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Old 01-27-2020, 09:31 PM
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Would a Bernie-Warren ticket beat Trump?


I know it is early for picking running mates. But people are concerned about Bernie"s age. If he was to move on, then some of his ideas would continue.

Of course Warren would have to agree. But if it was announced before the nomination process they might get enough delegates to get the nomination.

Obviously the big picture is to oust Trump.
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:50 PM
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Heck, I'd vote for Mickey Mouse or the Devil himself it would defeat Mr. Orangeness.
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:53 PM
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Not in the known universe would they beat Trump
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:53 PM
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If I were Bernie and I wanted a female, I wouldn't choose Warren; I'd go after Harris. He would clear up any lingering concerns about his ability to relate to women and people of color, and Harris is younger. Not to mention, she's bad-ass in one-on-one debates. He also wouldn't have to answer annoying questions about how they can kiss and make up after being called a liar on TV. Warren and Sanders don't mix.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:46 PM
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Too white, too old, too Warren-y.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:47 PM
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If I were Bernie and I wanted a female, I wouldn't choose Warren; I'd go after Harris. He would clear up any lingering concerns about his ability to relate to women and people of color, and Harris is younger.
A number of my NON-white friends did not know that Harris is not white. Back when she was in the race I remember several people being surprised when I described her as a person of color.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:51 PM
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A number of my NON-white friends did not know that Harris is not white. Back when she was in the race I remember several people being surprised when I described her as a person of color.
That was then, this is now.

Kamala Harris isn't 100% black; she's black when she wants to be, but she's black and Indian and I guess brown enough. Plus she won a race in a very big, very diverse state. The objections that people had about her at the top of the ticket wouldn't be so pronounced if she were a veep. She's a great complement candidate or a lot of viagara-popping white guys.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:54 PM
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Any given pairing MIGHT beat Trump, but Sanders/Warren would be a poor choice. Either one of them needs to be paired with a younger running mate. And they already appeal to the same audience: You want to balance the ticket.
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Old 01-27-2020, 11:26 PM
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Not to mention, she's bad-ass in one-on-one debate.
Is she, though? I find her strong on offense, but weak to the point of cringey when put on the defensive.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:35 AM
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Any given pairing MIGHT beat Trump, but Sanders/Warren would be a poor choice. Either one of them needs to be paired with a younger running mate. And they already appeal to the same audience: You want to balance the ticket.
Good point. I was just thinking that their combined support might be the ticket.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. You have popped my balloon, but I am used to that.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:45 AM
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Bernie and Warren works in a game where the candidateís ages are supposed to add up to 150.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:47 AM
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A Bernie/Warren ticket would all but guarantee a second term for Trump.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:56 AM
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Sanders/Warren reminds me of Mondale/Ferraro. Except they might win a few more states than Mondale.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:04 AM
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If we want to win this thing, the VP candidate should be someone who will boost some combination of black/Hispanic/millennial turnout. (So I'd nix a Bernie/Warren ticket.) If the nominee is male, as looks likely right now, a woman on the ticket would help too.

People like us will vote. The people we need to vote are the people who might or might not vote, but will vote Dem if they do: people who don't think about politics anywhere near as much as we do, people who would have to think a moment who controls which house of Congress, and might not get it right even then. Give them a reason. Using the VP slot for that is a good start.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:15 AM
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Warren as VP to Bernie would be pointless (likewise the other way around).

- The ticket is too old.
- They are both much of a muchness. Their core constituencies are the same so this ticket doesn't expand the tent to those undecided.
- Trump would love to make the election a referendum on "socialism" and this ticket would help him do so.

I think either Bernie or Warren could win at the top of the ticket with the right VP to balance the ticket, and balance the duties of the job once elected. The VP ought to be your most trusted ally and link to Congressional leadership and when I hear about Bernie and Warren as they are running against each other for the nomination binding together in a non-aggression pack for six months to take down moderates, that doesn't give me optimism that these two together in the White House will reach out to the other factions of the party.

