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  #51  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:23 PM
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Also, if Trump can fire her on a whim, why get her whacked?
For the optics. A graphic warning to all Deep Staters law-abiding folks not to FUCK with the Don.

Let's be kind. "Hit" was a metaphor for "removed" aka fired. Just terminated without extreme prejudice. Successfully, stealthily discrediting someone so they're unable to continue their job is what intel folk call "a nice clean hit", right? Media trash are "hit pieces", right? Only career death, not a bloody corpse.

No, let's be paranoid. This POTUS wants his opponents (that's most of us) jailed or dead. He could process a 5th Ave crowd with an Uzi and not be convicted. The nightmare is real. Even paranoiacs have enemies.
  #52  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:28 PM
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Lev Parnas to appear on Maddow tonight.

Josh Lederman of NBC confirms "TONIGHT: Lev Parnas sitting down with @maddow for an exclusive interview, airing tonight at 9pm on @MSNBC"

https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/stat...701648386?s=20

Last edited by JohnT; 01-15-2020 at 03:30 PM.
  #53  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:28 PM
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I don't know what to make of this story. Hyde seems to have a few screws loose, so it's possible he imagined he was part of a plot against the ambassador. But if I understand the timeline correctly, there was only a few weeks between these messages and the ambassador leaving the country because her life was in danger. Is it just a weird coincidence that Hyde was sending messages about an imaginary assassination plot just a few weeks before she was forced to leave? Or was he part of something that was very real? It's interesting too that Parnas mostly didn't respond to Hyde's messages? Was that because he thought the guy was insane and had no idea what he was talking about? Or did he not want to leave an electronic trail? He did respond to one message which indicates he was at least reading them, not completely ignoring them like you might expect if they were the ravings of a lunatic. It's understandable that everyone from the Democrats to the media are being cautious with this story for now.
As the cliche goes; it's not the crime, it's the cover-up.

I can see a theory that Robert Hyde is a crazy man who decided to start a plot against Marie Yovanavitch all on his own and that doesn't implicate the Trump administration - if that's all there was to this story.

But we have evidence that Lev Parnas was aware of what Hyde was doing. And regardless of whether Hyde came up with the plan on his own or the plan was created in the Trump administration and Hyde was brought in as a point man, the fact that Parnas was aware that it was happening and took no actions definitely implicates Parnas. Even if Parnas had no prior knowledge of what Hyde was doing, he should have contacted authorities when he received Hyde's text messages.

The question now is how much higher than Parnas does this go?
  #54  
Old 01-15-2020, 04:23 PM
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I'll be the first to say Trump probably didn't order her murdered. He isn't reckless enough to court that kind of blowback, not consciously anyway.

However, he does have the nerve to indiscriminately hire the worst sorts of goons and direct them with vague messaging like "whatever it takes", not really caring what it takes, yet feeling insulated because he didn't spell it out.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 01-15-2020 at 04:24 PM.
  #55  
Old 01-15-2020, 04:43 PM
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Rather than whatever grisly shit you're imagining, they probably just wanted to know who she was meeting with in order to keep ahead of her or to discredit her.
But why? If the America-hating fuckstick wanted her gone, he didn’t even NEED an excuse. And if he felt the urge to put a fig leaf on it, I hire all the best people, and Obama hired only the worst people was certainly one he wouldn’t feel any hesitation to deploy.

ISTM that he wanted to make sure that she didn’t have a smoking gun that would blow away the Hunter Biden issue before he pulled the trigger (so to speak) on her dismissal.
  #56  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:03 PM
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Rather than whatever grisly shit you're imagining, they probably just wanted to know who she was meeting with in order to keep ahead of her or to discredit her.
Hyde was reporting he already had her under surveillance. So why would he be acting like it was something he was going to do? And why would he be discussing prices with the watchers to do something they had already done?

