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Old 01-28-2020, 06:59 PM
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I don't understand what Republican senators are afraid of.


Let's say that I'm a Republican senator who is not a big fan of Trump. However, I have all the other usual conservative bonafides: hate gays, hate abortion, wants to bomb brown people, pro-business, pro tax cuts, etc. I stand for my reelection this year. Why shouldn't I vote against Trump's interests in the impeachment trial? What could Trump do to me?

The filing deadline for the primary is over in all fifty states. If I have a primary challenger, is the person someone that Trump could endorse? If so, I may have a problem. If I don't have a challenger, then Trump can't hurt me there. So, then comes the November election. What are the voters back home going to do? Are they going to vote for the gay-loving, tree-hugging, "open borders" Democrat? Not hardly. Trump isn't going to endorse the Democrat. So how can he hurt me there?

Let's say I vote to convict Trump. If enough of my colleagues also vote to convict, then Trump is no longer president. Now, he's still got fans back home. But, again, what choice do they have? They can't run a primary challenger at this point. They're not going to vote for the pinko commie socialist Democrat. So, I'm the only guy they've got. They may be mad at me, but they've got no one else to vote for. When I run again in six years, they will have long ago forgotten about my Trump betrayal. Trump may have a lot fewer fans by then anyway.

I can also point out that convicting Trump brought Pence into the White House. He's a real Dominionist Christian. He hates gays and abortion and all the other stuff. He doesn't brag about grabbing women by the pussy -- hell, he won't even meet with a woman without Mother being there. Pence is the real deal for the "family values" crowd. What's the downside?
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:02 PM
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Putin's got dirt on all of them too.

Ok, I can't prove that, but you have to admit it explains their behaviour nicely.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:06 PM
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I don't think any of the Senators running in 2020 are past the day when someone can't file to run against them in a primary. Until those deadlines pass, these senators won't make waves.

Also they're a bunch of corrupt cowards.

Last edited by squeegee; 01-28-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:07 PM
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Think of it as herd immunity. So long as all the Republicans band together on this, they're all covering each others' backs. Anybody who stands out from the crowd and goes against everybody's wishes is like an anti-vaxxer refusing to vaccinate their kids. Somebody who goes against Trump is going to be demonized by the party and they'll be up a creek without a paddle, politically speaking.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:12 PM
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When are the actual election ballots finalised?

Presumably even if a Republican senator isn't primaried, he could still be up against a "more Trumpier than Thou" independent in the actual election, right? And official independents occasionally win senate seats.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:15 PM
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Think of it as herd immunity. So long as all the Republicans band together on this, they're all covering each others' backs. Anybody who stands out from the crowd and goes against everybody's wishes is like an anti-vaxxer refusing to vaccinate their kids. Somebody who goes against Trump is going to be demonized by the party and they'll be up a creek without a paddle, politically speaking.
I think you nailed it on this.

I've asked myself the same question the OP has over and over. A republican in a place in the US that is prominently republican in government has it easy if they stay together. To win a reelection, they can just point out all that "wasted time with dems not doing their jobs" (as many repubs already state). That is probably enough to keep their voters that already back them.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:28 PM
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As far as I can see, the only issue for Republican senators isn't that they themselves will be jeopardized, as it is that dumping Trump makes it likelier that a Democrat will be in the White House in 2021. It dampens the Republican momentum, whichever new GOP nominee that emerges won't have Trump's current $400 million war chest, it will dampen Republican turnout at the polls in November.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:30 PM
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I think you nailed it on this.

I've asked myself the same question the OP has over and over. A republican in a place in the US that is prominently republican in government has it easy if they stay together. To win a reelection, they can just point out all that "wasted time with dems not doing their jobs" (as many repubs already state). That is probably enough to keep their voters that already back them.
I can see the herd immunity argument, but where are those Republican voters going to go? They can't vote for the Democrat. They've got no choice but to vote for the Republican, even if he's voted against Trump. And the senator can spin it as not a vote against Trump, but a vote FOR the saintly Pence.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:32 PM
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Politically I see where they're coming from -- the Republican party now needs a big chunk of disgruntled voters who are excited by Trump and don't trust anyone else. I think they think there's a very high chance those voters will vote 3rd party or stay home if the GOP turns against Trump.

Morally reprehensible, but it makes sense politically, AFAICT. I think there really might be a large chunk of the GOP electorate that are essentially "Trump or nothing" voters at this point. At this moment, the GOP has absolutely no chance to win without these voters, even if they're only 10-20% of the party (and I think they might be a lot more).

