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  #51  
Old 02-05-2020, 10:54 AM
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I chose option A.
No, you didn't. You literally just chose option B in your reply to me, which is why I called you out.
  #52  
Old 02-05-2020, 10:58 AM
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It seems to me that it's ONLY the Sanders fans that are the ones saying that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, then they will stay home and not vote, no?

I would never attack or denigrate anyone for supporting Sanders or any other candidate. But anyone that flounces off and refuses to vote because their preferred candidate wasn't selected is a child and deserves all the scorn they get.

Last edited by Mind's Eye, Watering; 02-05-2020 at 10:59 AM.
  #53  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:02 AM
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A Bernie Sanders supporter who hosts the very popular leftist podcast Chapo Trap House

Howard Dean, Bernie's ex Governor, and the progressive left's favorite of 2004 responds:

  #54  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:04 AM
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...But anyone that flounces off and refuses to vote because their preferred candidate wasn't selected is a child and deserves all the scorn they get.
Edited to add that those that behave this way are no more concerned about America and our Constitution than the Orange Anus and his MAGAtrash fans.
  #55  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:11 AM
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No matter how much you like the octogenarian's agenda, and no matter how optimistic you are about his defeating Donald Trump, Sanders will no't make a good President. I'd rather see him remain in the Senate and push his ideas from there.

It was the warrior Eisenhower who ended the Korean War and averted a shooting war over the Suez Canal. It was the anti-communist Nixon who welcomed The P.R. of China to the world stage, and the anti-communist Reagan who supported Gorbachev.

And who signed the Civil Rights Acts in the mid-1960's? The same man who
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndon Baines Johnson
... asked Parker [his chauffeur[ whether he'd prefer to be referred to by his name rather than "boy," "nigger" or "chief." When Parker said he would, Johnson grew angry and said, "As long as you are black, and you're gonna be black till the day you die, no one's gonna call you by your goddamn name. So no matter what you are called, nigger, you just let it roll off your back like water, and you'll make it. Just pretend you're a goddamn piece of furniture."
If/when progressive legislation is signed into law, it will probably be by a moderate Democrat.

But the more extreme progressive agenda will not be signed into law any time soon. Even if the Ds get 50 Senate seats, and even if they have the balls to pack the Court (they won't), and even if they have the balls to eliminate filibuster (they won't), there still will not be 50 Senators who vote Yea for student debt cancellation, nor for a wealth tax. And the more modest progressive proposals they might vote for, they'll be much happier with if a moderate sits in the Oval Office. Sanders will accomplish nothing except what he can do via Executive Order.
  #56  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:12 AM
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It seems to me that it's ONLY the Sanders fans that are the ones saying that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, then they will stay home and not vote, no?
They're just doing what Sanders is doing, walking away from the party the instant Sanders stops being the Democratic candidate for President.
  #57  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:15 AM
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No, you didn't. You literally just chose option B in your reply to me, which is why I called you out.
Really? Read your two options. Which one is closer to what I said?

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Let’s see those who support Bernie show some respect for those of us who have other preferences without accusing us of sucking corporate penises.
  #58  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:17 AM
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Sanders will accomplish nothing except what he can do via Executive Order.
He'll STILL be better than Little Donny Fail-Fail.
  #59  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:19 AM
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Or you could look at the reality of who voted which way and not make up stupid shit to confirm you own ageism. {...}
Or I could be remembering the fallout from the 68 convention and how a 'law and order' Republican seemed like a sound choice to middle America.
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{...} You're literally arguing for disenfranchising young people. {...}
I am?
Cause;
A: I never said that.
B: I might just think that if your choice is between the Private fresh out of boot camp and the grizzled Sargent who's seen two tours and served in the last war that maybe it should be clear who's orders you follow when the shit is hitting the fan.

Now remind me who the bright eyed and bushy tailed 60s political activists got elected?
Let's see; Nixon, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Reagan, George H. W. Bush, (the, now, despised) Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, George W. Bush . . . yeah, those 1960s kids changed the face of American politics in such a great way.

