Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:37 AM
RickJay is online now
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 42,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with you there RickJay. Some of the moderate Republicans like Romney or Collins would let it slide. Most of the Republicans would cheer Trump on, and say that she deserved to die. Fox News would smear her.
You're right, of course. I am surprised I even typed that. If it does come out Trump did this, they'll just excuse it.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #102  
Old 01-17-2020, 09:12 AM
Drum God's Avatar
Drum God is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Central Texas, USA
Posts: 2,272
In an interview aired last night on Rachel Maddow, Parnas said that Trump tried to fire Yavanovitch several times before he successfully got rid of her.

Tried?

TRIED??!!

Trump is the President of the United States and Yavanovitch was his representative in Kiev. How could he NOT fire her if that is what he wanted? What kind of an administration does DJT have that he cannot make something as simple as recalling an ambassador happen? I absolutely loathe Trump, but I've get to wonder who is really in charge. How does this happen? For all his bloviating, is Trump really so ineffective at leading the very people who seem to have signed onto his bandwagon?

I'll tell you one thing, though. If word got out that the black president couldn't get an ambassador recalled, FoxNews and others would be screaming about what an ineffective leader Obama was and that he couldn't even get his own people to do what he tells them.
__________________
At the feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.
  #103  
Old 01-17-2020, 09:16 AM
DoctorJ is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Posts: 6,530
The problem is that the evidence could never be 100% clear to Trumpers. If he issued the order in writing, in triplicate, signed and notarized, with video of him signing it and reiterating it vocally directly into the camera, but then later he said he didn't do it, they'd be like "He says he didn't do it, so who are we supposed to believe? Fake news. #MAGA".
  #104  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:04 AM
Fiddle Peghead's Avatar
Fiddle Peghead is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Harlem, New York, NY
Posts: 4,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepKillBeep View Post
I cannot quite get to 0% chance. But I think the odds that he directly ordered a hit is likely very small. It is a bit sad that the office of the president has been sullied to the degree that it isn't 0%. It really ought to be 0%.
I originally wrote a 99% chance, but changed it to 100%. Fair enough, I'd go with the 99%. I don't generally like to make absolute statements.

But anyway, you know how in The Godfather, the Don is never directly implicated in ordering a hit, because "the Corleone family had a lot a buffers?" The Godfather is not real life. There aren't enough buffers in the world to keep something like this from getting out. Trump has bankrupted casinos and driven numerous Trump businesses into the ground. But he has still managed to amass a fortune that you or I couldn't make in a thousand lifetimes. He is not an idiot. Okay, sometimes he is a big, fucking idiot. But does common sense not suggest that he would never be so stupid as to order a hit on the ambassador, given that he is the most watched and montiored man in the world?

ETA: And also, remember, we are talking about actual murder here. Where you get right up to their face and "bada-Bing!!! and the blood all over your nice Ivy League suit." Trump may be a lot of things, but like most of us, he is not a murderer.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 01-17-2020 at 11:07 AM.
  #105  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:03 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,276
Given that this is a thread where we're discussing the likelihood of Trump ordering a hit on an ambassador, I came across a line of reasoning which argues that Parnas was arrested to shut him up, given he was supposed to be testifying before the House the day after his arrest.

The arrest... October 9th... occurred a week after Trump, through John Dowd, waived a conflict of interest and actively started directing Parnas's defense.

Then Rudy sends Parnas on a mysterious 1-way trip to Vienna. The DOJ pounces on Parnas, arresting him, got all this information... and then sat on it. For months.

Parnas isn't stupid, he's seeing himself being made into the fall guy. So he flips, but not to the government - the government run by the guy he worked for who just put him in jail - but to the public. And so here we are.

https://twitter.com/blakesmustache/s...902189569?s=20

Last edited by JohnT; 01-17-2020 at 12:04 PM.
  #106  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:32 PM
RickJay is online now
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 42,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum God View Post
In an interview aired last night on Rachel Maddow, Parnas said that Trump tried to fire Yavanovitch several times before he successfully got rid of her.

Tried?

TRIED??!!

Trump is the President of the United States and Yavanovitch was his representative in Kiev. How could he NOT fire her if that is what he wanted?
Trump is a coward and it's well documented that he is afraid to fire people directly.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #107  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:37 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
My personal opinion is that Trump wouldn't have ordered somebody to kill Yovanavitch. Trump gives the impression of being somebody who expects those kinds of things to be handled for him without his having to bother about it. Like how his meals appear in front of him or how his clothes get washed or how the federal budget is prepared. He just assumes some nameless people somewhere are taking care of these things.