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Old 01-28-2020, 07:49 PM
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I can see the herd immunity argument, but where are those Republican voters going to go? They can't vote for the Democrat. They've got no choice but to vote for the Republican, even if he's voted against Trump. And the senator can spin it as not a vote against Trump, but a vote FOR the saintly Pence.
They can stay at home. If you've interacted with a good deal of Trumpers on Facebook, you'll see that their loyalty is to Trump, not the Republican Party. They have no qualms attacking other Republicans such as Romney, Bolton, and anyone who isn't aboard the Trump train. If Trump is deposed from office, a good chunk of them WILL stay home out of protest.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:21 PM
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If a Republican Senator votes for impeachment/removal, his constituents won't vote for a Dem, and may not vote at all. There's the rub.

eta: or what velocity said above.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:30 PM
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They're riding the tiger.

If you're a Republican Senator, you can't try to appeal to sensible rational voters at this point. Those people are going to vote for a Democrat. Your only hope is sticking with the crazies and hoping things will somehow work out.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:30 PM
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There is always a write in campaign, it worked for Lisa Murkowski in 2010 in Alaska. And yes I know Alaska is a very small state in population.

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Old 01-28-2020, 08:34 PM
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As far as I can see, the only issue for Republican senators isn't that they themselves will be jeopardized, as it is that dumping Trump makes it likelier that a Democrat will be in the White House in 2021. It dampens the Republican momentum, whichever new GOP nominee that emerges won't have Trump's current $400 million war chest, it will dampen Republican turnout at the polls in November.
This. To them, Trump is better than any Democrat. If Trump is convicted, a lot of his rabid supporters will stay home and not vote at all. That gives us a Democratic president and maybe even a Democrat in their Senate seat if theirs is up for grabs in November.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:39 PM
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I heard someone on the radio the other shady talking about how Trumpists is really a cult, and I thought, “Wow, that explains a lot!”

All the lies and fear, unflinching support, and so on... but one key component of cults is that the threat of being expelled is such a powerful deterrent to independent thought. I’m sure we’ve all seen or read about cult members who are told they have to cut off relationships with apostates. To me, as a non-cultist, I think: oh hell yeah! What do I want with a bunch of crazies anyway? Shun me, do it now!

But when your entire community is limited to people who see things exactly the way the leader wants them to, being exiled from everything you know can be a powerful threat.

I think Republican politicians are in that same enmeshed relationship with each other that stepping out of line is as traumatic as attempting to break out of Scientology or whatever. It isn’t that you’re going to be murdered or anything, you’re just setting yourself up for a lonely life and losing everything you’ve worked to achieve.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:56 PM
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Let's say that I'm a Republican senator who is not a big fan of Trump. However, I have all the other usual conservative bonafides: hate gays, hate abortion, wants to bomb brown people, pro-business, pro tax cuts, etc. I stand for my reelection this year. Why shouldn't I vote against Trump's interests in the impeachment trial? What could Trump do to me?
It's not what Trump can do to you; it's what his committed voters can do to you. There's enough of them in your district to make you care what happens to Trump. But voters are fickle, indeed. There's no guarantee they're going to help you. But the fear is that they can hurt you either by supporting a primary challenger or by not supporting you against a Democratic challenger.

But the voters are only part of the equation. Politics is a career, and that career continues long after you're out of office. You can make a career by being part of the conservative political ecosystem and helping republican causes. But if you are seen as disloyal, then you can be exiled from that ecosystem. And right now, Trump is at the apex of that power structure. A sitting president usually is.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:00 PM
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Good discussion. Thank you.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:03 PM
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They're riding the tiger.

If you're a Republican Senator, you can't try to appeal to sensible rational voters at this point. Those people are going to vote for a Democrat. Your only hope is sticking with the crazies and hoping things will somehow work out.
They're thinking about the long game - longer than just their own time in the senate. There's a reason that congressmen and women retire and even in retirement are careful not to overstay their welcome by being too vocal about their concerns with Trump. And they're not just afraid of Trump - they're afraid of McConnell, afraid of Fox News, afraid of the billionaires bankrolling their causes, afraid of think tanks and Breitbart.

I mean what do politicians normally do when they're not in office? Spend time around people who are and who want to be.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:07 PM
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In addition, we can't overlook the spite factor. No matter how guilty Trump may be, or how removing him may benefit the GOP, kicking him out of office via a 2/3 Senate vote would be an enormous PR victory for the Democrats. Those Democrats. The Democ-RATS. Many Republican senators, presumably, just like the rank-and-file GOP vote, couldn't stomach that. The liberal cheering and champagne-popping would nauseate their entire red party base.