From the context, the most obvious conclusion is that Hyde had placed Yovanavitch under surveillance as just a preliminary step in the overall plan. And now that he had accomplished this, he was working on the next step. Something which was going to cost him more money and involved knowing when Yovanavitch would be out in the open and what kind of security protection she had.
  #57  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:05 PM
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... as we all do.
  #58  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:33 PM
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If Trump did such a thing, and the evidence was overwhelming and clear, he'd be impeached and deposed, for sure. Likely a unanimous vote in House + Senate. You'd have President Pence by the end of the week.
I disagree. Thats like going to Georgia in 1940 and saying 'if the KKK really did lynch that black guy, then the justice system will work the way its supposed to'.

Things are pretty fucked up in America. Even if Trump tries to have people killed, the GOP and his base won't abandon him.
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  #59  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:58 PM
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Also, if Trump can fire her on a whim, why get her whacked?
So she doesn't squeal, see?
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  #60  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:22 PM
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Sure, but dead ambassadors attract A LOT of attention. Remember Benghazi? It just doesn't seem like something one would expect to get away with, even granting how dumb Trump can be.
  #61  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:28 PM
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News of her murder would be fake news. It would be a tragic accident.
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  #62  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:37 PM
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And she probably deserved it anyway. So sayeth Faux News, right?
  #63  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:18 PM
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Hyde was reporting he already had her under surveillance. So why would he be acting like it was something he was going to do? And why would he be discussing prices with the watchers to do something they had already done?

From the context, the most obvious conclusion is that Hyde had placed Yovanavitch under surveillance as just a preliminary step in the overall plan. And now that he had accomplished this, he was working on the next step. Something which was going to cost him more money and involved knowing when Yovanavitch would be out in the open and what kind of security protection she had.
Based off that Mother Jones article linked on the first page, I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility that Hyde was "surveiling" Yovanavitch by staring at the closed door of an unplugged microwave oven.
  #64  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:38 PM
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I'll be the first to say Trump probably didn't order her murdered. He isn't reckless enough to court that kind of blowback, not consciously anyway.

However, he does have the nerve to indiscriminately hire the worst sorts of goons and direct them with vague messaging like "whatever it takes", not really caring what it takes, yet feeling insulated because he didn't spell it out.
"Will no one rid me of this bothersome ambassador?" That sounds familiar.
  #65  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:49 PM
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Based off that Mother Jones article linked on the first page, I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility that Hyde was "surveiling" Yovanavitch by staring at the closed door of an unplugged microwave oven.
It should work if it's a Radarange.
  #66  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:23 PM
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"Will no one rid me of this bothersome ambassador?" That sounds familiar.
I’ve heard “meddlesome,” “troublesome,” and now “bothersome,” and frankly it’s making me ill. It’s ”TURBULENT” (dammit). We’re Dopers, we ought to be able to get it right.
  #67  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:49 PM
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I’ve heard “meddlesome,” “troublesome,” and now “bothersome,” and frankly it’s making me ill. It’s ”TURBULENT” (dammit). We’re Dopers, we ought to be able to get it right.
Presumably Henry said it in twelfth-century French (if he even said it at all), so it's not like there's a single right way to phrase it in modern English
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  #68  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:55 PM
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But now I'm starting to lean to the explanation that he's a mentally unwell guy who got Parnas's contact information and Parnas probably wants him to go away. Parnas's lawyer said as much in a Tweet, denying that Parnas was involved in any surveillance and saying that they believe Hyde's "activities to be a reflection on his dubious mental state."
Ah yes, "The Chin" Gambit. It's worked before...
  #69  
Old 01-16-2020, 01:52 AM
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Based off that Mother Jones article linked on the first page, I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility that Hyde was "surveiling" Yovanavitch by staring at the closed door of an unplugged microwave oven.
I have no problem with the idea that Hyde is delusional. But how does that exonerate Parnas?

If Hyde was a crazy man hatching a delusional plot against an American ambassador, Parnas should have notified somebody in an official capacity. If Hyde was a semi-sane man carrying out an actual plot against an American ambassador, Petras should have notified somebody in an official capacity.
  #70  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:34 AM
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I think we need more information about what happened and Trump's involvement in it. Clearly Joe Biden should ask the President of Ukraine to investigate.
  #71  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:07 AM
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Looks like Ukraine is finally opening up the corruption investigation.