Trump only puts his own efforts into important things like summit meetings with dictators, cheating at golf, and posting tweets.
This is the reality tv comfort food msm media view. Because it's not civil to say anything beyond this. Just look at the outtakes of the tv show and don't think any further down the line. But off camera he is quite capable of conspiracy to murder. No q about it. Just imagine the man you saw next to putin, in trouble, and looking for a solution. No stretch of imagination necessary.

Last edited by drad dog; 01-17-2020 at 12:41 PM.
  #108  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:05 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 84,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum God View Post
In an interview aired last night on Rachel Maddow, Parnas said that Trump tried to fire Yavanovitch several times before he successfully got rid of her.

Tried?

TRIED??!!
He kept pushing the button but the trapdoor wouldn't open.
  #109  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:15 PM
RickJay is online now
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 42,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
This is the reality tv comfort food msm media view. Because it's not civil to say anything beyond this. Just look at the outtakes of the tv show and don't think any further down the line. But off camera he is quite capable of conspiracy to murder. No q about it. Just imagine the man you saw next to putin, in trouble, and looking for a solution. No stretch of imagination necessary.
Donald Trump would cheerfully let nerve gas kill ten thousand American children if he could make money off it, and I mean that absolutely literally. However, he wouldn't do it himself. He is weak, and he's chicken. He has a lot of bravado, but no bravery.

It is NOT in his character to actually plan a hit. That takes a degree of intestinal fortitude, however vile it might be.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #110  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:19 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 84,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
IOW it's White Privilege on steroids or maybe Self-Proclaimed Zillionaire Privilege. The "little people" are only there to serve and/or pay and/or fellate the Big Man, and they had better instinctively know what's expected. Do not disappoint The Don.
It's worse; it's Third Generation Zillionaire Privilege. People who actually earned the family fortune understand the work that went into it. They know that you need to slap a few prostitutes around if you want to make a dollar. But two generations later, their grandchildren take being rich for granted. They've been rich since birth and they just assume their lifestyle is normal. They know that they'll go to an Ivy League school regardless of whether they do any work in school; that they'll always be a highly paid executive regardless of how many times they go bankrupt; that they'll never be arrested much less go to prison regardless of how many times they break the law. They live a life in which there are no bad consequences, so they never develop any skills for avoiding trouble.
  #111  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:27 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Donald Trump would cheerfully let nerve gas kill ten thousand American children if he could make money off it, and I mean that absolutely literally. However, he wouldn't do it himself. He is weak, and he's chicken. He has a lot of bravado, but no bravery.

It is NOT in his character to actually plan a hit. That takes a degree of intestinal fortitude, however vile it might be.
That's why I said "conspiracy." These people are very likely to be chicken, weak or whatever. That's why conspiracy got a bad rep. It allows the chickens to make evil.

You are still imagining him alone in a room either planning or not. He is in a whirlwind of bad people and shifting fortunes at the endgame of his life.
  #112  
Old 01-24-2020, 05:02 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
<<Underlining mine>>

I think the key would be the definition of definitive proof. So long as there is some possible (not necessarily plausible) scenario under which Trump could be innocent, then the senate and Trump's supporters will hang onto that fig leaf for dear life. "On the phone call to the hit man Trump never said he wanted Yavonovitch murdered he said he wanted her 'taken out'. Perhaps he was just referring to her being removed from office?"

Even if the evidence is overwhelming as long as any one piece can be discredited, that is what they will concentrate on. "The Democrats claim to have 99 witnesses who say Trump kill Yavonovich in broad daylight, Witness number 72 was so nearsighted that she couldn't have actually seen Trump pull the trigger, and she was a registered Democrat to boot. The whole thing is a phony witch hunt."
You win!

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...l_twitter_abcn

Yup, the President of the United States... who could have just fired her at any time... was purposely told by Parnas stuff about Yovanavitch which would piss Trump off, to which Trump replied:

Quote:
"Get rid of her!" is what the voice that appears to be Trump’s is heard saying. "Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it."
Do remember the last person Trump wanted "taken out" was killed in a Baghdad airport.

Question: Why would he be telling a bunch of hoodlums to take out the ambassador if he could just fire her?

Last edited by JohnT; 01-24-2020 at 05:03 PM.
  #113  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:08 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Unless there is actual video of him ordering it in clear, unambiguous language, the Republicans would absolutely let it slide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
I am fairly, no, make that 100% sure, of at least two things: that Trump was not involved in authorizing a hit on the ambassador, and that if he had been and evidence supported it, the vote would be 100-0 in a Senate impeachment trial to convict him. I know the man is horrible, and some Rep senators along with him, but come on!
I think these recent prop bets may actually come into play. It's like betting before some random game 5 gets you 5,000 that Kobe will get 80 points... and he's at 72 with 4 minutes left.