CMC fnord!
  #60  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:23 AM
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I've never seen a Democrat that wants Biden/Warren/Kloubachar/Pete/whatever say they won't vote for Sanders if he's the nominee. I have seen a lot (not all!) Sanders supporters say they won't for the Dem nominee if it isn't Sanders.

Then we get a thread that is basically:

All you stupid piece of shit corporate whores better be nice to me or I'll help re-elect Trump.

And this is supposed to run counter to the narrative about Sanders supporters?
  #61  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:50 AM
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So do you say

A) Okay, Bernie is too extreme for the American public right now. But we appreciate your support and we hear you. So we’re going to do what we can to integrate your platform into our party and welcome you aboard

Or

B) Fuck you, you stupid fucking Bernie Bros. You’re all a bunch of fucking idiot children who can’t play with the adults. We know the candidate we want to shove down your throat will shit on you and won’t do anything to help with the positive changes you want in society, but what are you going to do, vote for Trump? Go fuck yourselves and eat your shit sandwich.
And people say there are no stupid questions.
  #62  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:01 PM
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It seems to me that it's ONLY the Sanders fans that are the ones saying that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, then they will stay home and not vote, no?
It's also the Yang fans, but among the major contenders, it's just Sanders' fans.
  #63  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:04 PM
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So do you say

A) Okay, Bernie is too extreme for the American public right now. But we appreciate your support and we hear you. So we’re going to do what we can to integrate your platform into our party and welcome you aboard
The evil DNC did that four years ago, ignorant shit stain.

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Democrats this weekend advanced what is easily their most liberal platform ever as representatives of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton strove toward unity during a sometimes contentious party meeting.

The document goes further left than Clinton’s position on a number of issues, with Sanders policy director Warren Gunnells saying his campaign achieved “at least 80 percent” of what it came for. “I think if you read the platform right now, you will understand that the political revolution is alive and kicking,” he said.
  #64  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:10 PM
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But the more extreme progressive agenda will not be signed into law any time soon. Even if the Ds get 50 Senate seats, and even if they have the balls to pack the Court (they won't), and even if they have the balls to eliminate filibuster (they won't), there still will not be 50 Senators who vote Yea <snip> for a wealth tax.
FDR is undoubtedly spinning in his grave, both at the truth of what you say, and at the characterization of such a tax as 'extreme' by many Democrats.
  #65  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:12 PM
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Fuck you too, you stupid piece of shit. I hope you get cancer and die a slow, horrible death, but not before witnessing the slow, horrible deaths of everyone you love. Also, anal rape by a tribe of rabid baboons should be involved in some fashion.
[Moderating]
Expressing the desire for another Doper to come to physical harm is a violation of the board's rules. Please avoid doing this in the future.

No warning issued.
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  #66  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:15 PM
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Why do you have such hate and disdain for a youth movement more involved in politics than anything we’ve seen since the 1960s? Why do you want to take a whole generation of very enthusiastic, very active young people and insult them, demoralize them, alienate them, and try to crush their enthusiasm?

Because you’re gatekeeping the Overton window in this country? Because you want the “liberal democrats” to stay a moderate right party? Because they have enthusiasm for an individual you don’t like? Because they aren’t as jaded as you are about politics, convinced that nothing that actually makes things better for people can be done?

Look at you. You’re talking about a sizable politically active movement and doing your best to brow beat them and telling them to fuck off instead of trying to integrate them into your party. How does that make the country a better place? How does that even advance your own political agenda?

This is one of the reasons the democrats always lose. Here you have your next generation of political support, far more politically active and more likely to vote than kids in previous generations, and you’d rather insult them and alienate them and tell them to go fuck themselves than to try to integrate them into your party.

The most sickening part of it is that they are better people than you are. They want to enact real systemic change to help people. You want the same oligarchical corporate boot licking we’ve had for decades as the average person gets more and more underwater. And somehow you think you have the position of moral superiority.

