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  #201  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:32 PM
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People keep saying Sanders will have to work with McConnell. For now, I prefer to believe Sanders will be working with McSally.

I think you mean McGrath. McSally is the dumb fighter pilot jock who is going to lose in Arizona to an astronaut.

Last edited by Ravenman; 02-06-2020 at 01:32 PM.
  #202  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:49 PM
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I'm sorry did you... did you just tell a French person to not be snooty and patronizing towards foreigners ? What fresh nonsense will you expect of me next, strict monogamy ?!
The French will forever get a pass from me for their cuisine. The world should be forever grateful to you.
  #203  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:02 PM
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I think you mean McGrath. McSally is the dumb fighter pilot jock who is going to lose in Arizona to an astronaut.
Dammit!
  #204  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:04 PM
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I have to wonder what you “work with McConnel” sorts have been watching for the last 15 years.

There is no working with republicans. They have declared democrats the enemy of the American way. They slapped Obama’s outstretched hand dozens of times. We are no longer in a period of time where the political parties regard each other in good faith as people who disagree but both want what’s best, so let’s find compromise. They are utterly radicalized. This is a holy war for them. Their only objective is to stop anything the democrats want to do, and use anything within their own power, legal or otherwise, to ensure their own power.

There are a lot of democrats who seem to think that evythuhg is going to go back to how it was 30 or 40 years ago for no reason. It’s a completely naive belief. No democrat - not Sanders, not Biden - is going to be working with McConnel to achieve bipartisan agendas. If the democrats can’t win both houses, they won’t get anything done.

The republicans have been shifting the Overton window massively right for a long time now, and now we’re in the coup phase of their radicalization. They are above the law. The impeachment trial sham codifies that. Do you think the impeachment is going to slow them down and make them move cautiously? No, of course not - they found that they could completely destroy our traditional system of rule of law and checks and balances and it worked. This will only accelerate the coup we find ourselves in.

The traditional democrats like Schumer and Pelosi seem like they believe what’s happening now is within the norms of American politics, whereas this is absolutely unprecedented. The republicans are running away with power. On the state level, they’re rigging things to give themselves permanent power in a lot of states. At the national level they’ve stacked the courts, gerrymandered, and effectively declared themselves above the law. They have deliberately weakened election security as to invite interference in our elections. We are in a coup. And since almost all of our media is owned by 6 corporations who control the faction that’s winning, no one will talk about it.

So do we need a Democrat who is going to pretend everything is okay, and work within the system, and reach across the aisle? No, that’s exactly what the republicans want - democrats to pretend everything is okay, everything is normal, and feebly appeal to the good nature of the Republicans while they take over our government.

Bernie isn’t going to be able to lead bipartisan legislation because no one is. We’re well past the point where that’s even in in the realm of possibility. What we need is someone to use the bully pulpit to scream from the rooftops that were in a coup, that the rich are solidifying their power over us, and soon we’re not even going to be a managed democracy, but a false one.

I have no idea how so many of you are blind to this. As far as I can tell, everyone is convincing themselves things are okay and normal because they simply think “that can’t happen here” and willfully fail to recognize the obvious coup under our noses.

It may already be too late to do anything about it. But the only chance we have is for someone in power to scream about this to the American people. Someone who won’t become corrupt or convinced to play ball and settle down upon taking the presidency. That’s not Biden. That’s probably not Buttigieg. That’s Bernie.
  #205  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:42 PM
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So Medicare for All comes from... an executive order?
  #206  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:49 PM
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So Medicare for All comes from... an executive order?
Journey of a thousand miles, man.

The chance that Sanders would get Medicare for All passed with Senate Leader McConnell is, and I checked the math, exactly down to six millionths of a percent the same as the chance that Biden would get minor efficiency tweaks to Obamacare passed with Senate Leader McConnell.

Sanders could do some stuff through executive order, but of course McConnell is gonna stand in the way as long as he's got any power to do so. McConnell has broken every tradition, every norm, every principle of basic decency in order to mac-truck through a hard-right agenda.

Our choice in 2021 isn't whether we get a work-across-the-aisle spirit of bipartisanship up and working, with a Democratic President and a Republican senate. Our choice is whether we elect someone who's going to answer gunfire with shots of his own, or with a handshake and a creepy shoulder-rub.

I will, of course, vote for Biden if that's what it comes to. But I'm not at all convinced he's gonna get things accomplished with McConnell. I think he might just try to give that scorpion a ride across the river.
  #207  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:51 PM
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Which candidate gets Medicaid for all through a republican congress?

The two other leading candidates don’t even want it. Buttigieg seems to have a half as commitment to a compromise which gets in the way of a lot of the benefits of having a single payer system.
  #208  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:51 PM
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So Medicare for All comes from... an executive order?
Emperor Bernie, 'cause King Donald would be the destruction of democracy as we knew it.

CMC fnord!
  #209  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:01 PM
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Emperor Bernie, 'cause King Donald would be the destruction of democracy as we knew it.

CMC fnord!
I'm not saying that Bernie should go about it this way. I'm a 'Shoot for the stars, land on the moon' type guy. But there is a little difference. Trump does things like this to do horrific stuff. Whereas most people want M4A.