Let's see how this works out. (Me? I'm on team Kobe. He's gonna get his 80. Maybe nobody on the Lakers touches the ball ever again, but he's getting his 80. But I don't think the Repubs will convict. However, the House would be justified to bring up additional charges of impeachment if Parnas or the other person who is cooperating affirms they understood the President to mean 'harm'.)

Last edited by JohnT; 01-24-2020 at 06:12 PM.
  #114  
Old 01-24-2020, 08:18 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,276
Lordy, there is video. Of what, who knows, but there's video:

"NEW: Joseph Bondy, Lev Parnas’ attorney, tells me he turned over an hour long iPhone VIDEO recording to House Intel Committee of Pres Trump saying he wants to get rid of former Amb. Yovanovitch. Bondy says he hopes this will lead to a “tipping point” & Parnas will get to testify."

Bondy is to appear on Maddow tonight.

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1...793742336?s=19
  #115  
Old 01-24-2020, 08:42 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,015
I don't wanna rain on your parade and go full-on Asahi here, but...that video won't matter. Impeachment doesn't matter. People don't care. People aren't even paying attention to the impeachment trial.

As I said, they'll start paying attention when their economy collapses. But not until then.
  #116  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:40 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,788
MSNBC has the clip - I think the story is that once ABC released the story, Lev and his lawyer looked for and found his copy. Rachael Maddow was playing it and it was Trump saying exactly what they said he said . And Lev started it by talking smack about Yovanovitch, it was obvious he knew how to push Trump’s buttons.

But the interesting thing is that the tape is, I think they said, 1 hour and 24 minutes long. According to Lev’s lawyer, they were, in part, discussing that sleazy natural gas exporting deal they were working on.

And it’s kind of amusing how bad Trump is at firing people. I bet his aides are really in the habit of just ignoring him when he requests something stupid, at least the first few times.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 01-24-2020 at 10:41 PM.
  #117  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:01 PM
Moriarty's Avatar
Moriarty is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 3,243
Well, so much for the canard that Trump never knew this Parnas guy; just some rando he took a picture or two with.

Last edited by Moriarty; 01-24-2020 at 11:02 PM.
  #118  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:08 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum God View Post
In an interview aired last night on Rachel Maddow, Parnas said that Trump tried to fire Yavanovitch several times before he successfully got rid of her.

Tried?

TRIED??!!

Trump is the President of the United States and Yavanovitch was his representative in Kiev. How could he NOT fire her if that is what he wanted?
1) Sit at a dinner table with two businessmen, neither of whom has a position in the United States government.
2) Order them to fire the ambassador to "the" Ukraine.
3) Forget the matter, having now given orders and delegated.
4) Repeat.
  #119  
Old 01-25-2020, 09:08 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,015
Think for a moment about not only what the US Senate, but also the millions of voters who actively support them and also those who just don't care one way or another, are saying: It's okay to use taxpayer funds allocated for diplomacy and national security interests as a political battering ram against a political rival. This country is saying, "That's okay. No problem. None of our concern. I guess they all do it, right?"

Let it sink in.
  #120  
Old 01-25-2020, 12:20 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Think for a moment about not only what the US Senate, but also the millions of voters who actively support them and also those who just don't care one way or another, are saying: It's okay to use taxpayer funds allocated for diplomacy and national security interests as a political battering ram against a political rival. This country is saying, "That's okay. No problem. None of our concern. I guess they all do it, right?"

Let it sink in.
To be fair, your average person is going to be like "Howdafu*k does giving Ukraine a load of money protect US national security?"

Schiff missed a few points there in his presentation. He should have pointed out that the power of the purse is with Congress and that it's Congress who gets to decide where the money goes.
  #121  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:03 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
To be fair, your average person is going to be like "Howdafu*k does giving Ukraine a load of money protect US national security?"

Schiff missed a few points there in his presentation. He should have pointed out that the power of the purse is with Congress and that it's Congress who gets to decide where the money goes.
No Trump supporting MAGAt was listening to a single word Schiff was saying. Schiff may as well have been reciting the winning lottery numbers for all of next week and they still would tune him out completely in lieu of the nightly Trump Cult holy worship services lead by Hannity and Pirro.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #122  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:40 PM
margin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
To be fair, your average person is going to be like "Howdafu*k does giving Ukraine a load of money protect US national security?"