I can’t believe that even after 4 years of Trump, you are still doing your best to discourage people from joining your coalition and trying to beat the enthusiasm out of them. It’s insanely stupid and toxic.

Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you making it as hard as possible to be on the same side as you?
I think these are all reasonable questions/objections and maybe something you should have started the OP with. But I get having a head of steam and rolling with something while the caffein is peaking.

Let me start with this: I'm in support of virtually every policy put forward by Sanders. As a liberal, I'm much closer to the socialist left than the moderate middle of the democratic party (of which I am not a member).

But I am not the one drawing a line in the sand when it comes to which non-republican candidate I will or will not vote for. I realize, as a thinking adult, that I won't always get my way in every election. Unlike some Bernie Bros, I understand the meaning of compromise and supporting progressive causes and candidates. Because, as I hope I have clearly stated before, I am not a petulant childish twat.
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  #67  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:18 PM
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Just a pat on the back to QuickSilver who is expressing everything that makes sense perfectly.
  #68  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:21 PM
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Fuck you too, you stupid piece of shit. I hope you get cancer and die a slow, horrible death, but not before witnessing the slow, horrible deaths of everyone you love. Also, anal rape by a tribe of rabid baboons should be involved in some fashion.

That having been dealt with...I agree that Beef’s name-calling wasn’t constructive and should have been omitted.

To your credit, you actually seem to have been responding to whatever beef Beef was having with Ear in some other thread. But half a dozen people just jumped into the thread to insult “Bernie Bros” in ways that didn’t address the OP at all.
Sit on a cactus and spin, you imbecilic shit-for-brains inbred. Given that you even agree with what I said, AFTER yet another of your ridiculous tirades, you should probably stop before your only two firing neurons combust.
  #69  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:31 PM
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From a pragmatic point of view I don't see the point of being so insulting to the Bernie supporters. When have you ever changed someone's mind by insulting them?

I would generalize there are two types Bernie supporters. There are those that irrationally(or maybe just with very little political calculus) decide they will only vote for Bernie. These people cannot(or at least likely won't) be convinced so unless you just enjoy raising your blood pressure and exercising your fingers I don't see the point of insulting them. The other group is probably more reasonable supporters who are planning to vote for the nominee regardless. If you jump on this second group and start calling them 'Bernie Bros' and telling them they're cult members you might just move them into the former group.

If you're supporting liberal ideals it is irrational to stay home or vote for Trump. But people do irrational things when they're angry. I don't see how insulting 'Bernie Bros' and making them angry will lead them to making a more rational decision.

I get that plenty of them will be idiotic and obstinate. But some may have their minds changed. Not necessarily to not primary for Bernie but to vote for whomever wins the nomination. So with the small amount of influence each of us have you might as well as try to get something positive out of it. Even if the chance is small.

I say this as a Bernie supporter who absolutely will vote for whomever wins the nomination. Considering many things I'm actually not sure if I'll primary for Bernie yet.
  #70  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:33 PM
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Some Bernie supporters suck. Some supporters of every candidate suck. Assuming that the worst supporters somehow represent the candidate more than the great and positive supporters helps Trump.

So, you know, stop that. Most Bernie supporters are just fine. So are most supporters of the other Democratic candidates. Focusing on the bad Bernie supporters, or the bad supporters of any of the other Democratic candidates, just helps Trump.
  #71  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:35 PM
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So... who is going around insulting all Bernie supporters? I don't see it. In this thread it's Bernie supporters insulting everyone else and then those other people insulting specific Bernie supporters for things other than their support for Bernie.
  #72  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mind's Eye, Watering View Post
It seems to me that it's ONLY the Sanders fans that are the ones saying that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, then they will stay home and not vote, no?

I would never attack or denigrate anyone for supporting Sanders or any other candidate. But anyone that flounces off and refuses to vote because their preferred candidate wasn't selected is a child and deserves all the scorn they get.
I've known supporters of other candidates who have said they won't vote for Bernie in the general. Some have even said they'd rather Trump.