Not saying it's justified.

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  #210  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:11 PM
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If Bernie isn't going to get any significant legislating done, I think pretty much all the other candidates would serve as better caretaker "at least I'm not Trump" presidents.
  #211  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:16 PM
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While I am posting here, I'll second the "vote your conscience" sentiment. The Dems should Not become the party of Fall In Line. They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO.

Sure, we would all love them to "win that way". The problem is that that choice may not be on the menu. It may be a choice between "compromise purity in order to win" or "lose that way".


If Romney, McCaine or Dole was the opponent I might say sure go ahead and try, but not this time.

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  #212  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:22 PM
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If Bernie isn't going to get any significant legislating done, I think pretty much all the other candidates would serve as better caretaker "at least I'm not Trump" presidents.
On the contrary, if nothing can happen because one side is operating way outside the norm and controlling the Overton window, getting a guy who will call it like it is and get us moving back in the right direction instead of trying not to rock the boat and just keep us going in the wrong direction but slowing it down a bit is the right direction.

Biden and probably Buttigieg we people who will gently steer the ship in the direction the Republicans want it to go, by failing to enact their own agenda and only slowing down theirs a bit.

We’re losing the entire district because of timid third way democratic bullshit caretaking and not wanting to rock the boat. Without a serious change in the attitude of the American public, radicalized republicans keep taking over while democrats gently keep “caretaking”

Establishment democrats want to lose our country slower than the republicans want to drive it off the cliff. That’s not good enough. We’re too far gone.

We need a wake up call. Not someone who doesn’t rock the boat.
  #213  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:29 PM
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Wondering how much money of mine would become McGrath's if I lived in Kentucky. Hate to say that it would probably all go to waste anyway in a red state.
  #214  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:32 PM
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We need a wake up call. Not someone who doesn’t rock the boat.
Why do you suppose some people don't like Bernie? Is it because we are bad people/Quislings/corporate shills?
  #215  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:39 PM
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Why do you suppose some people don't like Bernie? Is it because we are bad people/Quislings/corporate shills?
Are you asking me why some people don't like Bernie, or why some people don't want to rock the boat? Those are two separate questions albeit with some overlap.
  #216  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:39 PM
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Bernie can bring out many who NEVER vote, and possibly take back the Senate to implement some of his policies. The many thousands of young people who come to his rallies probably won't sit on their ass, and will instead phone-bank, canvass, spread the enthusiasm any way they can... Most people don't vote in our elections, and when people feel they are being cheated, they become cynical and stop participating.

I would have voted for Corbyn if I lived in the UK, but some people are so desperate they'll try ANYTHING, and not just who they vote for.
  #217  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:42 PM
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No, but seriously, do you think there's ONE voter out there whose thought process will be "Anything to get this country right... anything but a Jew" ? OK, I mean, this America. You guys are collectively the Michelangelos of brain death. So there probably is one out there. But I'm still tentatively hopeful that the people who think like that ? They already vote Trump, and furthermore they wouldn't vote D if their entire life depended on it. Which, realistically speaking, it does.
I don't mean to harp on the subject but I just watched a video posted on reddit of an older white woman at the Iowa caucus demanding her ballot back from a Buttegieg representative because she just now learned that Buttegieg is gay and that her entire support for him was, in her words, "Down the toilet".

This is what we're dealing with in some cases, and I refuse to withhold criticism from her and bigoted assholes like her just because they are ostensibly on "our" side.
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  #218  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:04 PM
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Are you asking me why some people don't like Bernie, or why some people don't want to rock the boat? Those are two separate questions albeit with some overlap.
I dunno, maybe both.
  #219  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:19 PM
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I don't mean to harp on the subject but I just watched a video posted on reddit of an older white woman at the Iowa caucus demanding her ballot back from a Buttegieg representative because she just now learned that Buttegieg is gay and that her entire support for him was, in her words, "Down the toilet".

This is what we're dealing with in some cases, and I refuse to withhold criticism from her and bigoted assholes like her just because they are ostensibly on "our" side.
Oh yes. We're absolutely on the same page here. The answer to the problem isn't to humour these trogs and it's certainly not to only put forward the most unchallenging, milquetoasty, bland candidates that won't ever lead some petty little minds to do petty little things "because we can't afford to lose a single vote !!! not this year !" (it's always a crisis this year, black emancipation will have to wait, right MLK ? Next time, for sure). For one thing fuck these people, for another that's a betrayal of all women/jews/gays/etc in the group. If they just can't deal with Living In A Society they can vote for the Lions Eating Peoples' Faces Party or lead it to power instead, which is its own richly deserved, self-inflicted punishment.

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  #220  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:28 PM
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But then that's also true of any and all political calculations of the "oooh, I like X's ideas but I'm afraid if they're our candidate it might not play well in District 9 so I support Y who's more electable" variety. Fuck that nonsense - you don't know, and you shouldn't *care*. Democracy doesn't run on beating the other guy, and it certainly doesn't run on your amateur hour game theorizing how the next guy over grasps the prisoner's dilemma. It runs on setting up a body politic that'd be a representative microcosm of the larger whole, as accurately as possible. If *you* don't vote for the ideas you think are correct and best, who the hell will, and why would you expect them to be discussed at all ?