... into corrupt activities involving the surveillance of Ambassador Yavonovitch.

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BREAKING: Ukraine's Interior Ministry announces criminal probe into alleged illegal surveillance of former US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch after text messages released by House investigators showed Robert F. Hyde and Lev Parnas discussing her being tracked in Kyiv.
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/st...378544129?s=19
  #72  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:16 AM
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IMPOTUS is a mentally ill moron but I don't think he would order a hit on someone. On the other hand I could see one of his buddies doing it like Putin.

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  #73  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:26 AM
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IMPOTUS is a mentally ill moron but I don't think he would order a hit on someone. On the other hand I could see one of his buddies doing it like Putin.


And this is part of the problem with having such an obviously self-centered idiot in the Whitehouse. At this point, anyone could cook up a Trump scandal, and no matter how absurd it is, it would be plausible. And Trump denying everything would look exactly like him denying everything else.

There was a time, not that long ago, where the suggestion that the US President was involved in a plot to assassinate a US Ambassador would have been pretty much automatically rejected by everyone outside the InfoWars universe. Now? Meh, I could see it.
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  #74  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:51 AM
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There is no such thing that would get this president impeached in The Senate. There could be an HD video of him engaging in necropedophilia and I'd say the same. Try the ballot box in November, that's all that remains. Next.
  #75  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:31 AM
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There is no such thing that would get this president impeached in The Senate.
He could announce he was switching over to the Democratic party.

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  #76  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:37 AM
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Trump was a Dem for most of his life, as recently as 2009.

Putin certainly has no problem whacking someone or ordering a hit , he has done it many times the past.
  #77  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:42 AM
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Trump was a Dem for most of his life, as recently as 2009.
He was a Dem from 2001-2009. Reform Party briefly before that, and Republican before that for most of the '90s. He may have been a Democrat during the Reagan/Bush years but I haven't seen any claims either way.
  #78  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:22 PM
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So, in addition to an Igor this case now has a "Mr. Hyde". Are you now prepared to believe what a horrorshow this administration is?
  #79  
Old 01-16-2020, 02:00 PM
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There is no such thing that would get this president impeached in The Senate. There could be an HD video of him engaging in necropedophilia and I'd say the same. Try the ballot box in November, that's all that remains. Next.
Necropedo? It's a little subtle and over clever for that crowd. If one guy says it was over 18 and another disagrees and says he saw the corpse move, that's the end of that.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:18 PM
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IMPOTUS is a mentally ill moron but I don't think he would order a hit on someone. On the other hand I could see one of his buddies doing it like Putin.
Watch him rage at reporters and lie about them to their faces. I can imagine it very well. He's incredibly spiteful and incapable of accepting responsibility or tolerating criticism. He denies things that he did on camera. When he gets pushed, the combination of rage and "how-dare-you" is frightening.

He had a press conference in late May of 2016 that illustrated this. It should have ended his campaign.

Several months earlier, Megyn Kelly had asked him hard questions about how he insulted women in ways he did not use on men.

The next day, in interviews, he snidely described her as, "She was bleeding out of her eyes, her ears, her....wherever." The disgusting tone of that last word is hard to adequately describe. He thought he'd beaten her. He thought he'd won because she was a woman, and women are vile and unclean to an unread, uncurious, luddite like Trump.

The next debate was announced with Kelly as the moderator again. Trump announced he wouldn't be attending, as he had a "charity" benefit to attend----that had not been announced up to that point, and which was only a few miles away from the debate.

A couple months went by. Trump bragged he had raised millions of dollars for veterans. Reporters discreetly poked around with some of the charities Trump had claimed were beneficiaries of his largesse. None of them had received anything. This was in keeping with Trump's longstanding practice of claiming he had donated or would donate large sums of money, but never actually doing so. A Complex story detailed how Trump pushed and shoved his way into a 1996 charity gala for kids, then took the seat an actual donor paid for.

