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Old 01-17-2020, 10:46 PM
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Which game is hardest to cheat at (NOT fix)


In light of the baseball sign stealing scandal (backing my previous thread that baseball might be the most unsportsmanlike game of all) which game is the hardest to cheat at?

I nominate soccer. There’s no special equipment to tinker, there’s no signs to steal, about all you get away with is a cheap shot behind the referees back. I know refs make a lot of questionable arbitrary calls but that doesn’t necessarily constitute “cheating” on the teams part.

MAYBE you can have the groundskeeper play games with the field I suppose but both teams basically run all over the same pitch.

Hockey rarely if ever has cheating scandals as well.

What other sports? I’m not talking fixes, PEDs, illegal recruitment etc, just in game or game prep cheating.


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Old 01-17-2020, 10:52 PM
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Is it possible to cheat playing Horseshoes?
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:54 PM
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“Cheating” means breaking the rules. So, the hardest game to cheat in would be the one with the fewest, or no, rules.

A running race is pretty hard to cheat in unless you trip the other runners. So that’s up there.

Target shooting maybe? Hard to fake a hole in the target.

How about fighting? Not Boxing, or MMA or anything with actual rules, but just straight up street fighting.

I agree with horseshoes.

Last edited by ski; 01-17-2020 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:57 PM
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“Cheating” means breaking the rules. So, the hardest game to cheat in would be the one with the fewest, or no, rules.

A running race is pretty hard to cheat in unless you trip the other runners. So that’s up there.

Target shooting maybe? Hard to fake a hole in the target.

I agree with horseshoes.
Cutting the course/taking a shortcut. Rosie Ruiz
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:57 PM
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I was going to go with a supposed sure thing-Curling...then I found this story: "Olympic Curling World Stunned By Russian Doping Scandal".
WTF?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-17-2020 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:05 PM
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Broad jump. Everyone takes off from the same spot. The landing zone is raked by the officials between jumps, and your shoes are checked before you enter the box. The only thing you could do is doping, and of course that gets the same stringent testing as every other sport. Long jump you might take an extra step, triple jump you might alter the skip a little, but standing broad jump? That's just you and your thighs, my friend.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:21 PM
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I think that steroids make it possible to cheat at almost any physical game, if the use of them is prohibited by the rules; if there is a sport which doesn't ban steroids, then that is the game with the least cheating. I assume pretty much anyone winning a gold medal at the Olympics is using steroids.

I guess I'd nominate competitive fly casting, which is about finesse, not strength. I believe the title is still held by 14 year Maxine McCormick. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/19/s...mccormick.html

Last edited by madmonk28; 01-17-2020 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:28 PM
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Chess. There's some cheating in the form of discreetly using chess computers to make one's moves ; but cheating within the game itself ? Pretty difficult IMO.
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:40 AM
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Especially speed chess.
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:13 AM
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A running race is pretty hard to cheat in unless you trip the other runners. So that’s up there.

Target shooting maybe?
It took me a moment to realize you’d changed the subject.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:11 AM
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It took me a moment to realize you’d changed the subject.
Snipers would give the other track team an unfair advantage.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:23 AM
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I nominate soccer. There’s no special equipment to tinker, there’s no signs to steal, about all you get away with is a cheap shot behind the referees back. I know refs make a lot of questionable arbitrary calls but that doesn’t necessarily constitute “cheating” on the teams part.

MAYBE you can have the groundskeeper play games with the field I suppose but both teams basically run all over the same pitch.
Um, have you ever actually watched professional soccer? You can entertain yourself for hours watching youtube compilations of the "best" cheats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC-H2wXK4T4
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:39 AM
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Um, have you ever actually watched professional soccer? You can entertain yourself for hours watching youtube compilations of the "best" cheats.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC-H2wXK4T4

UM ......UM......

already you and some others have not read or comprehended the OP so let me be the bad guy and clarify:

1. PEDs/ Steroids which can affect the outcome of almost any, if not all, competitions don’t count

2. Soccer—- players diving or making dirty tackles do not count because of poor officiating. That is an officiating problem not a “cheating” problem.

Looking for examples where players/teams/coaches take advantage regardless of game times officials incompetence!