(note du traducteur : in this post the author implicitly deems single-winner representative democracy fucked on the merits. Obviously.)

Last edited by Kobal2; 02-06-2020 at 04:32 PM.
  #221  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:41 PM
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The point I seem to be making poorly, is that like some True Berniebers, there are people in the Democratic tent who would withhold their vote due to personal biases, rather than vote for the larger cause they ostensibly support. Like that gay-hating twat who would not have voted for Buttegieg when she learned he was gay. Nevermind the fact that she was for him and his policies up until the very moment that she learned he played for the other team. So sure. Republicans are worse. But mote, eye, beam...however the fuck that goes.
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  #222  
Old 02-06-2020, 05:05 PM
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Jeez, try decaf. I'm saying that Bernie's Jewish heritage will be used as a red flag to Trump's asshole fanboys.
... especially those fan bois who wear hoods or nazi armbands.
  #223  
Old 02-06-2020, 05:19 PM
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Why didn't Obama pursue his post 2012 re-election promise to overturn Citizens United?? That has got to be one of the most disingenuous questions Robert Reich has ever asked. With what fucking congressional support was Obama going to get that passed when Republican congress members had already declared him a one term president and pretty much obstructed what color suit he would be permitted to wear.

Honestly... Robert Reich can be such a wanker.
Yes Reich can be, and often is. Never mind that McConnell, and all the rest of the Party Of Fucking Russian Stooges And Traitors decided when Obama was elected, that they would fight EVERYthing no matter what.


No, I accept NO blame for Trump. I didn't vote for him. I hated him LONG before this --- I knew all about that crooked lying cowardly dog fucker from way back. I grew up in NY and lived there a long enough time to know what that orange piece of shit was.

So Reich can take his "both sides are to blame" or his "Dems are to blame" shit and choke on it.

Last edited by SteveG1; 02-06-2020 at 05:20 PM.
  #224  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:00 PM
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While I am posting here, I'll second the "vote your conscience" sentiment. The Dems should Not become the party of Fall In Line. They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO. If Bernie Bros don't want to play ball, they can exercise their American freedom as they see fit. If some want to call them fuck-os for that, that is also their right.
I'm all for voting your conscience, but if your conscience doesn't factor in what'll happen if the other guy you're not voting for wins, then your conscience has a blind spot the size of the republican party.

It's not that I think that you should all fall in line and start cheering in support for whichever generic whitebread dem stumbles into the nomination. I'm just saying that even if you're not cheering, you can boo - and booing by voting for some doomed third party candidate is exactly the same as not booing.
  #225  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:11 PM
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While I am posting here, I'll second the "vote your conscience" sentiment. The Dems should Not become the party of Fall In Line. They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO. If Bernie Bros don't want to play ball, they can exercise their American freedom as they see fit. If some want to call them fuck-os for that, that is also their right.
Too often, "vote your conscience" means "treat voting like a magical ritual by which you confer your sacred blessing on a champion, and then feel pleased that you've done all you can to protect the kingdom." It's a fairy-tale approach.

"Voting your conscience" should mean "consider carefully what impact you can have on the world by voting, and cast your vote such as to have the maximum positive impact." That may mean voting for a real turd, because voting for the turd means that the flaming shitmonster doesn't gain office.

Absolutely your conscience should guide you. But if your conscience is unconcerned with the real-world effects of your actions, I think your conscience is a self-involved nitwit.
  #226  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:45 PM
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Too often, "vote your conscience" means "treat voting like a magical ritual by which you confer your sacred blessing on a champion, and then feel pleased that you've done all you can to protect the kingdom." It's a fairy-tale approach.

"Voting your conscience" should mean "consider carefully what impact you can have on the world by voting, and cast your vote such as to have the maximum positive impact." That may mean voting for a real turd, because voting for the turd means that the flaming shitmonster doesn't gain office.

Absolutely your conscience should guide you. But if your conscience is unconcerned with the real-world effects of your actions, I think your conscience is a self-involved nitwit.
Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...
  #227  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:59 PM
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Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...
Holy shit. I've tried over and over and over again to express this idea, and Solnit comes along and says it perfectly in 8 words. Thank you!
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:14 PM
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In fairness to Bernie and in contrast to my derision towards the toxic Bernie Bros, I have to say that he did very well at the town hall in NH just now. I've always agreed with his policies, even those that seem unrealistic in today's America. I continue to appreciate his contribution to the national conversation about progressive issues. America would do well to have him as POTUS.
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  #229  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:31 PM
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Bernie can bring out many who NEVER vote, and possibly take back the Senate to implement some of his policies.
But for every one of those people there is at least one person who really doesn't like Trump but decides that despite all of the flaws of the Trump administration at least its better than living in Venezuela. Now this is a lie, and Bernie can counter it by saying that while he is indeed a socialist, he's a Democratic socialist, which really isn't the same thing, and differs in its philosophy by ... (yawn). Meanwhile Trump will be running ads showing starving people handing over fat stacks of bills to buy a single roll of toilet paper.

