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  #101  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:59 PM
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If everyone were required to be all-rounders the recruiting and training system would stop producing players who would be physically incapable of going both ways.

The whole system that includes diet and years of physical training would start producing players that are small enough to run competently and also big enough to block competently, instead of outliers on either end of the spectrum of humanity whose bodies are so extreme as to be capable of only a narrow set of tasks.

The game would also become less physically destructive because you would not have such extreme differences in the build of players tackling and players being tackled.

The sport would tend more toward a sweet spot of above-average human rather than extreme outlying specimens.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 01-17-2020 at 09:00 PM.
  #102  
Old 01-17-2020, 09:16 PM
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The sport would tend more toward a sweet spot of above-average human rather than extreme outlying specimens.
Just a different set of extreme outliers.

Last edited by running coach; 01-17-2020 at 09:16 PM.
  #103  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:00 PM
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All very interesting but quite off topic, so let's end the team hijack please, thanks.

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Last edited by RickJay; 01-17-2020 at 11:01 PM.
  #104  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:07 AM
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Along with the fact that players are far bigger and faster, resulting in a much more punishing game. I doubt it's possible for players (at their current size) to have the stamina needed.
You change the rules, you get a different game.

If you want to see what incredibly fit footballers who run the whole 80 minutes look like, look at Aussie Rules. As a group, they are also the only people who make me feel small, (they tend to tall and muscular). They aren't as bulky as rugby or gridiron players but they aren't as light as professional runners either: they are incredible athletes.

Last edited by Melbourne; 01-18-2020 at 03:08 AM.
  #105  
Old 01-18-2020, 11:33 AM
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More importantly, how does MLB prevent this in the future?
I vaguely remember a story about a game between Stanford and either the Giants or A's where they tested out a method for the catcher to send signals electronically to the pitcher by the catcher pushing a button on his mitt. The problem was, the pitches hit the mitt so hard that they broke the signaling device.
  #106  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:55 PM
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Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes.
No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he's a slow, lumbering log who couldn't catch a bus.
Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they're the rules, they're the rules. It's just not how I like to see a game played.

(Correct - I don't like the DH, in case you're wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.)
I think it might be fun to watch a game with 9 designated hitters and 9 fielders. Maybe a game during the All Star break.

I bet there is a AAA position player out there that might actually be the best fielders for their position but they can't hit.
  #107  
Old 01-24-2020, 08:12 PM
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You know, that's the thing though.

Baseball has decided using your unaided eyes and ears to steal signals is not just ok but a lauded and traditional part of the game but using any form of electronics to do so is not.
How's that George Carlin opening line go? "Baseball is 19th Century Pastoral; Football is 20th Century Industrial"?
  #108  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:37 PM
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All of this only came to light because a player said something. If this had led to a bunch of players getting penalized or even banned from baseball, no other player would ever come forward. The guys you rat out might be your teammates one day.
Easy. If you're the whistleblower, you're guaranteed no punishment. Others on the team are subject to punishment.

I'm aghast that all the Astros players who were in on it, just as much as the coaches, get a free pass. At the very least, no Astros player should get into the Hall.
  #109  
Old 02-08-2020, 01:50 AM
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Talk about strategic timing on releasing the news a particularly eye-opening development:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ealing-program


I assume the WSJ agreed to release it after the Friday news cycle, hoping it got buried by Monday. Also after the drive-time sports radio shows.
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  #110  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:17 AM
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Yeah, this will not stay buried. It even has a name. "Codebreaker!"
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  #111  
Old 02-10-2020, 05:36 PM
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An interesting development.

Mike Bolsinger, an ex-Blue Jay reliever, is suing the Astros for "harming his career". Basically he claims that their sign stealing led to his having an absolutely abysmal relief appearance with the Jays that led to his immediate termination with the team.

Quote:
"I don't know if I've had a worse outing in my professional career," Bolsinger told USA Today. "I remember saying, 'It was like they knew what I was throwing. They're laying off pitches they weren't laying off before. It's like they knew what was coming.' That was the thought in my head.
The details are in the link, but what happened to him in 0.1 of an inning makes for an interesting case.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 02-10-2020 at 05:37 PM.
  #112  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:07 PM
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Ross Stripling forgot to use his indoor voice.