Last edited by Velocity; 01-28-2020 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:44 PM
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Trump is petty and vindictive and holds the Republican base in an iron grip. If the party turns against him he will burn the whole thing down to the ground on his way out. He will spend every minute he has left in his miserable life making it hell for any and all Republicans.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:01 PM
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Trump is petty and vindictive and holds the Republican base in an iron grip. If the party turns against him he will burn the whole thing down to the ground on his way out. He will spend every minute he has left in his miserable life making it hell for any and all Republicans.
You're giving Trump too much power -- stop doing that.

Trump has succeeded because he 63 million people willingly, eyes-wide-open bought what he was selling. (Hint: They wanted to buy it, and he knew that). He ran his unconventional campaign knowing all along that he would attract a following. Did he think he'd win the whole thing? Maybe not, but he knew that he had millions of followers all along: millions of people who didn't value existing democratic and political norms.

Attributing power to Trump as though he has some sort of spell over people is missing the point and letting our nation of fools off the hook. It's the person sitting next to you in a bar, the guy wearing the Cabela's hat at that BBQ restaurant you like going to. Trump isn't a magician; it's those people who give Trump his power.

It's also the billionaires who invest in propaganda campaigns that dumb down the population and who pay for people like McConnell to obstruct majorities and deconstruct institutions that were once trusted by people.

People like Trump succeed when they have support at the top and and from underneath. If you create tension and friction either at the top or underneath, then you weaken Trump. I don't see Trump being weakened by divisions at the top until we see weakening and divisions from the grassroots - that happens when things get fucked up for them personally.

Last edited by asahi; 01-28-2020 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:06 PM
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You're giving Trump too much power -- stop doing that.

Trump has succeeded because he 63 million people willingly, eyes-wide-open bought what he was selling. (Hint: They wanted to buy it, and he knew that). He ran his unconventional campaign knowing all along that he would attract a following. Did he think he'd win the whole thing? Maybe not, but he knew that he had millions of followers all along: millions of people who didn't value existing democratic and political norms.

Attributing power to Trump as though he has some sort of spell over people is missing the point and letting our nation of fools off the hook. It's the person sitting next to you in a bar, the guy wearing the Cabela's hat at that BBQ restaurant you like going to. Trump isn't a magician; it's those people who give Trump his power.

It's also the billionaires who invest in propaganda campaigns that dumb down the population and who pay for people like McConnell to obstruct majorities and deconstruct institutions that were once trusted by people.

People like Trump succeed when they have support at the top and and from underneath. If you create tension and friction either at the top or underneath, then you weaken Trump. I don't see Trump being weakened by divisions at the top until we see weakening and divisions from the grassroots - that happens when things get fucked up for them personally.
It doesn't matter where and how Trump gets his power, he still has it. The GOP is in no position to give up any voters at all, what % do you think stays home on Trump's say so? even 1 would be utterly catastrophic for them.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:17 PM
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The electorate has been propagandized into believing that we live in a democracy and should live in a democracy.

Consequently, they elect yes-men because they hate the idea that some guy in a suit who talked to experts and read the Constitution might overrule their desires.

Yes-men say "yes". There's nothing more nor less to it.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-28-2020 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:18 PM
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The OP is imagining some GOP Senator lying awake at night fretting, "What to do? What to do?"

Really? REALLY? Not a chance.

They are in power, and winning. What have they got to be worried about? That some slim number of their voters are listening to reason from the Democrats? From ADAM SCHIFF? Snort. Tell me another one!.

They will vote party line on the Impeachment, and it'll be over. Trump and McConnell will make sure they will keep getting the PAC money and they will all hold hands and skip merrily along into the shiny GOP/Trump future.

And we will come here and start another thread decrying the fall of man.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:32 PM
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Trump is untouchable because the people who own US elections are happy with his policies. Their taxes have gone down, their companies are being freed from regulation, the courts are being packed with obedient judges, and the poor are getting poorer - which gives them a huge pool of cheap labor willing to work for just about any money.

Our current situation was made inevitable by the Citizen's United decision, and if it hadn't been Trump, it would have been somebody else.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:33 PM
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Oh I disagree. Just from being in DC all these years, the fear of Republican politicians over the whole Tea Party/Trump faction is clearly real.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:28 PM
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With the rock solid rabids, its still kinda thin, the Republican candidate has to draw the money/business tighty righty. What are lately thought of as "moderates". The thirty five percent is unshakeable, but still thirty five. Its like the halfback who can always get you five yards rushing. You need three, you get five, you need eight, you get five.