Bad supporters are not unique to any candidate. Focusing on the bad supporters of ANY Democratic candidate helps Trump.

EDIT: I support Bernie, by the way, and I will definitely be voting for whomever the Democratic party nominates.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-05-2020 at 12:38 PM.
  #73  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:40 PM
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Sanders supporters are xenophobic? Homophobic? Worship the rich? Believe a pathological liar? Support a guy who was insincere at every step in his life?
While I won't discount the potential for them to be out there, none of the "If my guy doesn't win, I can't promise I'll vote for your guy..." people I've seen are supporters of anyone but Sanders. All the non-Sanders supporters I talk to are firmly in the "Vote Blue No Matter Who!" camp. It's only the Sanders people (to be clear, not all of them) who like to play coy and imply that, if it's not Sanders, they're not going to vote or will vote for some 3rd party, etc.

So, hey, if they want to imply that they're cool with the xenophobic, homophobic, nationalist liar getting a second term out of spite, what am I supposed to take from that?
  #74  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:44 PM
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Without a doubt, some Bernie supporters are Bernie or bust (look at this example, for instance - "We'll end the Democratic Party") - but there is also some Cold War MAD psychology going on. If Bernie supporters want to have real leverage, they have to threaten to sit out the election, or even vote Trump, should Bernie not be the nominee. That threat is what gives them clout. Even if deep down they'd vote for the Democrat no matter who he or she may be, they still need to threaten not to do so, outwardly, just like how NATO and the Warsaw Pact had to promise a nuke response even if they deep down didn't actually want to do so.
  #75  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:48 PM
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Just a pat on the back to QuickSilver who is expressing everything that makes sense perfectly.
A smart poster would log off for the day, having received that kind of attaboy.

A smart poster would.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 02-05-2020 at 12:49 PM.
  #76  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:00 PM
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I've known supporters of other candidates who have said they won't vote for Bernie in the general. Some have even said they'd rather Trump.
Show me and I will happily submit them to the type of ridicule they so richly deserve.

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Bad supporters are not unique to any candidate. Focusing on the bad supporters of ANY Democratic candidate helps Trump.
Ignoring the bad Trump supporters by mainstream conservatives and republicans gave us Trump. Lack of support for HRC by Bernie or Bust voters gave us Trump. Apathy by Democrats and Independents gave us Trump. Hell, it may well give us another 4 years of Trump. Coddling the petulant Bernie Bros if Bernie is not the nominee will not save our asses from 4 more years of Trump.

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EDIT: I support Bernie, by the way, and I will definitely be voting for whomever the Democratic party nominates.
Preach it, sister.
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  #77  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:04 PM
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Without a doubt, some Bernie supporters are Bernie or bust (look at this example, for instance - "We'll end the Democratic Party") - but there is also some Cold War MAD psychology going on.
The OP is based on the premise that Trump won last time because of pouty Bernie Bros and, if we don't treat them with kid gloves this time, it'll happen again. If those supporters are cool with the xeno/homophobic nationalist getting a second term out of spite, that says a lot more about what sort of people support Sanders than it says about the people "sneering" at them and hurting their feelings.

Last edited by Jophiel; 02-05-2020 at 01:06 PM.
  #78  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:06 PM
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Coddling the petulant Bernie Bros and making Bernie the nominee might guarantee our asses four more years of Trump. I'm still waiting for someone to explain, how is Bernie attractive to a swing voter that is leaning towards Trump?

CMC fnord!

Last edited by crowmanyclouds; 02-05-2020 at 01:11 PM.
  #79  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:13 PM
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Bad supporters are not unique to any candidate.
Maybe. But they don't seem to be equally distributed either.
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Old 02-05-2020, 01:40 PM
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If the DNC succeed in cheating Bernie of the nomination...
Ya know, if the DNC stuffs the ballot boxes or hacks the software or something for Buttigieg or Biden or Bloomberg, I would certainly understand the anger. That would be profoundly corrupt, and we'd be stuck with two morally repulsive parties. America's descent into banana-republic-hood would be complete.