And I'm OK with that. I'd like to see every single Dodger and Yankee pitcher go head-hunting against the Astros. Every single batter that was on the team in 2017. And none of that "plunk them on the butt" shit either. You cashed a check for cheating, you better have a damn good helmet. (Yeah, yeah - shut up. This is my fantasy.)

Better yet, the Dodgers and Yankees can just refuse to play either the Astros or the Red Sox. Just forfeit the games. Think of the size of the asterisk that would make in the record books!

Sigh. The daydreams of a vengeful Dodger fan...
  #113  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:31 PM
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I'd love to see them get hit. A lot.

As to the Mike Bolsinger suit, I hope he wins just to hurt the Astros, but he won't and probably shouldn't. Bolsiner has to prove that his terrible outing against Houston and subsequent release was the reason he didn't get an MLB contract in 2020, but the confounding evidence against that theory is enormous:

1. Bolsinger was a marginal MLB pitcher at best. He had an okay season for the Dodgers in 2015, but was sub replacement level all the rest of the time. He had pitched badly for Toronto up to that point and was only on the team because other guys were hurt.

2. Major league teams simply don't get rid of guys for one bad game out of eleven. That does not happen. The Blue Jays got rid of him because of all eleven games he pitched for them as a whole. Bolsinger's numbers in the previous ten were subpar, to put it mildly.

I mean, it's possible Mike would have gotten more MLB time had he not gotten beaten up (it was also the last MLB game for another marginal Jays pitcher that day, Cesar Valdez, so I guess you never know) but MLB generally doesn't work that way. If Bolsinger had MLB talent, he'd likely be in MLB.
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  #114  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:05 PM
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Wow; shut the fuck up, Dusty Baker.
Quote:
Dusty Baker wants action from Major League Baseball: End the criticism of the Astros from across baseball over sign stealing, and take steps to ensure pitchers don’t throw at his players.

“It’s not good for the game, it’s not good for kids to see it, so I think both,” the new Houston manager said Saturday. “Stop the comments and also stop something before it happens.”
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“I’m depending on the league to try to put a stop to the seemingly premeditated retaliation that I’m hearing about,” Baker said. “In most instances in life you get kind of reprimanded for when you have premeditated anything.”

Dodgers pitcher Ross Stripling indicated he might intentionally throw at Houston batters if he faced them.

“We don’t start nothing,” Baker said. “This is kind of the slogan of my team: We don’t start anything — not intentionally. Guys are going to be getting hit intentionally and unintentionally. If you say you are going to drill somebody and all of the sudden you drill them, you can’t say, ‘I wasn’t trying to hit them,’ you know what I mean?”
Its too late, Fuckwit; the Asstros started this.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-15-2020 at 10:07 PM.
  #115  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:26 PM
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Fuck off, Dusty. You crawled into bed with those thieves and plague-carriers. Now you get their diseases.
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  #116  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:32 PM
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Gotta say, I thought Carlos Correa gave the most honest comments in the Q&A the other day. But then today, he went backwards....

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...es-fair-square

“We won fair and square” and “no cheating in road games” proves this? Come on, man!
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  #117  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:04 AM
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Wow; shut the fuck up, Dusty Baker.Its too late, Fuckwit; the Asstros started this.
In that story Justin Verlander is quoted as saying “We were successful in the World Series last year." WTF? Well maybe somewhat, just not quite enough.
  #118  
Old 02-16-2020, 11:47 AM
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Gotta say, I thought Carlos Correa gave the most honest comments in the Q&A the other day. But then today, he went backwards....

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...es-fair-square

“We won fair and square” and “no cheating in road games” proves this? Come on, man!
What an asshole.
  #119  
Old 02-17-2020, 01:13 PM
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Safest bet in the coming season is that the Astros lead MLB in being hit by pitches. As long as they're getting hit in the hips, I'm fine with that- they deserve it. I wonder if Gerrit Cole will comply if Gary Sanchez tells him to drill Altuve.
  #120  
Old 02-17-2020, 01:25 PM
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I am not a baseball expert in any way, so you can ignore what I say here. And I'm sure you will.