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Old 01-18-2020, 07:05 AM
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Caber (kaber) Tossing would be hard to cheat at.
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:17 AM
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Caber (kaber) Tossing would be hard to cheat at.
Maybe if they cork the saber? Pine tar?

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Old 01-18-2020, 09:50 AM
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Of course soccer has special equipment. Make your goal smaller than the opponent's. Tamper with the ball in some way that changes how it performs, and then have your team practice with the tampered ball.

And if "not getting caught" disqualifies cheating from this discussion, as a failure of the officials rather than the players, then you could apply that to any form of cheating in any game.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:59 AM
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It took me a moment to realize you’d changed the subject.
? Not sure what you mean.

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Cutting the course/taking a shortcut. Rosie Ruiz
Good point. What about a straight line race, like a sprint, or anything on a track then.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:05 AM
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Target shooting maybe? Hard to fake a hole in the target.
I would assume that there are rules though about the weapons you could use, the ammunition you could use, where you could position yourself, etc.

Last edited by pulykamell; 01-18-2020 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:15 AM
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We pretty much had this exact same thread less than six months ago:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=879002
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:28 PM
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Diplomacy maybe. The moves are adjudicated and executed by an independent party and lying to your allies and competitors is the officially approved route to success.
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:01 PM
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Diplomacy maybe. The moves are adjudicated and executed by an independent party and lying to your allies and competitors is the officially approved route to success.
Trust me - there are any number of ways to cheat at Diplomacy, starting with "Flying Dutchmen" (pieces you surreptitiously add to the board during a game).

Note that in face-to-face play, moves are adjudicated by the players; "traditionally," Austria reads the orders in Spring 1901, then England in Fall 1901, France in Spring 1902, and so on. A player reads their own orders first, to make it harder for that player to cheat by changing their orders after seeing everybody else's.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:43 PM
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people thought fishing was not easy to cheat at until they found people adding lead weights to the fish . (the winner is the guy with the heaviest total of fish caught) They had to start x -raying fish at big tournaments.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:20 PM
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I would assume that there are rules though about the weapons you could use, the ammunition you could use, where you could position yourself, etc.
There are. I did target shooting for years, and remember competing at a pretty high level.

The sport comes with a rulebook stating a number of things. For example, before every match, my rifle was weighed by officials, because it had to weigh over a certain amount. The trigger pull weight had to fit within a certain parameter also. If my rifle passed the officials, it got a little sticker on the forestock indicating that it qualified for this competition, but not the next one, where I'd go through the same things again.

Rules also extended to your clothing and shoes, lest they give you some kind of unfair support. Your shirt, for example, could be only-so-thick. Other equipment, such as my shooting jacket and glove and sling, also had to conform to the rules. For the most part, the officials could tell if these things conformed when you checked in, and I do remember a few others being told to change their shirt, because they weren't going to be allowed to compete in it.
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:01 AM
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Of course soccer has special equipment. Make your goal smaller than the opponent's. Tamper with the ball in some way that changes how it performs, and then have your team practice with the tampered ball.

And if "not getting caught" disqualifies cheating from this discussion, as a failure of the officials rather than the players, then you could apply that to any form of cheating in any game.
There is no specific "your goal" in soccer. You play half of the game defending each goal. And a tampered ball would be quickly detected by both the other team and the refs.
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:30 AM
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people thought fishing was not easy to cheat at until they found people adding lead weights to the fish . (the winner is the guy with the heaviest total of fish caught) They had to start x -raying fish at big tournaments.
Competitive fly casting doesn't have that problem as there are no fish to catch, competitors are only going for distance and accuracy. Mostly though, the sport doesn't have a cheating problem because the stakes are so small; cheaters would end up spending $2,000 to win $1,000.

Last edited by madmonk28; 01-19-2020 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 01-19-2020, 06:52 AM
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Soccer—- players diving or making dirty tackles do not count because of poor officiating. That is an officiating problem not a “cheating” problem.
Well, "diving" is faking injury (or a foul) in the hope of inducing incorrect officiating that improperly benefits your team.