Warren appears to be very close with Julian Castro and that's a ticket that would work IMO. Castro has executive experience as Mayor, and administrative experience as Housing Development Secretary. He is a progressive but pragmatic enough to know sometimes we have to go for the lowest hanging fruit first (he was on Hillary's shortlist too).
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:31 AM
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Kamala Harris isn't 100% black; she's black when she wants to be, but she's black and Indian and I guess brown enough.
I dunno, described like that it does not sound like a virtue.

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People like us will vote. The people we need to vote are the people who might or might not vote, but will vote Dem if they do: people who don't think about politics anywhere near as much as we do, people who would have to think a moment who controls which house of Congress, and might not get it right even then.
This is an important detail we sometimes bubble ourselves out of. WE may vote against Trump but we need people to have something to vote FOR -- people in the places adding up to more Electoral Votes (a 150% margin in California or Illinois is pointless, a 0.5% margin in Pennsylvania or Virginia is gold).
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:03 AM
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Warren as VP to Bernie would be pointless (likewise the other way around).

- The ticket is too old.
Agreed.
Quote:
- They are both much of a muchness. Their core constituencies are the same so this ticket doesn't expand the tent to those undecided.
Agreed even more.
Quote:
- Trump would love to make the election a referendum on "socialism" and this ticket would help him do so.
Any ticket with Bernie Sanders on it is going to be a referendum on socialism no matter what Trump wants or doesn't want. And all the quibbling in the world about how democratic socialism isn't really socialism or how the military is socialist isn't going to change that.

Bernie is old and he has had a heart attack already. There is a non-trivial possibility that, if he is elected (which God forbid) his VP will become P before the next election, and before he manages to get any of his policies enacted. Warren is old as well - would she have the energy to push policy?

Biden's old and boring and a gaffe machine, but he is still the Dem's only real chance, and I still think it is a less than 50-50 chance.

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Old 01-28-2020, 12:07 PM
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Bernie-Gabbard.

That would get at least one vote he isn't getting otherwise. Bernie-Harris would make me laugh.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:16 PM
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Warren adds very little to a Bernie ticket. Harris or Booker are better choices. Someone from the Rustbelt would also be good if they could motivate independents.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:20 PM
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Seems to me Nina Turner is being groomed to be Bernie's running mate if he somehow becomes the nominee. She is one of his top surrogates and draws her own massive crowds, but she also is respected and well-liked by establishment Dems. She is also from Ohio, which is worth something I suppose.

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Old 01-28-2020, 12:21 PM
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Sanders/Warren reminds me of Mondale/Ferraro. Except they might win a few more states than Mondale.
It would be very hard not to.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:21 PM
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Two leftists in their 70s. Wouldn't appeal to a broad demographic.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:24 PM
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It would be very hard not to.
I agree. Unless there is a serious schism and a legit 3rd party run, the current political polarisation would never allow a 64/72/84 type landslide election.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:44 PM
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Seems to me Nina Turner is being groomed to be Bernie's running mate if he somehow becomes the nominee.
I think of myself as pretty well-informed on politics, and I had zero clue who she is until I googled her.

I'm at a loss to why Sanders, who I obviously have issues with but who is obviously a talented politician, would choose someone to be a heartbeat away from the presidency who got crushed in her only attempt at statewide office in Ohio and who is so easily tied to the crackpot Jill Stein.

Based just on paper, if it were a Sanders/Turner ticket, I'd be surprised if it cracked 41% of the national vote. It would be a disaster.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:51 PM
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I think of myself as pretty well-informed on politics, and I had zero clue who she is until I googled her.

I'm at a loss to why Sanders, who I obviously have issues with but who is obviously a talented politician, would choose someone to be a heartbeat away from the presidency who got crushed in her only attempt at statewide office in Ohio and who is so easily tied to the crackpot Jill Stein.

Based just on paper, if it were a Sanders/Turner ticket, I'd be surprised if it cracked 41% of the national vote. It would be a disaster.
For better or worse, Sanders is the kind of candidate who would choose ideological purity in a running mate above other considerations like electability or how prepared they would be to ascend to the presidency. I don't like Turner, actually, but she at least could draw in some more black voters and rust belt interest. She is extremely popular among Sanders' supporters and she has been hitting the media circuit hard lately.