But why not just open up the game to "anything goes"? Steal signs, don't use signs, anticipate signs, whatever. Use electronics, don't use electronics. Will anything different happen? If one team steals (recognizes) the signs from another, and the second steals signs from the first, who has the upper hand, if any?

Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team's signs is an advantage? Might the outcome be nothing more than random chance, no matter what?
  #121  
Old 02-17-2020, 01:35 PM
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Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team's signs is an advantage?
It's like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run.

Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes.
  #122  
Old 02-17-2020, 02:59 PM
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It's like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run.

Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes.
Stealing signs might be worse, because instead of 11 people vs 11 people and the ability to improvise for the duration of a play, you have 1 vs 1 and all you’re doing is throwing a ball. The pitcher can’t make an adjustment once the ball leaves his hand.
  #123  
Old 02-17-2020, 05:30 PM
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I am not a baseball expert in any way, so you can ignore what I say here. And I'm sure you will.

Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team's signs is an advantage? Might the outcome be nothing more than random chance, no matter what?
The second statement demonstrates the veracity of the first one.

Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter. Most of the strategy of pitching is to prevent a batter guessing what kind of pitch is going to be thrown.
  #124  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:05 PM
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It's like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run.

Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes.
But what if each side could read the signs of the other? Wouldn't that make them about as equal as if neither did?
  #125  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:09 PM
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I seem to recall in the early days of baseball, a batter requested what kind of pitch E wanted the pitcher to throw.
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  #126  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:32 PM
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The second statement demonstrates the veracity of the first one.

Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter. Most of the strategy of pitching is to prevent a batter guessing what kind of pitch is going to be thrown.
I don't know that it is most of strategy. It is important sure, but knowing Mariano Rivera was going to throw a cutter wasn't much of an advantage. And the Astros didn't exactly go pumpkin when they stopped doing this. The data is noisy, but I'd imagine the system helped, but not really all that much. I think it is similar to steroids in that regard.
  #127  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Commissioner Rob Manfred
The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act.
So he thinks The Commisioner's Trophy is just "a piece of metal". Well, I think he should be removed from his job immediately.

https://apnews.com/f9d8e91dacac62e3c6217c62a77028d4

ETA: MLB is really fucked up at the moment, isn't it?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-17-2020 at 06:45 PM.
  #128  
Old 02-17-2020, 07:45 PM
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But why not just open up the game to "anything goes"?
I think the issue is that we have people called players, and they are supposed to be the ones playing the game. It’s one thing to have the non-players helping to put the players in the best position to win. It’s something else to have non-players, back office analysts, giving real time directions to players.

What the astros did was cheat. They stole signs that they weren’t supposed to steal. It’s akin to stealing a peek at your opponents cards during poker, using a camera, video monitor, and a colleague to send you the info. Yes, if you walk behind me to get some more salsa from the kitchen , I hide my cards, but if you’re sitting in your seat I stop hiding them because you’re not supposed to be using a hidden camera to look at my cards.

Ok make poker (or baseball) a free for all, but the game will instantly be about the technology you use instead of how you play the game.




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  #129  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:43 PM
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It’s akin to stealing a peek at your opponents cards during poker, using a camera, video monitor, and a colleague to send you the info. Yes, if you walk behind me to get some more salsa from the kitchen , I hide my cards, but if you’re sitting in your seat I stop hiding them because you’re not supposed to be using a hidden camera to look at my cards.
Excellent analogy.
  #130  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:00 AM
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It is important sure, but knowing Mariano Rivera was going to throw a cutter wasn't much of an advantage.
Mariano Rivera was pretty much unique in that respect. Most starting pitchers need at least three quality pitches to be effective. Closers can have only two since they will never see the same batter twice in the same game. And a starting pitcher's effectiveness drops every time he goes through the lineup.
  #131  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:06 AM
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But what if each side could read the signs of the other? Wouldn't that make them about as equal as if neither did?
At first, you would tremendously increase offense and have a different kind of game. Eventually what would happen is that you would have a kind of "arms race" as each side tried to figure out how to give signs that were unstealable with existing technology.
  #132  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:53 AM
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Saw this the other day and couldn't help but be amused:

