implemented policies favorable to Putin, would that not be the best possible outcome (from his perspective)? Sherrerd pointed out that a war in Venezuela could cause the USA to pull assets from Europe. Putin would undoubtedly like that. If the USA's attention is suitably diverted, then Putin and his Russia could get away with all sorts of things. Ukraine would likely be invaded. Who is going to stop him?

Is there any doubt that GWBush benefited from the actual 9/11 attacks? He was able to use that event as the justification to go to Iraq. Trump is even more willing to lie about all manner of things and he has an audience already primed to believe whatever BS he shovels at them.
I think Putin is unlikely to try anything "kinetic" - an actual shooting war or anything. What I think Russia might do is continue trolling and fake-newsing like it did in 2016, but this time on a much more sophisticated, convincing scale.

Up to this point, a lot of right-wing fake news has been the absolutely laughable, nonsensical kind - like the Pizza Parlor child trafficking ring, etc. I think we could see some much subtler, much more convincing and believable stuff instead. Moscow's had 3 years to practice and hone things.
  #78  
Old 12-24-2019, 10:45 PM
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The Russians like their boy. If they can keep him in office, so much the better. So what is a Russian to do?
I don't think Trump is useful enough to the Russians to risk a major geopolitical conflagration. They'll milk him as long as they reasonably can and discard him.

Do not make the mistake of thinking Trump is especially powerful or especially compromised or especially important to the Russians. There are dozens if not a hundred where he came from, not diabolical sleeper agents but ordinary douchebags corrupted by the NRA or some other PAC, just ordinary Republicans willing to advance Russian interests. Or hey, no need to pick on the Republicans, there's Tulsi too.

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I feel all of this is coming together into a massive and highly dramatic strike that could exceed the impact of the 9/11 attacks.
If you think it will take a 9/11 to subvert democracy, you haven't really been paying attention these past couple of years. All it takes is a weasel like Mitch McConnell working every loophole while the media machine moves us along saying "nothing to see, keep moving on" every time a new bombshell hits.

It's all happening now, in slow motion and in plain sight, and they've nearly pulled it off. There's no need for a foreign agent to create a big distraction; we do just fine keeping ourselves distracted.
  #79  
Old 12-26-2019, 06:35 PM
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Up to this point, a lot of right-wing fake news has been the absolutely laughable, nonsensical kind - like the Pizza Parlor child trafficking ring, etc. I think we could see some much subtler, much more convincing and believable stuff instead....
Fake news doesn't have to be believable to be effective. Millions of Americans have now "learned" that fake news is the norm, so they go by their gut. This is why 50 million Americans think Trump is innocent of the impeachment charges: evidence is irrelevant; it's presumed to be fake.
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:39 PM
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The purpose of fake news isn't to get people to believe the fake news, it's to get them to doubt the real news.
  #81  
Old 12-27-2019, 06:30 PM
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The purpose of fake news isn't to get people to believe the fake news, it's to get them to doubt the real news.
That's right. And its further purpose is to get people to throw up their hands and say 'I'm tired of all this and I'm not going to give any more of my attention to politics or politicians, and I'm not going to vote, I'm above all this sick shit, leave me alone with my games and TV and beer and Instagram and I'll be just fine.'

When large numbers of citizens simply check out, that makes things much easier for authoritarian leaders.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:19 PM
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That's right. And its further purpose is to get people to throw up their hands and say 'I'm tired of all this and I'm not going to give any more of my attention to politics or politicians, and I'm not going to vote, I'm above all this sick shit, leave me alone with my games and TV and beer and Instagram and I'll be just fine.'

When large numbers of citizens simply check out, that makes things much easier for authoritarian leaders.
I'm above all this sick shit, leave me alone with my games and TV and beer and Instagram and I'll vote Democratic.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:40 PM
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I'm above all this sick shit, leave me alone with my games and TV and beer and Instagram and I'll vote Democratic.
Okay, great! (but I won't believe you until you show me the sticker).

On a more general note, I see now that I left "porn" off that list.
  #84  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:17 AM
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Up to this point, a lot of right-wing fake news has been the absolutely laughable, nonsensical kind - like the Pizza Parlor child trafficking ring, etc.
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Fake news doesn't have to be believable to be effective.
To septimus's point, never forget a guy intending to save those poor imaginary kids fired a real gun in that real pizza parlor.

Last edited by don't mind me; 12-31-2019 at 02:18 AM.
  #85  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:39 PM
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So, does anyone smell smoke yet? Is Soleimani going to be Franz Ferdinand and touch off WWIII?

As I type this, CNN is reporting that Iran is firing missiles at US forces in Iraq. There seem to be Iraqi casualties. Trump will need to respond lest his supporters see him as weak.