Another thought about the Bernie's liabilities. Its an established fact that Putin's trolls also engaged in a campaign to promote him in the primary against Clinton. Should Sanders become the nominee, I can imagine that Guiliani's anti-corruption investigation with the help of the Zelenski government will manage to uncover a complete verifiable detailed accounting of exactly how this was done names, dates everything. An account so detailed that one might even think it was leaked by the mastermind himself. There is of course no mention of any activities related to Trump given that he was exonerated. But this new evidence will forcing the Justice department under a very reluctant Barr to launch an immediate investigation into Sanders and his campaign for the good of the nation.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:06 PM
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Which candidate gets Medicaid for all through a republican congress?

The two other leading candidates don’t even want it. Buttigieg seems to have a half as commitment to a compromise which gets in the way of a lot of the benefits of having a single payer system.
Obama wanted a public option, which is about as close to M4A as we've come. He didn't have the votes. He could have insisted and screamed about wanting a public option, but again...he didn't have the votes. So we got Obamacare instead, and while it's not perfect, it's had for more positive impact on the lives of millions of people than screaming about - and not getting - a public option would have had.

Ironically, that achievement is also what cost him and his party control of congress. And the real reason that a lot of Bernie-crats don't acknowledge - but I recall clearly - is that a lot of the people who supported Obama two years earlier couldn't be fucked to get off their asses and vote in 2010. And then had the audacity to argue that he was a disappointment.

I think Bernie Sanders supporters will at some point be confronted with reality, and the reality is that their ideas aren't nearly as popular as they think. And the megaphone in their pulpit isn't nearly as loud as they imagine it to be.
  #231  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:29 PM
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Bernie can bring out many who NEVER vote, and possibly take back the Senate to implement some of his policies.
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But for every one of those people there is at least one person who really doesn't like Trump but decides that despite all of the flaws of the Trump administration at least its better than living in Venezuela.
Both of y'all: cite?

This sort of imaginative pontificating is fine for cable news where glib arrogance subs in for knowledge. But this is the pit, motherfuckers, and we expect better.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:10 PM
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Both of y'all: cite?

This sort of imaginative pontificating is fine for cable news where glib arrogance subs in for knowledge. But this is the pit, motherfuckers, and we expect better.
What exactly do you want citations for? They're making predictions based on pretty common knowledge. And, of course, they can't be expected to provide a citation for something that hasn't happened yet.

I can try to elaborate on the logic. People voting Trump or staying home instead of voting for a socialist is pretty straightforward--there still is a stigma on the word "socialist" in the United States. And it is not really amendable to facts about what "socialism" means to Bernie Sanders. It's pure emotionalism, which is where Trump excels in his ads. Putting this together, it seems inevitable that Bernie's self-proclaimed "socialist" moniker would be a liability--i.e. people who would vote against Trump will not vote for a socialist.

The logic about people who otherwise never vote is also pretty simple. It's a combination of looking at which candidate has gotten the young people enthusiastic, combined with knowing they are the group least likely to vote. As such, getting them excited is a way to get them to vote.

Granted, Bernie's not the only one with some youth support, but he seems to be the one with the best chance of actually winning the nomination.

These two statements are the fundamental dichotomy of Sanders' electability. The pro side is that he gets (young) people excited, which tends to get out the vote, but the con side is that he declared himself to be a socialist, which has a lot of baggage in the US. In the general election, which effect would be stronger?

I genuinely don't know.
  #233  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:14 PM
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POTUS isn't the only thing on the line this year.
Something many people lose sight of.

Quote:
They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO.
"You can't beat something (even if it's bullshit) with nothing." Or as I posted around here in the past, someone Playing Not To Lose is at a disadvantage against someone Playing To Win (and so is also someone Playing to Prove a Point).

That said, however, I do not see this as fundamentally incompatible with the notion of my conscience leading to a strategic vote at the end of the day if the remaining choices don't perfectly match my ideas. But I am not going to ask the others to surrender preemptively and not even try.

So yes, if I want to WIN or at least get enough seats in the legislature to get stuff done, I need to give people a motivation to get off their asses and vote FOR me. I should want the people on the fence about even showing up, to show up for me, not to remain comfortably on that fence, and we already have experience that "But, OMG, Trump!!!" was not enough. Relying on that now that we have fully experienced his clusterfuckery, the people will recoil in horror... is stupendously overestimating human nature

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  #234  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:33 PM
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Bernie can bring out many who NEVER vote, and possibly take back the Senate to implement some of his policies.
Even of Bernie wins and the Dems take the Senate, he still won't implement any of his policies. He won't get every Dem to support his policies. Many of them come from conservative states. And I can't see Bernie compromising. And if he does, a huge chunk of his supporters will revolt.

Personally, I'm on board with most of his goals. But to move at all towards those goals, means you need centrist Democrats on board. Won't happen with Bernie. I don't know how Bernie's followers can't see this.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
People keep saying Sanders will have to work with McConnell. For now, I prefer to believe Sanders will be working with McSally. I for one am donating to her campaign, and I am nowhere near Kentucky. POTUS isn't the only thing on the line this year.