https://twitter.com/davithius/status...749388800?s=20

SPOILER:
It's a picture of Greg Maddux that says "No need to steal the sign. I'll tell you what I throw. It's an 89MPH sinker, and you won't even swing at it."
  #133  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:44 AM
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So he thinks The Commisioner's Trophy is just "a piece of metal". Well, I think he should be removed from his job immediately.
I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it.

There is really no way MLB could have managed this that would have made it not be ugly, but they have managed to make it way uglier than necessary.
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  #134  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:29 AM
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I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it.
The thing is, there's now way to say what he was trying to say and not sound like a clueless idiot. It would be like the POTUS referring to the flag as "just a piece of cloth" when addressing war veterans.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:41 AM
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I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it.

There is really no way MLB could have managed this that would have made it not be ugly, but they have managed to make it way uglier than necessary.
This is the timeline

Scandal breaks and is explored: -18% attendance

Red Sox bullshit: -2% attendance

Manfreds further stupidity: -7% MORE attendance.


That may be too inflated but they ARE going to take a big hit.

That all said, taking away titles would be a big stupid mistake.

Can't wait to see the Sox lose 93 games and the utter chaos of Astros getting plunked.
  #136  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:10 PM
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Something concerning and something that will potentially be awkward is if (and 538 currently projects this as a strong possibility) Houston plays deep into October despite a season of intense scrutiny and potential on-field retribution.

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Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter.

Well, actually
, there is some debate about how much advantage there really is.

Seems like it should, but that could be a 'just-so' story. Some batters claim knowing the pitch in advance hurts them because their timing is thrown off. Could well be a deflategate situation (though there's no conclusive evidence the Pats actually deflated balls there) where there's no actual evidence of benefit to the practice despite cries to the contrary.

Still wrong in any event but also kind of pathetic if it didn't really help (except psychologically).
  #137  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:36 PM
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Well, actually[/URL], there is some debate about how much advantage there really is.
The article shows that, although the Astros improved both at home and on the road, they improved much more at home. This would argue that the scheme was in fact pretty effective, even if other factors were involved. (And they improved only in strikeout rate, not in isolated power.)
  #138  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:48 PM
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This is the timeline

Scandal breaks and is explored: -18% attendance

Red Sox bullshit: -2% attendance

Manfreds further stupidity: -7% MORE attendance.


That may be too inflated but they ARE going to take a big hit.
It's wildly inflated; they aren't going to lose 27% to anything short of cancelling another season or a comet hitting the earth. Seven percent would be a disaster.

People are going to buy tickets just to boo at the Astros. I know I might. I'd bring a sign, but I'm afraid they'll steal it.
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  #139  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:24 PM
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Now the Astros are being sued on behalf of the season ticket holders. Suit alleges that the Astros were “deceptively overcharging them for season tickets while ... knowingly and surreptitiously engaged in a sign stealing scheme in violation of Major League Baseball rules.” And thus "secretly put a deficient product on the field."

Now this is a suit I can get behind. Doesn't stand a chance, but I like where it's coming from.
  #140  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:37 PM
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A sports bettor is also suing:
Quote:
Massachusetts resident Kristopher Olson is suing the league and the two teams for negligence and for violating state consumer protection rules. He placed at least 226 bets on fantasy sports platform DraftKings since 2017, but wouldn't have done so had he known the Astros and Red Sox were violating league rules and that the game stats may have been affected, Olson's attorney said in court documents.
  #141  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:00 PM
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Ross Stripling forgot to use his indoor voice.

And I'm OK with that. I'd like to see every single Dodger and Yankee pitcher go head-hunting against the Astros. Every single batter that was on the team in 2017. And none of that "plunk them on the butt" shit either. You cashed a check for cheating, you better have a damn good helmet. (Yeah, yeah - shut up. This is my fantasy.)