Other hand, now that they've sold to Trump, they gotta have them. With them. slim chance, without them, none.

I feel a twinge of sympathy. No, wait, that's a chuckle....

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Old 01-29-2020, 12:25 AM
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Trump is untouchable because the people who own US elections are happy with his policies. Their taxes have gone down, their companies are being freed from regulation, the courts are being packed with obedient judges, and the poor are getting poorer - which gives them a huge pool of cheap labor willing to work for just about any money.
I don't feel this is completely true. I'm not disputing that big donors are getting what they paid for from Republicans. I just don't feel that Trump is part of the plan.

Trump's just looking out for Trump. He wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone but himself, including other millionaires.

If Trump is helping the plutocrats, it's by staying out of the way while other Republicans are doing the actual work. At best, his antics serve to divert attention away from the quiet work being done by others.

But I think the plutocrats would prefer to have a better face on the party. Somebody who isn't rocking the boat the way Trump is and threatening the whole system. The last thing the wealthy want to see is people getting motivated to change things.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:27 AM
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It's simple, and one of the Republican senators has been honest enough to spell it out instead of toeing the party line. I think he's from Indiana, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

He said, basically, that there's little to no chance that senators haven't made up their minds yet, Democrat and Republican both. There's little to no chance that anything anyone could say would change their minds, because their decision doesn't have anything to do with evidence. Either they already believe that he did it, and it matters, that he did it and it doesn't matter, or that he didn't do it. He frankly said that his constituents don't want a guilty vote, so he won't give a guilty vote. Witnesses will only drag out the "trial" and the end result will be the same. It's a waste of time.


I almost admire him for at least being honest instead of making a truth-pretzel out of FOX News conspiracy theories and flat out lies to pretend that it's all just a hoax. Almost.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:28 AM
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People don't have to vote for a candidate from the Other Lot to do harm to a candidate from Their Lot who's done something they object to. They just stay at home, and The Other Lot win at a canter (as happened in the UK in December - the Tories' majority didn't come from a massive increase in their vote, but from Labour losing 2 million votes).
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:13 AM
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It's simple, and one of the Republican senators has been honest enough to spell it out instead of toeing the party line. I think he's from Indiana, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

He said, basically, that there's little to no chance that senators haven't made up their minds yet, Democrat and Republican both. There's little to no chance that anything anyone could say would change their minds, because their decision doesn't have anything to do with evidence. Either they already believe that he did it, and it matters, that he did it and it doesn't matter, or that he didn't do it. He frankly said that his constituents don't want a guilty vote, so he won't give a guilty vote. Witnesses will only drag out the "trial" and the end result will be the same. It's a waste of time.


I almost admire him for at least being honest instead of making a truth-pretzel out of FOX News conspiracy theories and flat out lies to pretend that it's all just a hoax. Almost.
Except that his job description is to do what he has sworn an oath to do, not to give the people what they want. It's not Hollywood film production, it's deliberation of legal, economic, and philosophical matters.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:29 AM
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Romney can probably stay in the Senate as long as he wants but he's 72 so he probably serves 2 terms at most. But it's very unlikely he votes to convict Trump. He may vote for witnesses.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:53 AM
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I heard someone on the radio the other shady talking about how Trumpists is really a cult, and I thought, “Wow, that explains a lot!”
Absolutely. And part of the cult structure is that the laity will turn against any midlevel person who doesn't sufficiently support the cult leader--or even against another member of the laity who doesn't show sufficient support.

And one of the easiest ways to show support is to attack apostates.

The structure is really self-reinforcing, and it's very hard to get someone out of the structure unscathed.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:42 AM
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Republicans are mostly afraid of their increasingly minority status in the voting pool. They're not stupid, they can read the demographics reports as well as Dems can. Unity is their only chance to defeat the numerically superior but far more disorganized Democrats. If that means a Trump in the White House for 12 more years, then that's what they'll work for.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:40 AM
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What I'm interested in in regards to this is whether any of these current Republican senators are considering a presidential run in the next 10-20 years and whether this right now is some kind of "War with Iraq" moment which they can use to get political points later on.