IF.

But for fuck's sake, what if Bernie just, you know...loses the election? What if someone else gets more votes? Some of the truly fucked-up Bernie Bros (and Bernie Gals, or whatever they're called) don't seem to be capable of even conceiving of such a possibility! If Bernie loses, the evil Corporatist Mainstream Democrats must have stolen the election!
  #81  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:48 PM
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I have my own beef with Bernie Bros. They had plenty to say about any other candidtates last time, they had some kind of "ideological purity test" thing stuck in their heads, and when their boy didn't get the nod, they
  • stayed home
    threw their vote away on some third party loser
    actually voted for Trump, in spite.

So then. Are we gonna have a replay this time???? Vote blue, no matter who. If Bernie gets nominated, we Dems that don't have our heads up our asses, will vote for him - to defeat Trump. If not, you better support whichever Dem it is. You "bros" better do it THIS TIME.
  #82  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:49 PM
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It seems to me that it's ONLY the Sanders fans that are the ones saying that if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, then they will stay home and not vote, no?

I would never attack or denigrate anyone for supporting Sanders or any other candidate. But anyone that flounces off and refuses to vote because their preferred candidate wasn't selected is a child and deserves all the scorn they get.
Damn right.
  #83  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:50 PM
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Like I was just saying .....
  #84  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:55 PM
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Substantiate this.

Sanders supporters are xenophobic? Homophobic? Worship the rich? Believe a pathological liar? Support a guy who was insincere at every step in his life?

This is fucking stupid and makes no sense at all.
I sorta like Bernie. But the rabid fanatical "if I don't get my way I will let Trump win" bros?? I think they're a bunch of ASSHOLES.

Don't blame us, we voted for Clinton (not Trump) last time. We didn't toss votes away on 3rd party shills, fakes and losers for spite. So SHOVE IT.
  #85  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:59 PM
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Coddling the petulant Bernie Bros and making Bernie the nominee might guarantee our asses four more years of Trump. I'm still waiting for someone to explain, how is Bernie attractive to a swing voter that is leaning towards Trump?

CMC fnord!
How is Buttigieg attractive to anyone ? He's a corporate Twitter page with a skinsuit ; guaranteed to FIGHT for your RIGHT to... the absolute statu quo under a thin veneer of scratch-off woke. Possibly even extended kleptocracy handout - at least that's what we got with Macron ; and Pete is more or less gay Macron. He won't energize anybody to get out and vote.

Meanwhile Bernie is lit with Latinos and most importantly the gen X/millenial demo who just can't fucking deal with the Boomer statu quo any more. They're the ones you need to get out to vote, and if they can vote for "not rabid capitalism" they will

There is not a single voter out there who might swing Trump, or might swing Dem, it's down to arguments and the free marketplace of ideas. Trump has no arguments. Also is a criminal, and probably clinically insane. Everyone knows this, even his supporters. The person who votes for him does not do it for rational reasons and you won't reach them with rational discourse. They're lost down various rabbit holes, be they Fox Newsy, Sieg Heily or corrupt billionairy.
What you need is to convince the people who *don't* vote. And for those guys, Mayor Pete really ain't gonna be working. Hell, Bernie might even grab some of the Sieg Heily because some of those guys fell down that particular rabbit hole because capitalism fucked them and somebody told them it was the Jews instead.

Last edited by Kobal2; 02-05-2020 at 02:03 PM.
  #86  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:09 PM
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How is Buttigieg attractive to anyone ?.
He’s clean and articulate. Just like Obama.