I have heard some comments (prior to today) that if a spectacular event happens in the US, Trump will be blamed for it. I suppose that's a good thing.
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  #86  
Old 01-09-2020, 09:17 AM
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So, does anyone smell smoke yet? Is Soleimani going to be Franz Ferdinand and touch off WWIII?
I would say No.
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As I type this, CNN is reporting that Iran is firing missiles at US forces in Iraq. There seem to be Iraqi casualties.
The CNN report of casualties was fake news. Maybe the story was planted by the Russians.

AFAICT the US Capitol is not burning, martial law has not been declared, the elections are proceeding on schedule, and I have seen no indication that we are about to annex the Sudetenland.
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I have heard some comments (prior to today) that if a spectacular event happens in the US, Trump will be blamed for it. I suppose that's a good thing.
There doesn't seem to have been any spectacular event in the US, at least to date. I am assuming Trump is equally to blame for that.

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  #87  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:14 AM
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What if we had a literal Reichstag Fire and the capitol itself were burned?
still not a literal Reichstag fire. to have a literal Reichstag fire, you'd have to rebuild the old Reichstag and burnt it again.

Last edited by iguanas.com; 01-09-2020 at 10:18 AM.
  #88  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:18 AM
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The purpose of fake news isn't to get people to believe the fake news, it's to get them to doubt the real news.
sometimes to get you to believe the fake news, sometimes to doubt everything, sometimes to fight believers in other fake news, often to confuse news and opinion and nearly always to serve more than one function at the same time.
  #89  
Old 01-09-2020, 09:54 PM
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I would say No. AFAICT the US Capitol is not burning, martial law has not been declared, the elections are proceeding on schedule, and I have seen no indication that we are about to annex the Sudetenland. There doesn't seem to have been any spectacular event in the US, at least to date. I am assuming Trump is equally to blame for that.

Regards,
Shodan
By the time those things were to happen, it would be too late to resist. One must be able to see the ends and resist the beginnings.
  #90  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:05 AM
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I would say No.
The CNN report of casualties was fake news. Maybe the story was planted by the Russians.

AFAICT the US Capitol is not burning, martial law has not been declared, the elections are proceeding on schedule, and I have seen no indication that we are about to annex the Sudetenland. There doesn't seem to have been any spectacular event in the US, at least to date. I am assuming Trump is equally to blame for that.

Regards,
Shodan
Repiblicans are throwing hundreds of thousands of Dem voters off the rolls in Wisconsin and other states.

That's how you get to martial law, but martial law is not the first step.

Last edited by margin; 01-10-2020 at 10:05 AM. Reason: word
  #91  
Old 01-10-2020, 01:10 PM
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The first step towards martial law is when a judge issues a writ of mandamus telling the state agency that it has to follow the laws as written? NAFAICT.

Regards,
Shodan
  #92  
Old 01-10-2020, 04:56 PM
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The first step towards martial law is when a judge issues a writ of mandamus telling the state agency that it has to follow the laws as written? NAFAICT.

Regards,
Shodan

Because following the law is such a concern for this administration.
  #93  
Old 01-10-2020, 05:45 PM
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I am relieved to see that many people think that my Reichstag Fire scenario is unlikely.
I foresaw an equivalent shock, a real or false-flag attack on the US, or a fierce US attack on Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, or San Francisco, a desperate diversion if this POTUS feared his financials would be released, revealing his treasons. He's taken the first step.

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So, does anyone smell smoke yet? Is Soleimani going to be Franz Ferdinand and touch off WWIII?
Immediate WWIII? Not yet, I hope, but it's wag-the-dog time for sure. This POTUS is very frightened - and so should we be. Do not expect him to calmly take his upcoming unarguable exposure as a foreign asset. Do expect him to spew whatever shit he thinks necessary to avoid dying in prison.

Quote:
Thread: This is the thought that keeps me up at night.... Am I wrong?
WWIII isn't what should keep you sleepless. Rather, fear a state of emergency, martial law, and roundups of dissidents. Or fear a coup if he really attempts that.
  #94  
Old 01-10-2020, 06:46 PM
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WWIII isn't what should keep you sleepless. Rather, fear a state of emergency, martial law, and roundups of dissidents. Or fear a coup if he really attempts that.
Any American who actually believes this, has only two rational choices. I mean ONLY TWO rational choices. 1. Start stockpiling weapons, ammunition, and emergency supplies, or 2. Immediately make arrangements to emigrate to another country. Those are your ONLY choices, IF you actually believe what you just said.

If you're not doing it, you don't actually believe it.
  #95  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:41 PM
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Any American who actually believes this, has only two rational choices. I mean ONLY TWO rational choices. 1. Start stockpiling weapons, ammunition, and emergency supplies, or 2. Immediately make arrangements to emigrate to another country. Those are your ONLY choices, IF you actually believe what you just said.