While I am posting here, I'll second the "vote your conscience" sentiment. The Dems should Not become the party of Fall In Line. They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO. If Bernie Bros don't want to play ball, they can exercise their American freedom as they see fit. If some want to call them fuck-os for that, that is also their right.
Some people here don't seem to realize that the notion that one must support a party no matter what to defeat those people over there is the death spiral of democracy. The end game is Team A against Team B (what they stand for matters not) to the death.
How twisted it is, to behave as if Democracy should be people acting in the best interests of the ruling classes instead of the other way around.
  #236  
Old 02-07-2020, 12:23 AM
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It is too bad I can't return more often to reply to everyone. This time I am practically a foil!
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Sure, we would all love them to "win that way". The problem is that that choice may not be on the menu. It may be a choice between "compromise purity in order to win" or "lose that way".


If Romney, McCaine or Dole was the opponent I might say sure go ahead and try, but not this time.
Thing is, Bernie is frankly the most pure candidate running. Personally I believe he is a fundamentally moral person. I think he has been paying attention during all those Senate intelligence briefings over the decades and had a sense of what the eff is going on in this world. I think a socialist is the perfect candidate to run against a fascist.

Look, the "opposition" are being molded into anti-intellectuals against their best interests. This is their vulnerability- they aren't bringing many mental weapons to this fight, just propagandistic thought-terminating one-liners. We can arm our foot soldiers with just a few tools: ad hominem, bare assertion, appeal to authority, false attribution, tu quoque. That is probably enough right there if we encourage people to lean a bit toward intellectual bullying re: the virtues of Sanders and simultaneously how totally full of shit you guys are. A trial without witnesses? Behold, the GOP standard of evidence, in every fantastical policy!

The Trump cult is kind of empty. Also, a lot of people just need encouragement and don't care how they get it. Some people are just gonna stay Trumpers, so leave 'em. But bros like Bernie has don't accrue to every Dem. If you really want the Dems to fall in line, fall in line with Bernie, and maybe slow walk the ban on fracking after the election until we have the alternative ready. Just sayin'.
  #237  
Old 02-07-2020, 12:32 AM
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Miscellania:

Quote:
Originally Posted by margin View Post
I'm trying to quote #165, but it just won't work.

That article you cited just proved my point. Lots of platitudes and drama----very much like Bernie himself----but, again, the last thing he did for POC was fifty-odd years ago. "Chained himself to black women"? If he had done so, I'm sure a little birdie would have gotten that out to his worshipful groupies by now.
I'd Google more to help you more, but you don't seem open-minded. Just for clarity: Do you claim that the "chained himself to black women" story is a Lie?

(BTW, the way I quote a quote is to use the ordinary Windows copy-paste.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
An exceptionally good, down-to-earth article, published a few days ago:

Why Democrats share the blame for the rise of Donald Trump
by Robert Reich
Robert Reich is a liberal hero. (I especially like him because he answers my e-mails. )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
The chance that Sanders would get Medicare for All passed with Senate Leader McConnell is, and I checked the math, exactly down to six millionths of a percent the same as the chance that Biden would get minor efficiency tweaks to Obamacare passed with Senate Leader McConnell.
In another thread some of us are saying that if we cannot get 50 Senators, it might be better for Trump to get re-elected. This Senate election is SO important. I hope Stacey Abrams and Oprah Winfrey decide to run. Those two women might swing 2 Senate seats right there! (Or are the deadlines passing by?)

Taking the Senate is extremely important but it's largely ignored. Without the Senate, it very well may be that Trump re-election is the best outcome in 2020, with a D landslide in 2022 as Trumpism collapses.

(* - Note that, by 2024 Trump will be an incontinent laughingstock whose underlings ignore him. In 2020 however, he's still powerful enough to cause GREAT damage out of spite if he loses in November.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And we still need a ruling on whether it complies with regulations to wish a Doper to be waterboarded.
  #238  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:07 AM
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What exactly do you want citations for? They're making predictions based on pretty common knowledge. And, of course, they can't be expected to provide a citation for something that hasn't happened yet.
They can be expected to do one of two things:
1) Provide strong evidence that supports their prediction, to distinguish it from wishful thinking/wild guess/Tarot card readings; or
2) Do what you do below.
Quote:
These two statements are the fundamental dichotomy of Sanders' electability. The pro side is that he gets (young) people excited, which tends to get out the vote, but the con side is that he declared himself to be a socialist, which has a lot of baggage in the US. In the general election, which effect would be stronger?

I genuinely don't know.
That thing where you say "I don't know"? That's the key. Nobody knows Making either prediction with anything resembling confidence strikes me as a fool's errand.
  #239  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Miscellania:


I'd Google more to help you more, but you don't seem open-minded. Just for clarity: Do you claim that the "chained himself to black women" story is a Lie?