He’s also a good for for people on the left who desperately want to beat Trump and don’t mind a President nudging us in the right direction with dignity and competence. Not everyone thinks the country needs a major change. (Other than away from the Republicans).
  #87  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:16 PM
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He’s clean and articulate. Just like Obama.
The problem with that reasoning is that the statu quo ante-Trump directly led to Trump, tautologically. Why do you think that's a good strategy to unTrump ?
  #88  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:21 PM
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This is the diametral opposite of apathy. It's having strong convictions and refusing to compromise on them. It may not make sense in a purely political calculus sense, but that's kind of the point : "fuck political calculus, do what's right or I'll see you in hell". You can call that many things but "apathy" ain't it, chief.
But the fact* is that what’s right is to allow the political calculus to guide one’s vote to the Democratic nominee. And there are no exceptions to this. Every voter with the franchise is morally obligated to vote for the Democratic nominee. Even the America-hating fuckstick is morally obligated to vote for the Democratic nominee. The foreknowledge that millions of voters will not vote for the Democratic nominee does not negate the fact that the moral obligation is there. It merely demonstrates that millions of voters will be voluntarily turning their backs on their moral obligation.


* And yes, it is a fact, not merely an opinion.
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Old 02-05-2020, 02:23 PM
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The whole "Sanders is the only one who can inspire people to vote!" thing seems to get hung up on "Well, shouldn't he be walking away with the primary then?" I mean, no reason to make the cute veiled threats about how Trump will win if we don't keep feeding Bernie Bros cookies if Sanders is so incredibly inspirational.
  #90  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:26 PM
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The problem with that reasoning is that the statu quo ante-Trump directly led to Trump, tautologically. Why do you think that's a good strategy to unTrump ?
In today's America, a young married gay man who is relatively new to politics, is much farther from status quo than an old jewish man who has spent much of his life in congress.

p.s.: Socialists are far more scary to Americans than gays.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 02-05-2020 at 02:27 PM.
  #91  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:28 PM
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For all non-deplorable Americans:

ANY RESPONSIBLE ADULT 2020

or

NO MATTER WHO, VOTE BLUE.
  #92  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:34 PM
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Show me and I will happily submit them to the type of ridicule they so richly deserve.
What would be the point? Surely you'd agree that, if I spent enough time searching, I could find probably anything, including someone who supported McCain and Palin but now only supports Pete Buttigieg and otherwise will vote for Trump, on Twitter? What would be the point of finding random strangers for you to ridicule?

I hold that ridiculing Democratic-candidate supporters en masse does no one any good (but maybe Trump).

Quote:
Ignoring the bad Trump supporters by mainstream conservatives and republicans gave us Trump. Lack of support for HRC by Bernie or Bust voters gave us Trump. Apathy by Democrats and Independents gave us Trump. Hell, it may well give us another 4 years of Trump. Coddling the petulant Bernie Bros if Bernie is not the nominee will not save our asses from 4 more years of Trump.
It's not about coddling, it's about focusing on hurting Trump. Coddling "petulant Bernie Bros" doesn't help anyone... but neither does ridiculing them, especially when done in a way that could be interpreted as an attack on all Bernie supporters.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with pointing to specific people and posters and saying "that's a terrible and harmful sentiment, screw you". I just very strongly caution you and others to make it very, very clear who you're referring to -- this specific person, rather than some nebulous category like "Bernie Bros" (of which I'm not sure if I qualify -- I'm a male Bernie supporter... am I a Bernie Bro?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Maybe. But they don't seem to be equally distributed either.
This is possible, but so what? They also might be getting disproportionate attention. I don't know. But if Bernie has X million great supporters, plus a few thousand very vocal assholes, what does it matter if some other candidate has an even smaller ratio of assholes supporting them?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-05-2020 at 02:36 PM.
  #93  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:41 PM
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Now, to address another issue, I don't think that Bernie is The One and Only Messiah or anything like that. I like Elizabeth Warren. I think she's got a lot of good ideas, is well-intentioned, and would probably make a good president. If it turns out that she organically appears to garner the most support in the nomination, I have no problem with voting for her. I don't have a cult-like devotion to Bernie. He's certainly not perfect.

So why would I prefer Bernie?

I voted for Obama twice, gladly, and think that he was a good man and a pretty good president given the situation he was facing. But when he got in power, he thought that if he became part of the system, and didn't rock the boat too much, he would be more successful.
So I guess we're ignoring Moscow Mitch's blatant obstruction now?