In other words, cheating.
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:33 AM
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Ultimate is unique , they do not use referees even at the highest level. They call violations on themselves. They call it spirit of the game. Cheating is very looked down on and is very rare.
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:29 AM
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Ultimate is unique , they do not use referees even at the highest level. They call violations on themselves. They call it spirit of the game. Cheating is very looked down on and is very rare.
Golfers do the same thing. But it's still possible to cheat in golf, regardless of the culture that strongly frowns on it.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:02 AM
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? Not sure what you mean.
The Other Waldo Pepper initially thought you were suggesting that shooting at the competitors in a running race would probably be considered cheating.

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Trust me - there are any number of ways to cheat at Diplomacy, starting with "Flying Dutchmen" (pieces you surreptitiously add to the board during a game).
Perhaps Red Wiggler was thinking of Diplomacy played via an online server, at which it would indeed be hard to cheat.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:16 AM
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I thought that he was referring to Diplomacy as played by actual leaders of nations, not the tabletop game that simulates it.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:19 AM
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“Cheating” means breaking the rules. So, the hardest game to cheat in would be the one with the fewest, or no, rules.

A running race is pretty hard to cheat in unless you trip the other runners. So that’s up there.

Target shooting maybe? Hard to fake a hole in the target.

How about fighting? Not Boxing, or MMA or anything with actual rules, but just straight up street fighting.

I agree with horseshoes.
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Cutting the course/taking a shortcut. Rosie Ruiz
A runner can also deliberately block or impede another runner, to throw her off her pace or stride. This happened to a runner named Heather Lieberg, who won the 2019 Austin Marathon despite being blocked for most of the race by a former elite who had been banned for doping. Lieberg finally had to simply push her way past the other runner, who gave her a shove as she went by.

Covering your bib is another way to cheat in road races. A lot of marathons also hold half-marathons, concurrently and on the same course; the color of the bib designates the race a runner is competing. Covering your bib can cause your competitors to be unsure of which race you’re in, and thus whether or not they need to pay attention or chase you. The winner of the 2018 Cleveland Marathon was accused of this.

There's also bib muling - hiring a faster runner to run with your bib, to earn you a qualifying time for another race; this is a common cheat to try to get into the Boston Marathon - and banditing, which is running a race without having signed up or paid for it. But both of those are outside the criteria of the OP.

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Good point. What about a straight line race, like a sprint, or anything on a track then.
Track races would be harder, but a runner could still cheat – start before the gun went off, leave the assigned lane too early (or at all), skip an obstacle in a steeplechase. It would be hard to get away with, as such would be fairly easily detected, but it is possible.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:33 AM
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Rules also extended to your clothing and shoes, lest they give you some kind of unfair support. Your shirt, for example, could be only-so-thick. Other equipment, such as my shooting jacket and glove and sling, also had to conform to the rules. For the most part, the officials could tell if these things conformed when you checked in, and I do remember a few others being told to change their shirt, because they weren't going to be allowed to compete in it.
Out of curiosity, how does a thicker shirt help?

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Competitive fly casting doesn't have that problem as there are no fish to catch, competitors are only going for distance and accuracy. Mostly though, the sport doesn't have a cheating problem because the stakes are so small; cheaters would end up spending $2,000 to win $1,000.
But it’s possible to cheat, right? That’s the question in the OP. Plenty of people would generally pay money for the sake of winning.

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Ultimate is unique , they do not use referees even at the highest level. They call violations on themselves. They call it spirit of the game. Cheating is very looked down on and is very rare.
The question is what sport is the most difficult to cheat. I’m sure it’s rare but how possible is it?
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:39 AM
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....But it’s possible to cheat, right? That’s the question in the OP. Plenty of people would generally pay money for the sake of winning...
I guess theoretically. You’re allowed to use any fly rod you’d like as long as it is of a certain length and you must you a specified manufacturer’s fly line which is laser etched with its weight and details. Conceivable, you could set up a factory somewhere to create counterfeit fly line after researching a way to create a fly line better than the one created by the manufacturer. You could also figure out a way to sneak in a longer than allowed fly rod by figuring out a way for the referee’s tape measure mis-measures your rod, but nobody else’s.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:53 AM
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I guess theoretically. You’re allowed to use any fly rod you’d like as long as it is of a certain length and you must you a specified manufacturer’s fly line which is laser etched with its weight and details. Conceivable, you could set up a factory somewhere to create counterfeit fly line after researching a way to create a fly line better than the one created by the manufacturer. You could also figure out a way to sneak in a longer than allowed fly rod by figuring out a way for the referee’s tape measure mis-measures your rod, but nobody else’s.
So it’s way more costly than spending $2k to win $1k. They wouldn’t have gone through all of the trouble to laser etch fishing line if there wasn’t a big problem before. Why only one manufacturer? It seems like you should be able to choose any string maker so long as it complies, like golf balls. It it because a given manufacturer sponsors the tournament?
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:59 AM
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Also, how does an alternate line give an advantage?
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:18 AM
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Maybe if they cork the saber? Pine tar?