(BTW, the way I quote a quote is to use the ordinary Windows copy-paste.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert Reich is a liberal hero. (I especially like him because he answers my e-mails. )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In another thread some of us are saying that if we cannot get 50 Senators, it might be better for Trump to get re-elected. This Senate election is SO important. I hope Stacey Abrams and Oprah Winfrey decide to run. Those two women might swing 2 Senate seats right there! (Or are the deadlines passing by?)

Taking the Senate is extremely important but it's largely ignored. Without the Senate, it very well may be that Trump re-election is the best outcome in 2020, with a D landslide in 2022 as Trumpism collapses.

(* - Note that, by 2024 Trump will be an incontinent laughingstock whose underlings ignore him. In 2020 however, he's still powerful enough to cause GREAT damage out of spite if he loses in November.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And we still need a ruling on whether it complies with regulations to wish a Doper to be waterboarded.
I don't have any confidence that Trumpism will collapse of its own accord with a GOP Senate propping it up for another two years. We need the Senate now. We need to start passing legislation that fix the election processes in this country and make it impossible for a crazed minority to ever hold this kind of power again.
  #240  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:07 AM
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I have no idea how so many of you are blind to this. As far as I can tell, everyone is convincing themselves things are okay and normal because they simply think “that can’t happen here” and willfully fail to recognize the obvious coup under our noses.
Man, I was almost going to vote for Sanders but then you were mean to me so I'll just stay home and pout if he's the nominee. Sorry dude, should have been nicer to me.
  #241  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:05 AM
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... We need the Senate now....
You don't need to convince me. Repeating myself, it appears likely there will be two red Senators from Georgia next year, but Abrams and Winfrey could team up and make both seats blue. I don't understand why opinionators are not shrieking to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I have to wonder what you “work with McConnel” sorts have been watching for the last 15 years.

There is no working with republicans. They have declared democrats the enemy of the American way. They slapped Obama’s outstretched hand dozens of times. We are no longer in a period of time where the political parties regard each other in good faith as people who disagree but both want what’s best, so let’s find compromise. They are utterly radicalized. This is a holy war for them. Their only objective is to stop anything the democrats want to do, and use anything within their own power, legal or otherwise, to ensure their own power.

There are a lot of democrats who seem to think that evythuhg is going to go back to how it was 30 or 40 years ago for no reason. It’s a completely naive belief. No democrat - not Sanders, not Biden - is going to be working with McConnel to achieve bipartisan agendas. If the democrats can’t win both houses, they won’t get anything done.

The republicans ... are above the law. The impeachment trial sham codifies that. Do you think the impeachment is going to slow them down and make them move cautiously? No, of course not - they found that they could completely destroy our traditional system of rule of law and checks and balances and it worked. This will only accelerate the coup we find ourselves in.
... The republicans are running away with power. On the state level, they’re rigging things to give themselves permanent power in a lot of states. At the national level they’ve stacked the courts, gerrymandered, and effectively declared themselves above the law. They have deliberately weakened election security as to invite interference in our elections. We are in a coup. And since almost all of our media is owned by 6 corporations who control the faction that’s winning, no one will talk about it.

So do we need a Democrat who is going to pretend everything is okay, and work within the system, and reach across the aisle? No, that’s exactly what the republicans want - democrats to pretend everything is okay, everything is normal, and feebly appeal to the good nature of the Republicans while they take over our government.

Bernie isn’t going to be able to lead bipartisan legislation because no one is. We’re well past the point where that’s even in in the realm of possibility. What we need is someone to use the bully pulpit to scream from the rooftops that were in a coup, that the rich are solidifying their power over us, and soon we’re not even going to be a managed democracy, but a false one.

I have no idea how so many of you are blind to this. As far as I can tell, everyone is convincing themselves things are okay and normal because they simply think “that can’t happen here” and willfully fail to recognize the obvious coup under our noses.

It may already be too late to do anything about it. But the only chance we have is for someone in power to scream about this to the American people. Someone who won’t become corrupt or convinced to play ball and settle down upon taking the presidency. That’s not Biden. That’s probably not Buttigieg. That’s Bernie.
I've quoted almost all of this for its truth value. People who think comparisons of the GOP with Mussolini's Fascists are far-fetched are living in ignorant fantasy.

Romney — the latest GOP standard-bearer — voted to convict. McCain would have voted so also, as would, I think Bush-43, Dole, and Bush-41. (Back in the early 2000's did any of us think we'd look back fondly on Bush-43 as a "good Republican"? )

Yet when Susan Collins — supposedly a moderate Republican — was asked whether she would align herself with America and humanity, she said Nay, she preferred to embrace a stinking turd.

... I am naturally indecisive (deficiency of some key neurotransmitter?) and American politics are confusing me more and more. When next you hear from me, I may have become ... a Bernie-Bro!!
  #242  
Old 02-07-2020, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
They can be expected to do one of two things:
1) Provide strong evidence that supports their prediction, to distinguish it from wishful thinking/wild guess/Tarot card readings; or
2) Do what you do below.