Moot anyway- Biden will be the nominee.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:57 PM
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...

Moot anyway- Biden will be the nominee.
Maybe not, major DNC supporters are worried that Bernie has pulled ahead in the first 2 primaries. This could go to Bernie.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:06 PM
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Maybe not, major DNC supporters are worried that Bernie has pulled ahead in the first 2 primaries. This could go to Bernie.
Once the "moderate" not-Bidens drop out in February and endorse Biden, it will be over. Warren will be persuaded to stay in and continue to split the Left vote- perhaps she will or perhaps she won't, but it won't really make a difference anyway.

There is no way the donor class allows Sanders to be the nominee. And if he somehow gets it, they will simply push Bloomberg to run 3rd party. Why else do you think he is blanketing TV and social media airwaves with all these ads to boost his name recognition nationwide...
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:33 PM
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There is no way the donor class allows Sanders to be the nominee.
Lucky for them, the voting class feels the same way. On 538, the moderate group of Biden, Bloomberg and Buttigieg are solidly ahead of Sanders & Warren.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:37 PM
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Lucky for them, the voting class feels the same way. On 538, the moderate group of Biden, Bloomberg and Buttigieg are solidly ahead of Sanders & Warren.
That too. But in the unlikely event that Sanders ekes out a win, there are various eject buttons for the party and it's owners to resort to.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:39 PM
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I agree Sanders would pretty much pick a leftist person as his running mate unless he can be talked out of it. He probably would pick a woman in her 40s , 50s or early 60s.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:50 PM
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This is an important detail we sometimes bubble ourselves out of. WE may vote against Trump but we need people to have something to vote FOR -- people in the places adding up to more Electoral Votes (a 150% margin in California or Illinois is pointless, a 0.5% margin in Pennsylvania or Virginia is gold).
I think this is spot-on. People on the left are going to vote for whomever the Dem ticket is automatically (as long as they turn out). The hard-left ticket of Sanders/Warren will be doomed - I think broad elect-ability will be more important than purity. The small number of voters in key states that can be pulled over to vote Dem will decide the election IMHO.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:23 PM
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I think this is spot-on. People on the left are going to vote for whomever the Dem ticket is automatically (as long as they turn out). The hard-left ticket of Sanders/Warren will be doomed - I think broad elect-ability will be more important than purity. The small number of voters in key states that can be pulled over to vote Dem will decide the election IMHO.
Please. This was the HRC strategy and look how that turned out. She & Kaine (who??) were supposed to ride a wave of moderate Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump straight to an electoral college landslide. Schumer even said for every disenchanted leftwing voter the Democratic party lost, they would gain 2 or 3 independent suburban voters in return. Instead, on Election day the blue wall (lol) in the Midwest crumbled and took plenty of Dem Senators and Governors with it.

Yes yes, I can already hear it now. But Russia! But Comey!! But mean Bernie Bros!!! Hillary was robbed by countless conspiracies and villains, I know the mantra. Once Uncle Joe/Bland Centrist With Ovaries lose this November, there will be some new exciting conspiracy theories to look forward to.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:30 PM
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Please. This was the HRC strategy and look how that turned out. She & Kaine (who??) were supposed to ride a wave of moderate Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump straight to an electoral college landslide. Schumer even said for every disenchanted leftwing voter the Democratic party lost, they would gain 2 or 3 independent suburban voters in return. Instead, on Election day the blue wall (lol) in the Midwest crumbled and took plenty of Dem Senators and Governors with it.

Yes yes, I can already hear it now. But Russia! But Comey!! But mean Bernie Bros!!! Hillary was robbed by countless conspiracies and villains, I know the mantra. Once Uncle Joe/Bland Centrist With Ovaries lose this November, there will be some new exciting conspiracy theories to look forward to.
No. Hillary ran a bad campaign and skipped over the midwest. It's been discussed a lot why she lost - it was not because of where she was on the political spectrum.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:34 PM
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Please. This was the HRC strategy and look how that turned out. She & Kaine (who??) were supposed to ride a wave of moderate Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump straight to an electoral college landslide. Schumer even said for every disenchanted leftwing voter the Democratic party lost, they would gain 2 or 3 independent suburban voters in return. Instead, on Election day the blue wall (lol) in the Midwest crumbled and took plenty of Dem Senators and Governors with it.