The caber is made for the event on site as part of the event from a local tree. Everyone uses the same caber. IDK what happens if it broke.

Perhaps it would be possible to foul/grease the caber grip for the next person, though to be both effective against the opponent, not harm your toss, and get away with it would be hard to do. Though it could take out a competitor, interrupt the flow of the game, but that would be more of a coordinated effort 'fix' then a personal cheat if I get your terms correct.

The spot that it may be easier to get away with cheating is that performance enhancing drug use is prohibited in any of the Scottish games including the caber toss but it is up to the judges to order drug testing.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:33 AM
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So it’s way more costly than spending $2k to win $1k. They wouldn’t have gone through all of the trouble to laser etch fishing line if there wasn’t a big problem before. Why only one manufacturer? It seems like you should be able to choose any string maker so long as it complies, like golf balls. It it because a given manufacturer sponsors the tournament?
I can tell that this is really important to you and that you find it upsetting for some strange reason. All quality fly line is laser etched with its name, weight and taper. Different weights and tapers have different qualities. By using the same fly line, it ensures that all competitors are using the same equipment, 3 weight fly line has very different casting qualities on a 3 weight rod than 12 weight fly line on a 12 weight rod. If they did not specify the brand taper and weight of the line, people would show up with all kinds of equipment and the competition would be a mess, comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:41 AM
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I can tell that this is really important to you and that you find it upsetting for some strange reason. All quality fly line is laser etched with its name, weight and taper. Different weights and tapers have different qualities. By using the same fly line, it ensures that all competitors are using the same equipment, 3 weight fly line has very different casting qualities on a 3 weight rod than 12 weight fly line on a 12 weight rod. If they did not specify the brand taper and weight of the line, people would show up with all kinds of equipment and the competition would be a mess, comparing apples to oranges.
You are crazily off base, bro. I am legitimately curious about a sport that I was barely aware of until this morning. I’ve known a couple of avid fly fisherman who loved to explain their passion to me but I didn’t know about the competitive aspect.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:53 AM
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How about fighting? Not Boxing, or MMA or anything with actual rules, but just straight up street fighting.
Fighting has rules, or should!

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Butch Cassidy: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out.

Harvey Logan: Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!

[Butch immediately kicks Harvey in the groin]

Butch Cassidy: Well, if there aint' going to be any rules, let's get the fight started. Someone count. 1,2,3 go.

Sundance Kid: [quickly] 1,2,3, go!

[Butch knocks Harvey out]

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Old 01-20-2020, 05:21 PM
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Is there any sort of team structure to the caber toss? I can imagine a team having one guy who's legitimately very good, who makes his throw, and then his teammate who goes after him greases up the log to sabotage the other team (and his own chances, but that doesn't matter because his teammate has already racked up the points).
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Old 01-20-2020, 06:27 PM
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Is there any sort of team structure to the caber toss? I can imagine a team having one guy who's legitimately very good, who makes his throw, and then his teammate who goes after him greases up the log to sabotage the other team (and his own chances, but that doesn't matter because his teammate has already racked up the points).
No. Turning the caber is an individual event.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:16 PM
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Out of curiosity, how does a thicker shirt help?
It can damp down or hamper movement.

Target shooting (and I'm specifically referring to rifle, which is the only kind I did) is a precision sport. I'm trying to put a .22 calibre round through a bullseye that is the size of a dime, at a distance of 50 meters, and using only iron sights (i.e. no telescopic sights). A twitch, "the shakes" from too much coffee that morning, or other unwanted or involuntary movement, could throw my aim off, so we can damp down any effects by using thicker clothing.