"I was one of the few who voted to convict the criminal in chief in 2020 when our democracy/constitution were at stake"

I'm saying this because I feel like in a few years time the country may reflect on this moment differently and even the republicans will look at things more soberly.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:54 AM
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Let's say that I'm a Republican senator who is not a big fan of Trump. However, I have all the other usual conservative bonafides: hate gays, hate abortion, wants to bomb brown people, pro-business, pro tax cuts, etc. I stand for my reelection this year.
Can you find any republican senators that hate gays, hate abortion, want to bomb brown people, are pro-business, pro tax cuts AND also support the impeachment and want Trump removed from office?

Quote:
Why shouldn't I vote against Trump's interests in the impeachment trial? What could Trump do to me?
Because you risk having your name and reputation dragged through the mud on a national level. As soon as Trump says something bad about you, even if it's not true, it's going to be a soundbyte that's going to get played over and over and over and talked about on every Fox program for the next day or two.
OTOH, stand with him and he can say good things about you, which will get plenty of airtime as well.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:07 PM
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What I'm interested in in regards to this is whether any of these current Republican senators are considering a presidential run in the next 10-20 years and whether this right now is some kind of "War with Iraq" moment which they can use to get political points later on.

"I was one of the few who voted to convict the criminal in chief in 2020 when our democracy/constitution were at stake"

I'm saying this because I feel like in a few years time the country may reflect on this moment differently and even the republicans will look at things more soberly.
I would suggest that, much like anti-vaxxers who think that they are believing science, there are plenty of those on the right who think that they are soberly considering democracy/constitution right now, and coming to the complete opposite conclusion than you and I.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:15 PM
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Let's say that I'm a Republican senator who is not a big fan of Trump. However, I have all the other usual conservative bonafides: hate gays, hate abortion, wants to bomb brown people, pro-business, pro tax cuts, etc. I stand for my reelection this year. Why shouldn't I vote against Trump's interests in the impeachment trial? What could Trump do to me?

(1) The filing deadline for the primary is over in all fifty states. If I have a primary challenger, is the person someone that Trump could endorse? If so, I may have a problem. If I don't have a challenger, then Trump can't hurt me there. So, then comes the November election. What are the voters back home going to do? Are they going to vote for the gay-loving, tree-hugging, "open borders" Democrat? Not hardly. Trump isn't going to endorse the Democrat. So how can he hurt me there?

Let's say I vote to convict Trump. If enough of my colleagues also vote to convict, then Trump is no longer president. Now, he's still got fans back home. But, again, what choice do they have? They can't run a primary challenger at this point. They're not going to vote for the pinko commie socialist Democrat. So, I'm the only guy they've got. (2) They may be mad at me, but they've got no one else to vote for. When I run again in six years, they will have long ago forgotten about my Trump betrayal. Trump may have a lot fewer fans by then anyway.

I can also point out that convicting Trump brought Pence into the White House. He's a real Dominionist Christian. He hates gays and abortion and all the other stuff. He doesn't brag about grabbing women by the pussy -- hell, he won't even meet with a woman without Mother being there. Pence is the real deal for the "family values" crowd. What's the downside?
(1) is wrong:

https://ballotpedia.org/State_and_fe...lines_for_2020

Only 11 States have passed their filing deadlines.

(2) They have the option of not voting.

The biggest problem with pissing off the MAGA crowd with a removal vote isn't solely for the Senator involved... though that may be the case... but for the party as a whole. A lot of down-ballot races depend upon turnout, and if the MAGA crowd doesn't turn out because they can't vote for Trump, they're also not voting for the Repub running for the 6th Circuit Court Judge or the Republican slate of aldermen, etc.
  #39  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:20 PM
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Trump is untouchable because the people who own US elections are happy with his policies. Their taxes have gone down, their companies are being freed from regulation, the courts are being packed with obedient judges, and the poor are getting poorer - which gives them a huge pool of cheap labor willing to work for just about any money.

Our current situation was made inevitable by the Citizen's United decision, and if it hadn't been Trump, it would have been somebody else.
I think you’re slightly exaggerating things. I think large companies want consistency in taxation and regulations. They don’t want everything to zig zag all over the place with every change in Washington. It’s not like the Democrats are going to be in the wilderness forever. There’s a reason new coal plants aren’t springing up everywhere, that’s a substantial capital investment that could be undone with some votes in November.

Also, most of the large population states are blue or at least 50/50. If you’re going to do business in those states, you can expect more regulation at the state level.
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  #40  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:34 PM
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What I'm interested in in regards to this is whether any of these current Republican senators are considering a presidential run in the next 10-20 years and whether this right now is some kind of "War with Iraq" moment which they can use to get political points later on.