Finally, the questions by the press couldn't be ignored, and Trump held a press conference that was kind of scary. That red-faced guy on the right is Al Baldasaro, New Hampshire pol who has said he'd like to haul Hillary Clinton before a firing squad. Why? Good question. He has 'apologized' but one can hardly be blamed for thinking an apology for such rage is about as genuine as Trump's boasts and promises.

This is his first press conference, before the pressure really mounted. Look at that anger. Take note of the lies. Does he believe them or just want to believe them? Does he lie because he feels that they should be true, and, therefore, if you point out reality, you're a big bad meanie?

Now ask yourself, what would he do if all brakes on his behavior disappeared? What would he do with all that insecurity and rage and malice? He's been getting away with his scams for a long time, and might have continued to escape justice if he had not run for President. Now he's enraged at the injustice of being punished for things he's done all his life. Look at who his idols are
What would he do if he thought he could get away with anything? He feels entitled to it now. All that he needs now is another four years.
  #81  
Old 01-16-2020, 02:29 PM
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Necropedo? It's a little subtle and over clever for that crowd. If one guy says it was over 18 and another disagrees and says he saw the corpse move, that's the end of that.
Over 16 in Alabama.
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:23 PM
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In related news, Hyde's home has been visited by the FBI. He seems to be going with "we were just playing around."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/polit...yde/index.html

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  #83  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:08 PM
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"I was drunk, Your Honor!" is a helluva defense.
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:34 PM
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I am fairly, no, make that 100% sure, of at least two things: that Trump was not involved in authorizing a hit on the ambassador, and that if he had been and evidence supported it, the vote would be 100-0 in a Senate impeachment trial to convict him. I know the man is horrible, and some Rep senators along with him, but come on!

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  #85  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:58 PM
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Oh, ye of much faith....
  #86  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:02 PM
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I have no problem with the idea that Hyde is delusional. But how does that exonerate Parnas?

If Hyde was a crazy man hatching a delusional plot against an American ambassador, Parnas should have notified somebody in an official capacity. If Hyde was a semi-sane man carrying out an actual plot against an American ambassador, Petras should have notified somebody in an official capacity.
Certainly Parnas should have notified someone if either of those were the case. But as to exonerating Parnas, at this point he doesn't need it, as no plot to kill the ambassador has been established, to say the least. I'm all for theoretical discussions, but isn't this jumping the gun quite a bit?
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:03 PM
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Oh, ye of much faith....


But I must say, I'm not basing it on faith. Just common sense, at least to me...
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:07 PM
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I am fairly, no, make that 100% sure, of at least two things: that Trump was not involved in authorizing a hit on the ambassador, and that if he had been and evidence supported it, the vote would be 100-0 in a Senate impeachment trial to convict him. I know the man is horrible, and some Rep senators along with him, but come on!
"Come on!" in this case meaning that we know the contours of dts mind, and it's ok in there?

He is a child. He doesn't hold to any moral values that we have seen and he is playing with fire around our enemies and treasonous gestures, to see where they lead him, and us. Murder is not minor but not a far cry at all. It is less of a crime really.

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Old 01-16-2020, 05:12 PM
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dt is widely quoted as saying what's the big deal about political murder. (Lester Holt?) He hasn't been quoted on the converse of that statement. So there's that.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:33 PM
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OK, thanks.

Anyhow, if it becomes a thing that Trump ordered a hit on a US ambassador, he'd be yanked out of office pronto. It would make Watergate look like nothing in comparison.
Unless there is actual video of him ordering it in clear, unambiguous language, the Republicans would absolutely let it slide.
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:34 PM
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Unless there is actual video of him ordering it in clear, unambiguous language, the Republicans would absolutely let it slide.
And even then I wouldn't bet my house on them. Hell, I wouldn't even bet $20.

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Old 01-16-2020, 08:00 PM
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I am fairly, no, make that 100% sure, of at least two things: that Trump was not involved in authorizing a hit on the ambassador, and that if he had been and evidence supported it, the vote would be 100-0 in a Senate impeachment trial to convict him. I know the man is horrible, and some Rep senators along with him, but come on!
I cannot quite get to 0% chance. But I think the odds that he directly ordered a hit is likely very small. It is a bit sad that the office of the president has been sullied to the degree that it isn't 0%. It really ought to be 0%.