Schiff missed a few points there in his presentation. He should have pointed out that the power of the purse is with Congress and that it's Congress who gets to decide where the money goes.
Ukraine is our ally, Russia is our enemy, led by a dictator who has no problem killing people who criticize him or oppose him. (In fact, in 2006, the Duma passed a little-noticed law that gives the president of Russia the option of executing enemies of Russia on foreign soil. He does not have to explain to anyone or any governing body the decisions he makes or notify anyone of these executions. Alexander Litvinenko was promptly murdered in London.) Trump worships Putin. Putin invaded Ukraine. Assisting one of our allies to thwart the advance of a dictator is just basic allyship. If it prevents Putin from gaining more power, the world is a better place.
  #123  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:41 PM
margin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Think for a moment about not only what the US Senate, but also the millions of voters who actively support them and also those who just don't care one way or another, are saying: It's okay to use taxpayer funds allocated for diplomacy and national security interests as a political battering ram against a political rival. This country is saying, "That's okay. No problem. None of our concern. I guess they all do it, right?"

Let it sink in.

Yeah, a bunch of Americans were saying the same things in the 1930s.
  #124  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:47 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
No Trump supporting MAGAt was listening to a single word Schiff was saying. Schiff may as well have been reciting the winning lottery numbers for all of next week and they still would tune him out completely in lieu of the nightly Trump Cult holy worship services lead by Hannity and Pirro.
Fair point.
  #125  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:47 PM
Kimera757 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I would think that definitive proof of a hit ordered on Yovanovitch at Trump's order or with his assent would fall under the umbrella of attempted murder- she's an American citizen and as such, should have any issues handled through the justice system, not through extrajudicial means.
Senators supporting Trump would say "you don't win a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry".

They're putting everything on victory in November. If they win, they're home free for the next four years (unless the Democrats somehow get a supermajority in the Senate while losing the Presidency). If they lose, well, there's going to be a massive problem for them.
  #126  
Old 01-25-2020, 11:46 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,598
I was never able to find the recording on ABC, of Parnas and friends.

Here's one in Washington Examiner:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...private-dinner

Personal takeaways:

1) One year and some change into his Presidency, and the matter of Ukraine vs. Russia being an eensy weensy bit relevant to much of his campaign and rhetoric, Trump appears to have no knowledge of the situation in Ukraine.
2) For Trump, oil = money opportunity. My assumption is that he immediately forgot everything but that one fact about Ukraine as soon as he left the building, same as every other time in the previous year that people tried to teach him about the place. Which, again, obviously failed, ergo point #1.
3) These guys know exactly what to say, blending truth and fiction, and blatant ass-kissing to take advantage of Trump. They lure him with oil, they goad him with Clinton, and they loft him with tales of Putin fearing him.

This is what the Republican party likes about Trump. He's easy to understand and easy to control.

At least, that's been the case so far.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-25-2020 at 11:48 PM.
  #127  
Old 01-26-2020, 05:42 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,831
Nitpick: I like language to be very precise here at SDMB; it increases clarity and avoids confusions. I don't even like acronyms unless they're very well known.

Thus my disappointment that the slang term "hit" is used in this thread almost to the exclusion of more meaningful words like "execution" or "murder." If nothing else, insistence on the slang term is just silly. And "hit" doesn't always mean murder. UIAM in the news business, a "hit job" is not a murder — it's a concentrated effort to slur in print media. "Hit" has other slang meanings as well.

IIRC the allegedly incriminating language from the alleged potential "hitters" was also ambiguous. Let's not compound the confusion.
  #128  
Old 01-26-2020, 07:19 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10,750
He thinks he is Vito Corleone but he's actually Fredo .
  #129  
Old 01-26-2020, 07:51 AM
Robot Arm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 23,696
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Nitpick: I like language to be very precise here at SDMB; it increases clarity and avoids confusions. I don't even like acronyms unless they're very well known.

Thus my disappointment that the slang term "hit" is used in this thread almost to the exclusion of more meaningful words like "execution" or "murder." If nothing else, insistence on the slang term is just silly. And "hit" doesn't always mean murder. UIAM in the news business, a "hit job" is not a murder — it's a concentrated effort to slur in print media. "Hit" has other slang meanings as well.

IIRC the allegedly incriminating language from the alleged potential "hitters" was also ambiguous. Let's not compound the confusion.
UIAM?
  #130  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:42 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,276
Unless I Am Mistaken... got it from context.
  #131  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:03 AM
digs's Avatar
digs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: West of Wauwatosa
Posts: 10,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Nitpick: I like language to be very precise here at SDMB; it increases clarity and avoids confusions. I don't even like acronyms unless they're very well known...UIAM
C'mon, this had to be intentional, right?

WWNNK...




(Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge, KnowwhatImean?)

Last edited by digs; 01-26-2020 at 09:04 AM.
  #132  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:06 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,831
Sorry. UIAM is one of those acronyms that confounded me at first ... but I thought it was already ubiquitous here at SDMB!
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017