"I was one of the few who voted to convict the criminal in chief in 2020 when our democracy/constitution were at stake"

I'm saying this because I feel like in a few years time the country may reflect on this moment differently and even the republicans will look at things more soberly.
I'm sure there are a few Republican senators who are thinking that - that since all it takes is 34 votes to ensure that Trump stays in office, that it means that 19 lucky Republicans can afford to defect and be perceived as "I voted against the war in Iraq", so to speak, and still keep Trump as president. Having their cake and eating it too.
  #41  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:46 PM
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(1) is wrong:

https://ballotpedia.org/State_and_fe...lines_for_2020

Only 11 States have passed their filing deadlines.
Thank you for the correction.
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  #42  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:46 PM
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Trump has like a 90%+ approval rating among Republican voters. If they vote against Trump, he tweets shit about them, the voters choose Trump over their senator, approval rate goes down, chance of losing the election goes up.

Quite simple.
  #43  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:47 PM
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What do you think would happen if there were a secret ballot?

I am opposed to a secret ballot because I think each senator should be made to own his/her vote on this or any other issue. But what if...?
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  #44  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:47 PM
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Think of it as herd immunity. So long as all the Republicans band together on this, they're all covering each others' backs. Anybody who stands out from the crowd and goes against everybody's wishes is like an anti-vaxxer refusing to vaccinate their kids. Somebody who goes against Trump is going to be demonized by the party and they'll be up a creek without a paddle, politically speaking.
I mean, this is the logical option assuming that there is nothing sinister lurking in the background. But, I just don't get this mentality. Being a Congress person is a job. There are other jobs. I've left jobs that were asking me to do things I was uncomfortable with and I didn't have the cushy landing pad (or the public acclaim for being a hero) that await these guys.

There is no job on Earth worth this.
  #45  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:42 PM
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Putin's got dirt on all of them too.

Ok, I can't prove that, but you have to admit it explains their behaviour nicely.
Yeah, they hacked the RNC too but never released their findings.

There are several reasons I'm sure.

- speaking out against Trump means you lose a primary election
- The GOP probably has a private sector job market for ex politicians. if you speak out against Trump maybe you get blacklisted from the good six/seven figure private sector jobs.
- The base of the GOPs base (a small % of GOP voters) are armed white nationalists who think they work for god, so you may be a target of domestic terrorism
- Putin may have blackmail material on some senators or perhaps their families.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 01-29-2020 at 02:44 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:22 PM
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If a senator voted to impeach, there is no upside, only downside. Democrats are not going to vote for him. He could anger Trump fans enough to stay home and not vote. If a significant fraction of his voters do this he loses. Each senator has a different degree of freedom depending on how much of their base are Trump fans but the number who could vote for impeachment and win reelection comfortably could be counted on one hand. Then there are the two thirds who could face a primary contest if they vote for removal.
The number who can't be primaried and could stand to lose a significant portion of their voters is tiny.
  #47  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:26 PM
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nm

Last edited by RTFirefly; 01-29-2020 at 03:27 PM.
  #48  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I've left jobs that were asking me to do things I was uncomfortable with and I didn't have the cushy landing pad (or the public acclaim for being a hero) that await these guys.
I was gonna mention the problem with that cushy landing pad, but Wesley beat me to it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
- The GOP probably has a private sector job market for ex politicians. if you speak out against Trump maybe you get blacklisted from the good six/seven figure private sector jobs.
If you stay on the team, you've got a great future ahead of you after Congress - right-wing think tanks, lobbying and consulting firms, all of which pay way better than being a U.S. Congressperson.

If your loyalty to the team is questionable, then you lose all that, you lose your Congressional seat in all likelihood, and you're back to doing whatever you did before you ran for Congress in the first place, or you retire to a retired life that's OK but way less than all your (now former) buddies from DC are making.

When you get used to inhabiting a perk-laden world, it's hard to throw all that away.
  #49  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Drum God View Post
What do you think would happen if there were a secret ballot?

I am opposed to a secret ballot because I think each senator should be made to own his/her vote on this or any other issue. But what if...?
With a secret ballot, I think Trump is gone.
  #50  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:37 PM
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And per Ravenman and LHoD, it really IS a cult at this point. Look what's happened to Justin Amash: he had no choice but to leave the party.

It really IS about Trump; it wasn't like this under Reagan or either Bush. And it's worse now than it was even just a couple years ago, when McCain, Collins, and Murkowski all voted with the Dems to preserve the ACA: in 2017, it wasn't entirely Trump's party yet. Now it is.
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