That thing where you say "I don't know"? That's the key. Nobody knows Making either prediction with anything resembling confidence strikes me as a fool's errand.
Well since directly challenged, I would say that BigT's post accurately reflects my view of the situation. It is my personal opinion that the set of voters turned off by Sanders will be larger than the set of voters turned on, but I admit that that is just my opinion as gathered by an overall impression of the electorate at large.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 02-07-2020 at 06:33 PM.
  #243  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
This. A million times this.
I grew up near New York City, then lived in freakin’ Berkeley, California....and then a decade in Kansas, and half a decade in Wisconsin (not Madison).
I agree with nearly every GOAL that Sanders espouses....BUT I am keenly aware of the realities of the voting public in this country, that my friends who stayed in New York and California JUST. DON’T. GET.

(This was in reply to asahi’s post:
“ Bernie believes that he can just transform everything, and so do his voters.

If Bernie happens to become president, he's going to have to work with Mitch McConnell -- and he's going to have to convince Republicans that they should be scared of losing their jobs if they don't pass massive tax increases and end private insurance as we know it.

People who hated Hillary and disappointed with Barack Obama just don't get it - they are not the problem. It's their idiot neighbors who are the problem. This country is hopelessly stupid. In the meantime, we're all better off with incremental progress than regression at warp speed.”)
It's funny that you bring this up with respect particularly to California and New York vs. Kansas and Wisconsin. In the 2016 primary, Sanders won the latter states rather handily, I think, and Clinton smashed him in the former two. The "actual voting public" is a flexible thing. Different candidates mean different people turn out. When different people vote, different politics result. Sanders has more appeal in the places that you're saying are the "problem."

I think Democrats, by and large, have a really skewed (and, in my opinion, self-serving and solipsistic) perspective on Sanders' appeal. I have felt this way since 2016 and it sure is true that nothing has happened to convince me otherwise. They look at the people who seem like them, and they say, we're the people who gotta get Trump out of there, and then they think in terms of what kind of candidate will win over someone like them, and they draw a bunch of lines around that hypothetical candidate. They think of themselves as being in opposition to the "idiot neighbors" who are the problem, rather than thinking in terms of how many people they can convince to be like them, for electoral purposes. And they end up in this crazy double bind where they can't do things that have demonstrably broad appeal because they're worried about "centrist" votes, where "centrist" is basically someone just like them but a little bit less so, even though they themselves find those things appealing. Like, you acknowledge you like Sanders' ideas. But you and septimus can't risk him as the candidate, because the idiot neighbors won't vote for him. How do you know? Because they're idiot neighbors. Why are they idiot neighbors? They won't vote for your candidates!

Just because it's something Trump voters like to say doesn't mean that it can't be true that liberals are in their own bubble. The SDMB, as an example of this kind of bubble, is almost cheating, but I offer it all the same. This isn't where you'll find many articulate Sanders defenses, relatively speaking, but there's a fucking LOT you won't find around here.

Democrats seem to suddenly remember that Sanders has the particular appeal I'm talking about when they get angry at him for not campaigning hard enough for Clinton, or when they decry how Bernie Bros. cost Clinton the election by not voting for her. But they forget it again when they talk about electability and beating Trump at all costs. When something happens like Joe Rogan endorsing Bernie Sanders, they don't think "holy shit that's a lot of people I personally think are idiots and want to never meet who I would never have tried to embrace but who will vote for my side in this election." They think "ew gross, idiot neighbors," and they ask Sanders to rebuke Rogan. And then Trump tweets about how Bernie's getting screwed again, and then Sanders supporters vote for Trump, and we all wring our hands.

The thing is, those people exist. The Obama - Trump voters exist. The Sanders - nobody voters exist. The Sanders - Trump voters exist. As wrong as you think they are, as stupid as you think they are, as infuriated as you might be by the fact that they aren't you, as much as it might chafe that they aren't even really Democrats, as capital an offense as you think it should be if they would even consider not voting blue, they're still just like sitting there. And just as soon as an option more in line with their priorities was available, all of this calculus about the voting public would change. If you know that there are people who would vote Sanders, but could vote Trump, and your response is "fuck them for being stupid," that's understandable. But it is rather at odds with "defeat Trump at all costs."
  #244  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:15 PM
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So I've been mulling something over about some posters in this thread, the frothingly anti-Bernsters and similar folks on the twitters and such - the people who rant and rave that Sanders "isn't even a Democrat", "is trying to hijack the party", that his ideas don't represent the Dems or make them look bad and so on, that Bernie cost them the last election (which... they were owed, I guess ? Entitled to win ? WTF ?). Also been mulling how the DNC reflexively turns its own rules into a game of Mornington Crescent whenever it seems likely that he'll win and so on. And the obvious question that springs to mind is : if you hate the lad so much, and you simply can't countenance the very thought of him winning... why d'you let him play in the first place ? If, as you guys are so fond of reminding everyone, he's not even a registered Democrat, why let him run under y'alls banner ?