Better yet, the Dodgers and Yankees can just refuse to play either the Astros or the Red Sox. Just forfeit the games. Think of the size of the asterisk that would make in the record books!

Sigh. The daydreams of a vengeful Dodger fan...
I don't think there'll be much head hunting. Everyone gets plunked maybe once a game or once a series and over the course of the season, we call it square.

I have no doubt that Astros are going to want rib/kidney protectors. They can pick them up at Dick's in the Lacrosse section. It might mess with their swing a bit. It's going to be a long season for them.

I've been beaned in the back with an 80 mph fastball and I got up pretty quick but I felt like crying. And I was limping to first... from getting hit in the back. I probably deserved it so I sucked it up but I was very nice to people after that.
  #142  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:24 PM
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I'm against beanballs. These guys throw hard enough to kill somebody. Cheating may be a big deal, but it's not a capital crime. I expect the Astros' team average to drop by at least 20 points- not only are they not going to know what's coming, they aren't going to get to comfortable in the batter's box.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
Safest bet in the coming season is that the Astros lead MLB in being hit by pitches. As long as they're getting hit in the hips, I'm fine with that- they deserve it. I wonder if Gerrit Cole will comply if Gary Sanchez tells him to drill Altuve.
I doubt it. And no one is going to have to tell a pitcher to plunk them.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:02 PM
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People are going to buy tickets just to boo at the Astros. I know I might. I'd bring a sign, but I'm afraid they'll steal it.
I think it’d be classy to bring a sign that just says, “Steal this sign Asstros!” With a picture of a dented metal trash can on it.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:03 PM
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It’s only fitting a gambler would have a law suit like that; just another bad bet.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
I think it’d be classy to bring a sign that just says, “Steal this sign Asstros!” With a picture of a dented metal trash can on it.
A freeway kind of sign. White lettering on Dodger Blue background.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:06 PM
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It's wildly inflated; they aren't going to lose 27% to anything short of cancelling another season or a comet hitting the earth. Seven percent would be a disaster.

People are going to buy tickets just to boo at the Astros. I know I might. I'd bring a sign, but I'm afraid they'll steal it.
Fell 4.1 last year. I'd take the over on 7

Wonder if MilB will actually go up.
  #148  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:09 PM
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It’s only fitting a gambler would have a law suit like that; just another bad bet.
I don't think the lawsuit is a bad bet at all.
  #149  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:23 PM
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Fell 4.1 last year. I'd take the over on 7

Wonder if MilB will actually go up.
I'll take that action in a heartbeat. The fact it dropped a lot in 2019 is evidence it will NOT drop by even more in 2020. 2019 had really bad early weather - April was arguably the worst weather MLB has ever had - and a very unusual level of competitive imbalance.
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  #150  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:21 PM
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Players on other teams show no signs of calming down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Markakis
I feel every single guy over there deserves a beating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Markakis
I think the commissioner completely handled it the wrong way. But that’s the way he did it and we got to live with that. I know a lot of people disagreed with the way he handled this decision. He should be embarrassed of himself.
And to really get to the heart of the matter 9bolding mine):
Quote:
“It angers you, especially from a guy who played the game the right way his whole career,” said the 36-year-old Markakis, a 14-season big league veteran. “No short cuts. I know how hard it is to prepare for this game. To see something like that, it’s damaging to baseball.”

“I know we’re all competitors. We’re out to compete, but there are right ways to do it and wrong ways to do it,” he said. “I 100% disagree the way with the way they did it. A lot of people were hurt by it. Everything has been handled the wrong way.”

Markakis said the Astros’ actions were clearly wrong.

“You got two guys sitting at home, kind of getting a little leeway but they’re out of the game right now,” he said of Hinch and Luhnow. “Then you got the players who did it who are scot-free. I know there’s a lot of political stuff behind it but it’s wrong. You don’t want to see that.”

“As players, we do not agree with what they did or don’t stand behind them or support them, their actions,” he said. “I think they got off pretty easy. They’re going to be able to go out and compete with no ramifications at all.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-18-2020 at 06:22 PM.
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