Yes yes, I can already hear it now. But Russia! But Comey!! But mean Bernie Bros!!! Hillary was robbed by countless conspiracies and villains, I know the mantra. Once Uncle Joe/Bland Centrist With Ovaries lose this November, there will be some new exciting conspiracy theories to look forward to.
The problem with HRC wasn't her political positions. One has to squint moderately hard to see any differences between HRC and Obama, especially when Trump is the alternative.

People just didn't like her.

The political positions between Sanders and Obama are more significant, of course. And I don't think Sanders is very well liked. Maybe a little better than Clinton, but not nearly as much as Obama. I'm not convinced that's enough for him to win. Maybe, maybe not.

So, is Biden -- who again has positions more like Obama -- better liked than HRC? Probably. As much as Obama? Probably not. Is that enough to win? Probably.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:45 PM
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Please. This was the HRC strategy and look how that turned out. She & Kaine (who??) were supposed to ride a wave of moderate Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump straight to an electoral college landslide. Schumer even said for every disenchanted leftwing voter the Democratic party lost, they would gain 2 or 3 independent suburban voters in return. Instead, on Election day the blue wall (lol) in the Midwest crumbled and took plenty of Dem Senators and Governors with it.

Yes yes, I can already hear it now. But Russia! But Comey!! But mean Bernie Bros!!! Hillary was robbed by countless conspiracies and villains, I know the mantra. Once Uncle Joe/Bland Centrist With Ovaries lose this November, there will be some new exciting conspiracy theories to look forward to.

"W W W W what if The Orange Monster refuses to leave office in 2024????"
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:46 PM
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Obama created a new generation of Democratic voters. Hillary didn't, and Biden certainly won't. Sanders probably could, but he won't be given the chance.

Stop trying to convert the miniscule number of independent voters and moderates to your side. They are mostly soft partisans anyway, and those that aren't are just low-information voters who will just go with whoever social media algorithms tell them to. There is still roughly half the country who doesn't vote at all, and if a candidate is able to activate them they are worth more than some imaginary group of concerned, enlightened moderates.

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Old 01-28-2020, 03:05 PM
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I think of myself as pretty well-informed on politics, and I had zero clue who she is until I googled her.

I'm at a loss to why Sanders, who I obviously have issues with but who is obviously a talented politician, would choose someone to be a heartbeat away from the presidency who got crushed in her only attempt at statewide office in Ohio and who is so easily tied to the crackpot Jill Stein.

Based just on paper, if it were a Sanders/Turner ticket, I'd be surprised if it cracked 41% of the national vote. It would be a disaster.
Such a ticket would lose the Dems control of the House too.

Candidates who switched Red seats to Blue in 2018 were not on the Sanders wing of the party. Down ballot candidates might have a real problem having to campaign against their GOP opponents if the democratic ticket puts them in a bind of supporting policies that they didn't win on in 2018.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:17 PM
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Once the "moderate" not-Bidens drop out in February and endorse Biden, it will be over. Warren will be persuaded to stay in and continue to split the Left vote- perhaps she will or perhaps she won't, but it won't really make a difference anyway.

There is no way the donor class allows Sanders to be the nominee. And if he somehow gets it, they will simply push Bloomberg to run 3rd party. Why else do you think he is blanketing TV and social media airwaves with all these ads to boost his name recognition nationwide...
There is no donor class that will allow or not allow any candidate to be the nominee. Bernie will lose the nomination by his own doing, not some powerful group in the back room. Bloomberg is going to be on enough ballots as a Democrat that theyíll be enough sore loser laws to prevent a 3rd party run.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:37 PM
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Afaik, "sore loser" laws generally don't apply to Presidential elections.

Eta: not so sure now, with a Google.

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Old 01-28-2020, 03:56 PM
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People just didn't like her.
I can understand when people say they don't like Clinton as a person. She doesn't project warmth.

But what I can't understand is when people say they don't like Hillary Clinton as a person, so they voted for Donald Trump. If Clinton lacked warmth, Trump reeked of contempt.