Quote:
Warren will do some good on that front. Bernie will knock it out of the park.
Bernie did ONE fuckin' march fifty years ago, got his little merit badge, then whiteflighted his ass to Vermont and named a couple of post offices. And ever since he's acted like black people owe him.

What HAS he done that has benefited the US, except legitimized the sexism used by Trump? After all, after Saint Bernie accused Hillary of cheating, well, he wouldn't have done that unless she was really evil, now would he?

As for all the burbling about "pure principle" he's made a virtue out of sitting on his ass. Literally. In thirty years, he's done squat, but he claims it's because CORPORATE! and CENTRISTS! somethingsomethingmutter are conspiring against him. After all, better be pure and do squat than be evil and get shit done.

Pure principle, eh? That explains why Mr. Purity backed an anti-choicer, because who gives a shit about women, right? It's so odd how Bernie's fans talk about his purity when he spends more time sucking up to Bros, assholes like Joe Rogan, and Trumpies, than.....actual Dems.
  #94  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:42 PM
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There are so many people in this thread acting like dickwads.
  #95  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
But the fact* is that what’s right is to allow the political calculus to guide one’s vote to the Democratic nominee. And there are no exceptions to this. Every voter with the franchise is morally obligated to vote for the Democratic nominee. Even the America-hating fuckstick is morally obligated to vote for the Democratic nominee. The foreknowledge that millions of voters will not vote for the Democratic nominee does not negate the fact that the moral obligation is there. It merely demonstrates that millions of voters will be voluntarily turning their backs on their moral obligation.


* And yes, it is a fact, not merely an opinion.
I dunno about no moral obligation to vote for people who have been fucking you and/or dismissing you for 20+ years. I can dig the anger and spite, or just the profound disillusion, disappointment and hopelessness of it all. Trump might be more callous and open about it, but he didn't start the cages ; or the wage freeze ; or the anti-unionism ; or the racism ; or the gaping abyss of wealth disparity...

I mean, if I were American (god preserve me. And y'all, possibly) I think I'd likely break my lifelong not_voting principle if only to unTrump regardless of whichever useless waste of air the Dems could put forward. Shit, I'd vote for a lump of (unclean) coal. But I wouldn't blame those who'd rather eat their metaphorical gun than doing either.
  #96  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
Bernie did ONE fuckin' march fifty years ago, got his little merit badge, then whiteflighted his ass to Vermont and named a couple of post offices. And ever since he's acted like black people owe him.

What HAS he done that has benefited the US, except legitimized the sexism used by Trump? After all, after Saint Bernie accused Hillary of cheating, well, he wouldn't have done that unless she was really evil, now would he?

As for all the burbling about "pure principle" he's made a virtue out of sitting on his ass. Literally. In thirty years, he's done squat, but he claims it's because CORPORATE! and CENTRISTS! somethingsomethingmutter are conspiring against him. After all, better be pure and do squat than be evil and get shit done.

Pure principle, eh? That explains why Mr. Purity backed an anti-choicer, because who gives a shit about women, right? It's so odd how Bernie's fans talk about his purity when he spends more time sucking up to Bros, assholes like Joe Rogan, and Trumpies, than.....actual Dems.
I like you as a poster, but I think you're way, way wrong here on the facts. Not that Bernie is some perfect saint -- he's not. He's got a big ego and he's been belligerent and wrong at times, most notably in some of his strategic campaigning choices in 2016 (allowing significant sexism among his campaign leadership and team). But where he's right has been significant -- he's been right as a legislator for many decades. He voted against the Iraq war. That was brave, and it was right. He's voted correctly on civil rights issues. He's voted correctly on gay rights issues. He's been on the right side of history on most major political disagreements over the last few decades, some of which required him to be in a small minority (like on Iraq). He's on the right side of foreign policy issues, and is the least likely of any candidate to get us into another dumb war, by his record. His rhetoric has been uncompromising, but his voting has always allowed compromise -- he supported the ACA despite his desire for M4A. Supporting a politician in Nebraska who was pro-life in 2010, but then pro-choice and pro-Planned-Parenthood from 2011 on, isn't enough to reasonably take away from all that, IMO.