And the only answer I can come up with is : because you want, nay, need his voters, period. Not him, not their ideas, not their wants, just their votes, the energy he brings. You want those guys to vote for your guy(s), while you have no intention of addressing their problems or countenancing their ideas or even understanding where they even come from (hence the whole "it's a cult of personality" accusation, which... no, it's not ? And that's just you pre-emptively refusing to listen to anything they have to say, probably tinged with class spite as well ?) ; you just know that the Democratic party couldn't dream of beating the Republicans if leftists actually split off and ran independently. You want them in the tent, just not, you know, in the tent.
You want election without representation, as it were.

And in this light, not only does it make sense that leftist voters would resent y'alls fuckery because it's basically a con-job ; but it's a bit disgraceful to go around calling them a "cult of personality" or bratty children wot should shut up and do what they're told, or just generally be cunty at them just because they can see through such cynical chess calculations and refuse to play ball with a marked deck.

Last edited by Kobal2; 02-07-2020 at 09:17 PM.
  #245  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:38 PM
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And the obvious question that springs to mind is : if you hate the lad so much, and you simply can't countenance the very thought of him winning... why d'you let him play in the first place ? If, as you guys are so fond of reminding everyone, he's not even a registered Democrat, why let him run under y'alls banner ?
How would they stop him?
  #246  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:51 PM
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How would they stop him?
I dunno, flat tell him no ? Change the rules so that non-registered Democrats don't get to use DNC venues/aren't invited to D events ? Change the rules so that Jewish men over 75 and a half years of age and whose last name begins with a letter in the second half of the alphabet cannot be presidential nominees of the Democratic Party ?
Granted, I do not know what the specific requirements are to run as a Democrat (that shit probably varies by State too, that's how y'all do ) but I would expect not just any random asshole off the street can ask for his name on a ballot, yes ?

Last edited by Kobal2; 02-07-2020 at 09:52 PM.
  #247  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:16 PM
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https://verminsupreme2020.com/
Vermin Supreme is running again in 2020. So yeah, any random asshole can get on the ballot (I don't think you are an asshole, Vermin, just parroting Kobal2). He isn't a Democrat and I don't know what those requirements are, but Sanders is a very popular lefty politician. I can see anything short of shenanigans that would keep him off the ballot.

We shouldn't try to, either. It's a Republic, folks. Prominent people should not be hamstrung from taking their shot.
  #248  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:38 PM
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I thought Vermin ran as a Libertarian ?
  #249  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:33 PM
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https://verminsupreme2020.com/
Vermin Supreme is running again in 2020. So yeah, any random asshole can get on the ballot (I don't think you are an asshole, Vermin, just parroting Kobal2). He isn't a Democrat and I don't know what those requirements are, but Sanders is a very popular lefty politician. I can see anything short of shenanigans that would keep him off the ballot.

We shouldn't try to, either. It's a Republic, folks. Prominent people should not be hamstrung from taking their shot.
Mr. Supreme (as the NY Times would call him if they wrote about him) is running as a Libertarian, not a Democrat.

If the DNC said to Sanders "sorry, you're not a Democrat," that would have put them in an untenable situation with Sanders supporters who already had (mostly illegitimate) beef with the DNC. The outcries of "rigged" happened when Sanders supporters and even staff just didn't know the rules; imagine how it would be when they were literally told they cannot even run. The Democrats could have made an ethical case for such a decision - he refused to become a Democrat when he was in the Senate again, he spends more time criticizing the Democratic party than the GOP or Russia - but it would be the kind of terrible political choice that would fracture the party forever.
  #250  
Old 02-08-2020, 12:22 AM
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Since my name was mentioned, I get 45 seconds to respond.

I've always said I admired Bernie Sanders. Upthread it was I — not one of the "Bernie Bros" — who pointed out that Bernie was a real activist as a student, chaining himself to Black women. (@ Margin — do you really think that's a lie?)

I certainly consider Bernie an "Honorary Democrat" — far more of a Democrat than Scum like Joe Lieberman ever was. (Or than Bloomberg really, though I also admire Bloomberg.) I do get angry at Bernie Bros with their holier-than-thou "My way or the Highway" attitude.

If Bernie is the nominee, of course I would want him to win. (My promise to vote Sanders would be unimportant ... unless a Doper can figure a way for me to vote legally in a swing state instead of California.)

I had worried about Sanders' electability, but at this point I've decided that I do not know who is most electable. I do believe that a moderate (e.g. Biden, Klobuchar, Bloomberg) would make a better President than a radical (especially an aging radical who's had a heart attack), but if Bernie is a dream-come-true for intelligent young Americans, well, that's important too.

(A moderate in the White House is better even if we want a very progressive agenda! I've explained this before: Presidents need to command the respect of Congress and others; they can't do it all just with executive orders.)

I'd like to see Bloomberg on the ticket so he could spend a few billions pulverizing the wicked GOP. A Sanders-Bloomberg ticket? It might seem a dream ticket ... but I fear the blogs would erupt in flames if both D slots were taken by ethnic Jews: America is focused on its Hatreds these days.

Upthread, when I said I might turn into a Bernie Bro, I was not joking. Warren has fallen; Biden is still too old and inadequate; Klobuchar looks good but is a longshot. If the choice ends up between Sanders and Bloomberg, I think Sanders might be the more electable.

I think my 45 seconds are up.
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