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Old 01-16-2020, 08:27 PM
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OK, thanks.

Anyhow, if it becomes a thing that Trump ordered a hit on a US ambassador, he'd be yanked out of office pronto. It would make Watergate look like nothing in comparison.

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Unless there is actual video of him ordering it in clear, unambiguous language, the Republicans would absolutely let it slide.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there RickJay. Some of the moderate Republicans like Romney or Collins would let it slide. Most of the Republicans would cheer Trump on, and say that she deserved to die. Fox News would smear her.
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:36 PM
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It would not shock me to know that Trump was part of a plot to have her killed. I mean, she was rushed out of the Country because her safety was threatened, wasn't she?

Does she really have so many enemies?
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:08 PM
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It would not shock me to know that Trump was part of a plot to have her killed. I mean, she was rushed out of the Country because her safety was threatened, wasn't she?

Does she really have so many enemies?


"See? Trump didn't want her to be killed, he just wanted her to think she was going to be killed, so they'd have an excuse to get her out of the country! She should be thanking him for being so concerned about her safety, No more BENGAAAAAAAZHIIIIIIIIISSSSSS! Libtard."
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:14 PM
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I cannot quite get to 0% chance. But I think the odds that he directly ordered a hit is likely very small. It is a bit sad that the office of the president has been sullied to the degree that it isn't 0%. It really ought to be 0%.
Yes - this is the sad thing, the thought should really rank up there on the ridiculosity scale with "Obama is a secret muslem born in Kenya" - that it doesn't really only goes to show what a disaster Trump is
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:36 PM
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So dt wouldn't kill someone? He just did, to break in the new (election) year.

Go back to dt and stephanopoulos in the oval office.

He wouldn't initiate it, but he has got himself some friends who are not him. He would spend lives to stay in office or out of jail. Could anyone doubt that? You know his base are voting for him based on this belief so it might not even matter.
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:50 PM
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My personal opinion is that Trump wouldn't have ordered somebody to kill Yovanavitch. Trump gives the impression of being somebody who expects those kinds of things to be handled for him without his having to bother about it. Like how his meals appear in front of him or how his clothes get washed or how the federal budget is prepared. He just assumes some nameless people somewhere are taking care of these things.

Trump only puts his own efforts into important things like summit meetings with dictators, cheating at golf, and posting tweets.
  #99  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:54 PM
RioRico is offline
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
So dt wouldn't kill someone? He just did, to break in the new (election) year.
That was only some raghead. They don't matter; they're prime targets. Just get the right one. Or if you get the wrong one, claim it was the right one. What a YUGE victory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
My personal opinion is that Trump wouldn't have ordered somebody to kill Yovanavitch. Trump gives the impression of being somebody who expects those kinds of things to be handled for him without his having to bother about it. Like how his meals appear in front of him or how his clothes get washed or how the federal budget is prepared. He just assumes some nameless people somewhere are taking care of these things.
IOW it's White Privilege on steroids or maybe Self-Proclaimed Zillionaire Privilege. The "little people" are only there to serve and/or pay and/or fellate the Big Man, and they had better instinctively know what's expected. Do not disappoint The Don.

Quote:
Trump only puts his own efforts into important things like summit meetings with dictators, cheating at golf, and posting tweets.
You omitted stealing his (undocumented) wait-staff's tips.
  #100  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:37 AM
Kevbo is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Hyde does look pretty unstable. But Lev Parnas was communicating with Hyde and was aware enough of what Hyde was saying to respond to him even after Hyde outlined his plans.

If Hyde was some lone nut who started this all on his own, Parnas should have contacted the State Department and told them there was a crazy man stalking Yovanovitch.
Well for some reason Yavonovitch WAS warned by the State Department that she was in danger....told to get her ass on the next flight home in fact. So maybe not Parnas, but somebody with some ethics or conscience caught wind of something.

Also, I strongly suspect Hyde is a nutter, and was MSU.
__________________
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Last edited by Kevbo; 01-17-2020 at 07:41 AM.
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