Think of Ralphie's little brother in the movie, "A Christmas Story." Every time he goes outside, he is dressed in so many layers of clothing that he cannot move. And if he falls over, as he often does, he cannot get up--all that clothing means that he lacks the flexibility to get up. The same principle applies to target rifle shooting--the more and thicker your clothing, the stiffer you get, and thus, the less susceptible you are to unwanted or involuntary movement. So, to level the playing field among competitors, the rulebook has parameters your clothing must fit within.

My typical attire for a match was a cotton T-shirt under a thin flannel long-sleeved shirt. The combined thickness of both was within the rules, but a thicker flannel shirt or another T-shirt, would have disqualified me. My jeans and sneakers were easily inside the rules. I also had my leather shooting jacket, which was designed by the manufacturer to conform to the rules, and said so on the label. Of course, I always had my shooting glasses, for safety's sake.
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Old 01-21-2020, 03:28 AM
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people thought fishing was not easy to cheat at until they found people adding lead weights to the fish . (the winner is the guy with the heaviest total of fish caught) They had to start x -raying fish at big tournaments.
King of the Hill had a pretty great gag where Dale cheats at a fishing competition by having someone underwater place a large bass they had already purchased from a local fish market onto his hook and he reeled it in.

His only problem was that the fish was still frozen when the official weighed it.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:15 AM
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I was going to go with a supposed sure thing-Curling...then I found this story: "Olympic Curling World Stunned By Russian Doping Scandal".
WTF?
Even aside from taking banned substances, it would be possible to cheat at curling. It's rather like golf in that players are expected to call fouls against themselves. If you're sweeping and your broom happens to touch the rock, you're expected to announce it and take the appropriate penalty. The officials that you see in televised matches do very little, until they're called on for something the players can't agree on among themselves.

There are probably other ways to cheat, if you put the effort in. It doesn't take much to throw off the line of a curling stone. You could drop things on the ice to try and disturb your opponent's shots, or alter your broom to make it more effective.
  #45  
Old 01-21-2020, 08:23 AM
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Ping pong?
  #46  
Old 01-21-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
Even aside from taking banned substances, it would be possible to cheat at curling. It's rather like golf in that players are expected to call fouls against themselves. If you're sweeping and your broom happens to touch the rock, you're expected to announce it and take the appropriate penalty. The officials that you see in televised matches do very little, until they're called on for something the players can't agree on among themselves.

There are probably other ways to cheat, if you put the effort in. It doesn't take much to throw off the line of a curling stone. You could drop things on the ice to try and disturb your opponent's shots, or alter your broom to make it more effective.
Yep, the ice surface is critical and a scratch, piece of lint, a bit of water, salt, sand, etc.. can cause a pick and cause a deviation in the path. It happens quite often in regular play.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:22 PM
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Would faking an injury to game the rules, which happens in soccer and Football, be cheating? I would say yes but some people would call it "angle shooting" (i.e. using loop holes in the rules to your advantage).

Last edited by Quimby; 01-21-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Quimby View Post
Would faking an injury to game the rules, which happens in soccer and Football, be cheating? I would say yes but some people would call it "angle shooting" (i.e. using loop holes in the rules to your advantage).
It's definitely cheating (most commonly, exaggerating the extent to which you have been touched by an opponent in the hope of getting the officials to sanction them). This isn't a loophole in the rules because there isn't anything you could put in the rules to prevent it, all you can do is try to punish those who appear to be guilty of doing it.
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Old 01-21-2020, 05:01 PM
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It’s definitely cheating. If everyone fakes injuries then after a time it gets hard to distinguish fake and real ones. Eventually that may lead to serious injuries not receiving needed and timely treatment (the crying wolf syndrome).

Another way to look at it, if your strategy requires deceiving the officials it’s pretty much cheating by definition. (Deceiving your opponent is generally just being clever.)
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Ultimate is unique , they do not use referees even at the highest level. They call violations on themselves. They call it spirit of the game. Cheating is very looked down on and is very rare.
They use observers, which is all but the same as officials.
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