Which doesn't mean you have to support Bernie, of course. But I don't think you're accurately and completely characterizing his history here.
  #97  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:54 PM
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Do you think telling them "aw, your messiah lost, you little piece of shit. I know you got your hopes up that someone different could get in there, but now it's time to grow up and take your medicine and vote for a real shit sandwich. It was cute when you thought you had a choice or when you thought you could vote for someone you liked, but now it's time for your dumb little bernie bro self to do what we tell you" is something that makes them more or less likely to vote for the democratic candidate? Because there were dozens of people like that in 2016 that I encountered, basically daring me not to vote for Hillary.
Shit sandwich? To whom are you referring? If it's Hillary, stop whining when people call you sexist. If it's Trump, you are Trump, whining that Ukraine wouldn't do what you wanted.

You're a guy. You are a white guy, presumably. In 2016, you guys fucked over women, immigrants, Muslims, and whomever---and everybody else----because you didn't have one fucking right on the goddamned table. And now you whine that you got fucked over?

Did you get rape threats? Got swastikas painted on your home? Found nooses hung at work? Get stopped at the border because you had brown skin? Get deported even though you served in the military? Get denied birth control or an abortion? Watched your family get slaughtered because they were Kurdish?

You didn't get your fuckin' pony. Poor dear. I have friends in Ukraine I suddenly can't get on the phone. You risked nothing but you threw away other peoples' rights because you thought you guys had us over a barrel.

That's exactly what Trump did to Zelensky. And you act like you're being victimized.
  #98  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:07 PM
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I just think he's too old. Age-induced mental degradation shouldn't be a probable endgame of a presidency.
  #99  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I like you as a poster, but I think you're way, way wrong here on the facts. Not that Bernie is some perfect saint -- he's not. He's got a big ego and he's been belligerent and wrong at times, most notably in some of his strategic campaigning choices in 2016 (allowing significant sexism among his campaign leadership and team). But where he's right has been significant -- he's been right as a legislator for many decades. He voted against the Iraq war. That was brave, and it was right. He's voted correctly on civil rights issues. He's voted correctly on gay rights issues. He's been on the right side of history on most major political disagreements over the last few decades, some of which required him to be in a small minority (like on Iraq). He's on the right side of foreign policy issues, and is the least likely of any candidate to get us into another dumb war, by his record. His rhetoric has been uncompromising, but his voting has always allowed compromise -- he supported the ACA despite his desire for M4A. Supporting a politician in Nebraska who was pro-life in 2010, but then pro-choice and pro-Planned-Parenthood from 2011 on, isn't enough to reasonably take away from all that, IMO.

Which doesn't mean you have to support Bernie, of course. But I don't think you're accurately and completely characterizing his history here.
I like you, too, but this is stuff that Bernie says, or claims, not the actual facts. He didn't vote for the Iraq war technically, but he voted for the AUMF, for war in the Balkans, war planes, war funding, war actions, and had anti-war protesters thrown out of his office and arrested. And voting for an anti-choicer is the equivalent of saying, "So he burned a cross or two, ladies." Or whatever the equivalent is. That was in 2017, BTW, I think you have a typo. He won't "compromise" on this, that, or the other, but he will endorse somebody who wants to take womens' rights away, because "we can't reject people who disagree on just one issue." One issue, he says.

There's too many incidents where he's said things that wouldn't be excused if he were just Joe Blow. Then he apologizes. "You have to do more than say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me,' " from a guy who's been saying that or the equivalent for thirty years isn't a slip of the tongue. He and his loyalists have been really explicit that they think that's all women vote for----and offer as candidates.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
  #100  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
I just think he's too old. Age-induced mental degradation shouldn't be a probable endgame of a presidency.
Probable beats demonstrable tho
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