I feel the same way about people who say they chose Trump over Clinton because they felt that Clinton was dishonest.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:10 PM
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But there are people who would have voted for another Democrat over Trump, but when presented with Clinton as the nominee, instead chose not to vote at all.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:14 PM
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Afaik, "sore loser" laws generally don't apply to Presidential elections.

Eta: not so sure now, with a Google.
Iíd have to do a lot of research state by state, but this has been one thing that often Republicans and Democrats have agreed on, although I donít believe these laws have made it to SCOTUS. The Republicans donít want the risk of a Ron Paul running as a Republican in the primary and then as a Libertarian in the general to potentially play spoiler and the Dems donít want the same for a Tulsi Gabbard running as a Green in the general. There are no landslide elections these days.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:29 PM
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But what I can't understand is when people say they don't like Hillary Clinton as a person, so they voted for Donald Trump. If Clinton lacked warmth, Trump reeked of contempt.
In addition to the people not voting, there's probably also an element that "men are assertive, women are bitchy."
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:41 PM
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Iíd have to do a lot of research state by state, but this has been one thing that often Republicans and Democrats have agreed on, although I donít believe these laws have made it to SCOTUS. The Republicans donít want the risk of a Ron Paul running as a Republican in the primary and then as a Libertarian in the general to potentially play spoiler and the Dems donít want the same for a Tulsi Gabbard running as a Green in the general. There are no landslide elections these days.
Of course the Rs and Ds can agree on that, lol. But from Ballotpedia
Quote:
. Richard Winger, editor and publisher of Ballot Access News, has argued that, generally speaking, "sore loser laws have been construed not to apply to presidential primaries." In August 2015, Winger compiled a list of precedents supporting this interpretation. He argued that in 43 of the 45 states with sore loser laws on the books, the laws do not seem to apply to presidential candidates. Winger claimed that sore loser laws apply to presidential candidates in only two states: South Dakota and Texas.
Which is followed by a table listing people who were on a party primary ballot but then ran under a different label in the general.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:48 PM
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Eta: there's some issues with that list though. It examples Vermont's '88 election but they passed their sore loser law in 2010.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:56 PM
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Warren/Castro or Warren/Booker would be incredible tickets.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:58 PM
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Biden/Klobuchar or Biden/Warren seem like good ideas too.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
But there are people who would have voted for another Democrat over Trump, but when presented with Clinton as the nominee, instead chose not to vote at all.
I voted for the pothead because I didnít want to vote for Trump and I was pissed off at the Democratic Party for annotating a candidate before the country could decide. Itís their own damn fault they have to deal with a non-democrat like Bernie. He wouldnít even be a blip on the radar now if last primary season there was a crowded field. We probably would be talking about if President Biden will get re-elected.

Of course I could afford to cast a protest vote. Iím in a firmly blue state. If I were in a swing state I would have had to re-evaluate.
  #49  
Old 01-28-2020, 05:47 PM
dalej42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
I voted for the pothead because I didnít want to vote for Trump and I was pissed off at the Democratic Party for annotating a candidate before the country could decide. Itís their own damn fault they have to deal with a non-democrat like Bernie. He wouldnít even be a blip on the radar now if last primary season there was a crowded field. We probably would be talking about if President Biden will get re-elected.

Of course I could afford to cast a protest vote. Iím in a firmly blue state. If I were in a swing state I would have had to re-evaluate.
The Democratic Party doesnít anoint candidates. You surely know this. People like myself carried clipboards for her and one of my friends put 60-80 hours a week getting her nominated. I knew of Bernie Sanders when he announced: he was a useless windbag and a joke in Congress. He proved himself in the primaries to not only be a useless windbag and a joke but to also to be a vile bag of shit. He did succeed in creating a cult, making millions, and sitting back while his wife bankrupted a college.

Third parties are despicable and a way for some voters to feel extremely pure. Iíd have more respect for you if you just would have just voted Trump.
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  #50  
Old 01-28-2020, 06:31 PM
jaycat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
Seems to me Nina Turner is being groomed to be Bernie's running mate if he somehow becomes the nominee.
Loved her with Ike.
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