If you're not doing it, you don't actually believe it.
While I agree with you that fearing a roundup of dissidents is a little premature, I would like to ask you:

If someone had described where we are in January of 2020 to you back in January of 2015, would you have believed it was possible to get from there to here in only five years?

I honestly don't think Trump is capable of overthrowing the system and running an authoritarian autocracy, but then, I severely underestimated the degree to which people would support and enable him, too.
  #96  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:07 PM
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Any American who actually believes this, has only two rational choices. I mean ONLY TWO rational choices. 1. Start stockpiling weapons, ammunition, and emergency supplies, or 2. Immediately make arrangements to emigrate to another country. Those are your ONLY choices, IF you actually believe what you just said.

If you're not doing it, you don't actually believe it.
There is a third alternative, that we're not totally rational. Oh, we can be right about the nature and severity of the threat but just refuse, at some level, to actually believe it. Me, I'm 67, I ain't going anywhere. I'm a pretty non-violent type of guy and I'd probably just shoot myself in the foot but if the fit actually does hit the shan, I've got some skills that might be useful.
  #97  
Old 01-11-2020, 07:04 PM
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Any American who actually believes this, has only two rational choices. I mean ONLY TWO rational choices. [...panic...] If you're not doing it, you don't actually believe it.
Did you see the word "believe" anywhere above? I said I FEAR this. Based on the history of this POTUS, and his virulently stubborn protection of his financials. I don't see my FEAR as unreasonable.

But tell us, if he has nothing to hide, what is he hiding, and why? And why dog-wag now?
  #98  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:42 PM
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If that fear is really keeping you from sleeping at night, then I'd say you're just splitting hairs over semantics. Anyone who is actually afraid of this scenario should be immediately making plans to escape it, or resist it, if it happens. Fear is an emotion. It's different from speculation and conjecture.

I'm not a defender of Trump, I hate him. But I also don't think he's anywhere close to bringing about the fascist dystopia that a lot of people claim we are on the road to. He's a shitty president, and he'll eventually be gone and someone else will replace him. I think that Trump's outlandish hyperbole has ironically rubbed off on a lot of his detractors.
  #99  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:53 PM
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If that fear is really keeping you from sleeping at night, then I'd say you're just splitting hairs over semantics. Anyone who is actually afraid of this scenario should be immediately making plans to escape it, or resist it, if it happens. Fear is an emotion. It's different from speculation and conjecture.

I'm not a defender of Trump, I hate him. But I also don't think he's anywhere close to bringing about the fascist dystopia that a lot of people claim we are on the road to. He's a shitty president, and he'll eventually be gone and someone else will replace him. I think that Trump's outlandish hyperbole has ironically rubbed off on a lot of his detractors.
People generally don't fear consequences unless they are immediate and inevitable. Are we now on the brink of a dictatorship? No, but there's no question that we're already losing control of our democracy. Our public confidence in our institutions is perpetually at all-time lows. And half of us aren't even sure if our upcoming elections are going to be safe from foreign intrusion.

Wanna know how a political crisis? Take a democracy that's lacking faith in its own ability to elect leadership that promotes the general welfare and then throw in an economic crisis. See what happens, and then see how the elite (which is getting smaller but more powerful) reacts to that crisis.
  #100  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:18 PM
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I'm not a defender of Trump, I hate him. But I also don't think he's anywhere close to bringing about the fascist dystopia that a lot of people claim we are on the road to. He's a shitty president, and he'll eventually be gone and someone else will replace him. I think that Trump's outlandish hyperbole has ironically rubbed off on a lot of his detractors.
I think the problem is that most people's idea of a problematic country is somewhat cartoonish—an authoritarian dictator-for-life. But it doesn't have to be an Orwellian fascist dystopia to be a crisis.

Personally, I think we're looking at a slow decline in influence and a slow increase in corruption over the short term. It's the long term that's the problem. Trump has shown us some glaring flaws. We keep saying, "yes, but since he's not Hitler, once we have the 2020 elections, the problems will be fixed." But they won't. Gutting the Civil Service and other important agencies is causing problems, and no leader is going to be able to fix them as quickly as they have been broken. So we're looking at a long period of reconstruction, and I don't see anybody willing to admit that's what's necessary, much less lead it. Look at the last three years: nobody has the courage to call Trump out. Do you really think we have a anyone on the horizon capable of leading a lasting change?

Trump isn't so much a supervillain as an incompetent, psychologically problematic boob. But handing that much power to such a person only happens in a system that isn't working, and yes, it has put us on the road to a dystopia. I just think it will be such a gradual slide that we don't notice, just as we don't notice the changes since 2001.
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